Where's the Tablet?
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peace be upon you natu, all,
the word in question, "lawhin", root
Lam-Waw-Ha (as in Ha in hajj) = a thing shone/gleam/glistened/flashed, intensely white, it lit up what surrounds it, to become apparent, to alter/scorch/heat/burn/blacken, alter by heat, to thirst, to make a sign, an item/tool used to make a sign, a look/glance, any broad/wide thin thing such as a board/plank of wood/bone/tablet, the air/atmosphere.lawh n.m. (pl. alwah)
7145, 7150, 7154, 5413, 8522From the usage of 'lawh' it seems to be physically present in this world in the form of an inscribed sheet/tablet(s). If taken with 159, its implication is preservation once "sent down", i.e. here in this world. Furthermore, logic suggests beyond reasonable doubt that al quran must be preserved in this world, because it is the last divine writ, thus is meant to last until the end of time.
The next interesting question to ask oneself is what constitutes preservation? My personal view is that the question "is the original message/text still extractable?" overides all others. Thus, removal of tashkeel/diacritical/vowel marking is acceptable, because the original text/message is still extractable. Furthermore, an addition of verses does not nullify preservation, because the original text/message is still extractable. A deletion nulifies the promise, not an addition.lawwah n.m. (adj.)
7429Wakas
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Peace Waqas, all.
Without actually having had a look at the lexicons, I was thinking that yeah, if its a tablet it must be preseverved. I'm just getting this gut feeling that some time soon, (seen as people are trying to work on the Quran), the God's is going to reveal to us exactly where this tablet is, and all our accurate predictions/misconceptions will be proven wrong or right.
Waqas, your points regarding how the Qurahn has been preserved is exactly how I think, I'm just wondering whether God is about to make it easier for us in what we are trying to do. Like our man Layth, possibly once he is through, God may reveal this tablet to us to show exactly where we went right and where we went wrong! - Like whether the missing bismillah is supposed to be there or not, becuase nobody is 100% sure on that one.
I used to get the idea that this tablet might actually be in the Kaba of Arabia, but having seen all the corruption by the Arab's, i doubt it's going to be found in there, there might still be a good chance of it though.
Please take a look at the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3222
I think that somehow we people other than the 'special' arab's need to get access to the inside of the Kaba of arabia, so that we can see the truth, and find the tablet if indeed it is in there.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace.
The reason I'm thinking that it is a specific physical tablet is that it says this is preserved in 'a' tablet. Now I understand Waqas' point that it has been preserved, but things are being wrapped round it, so its just a matter of remving the extra stuff, but then again, if it carries on like this, we would always be unsue as to whether this is still some left there to remove, or if something genuine has been removed. Thats what makes me think that some time soon, God will show us this tablet which possibly Muhammad wrote himself, carbon datin will show that it really was that old! What do you gouy's think?
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace all,
Moses and his people were told to uphold the teachings wrote on the tablets strongly (7145). The physical support doesn't matter
?Take what We have given you with strength, and listen.? (293)
?Take what We have given you with strength and remember what is in it that you may be righteous.? (7171)
80-11-17 could bring an additionnal information to 8522-23
- No, this is but a reminder.
- For whoever wills to remember.
- In records which are honourable.
- Raised and pure.
- By the hands of scribes.
- Honourable and righteous.
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Peace all.
I've been reading a book called 'The Choice' by Ahmad Deedat, and it appears that his understanding of the tablet is that it is a fixed source from which it is delivered to the world, and that fixed source is with God. But to be honest, Idon't understand the significance of a tablet (which is always understood to be something physical elsewhere in the Quran), which is with God, I think it mames more sense to have something preserved and within our reach, like the mummified body of pharoah, as promised in the Quran. Is it becuase of Ahmad Dedat that the generally idea is that it is something with God?, or is it becuase of other verses in the Quran, I don't understand why people don't understand it as something physicsal. Or maybe my understading is faltering lol
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Peace Natu,
Your view may be correct that the 'Quran' is recorded somewhere on a tablet.
We know for a fact the Moses received the commands from the Almight on a tablet (which he broke into peices when he saw his people worshipping the calf, then gathered it afterwards).
If we want to talk archeology, there are a few things we are yet unable to locate
- Noah's ark (mentioned in the Scripture that it has remained as a sign)
- Lot's city (again, mentioned in the Scripture. My belief is this is Petra)
- The Torah (written on tablets and then broken by Moses. Later carried in what became known by Jews as 'the ark of the covenant')
- Mohammed's copy of the Scripture (we know he penned it with his hand, but we do not know what happened to it).
- The metal closure that Zul Qarnain made in the East (considered a dam, either against water or against lava...my guess is the latter).
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Peace Natu,
Your view may be correct that the 'Quran' is recorded somewhere on a tablet.
We know for a fact the Moses received the commands from the Almight on a tablet (which he broke into peices when he saw his people worshipping the calf, then gathered it afterwards).
If we want to talk archeology, there are a few things we are yet unable to locate
- Noah's ark (mentioned in the Scripture that it has remained as a sign)
- Lot's city (again, mentioned in the Scripture. My belief is this is Petra)
- The Torah (written on tablets and then broken by Moses. Later carried in what became known by Jews as 'the ark of the covenant')
- Mohammed's copy of the Scripture (we know he penned it with his hand, but we do not know what happened to it).
- The metal closure that Zul Qarnain made in the East (considered a dam, either against water or against lava...my guess is the latter).
Peace all,
Are these 'relics' important in any way? (Except the original Qur'an of course, that's VERY important). Just a thought, given that people sometimes idolize 'relics' (Shroud of Turin, beard of the Messenger, Buddha's tooth, etc.).
I've been reading Umberto Eco's 'Baudolino' and in that novel he portrayed a band of medieval swindlers who manufactures fake Christian relics ('fragment of the cross', 'holy grail', 'spear that pierces Christ's side') for profit.
Just a thought.
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Are these 'relics' important in any way? (Except the original Qur'an of course, that's VERY important). Just a thought, given that people sometimes idolize 'relics' (Shroud of Turin, beard of the Messenger, Buddha's tooth, etc.).
The same should apply to quran, don't you think?.. just as the things Layth mentioned?
Peace
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Peace.
If we want to talk archeology, there are a few things we are yet unable to locate
I would say that these are things that were are CURRENTLY unable to locate, but we must try at least to find the tablet, which I believe is the one the Muhammad wrote on by hand. The way I see it, I dont think God would have it written down and kept that tablet himself, and then inspired Muhammad to write down that tablet, effectively making a photocopy of it. There would be no point God having the master copy because it would be preserved in a tablet in access to him, but not to us, which is the whole point of the Quran. To me, it appears that the first time it was written down was when Muhammad was inspired to write it down, not written as the tablet first, and then read out by God (inspired) to Muhammad, who then wrote it down and made a second tablet. I believe that the first tablet is what Muhammad wrote down, because thered be no need for God to keep the tablet for himself, he knows what he says anyway.
Are these 'relics' important in any way? (Except the original Qur'an of course, that's VERY important). Just a thought, given that people sometimes idolize 'relics' (Shroud of Turin, beard of the Messenger, Buddha's tooth, etc.).
The same should apply to quran, don't you think?.. just as the things Layth mentioned?
We should consider them proofs of the truth of the reading, things that over time humans have forgotten the location of, though if God says that they are there, it means that currently we just dont know where they are. My thoughts are that at this moment in time we are in need of that tablet.
Just a thought, given that people sometimes idolize 'relics' (Shroud of Turin, beard of the Messenger, Buddha's tooth, etc.).
Some things Ive always wanted to see are the Buddhas earlobes, were they really that big and fat as shown in his statues? roll
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Peace brother Wakas,
The next interesting question to ask oneself is what constitutes preservation? My personal view is that the question "is the original message/text still extractable?" overides all others. Thus, removal of tashkeel/diacritical/vowel marking is acceptable, because the original text/message is still extractable. Furthermore, an addition of verses does not nullify preservation, because the original text/message is still extractable. A deletion nulifies the promise, not an addition.
I agree about tashkeel/vocalization marks being a non-issue because we can all read Arabic texts such as Arabic newspapers, etc. that are completely devoid of vocalization marks without any problems. So copies of the great reading without vocalization marks are equally readable. In fact, the early text was without vocalization marks. Those were only added in later manuscripts.
159 is talking about preservation of "thikr"/reminder/rememberance. Thus "additions" nullify preservation as much as substractions (if not more). This is for the simple reason that additions would remind of the wrong things. This is confirmed by 4141-42. I think that 159 can be understood in the light of 4141-42.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Natu,
We should consider them proofs of the truth of the reading, things that over time humans have forgotten the location of, though if God says that they are there, it means that currently we just don?t know where they are. My thoughts are that at this moment in time we are in need of that tablet.
How would the tablets be proof of the truth of the reading? The God clearly tells us the proof that the reading is from The God in 482. There is nothing in 482 or anywhere else about "tablets" being proofs of the truth of the great reading. What if we find tablets dating from the time of the prophet tomorrow? How do you know if their content is the truth? I hope that you can see that just because they are "tablets" this doesn't make them "truth".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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Peace brother Natu,
We should consider them proofs of the truth of the reading, things that over time humans have forgotten the location of, though if God says that they are there, it means that currently we just dont know where they are. My thoughts are that at this moment in time we are in need of that tablet.
How would the tablets be proof of the truth of the reading? The God clearly tells us the proof that the reading is from The God in 482. There is nothing in 482 or anywhere else about "tablets" being proofs of the truth of the great reading. What if we find tablets dating from the time of the prophet tomorrow? How do you know if their content is the truth? I hope that you can see that just because they are "tablets" this doesn't make them "truth".
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
Peace Ayman.
I guess your right ayman in saying that it would be proof of the reading, however, I'm sure if we found things like Noah's ark and carbon dated them or something, it would make people think. Perhaps they're not proofs, but they will make people think. They won't be 'miracles', they will be 'signs'. With regards to tablets being found, even if we do find a tablet tomorrow, and carbon dating shows that it is old, we still can't be sure that that is the tablet that has been preserved, I just think that it will give us a firmer base to work from apart from the 'Golden Quran' as it is called, and Layth's work could possibly become easier. (His article 'Which Quran?). So I'm not saying they will be proofs or miracles, i'm just saying that it would be goo to go out looking for the tablet, instead of assuming it is with God.
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Natu,
...however, I'm sure if we found things like Noah's ark and carbon dated them or something, it would make people think. Perhaps they're not proofs, but they will make people think. They won't be 'miracles', they will be 'signs'.
I hope these verses help. )
Chapter 26
- T?.S.M
- These are the signs of the Scripture of clarity.
- Perhaps you are grieving yourself that they do not become believers.
- If We wish, We could send down for them from the heavens a sign, to which they would bend their necks in humility.
- And not a reminder comes to them from the Almighty, except that they turn away from it.
Peace
