So is it twice a day or three times for prayer?

[Wakas]

Additional question, if you don't mind!
Based on linguistic aspects how many salats are involved in verse 11114 according to your analysis?
Two or three!

The article is very clear, quote

Whilst this verse can be interpreted in multiple ways there is only one way to interpret it that provides us with a time-range for each salat
salat al fajr / salat (of) the dawn/morning
As its name suggests it is done around dawn (morning twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves a proximity of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at morning twilight and ends when any part of the sun first appears above the horizon (i.e. end of morning twilight)
salat al isha / salat (of) the dusk/evening
As its name suggests it is done around dusk (evening twilight). This can correctly be deemed one edge of the daytime and also involves the proximities of the night. Note that twilight is considered part of the night as per Quran.
To clarify this timed-salat begins at evening twilight and ends with dark night (i.e. end of evening twilight).
This satisfies the Arabic plural "zulafan" in 11114 as these two salat time-ranges include morning twilight, evening twilight and a small part of dark night, i.e. 3 proximal parts of the night.

The article also references this article
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

So, if one does not care about consistency, having a time-range, logic, the Arabic then yes they can interpret it in multiple different ways.

The challenge has been set in the article, quote

The Challenge
If you find an error/flaw in the argument above you will be eligible for $250 USD per error/flaw or you may opt for it to be donated to a charity of your choosing. Proof of donation will be provided in that case. Please post any claimed flaws in this thread, thanks. Valid errors/flaws will be determined by the author.

It's been 5 years and nothing so far.

[shukri]

The article is very clear

I think for you the verse 11114 just indicates two salat not three
AND chatGPT has given the wrong views!
Am I right!

ChatGPT's Critique in full
The Arabic word "zulafan" is a plural that can mean "at or near" or "close to," but it does not explicitly specify "three or more" times. Classical Arabic lexicons often interpret "zulafan" as "near" or "close to," which may include the beginning or end of a period, rather than discrete times.
Your interpretation that "zulafan" implies a minimum of three times (morning, evening, and a small part of the night) relies on a specific linguistic and contextual framework. Some scholars might see "zulafan" as indicating proximity rather than multiple distinct times.
Potential flaw The assumption that "zulafan" necessarily indicates multiple distinct times may be overstated; it could be read as emphasizing the importance of prayers near or at the edges.

[shukri]

Additional question, if you don't mind!
Based on linguistic aspects how many salats are involved in verse 11114 according to your analysis?
Two or three!

Quote from your article
11114 ...uphold the salat at both/two edges of the daytime and the proximal parts* of the night...
*Arabic "zulafan" is an Arabic plural meaning 3 or more.

For me, I choose two instead of three

Why?

Because the answer is lies on the analysis of the first two phrases of the verse 11114
11114 Observe the Salat at the two ends of the day ; and 'zulfan min al-layl' (during the near parts of the night / proximal parts of the night) ....
(َأَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ إِنَّ الحَسَنٰتِ يُذهِبنَ السَّيِّـٔاتِ ذٰلِكَ ذِكرىٰ لِلذّٰكِرينَ)

The Analysis
The first phrase i.e. أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ (Observe the salat at the two ends of the day)
We see the first phrase speaks about salat at two ends of the day viz. salat fajr (morning twilight) and salat isha (evening twilight)
Crystal clear and indisputable, right!

*Note
The name for salat isha in the Quran is equivalent to salat maghrib in sunni practice
i.e. the timeframe for the salat isha is equivalent to salat maghrib for sunni.

The second phrase i.e. وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ (and 'zulfan min al-layl&#39.
This is the one which invites various interpretations

(1) Some say it speaks about three salat i.e. two salat at the ends of the day plus one additional salat during the night, a total of three salat.
(2) The others say this phrase links to the description of the subject of the first phrase which is the two salat rather than referring to an additional third salat.
In other words the first phrase and the second phrase link together to define the exact times of the two salat in the first phrase.

How to solve the dispute?

Since chatGPT i see lean towards second opinion
I make mathematical analysis on verse 11114 to find the solution, if possible

*Note
Mathematical analysis is done in the same way given on #Reply 11

We take the dispute phrase i.e. وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ, as our study case
(َأَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ إِنَّ الحَسَنٰتِ يُذهِبنَ السَّيِّـٔاتِ ذٰلِكَ ذِكرىٰ لِلذّٰكِرينَ)

وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ (wa zulfan minal lail) ... gv = 285
AND 285 --> 2+8+5 = 15

AND then we take the twilights' time of two intrinsic salats in phrase "أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ" viz. al-fajr and al-isha

الفَجرِ (al-fajr) ... gv = 314
العِشاءِ (al-isha) ... gv = 403

Then we add-up both gvs
314 + 403 = 717
AND 717 --> 7+1+7 = 15

(Indication Since the add-up gv for words "al-fajr & al-isha i.e. the two twilights' time" and the gv for phrase "وَزُلَفًا مِنَ الَّيلِ" give the same digit of 15, we can conclude that the phrase "wa zulfan minal lail" is the description of twilights' time of "two salat at the ends of the day" mentioned in the first phrase i.e. "أَقِمِ الصَّلوٰةَ طَرَفَىِ النَّهارِ" and NOT meant to describe the emerging of third salat)

Just my take!
AND for further elaboration, please see this link
https//www.quran-islam.org/main_topics/islam/pillars/number_of_salat_(P1200).html (THIRD Word Definitions)

Thank you.
So long!

[Wakas]

You have to understand the limitations of chat gpt.

chat gpt uses the accessible info out that's there, especially the mainstream info.

For example, when i asked it it clearly states "zulafan" is a plural. In Arabic a plural is 3 or more. It's not like English which could mean 2 or more.

If you read the linked to article that I showed you it points out the flaws of the other interpretations.

e.g. in brief

Those who take the plural zulafan to mean one salat. Obvious problem.

Those who take the plural zulafan to mean other salat (not linked to the two/both edges of the day)
The obvious problem here is that the word zulafan means nearness/proximity, well the obvious question to ask is near/proximal to what? The verse tells us! There is no need for any maths.

Another interesting question to ponder over is, is it actually possible to interpret it any other way IF one has to respect consistency, logic and the Arabic?
https//mypercept.co.uk/articles/salat-timings-Quran.html
I haven't found an alternative.

[jkhan]

Additional question, if you don't mind!
Based on linguistic aspects how many salats are involved in verse 11114 according to your analysis?
Two or three!

Quote from your article
11114 ...uphold the salat at both/two edges of the daytime and the proximal parts* of the night...
*Arabic "zulafan" is an Arabic plural meaning 3 or more.

Note
I do not know arabic and you know that

Thank you.

Dear Shukri...

In Quranic tone, there is no ritual PRAYER.. It's all a misconception. 11114 does not talk about the timing of PRAYER. If possible, carefully read with any translation of verses 11112-113 and get the grip of them, then read 11114. Of course not any translation but what I understood of the verse.. here you are.. 11114 But, undertake the state of interactions of the counter-proceedings, yet proximities through the anxieties. Verily, the state of equitability would be seizing the state of wickedness. Such is a consideration for the concentrated ones. ... It is a contextual verse if you are able to comprehend it.. It is very tough to you unless you seek guidance from Allah and step into it...

[shukri]

Dear Shukri...

In Quranic tone, there is no ritual PRAYER.. It's all a misconception. 11114 does not talk about the timing of PRAYER. If possible, carefully read with any translation of verses 11112-113 and get the grip of them, then read 11114. Of course not any translation but what I understood of the verse.. here you are.. 11114 But, undertake the state of interactions of the counter-proceedings, yet proximities through the anxieties. Verily, the state of equitability would be seizing the state of wickedness. Such is a consideration for the concentrated ones. ... It is a contextual verse if you are able to comprehend it.. It is very tough to you unless you seek guidance from Allah and step into it...

A new, fresh translation of verse 11114, I suppose!
But I need some time to digest it for sure.

Thanks for the posting, brother!
God bless you.

[jkhan]

A new, fresh translation of verse 11114, I suppose!
But I need some time to digest it for sure.

Thanks for the posting, brother!
God bless you.

In case you need to know about verses below.. here you are..

1778 State of tenacities out of We already had dispatched before you from our dispatchers. Yet, you would not find a transference for Our state of tenacity.
1778 Undertake the interactions to decline the defiance into the overlapping of the anxieties, while resolving the emergence. Indeed, resolving the emergence is being state of involvement.
1779 Yet, through the anxieties. So, you impact by its additions to you. Probably that your Lord revitalizes your stance, admirable.

Nothing to do with PRAYERS or timing.. all contextual ..

[jkhan]

Formerly I used to pray 5 times a day as Rashad Khalifa did
But now only 3 times a day

Since the Quran do not specify how to observe salat
I just do it without rakaat

1. Although i believe Rashad Khalifa was the God's messenger of the covenant (381)
   But he reminded us to follow the Quran alone, not him per se!

Since, I have time till I step into chapter 05 translation after a month or so as the Divine caused, I just want to reply some of the concerns here..Look brother Shukri you are confused, neither here nor there.. but you are honest as it sounds..

Late Doctor Rashad Khalifa was never a Rasool of Allah. Don't knock the door of Hell while you prefer life to be pleasant.. Let whatever numerical pattern of the Quran or any book remain as they are.. Yes, your latest messenger RK, never told you to follow him, but he claimed he was a messenger and accept that verse 381 is him and it is a direct following. And you claim he is a messenger of Allah as per his claim, and it is nothing but you follow him though he told you not to follow him.. You should always follow what Allah told you by your own effort, and that's the way.. try your level best to understand 381, if not getting try to read my translation but don't depend yet reflect... It is not Rashad Khalifa in 381. I guarantee you that but you need to reflect.. Also chapter 74 has nothing to do with 19, still if you reflect only.. let me share my old translation of chapter 74

741 O you the scrutinizer.

742 Ratify, then avow.

743 By your Lord, then enforce.

744 And replenish you, then cleanse.

745 And the impurity, then forsake.

746 And do not solace overstating.

747 And for the sake of your Lord, then persevere.

748 So when it is inquired through the inquiry.

749 Then that is the time of a difficult day.

7410 Upon the rejectors beyond relief.

7411 Leave it to me by one that I shared exclusiveness.

7412 And I had assigned for him continuous wealth.

7413 And involving children.

7414 And I had accustomed to him habituating.

7415 Subsequently, he aspires that I expand.

7416 Never, that he was to our explications, of assessment.

7417 I will task him uphill.

7418 Verily, he pondered and determined.

7419 So, he had wrestled with how he determined.

7420 Later, he had wrestled with how he determined.

7421 Subsequently, he eased.

7422 Later, he glowered and dismayed.

7423 Subsequently, he retreated and arrogated.

7424 Then he said that this is except a trail of sorcery.

7425 That this is save sayings of the mortal.

7426 I will let him suffer scorching.

7427 And what had acquainted you with what scorching is?

7428 Neither lasting nor leaving.

7429 A steaming to the mortal.

7430 At its prime (thisat) effect (ashara).

7431 And not we assigned mates of the Hell except the earned ones/possessed ones(malika), and not We cited their allocation (iddathHum) except trial/temptation for the ones who rejected; perhaps the ones who were rendered the ordainment convince, or the ones who professed enhance faith….”

I know it is your life and you are accountable for whatever you do in life, but this is a forum and I share what I found to be true... But seek the truth from Allah and seek the guidance too.. I only share knowledge.. scrutinize it, and verify..

Remember .. if you have never read Al Quran, Allah won't punish you, I am absolutely sure of it, unless you never ascribed to Him while you remained an ethical person.. There is nothing more from the Quran than that.. But, after reading the Quran and if you happen to take such and such, then you are seriously accountable and subjected to questions..

You are bothered of chapter 9 missing bismillah.. who knows, that it is chapter 9 or continuation of chapter 8.. Allah never has promised that He would preserve a written Al Quran / The resolution for us in this era.. We are not such people who got the mercy of Allah to have revealed through a living Rasool and listening to Allah's words.. But we are merciful that we are living in a modern era where you can have knowledge to verify almost everything, and we are not living in a blind era.. Most of what Quran explains is well known to all societies now.. But Al Quran is a miraculous book through which you can get convinced towards our Lord... But it is not necessary that we read this book to near Allah.. It was a book for a people or community who were totally lost to preach A-Z... But in this book, many things are there other than ordainments, but as WISDOM and that's marvelous... For sure Allah did not preserve manually any of His books, neither Torah or Quran.. but something is still remaining with us.. We have no right to judge that Torah is wrong or Al Quran is wrong.. Just get the message from them.. The right path is inbuilt for civilized societies, when you follow, you will know it.. It means guidance of Allah has reached this modern era already, but they don't follow it... It is not from Quran we will be questioned and is impossible while the book is in Arabic and Allah questions us why not follow Al Quran.. no way.. Bro we are inbuilt and we are modern.. yes past nations were given extra mercy by Allah through Rasools.. They will get their compensation in either way for that.. But we are not exempted but we won't be questioned through Al Quran.. But read this book it is a mercy who comprehended it..

[shukri]

My brief Comments
(1) Rashad Khalifa said "follow the Quran alone, not him per se!" meaning he is not infallible!

(2) Additional proof that Rashad Khalifa is the messenger in verse 381
381 And God took a covenant from the prophets "For what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you affirming what is with you. You will believe in him and support him." He said "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?" They said "We testify." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness."
--> 3+8+1 = 12

The names of prophets specifically mentioned in verse 337 are
337 And when We took from the prophets their covenant, and from you (Muhammad). And from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary-We took from them a solemn covenant.

Total gv for all the prophets listed down in 337
Muhammad (مُحَمَّدٌ) = 92
Noah (نوحٍ) = 64
Abraham (إِبرٰهيمَ) = 258
Moses (موسىٰ) = 116
Jesus, son of Mary (عيسَى ابنِ مَريَمَ) = 493
--> 92+64+258+116+493 = 1023

If we add-up gv for all the prophets mentioned in verse 337 PLUS gv for "up-coming" messenger of the covenant in verse 381 i.e. Rashad Khalifa "رشاد خليفة" with gv of 1230

We get
--> 1023 +1230 = 2253
AND 2253 --> 2+2+5+3 = 12

(Indication Since the total gv for all the prophets mentioned in verse 337 plus the gv for "upcoming" messenger in verse 381 give the digit of 12, we can assume that RK is a true God's messenger of the covenant in verse 381)

(3) Your translation of verse 7430
7430 At its prime (thisat) effect (ashara)

Verse 7430 is "Muhkamat" verse i.e. straightforward verse
I prefer this verse to be translated as "Over it is nineteen"!

(4) In any decision we take, we are bound to verse 3918!
3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thank you
So long!

[jkhan]

My brief Comments
(1) Rashad Khalifa said "follow the Quran alone, not him per se!" meaning he is not infallible!

(2) Additional proof that Rashad Khalifa is the messenger in verse 381
381 And God took a covenant from the prophets "For what I have given you of the Book and wisdom, then a messenger will come to you affirming what is with you. You will believe in him and support him." He said "Do you testify, and agree to this burden?" They said "We testify." He said "Then bear witness, and I am with you bearing witness."
--> 3+8+1 = 12

The names of prophets specifically mentioned in verse 337 are
337 And when We took from the prophets their covenant, and from you (Muhammad). And from Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and Jesus, son of Mary-We took from them a solemn covenant.

Total gv for all the prophets listed down in 337
Muhammad (مُحَمَّدٌ) = 92
Noah (نوحٍ) = 64
Abraham (إِبرٰهيمَ) = 258
Moses (موسىٰ) = 116
Jesus, son of Mary (عيسَى ابنِ مَريَمَ) = 493
--> 92+64+258+116+493 = 1023

If we add-up gv for all the prophets mentioned in verse 337 PLUS gv for "in-coming" messenger of the covenant in verse 381 i.e. Rashad Khalifa "رشاد خليفة" with gv of 1230

We get
--> 1023 +1230 = 2253
AND 2253 --> 2+2+5+3 = 12

(Indication Since the total gv for all the prophets mentioned in verse 337 plus the gv for "incoming" messenger in verse 381 give the digit of 12, we can assume that RK is a true God's messenger of the covenant in verse 381)

(3) Your translation of verse 7430
7430 At its prime (thisat) effect (ashara)

Verse 7430 is "Muhkamat" verse i.e. straightforward verse
I prefer this verse to be translated as "Over it is nineteen"!

(4) In any decision we take, we are bound to verse 3918!
3918 They are the ones who examine all words, then follow the best. These are the ones whom God has guided; these are the ones who possess intelligence.

Thank you
So long!

It's okay. Compelling no one will reveal the truth; rather, every individual should realize the truth. However, it won't be realized unless everyone exerts effort to unearth the truth and is convinced. Keep researching and maintain an unbiased mindset for that.

378 And, verily among them a definite section, twisting their eloquence concerning the ordainment so that you reckon it, through the ordainment, while it is not, through the ordainment. But they state, ‘It is from the presence of the Divine.’ But, it is not from the presence of the Divine. Still, they state, about the Divine, the manipulations, yet they realize themselves.
379 As for a mortal, it was not that the Divine render him—the ordainment, and the judgment, and the eminence, later he states as for the humanity, ‘You be dependents as for me in comparison to the Divine, and yet, you be legislators through what you reveal yourself of the ordainment and through what you study yourselves.’
380 Yet he commands you not, that you take the state of the executors, and the legislators, as dignitaries. Would he order you through the rejection, once that, you are assenting ones?
381 Moreover, when the Divine obtained the covenant of the illuminated ones, ‘As for what I have rendered you of ordainment and wisdom—later, effected to you a confirming dispatcher, as for what was with you, so that you would have concurred by it, thus in order you could have defended it.’ He stated, ‘Have you relieved yourselves, and have you taken yourselves, according to such of that, of my task?’ They stated, ‘We have relieved.’ He stated, ‘Then, testify you while I am along with you, among the testified ones.’
382 So, whoever constricted, after that, then such are those, they are the apostate ones.

Ask yourself,
1... When did those prophets support Rashad Khalifa?
2.... So you want to believe his dream?
3... Did Allah state that these prophets would support a rasool after their death? What support after all? yeah, I am serious on anyone who claim this.. What support rendered to this Rashad Khalifa by these great Nabis..?
4... Imagine, read well, what did Rashad Khalifa CONFIRM from each NABI?
5... If he confirmed, why you not pray what he confirmed as it was 5 times prayer? Why reject the confirmation he made whatever he made..?
6... Do we have a confirmed Quran of its verses after Rashad Khalifa or do we have a confirmed meaning after Rashad Khalifa?
7.. If he confirmed for the sake of argument, what did he confirm for rest of the Nabi? did he confirm Torah he is exempted from the covenant?

I wonder why people get blinded when attached with emotions..

[shukri]

Ask yourself,
1... When did those prophets support Rashad Khalifa?
2.... So you want to believe his dream?
3... Did Allah state that these prophets would support a rasool after their death? What support after all? yeah, I am serious on anyone who claim this.. What support rendered to this Rashad Khalifa by these great Nabis..?
4... Imagine, read well, what did Rashad Khalifa CONFIRM from each NABI?
5... If he confirmed, why you not pray what he confirmed as it was 5 times prayer? Why reject the confirmation he made whatever he made..?
6... Do we have a confirmed Quran of its verses after Rashad Khalifa or do we have a confirmed meaning after Rashad Khalifa?
7.. If he confirmed for the sake of argument, what did he confirm for rest of the Nabi? did he confirm Torah he is exempted from the covenant?

My point of view on most of your questions is given in this thread
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611752.0
There is no more to add!

For question five (5), please read all my postings from the very beginning!
The argument is there!

About verse 7430
Is this verse Muhkamat or Mutashabihat?
Your translation is very weird!

7430 At its prime (thisat) effect (ashara)
Instead of;
7430 Over it is nineteen

Thank you.

[jkhan]

My point of view on most of your questions is given in this thread
https//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9611752.0
There is no more to add!

For question five (5), please read all my postings from the very beginning!
The argument is there!

About verse 7430
Is this verse Muhkamat or Mutashabihat?
Your translation is very weird!

7430 At its prime (thisat) effect (ashara)
Instead of;
7430 Over it is nineteen

Thank you.

I have no idea what your answers were to my questions. Whatever they were, let them be..

37 He is the one who originated upon you the ordainment, through its explications, a state of judgment—they nurture the ordainment, yet progressions are a state of relativity. So, as for the ones who are concerned about their thoughts swerving, then abide by whatever is related, out of it, deserving the temptation, even deserving its sources. While not revealing its sources, except the Divine. But the deep-rooted ones concerning the revelation, state, ‘We concurred concerning it—each from our Lord’s presence.’ While not considering, except the intellects’ core.

Don't confuse the verse.. There is no such thing in ayas through which Allah won't guide with if you seek.. All ayas are meant for the concurred ones to reflect. It is there for the conscientized ones.. Get the verse 37 right.. there is nothing called two types of verses.. lol.. Is SALAH muhkhamat or other as you have understood? If it is prayer it has to be ... but why confusion then? Look.. Some Verses are direct and some verses you need to rely on and compare that's it.. on that note, 7430 has nothing to rely on and compare it is a direct verse. But problem is taken then wrong meaning to it..like salah, zakat haj Fasting etc.. derailed.. nothing to rely on and nothing to compare..

[good_logic]

Peace All.
Here is the issue for every individual to ponder

Some He guided, while others are committed to straying. They have taken the devils as their masters, instead of God, yet they believe that they are guided.
فَريقًا هَدىٰ وَفَريقًا حَقَّ عَلَيهِمُ الضَّلٰلَةُ إِنَّهُمُ اتَّخَذُوا الشَّيٰطينَ أَولِياءَ مِن دونِ اللَّهِ وَيَحسَبونَ أَنَّهُم مُهتَدونَ

Guidance is up to GOD Alone , If one is guided, they are extremely blessed and no one can take away their guidance except the one who gives it.

The problem I see is that only GOD judges and knows those who deserve His guidance. Those trying to pretend they know who is not guided are just guessing or thinking they have the true knowledge.

Just because someone opposes our views/interpretations, does not mean they are not guided .
In fact, if they are using their faculties and sincere in trying to seek the truth of things, they are doing the right thing. Each is only accountable for themselves and answerable for the use of their own eyes, ears and brain.
Otherwise what is the use of each one having their own test and faculties?

So let us give more thoughts to ponder on

Say, "My Lord advocates justice, and to stand devoted to Him alone at every place of service to Him. You shall devote your Deen absolutely to Him alone. Just as He initiated you, you will ultimately go back to Him."
قُل أَمَرَ رَبّى بِالقِسطِ وَأَقيموا وُجوهَكُم عِندَ كُلِّ مَسجِدٍ وَادعوهُ مُخلِصينَ لَهُ الدّينَ كَما بَدَأَكُم تَعودونَ

Say, "My Lord prohibits only evil deeds, be they obvious or hidden, and sins, and unjustifiable aggression, and to set up beside God powerless idols, and to say about God what you do not know."
قُل إِنَّما حَرَّمَ رَبِّىَ الفَوٰحِشَ ما ظَهَرَ مِنها وَما بَطَنَ وَالإِثمَ وَالبَغىَ بِغَيرِ الحَقِّ وَأَن تُشرِكوا بِاللَّهِ ما لَم يُنَزِّل بِهِ سُلطٰنًا وَأَن تَقولوا عَلَى اللَّهِ ما لا تَعلَمونَ

Or has GOD forbidden views that are on a journey of improvement and have different opinions?

O children of Adam, when messengers come to you from among you- Yes human messengers!-, and recite My revelations to you, those who take heed and lead a righteous life, will have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
يٰبَنى ءادَمَ إِمّا يَأتِيَنَّكُم رُسُلٌ مِنكُم يَقُصّونَ عَلَيكُم ءايٰتى فَمَنِ اتَّقىٰ وَأَصلَحَ فَلا خَوفٌ عَلَيهِم وَلا هُم يَحزَنونَ
As for those who reject our revelations, and are too arrogant to uphold them, they have incurred Hell, wherein they abide forever.
وَالَّذينَ كَذَّبوا بِـٔايٰتِنا وَاستَكبَروا عَنها أُولٰئِكَ أَصحٰبُ النّارِ هُم فيها خٰلِدونَ

Who is more evil than those who invent lies about God, or reject His revelations? These will get their share, in accordance with the scripture, then, when our messengers come to terminate their lives- Thiese are Angel messengers-, they will say, "Where are the idols you used to implore beside God?" They will say, "They have abandoned us." They will bear witness against themselves that they were disbelievers.
فَمَن أَظلَمُ مِمَّنِ افتَرىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا أَو كَذَّبَ بِـٔايٰتِهِ أُولٰئِكَ يَنالُهُم نَصيبُهُم مِنَ الكِتٰبِ حَتّىٰ إِذا جاءَتهُم رُسُلُنا يَتَوَفَّونَهُم قالوا أَينَ ما كُنتُم تَدعونَ مِن دونِ اللَّهِ قالوا ضَلّوا عَنّا وَشَهِدوا عَلىٰ أَنفُسِهِم أَنَّهُم كانوا كٰفِرينَ

So is it not right to use our own faculties and be only accountable for them or follow somebody else s faculties/views/interpretations - who have not been given any role by GOD- ?

Even following true messengers own views that are private and their own opinions can be idol worship.

Brother jkhan, save your own neck first. Be easy on your brothers and sisters and let them take or leave your opinions like we should all do so.
Brother shukri, you are right to follow your own faculties and use your own search/conclusions. That is what we are all accountable for at GOD s.
As for the truth, each should seek GOD Alone and His guidance for their own truth.
Our common goal is to follow the straight path and live peacefully as friends of one big human community.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Don't worry big brother GL..
I am not on a secret mission to take away our brother Shukri from your kind of faith.. Your tone is well echoed and any neutral reader can grip it..You accept Rashad Khalifa was a messenger of Allah so does brother Shukri... So showed your biasedbess in clear words.. Be honest.. You don't need company in finding truth.. Well since you both accept RK was Messenger, it means you directly pointing fingers at others who don't accept RK as messenger as REJECTORS.. Don't you? Cus those who rejects Messengers of Allah is apostates.. Our basic acceptance is concurring all Messengers and not show any differences.... So, whether you state or not, technically those who don't accept RK as messenger is Rejectors... So.. There is conundrum to be solved here.. That is to say who is right and who is wrong.. For me he was never a Messenger and no messengers after Mohamed and every Messenger was Nabi.. And indeed RK taught you that every Nabi was messenger but not Messenger.. Wow.. So easy..
Did RK confirm Torah according to 381? So let's solve.. Don't be biased.. You know very well that I only support evidenced based truth.. I don't want to remain in falsehood.. So if you are on right track, clear to us so that we can also accept like you that RK was a messenger.. Don't you like truth be spread as you feel on that side..

Don't worry.. I never compelled Shukri.. Go read again my comments.. And not even spoke in biasedness..
Ever Allah commands to invite people towardsTRUTH..SO I am only in that mission.. I don't care whoever rejects it.. Cus Quran itself is rejected by billions of people and billions of people not at concur in the Divine and billions of them don't have ethics... You think I bother to change them.. Lol.. This is a forum.. And I found this brother Shukri to be very keen person in seeking truth by his tone.. So I gave my understanding to him as invitation.. I invited him as Allah commands.. How to invite people of we don't know the truth.. You stance is like let all of us use faculties even if it is right or wrong.. Knowledge is to be sought by self or from others.. What was the reason Mosa went all the way to a master.. What is the point of this forum if we can't share out understanding.. I need told accept me.. Reflect..
While you directly claim by accepting RK as messenger of Allah that we are rejectors of Allah's messengers.. Technically thats what happens..You think we are fond of rejecting Messengers..Which messenger that was mentioned it not mentuoned we reject? Tell us.. So why we reject an imposter like him.. Taje it is leave.. No messengers after Mohamed.. And every messenger was chosen from Nabis.. You failed to grasp it..

HOW CAN A MERE HUMAN CONFIRM ALLAH'S BOOK?

[shukri]

offtopic

This thread is temporarily closed!
Please take a break! police

[good_logic]

Peace jkhan.
GOD s book is for humans. All those who follow GOD s scripture/ways are confirming His book.
Or do you expect Angels to bring you GOD s book /confirm it for you?

Like I said, you search and stay with your truth , others will do the same. Is this not what I am saying all along?
I am calling you brother, I do not know the guided from the strayer. Only my Lord knows the innermost of His servants.
All those who follow GOD and keep on the straight path are the privileged /blessed.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

[jkhan]

Peace jkhan.
GOD s book is for humans. All those who follow GOD s scripture/ways are confirming His book.
Or do you expect Angels to bring you GOD s book /confirm it for you?

Like I said, you search and stay with your truth , others will do the same. Is this not what I am saying all along?
I am calling you brother, I do not know the guided from the strayer. Only my Lord knows the innermost of His servants.
All those who follow GOD and keep on the straight path are the privileged /blessed.
GOD bless you brother.
Peace.

You have a religion, bro, and that's Rashad Khalifa-based, because he's your confirmation messenger. You don't realize it..

Allah/The Divine revealed all His communications (specific revelation meant for guidance of people) through Malak Messenger.. And that Malak Messenger was ONE... but Allah never CONFIRED using the same Malak Messenger, once the revelations are complete. Thus Allah used a different Malak Messenger to confirm THROUGH the human Messenger... for example when Ibrahim's revelations are complete through Malak Messenger who used to reveal, then sent the CONFIRMING Messenger to whatever existed with Ibrahim, same with all Prophets who got revelations, they were receiving through only one Malak Messenger for life time, but not that same Malak Messenger was to CONFIRM the completed readable book. But it was another Malak Messenger who was specifically assigned to CONFIRM whatever Allah gave those prophets as message, so they were commanded to support that Malak Messenger while the confirmation process was on.. Once it is confirmed then it is finalized and can be revealed to people as books.. and nothing will be revealed after that.. After a Malak Messenger confirmed to Human Messenger and whatever human messenger received and if still people constricted then they are apostates.. read 382..

That's the verse 381 was all about.. How can Rashad Khalifa CONFIRM Quran? based on what? Was his job to remove two verses and confirm? or was his job to explain the Quran and claim he was a messenger? Is that confirmation? What support RK got from rest of the prophets to remove two verses from Quran alone? Why did he not confirm Torah? Why did he not confirm Injeel, did he even know where Injeel is to confirm? use logic, bro good logic.. I am not your enemy, nor do I want to change your stance.. All I ask is to use your intellect by leaving prejudice. with biasedness, you definitely hold Satan in your side.. You say you use your faculties, but unfortunately with biasedness for which there is no proof.. Just read 381 and ask yourself, what has Rashad Khalifa has done with such and such prophets to CONFIRM as the messenger of the covenant. Well, your RKs translation of 381 and ask questions to yourself. What was the ROLE of RK in it? How did Ibrahim support RK to CONFIRM? confirmed what man? Don't you get a simple logic? what nonsense RK confirmed? Or do you want to say RK confirmed the numeric from the Quran? Is that the confirmation of what Allah is referring to in 381? So where is the numeric confirmation of Torah from RK?
okay let's read 382.. I took someone's translation ...

382 Sahih International And whoever turned away after that - they were the defiantly disobedient.

Now, let us know, what does it talk about following 381? Is it if people reject numrics which RK discovered or RK translation? what is in fact 'whoever turned away AFTER that' means? let us know what RK confirmed? Did RK take support from those great prophets to remove two verses (be it from Quran or not)? RK took Hadith support to remove two verses and his numeric? so where is the support of prophets to RK.. ? what else RK has done? His numerics and his translation? So you believe Nuh, Ibrahim Musa Isa and Mohamed supported RK for his English translation? So is that the translation all people has to take since it is CONFIRMATION from the Messenger of Covenant supported by great prophets? Lol &
wake up if you can... you will definitely remember my advice on the day of judgment if you continue in this way..

Note everyone in my opinion (not necessarily be taken as fact) that Revealing Malak Messenger was Gibreal while CONFIRMATION Malak Messenger was Michael.. that's why Allah specifically states whoever enemy to Gibreal and Michael in verse 298.... what enmity we have with Gibreal and Michael? Do we even know them to have enmity? Well enmity is cus they were the Malak messengers who revealed and confirmed respectively.. thus we become enemies of them if we don't agree with revelations came through them and confirmed..

[jkhan]

@ everyone..

just watch below video
https//youtu.be/fqVGrWU3pJA?si=apS1D8cCICw7mXpS
when you watch, watch complete, but specifically pay attention from clip timing 540 onwards..

second video

https//youtu.be/QwNnjd-QB8E?si=NcaHnoPK8EZV_-Ze

So, he claimed his translation is the translation of Allah.

So it is very obvious by his own words and own tongue that the CONFIRMATION he made was a TRANSLATION of Quran by being the Messenger of the covenant.. Unfortunately, hard to say by words, still worth saying, he was such a damn liar.. His translations prove it. Only the people who understood Al Quran in its pristine form would get how big a liar he was..

God's Translation rotfl So, guys never research.. just read RK translation, cus it is God's translation.. rotfl

[good_logic]

Peace jkhan.
We cannot continue going off topic here.
This thread is a different subject. If you want to discuss another subject open a new thread.
Or there are other threads about RK in the forum ,use one of them.

GOD bless you.
Peace

[shukri]

@Euphoric

The timings were specifically only for the Muminin
Q4:103 Indeed, al-Salat is on the MUMININ prescribed (at) fixed times.
There are no times prescribed for the Muslims.

What is the difference between "mukmin" and "muslim"?
Why is al-salat at prescribed times mentioned in verse 4:103 only for "mukminin"?
Any user input is welcome!

Thanks.