Scrutinizing verse (33:59)
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Dear Layth ,
Thank you for reading my post.
Are you planning to rehearse the translation of this verse with progressive muslims and others.
Since after all, in a second though the word - Adna - would mean less in arabic lang, in statistical means .
As you said I am gaining less or low salary .. in arabic we use the word adna - , or else for results of or with low perentage or possibilities we use the word adna ..
..etc.In addition, this for sure will be the proof that Moslem women dressing in Moslem world today and during the many decades back is a copy of other nations dress esp. Jahelliyah ,Jews and christians and has nothing to do with real submittors dress, besides they are not per the demand of the Lord.
May God bless you,
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Salaam Noor,
Ahlan / welcome )
Thank for your informative post.
Since after all, in a second though the word - Adna - would mean less in arabic lang, in statistical means .
As you said I am gaining less or low salary .. in arabic we use the word adna - , or else for results of or with low perentage or possibilities we use the word adna ..
..etc.I think adna, yudnee, dana, daniya, alddunya have a common notion
alssamaa alddunya / the lowest universe (841)
alAAudwati alddunya / the near side (842)
Wadaniyatan AAalayhim thilaluha / 1And the shade is close upon them, and the fruit is hanging low within reach. (7614)Regards
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Salam Noor,
I disagree with your understanding for the following reasons
- Verse 3360-61 is giving the ?hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies? an ultimatum that if they annoy the believing women, then they can expect hostility from the prophet, including expulsion (or death?). How can the hypocrites be expected to heed the warning if they can?t distinguish between believers and non-believers?
3360-61 (free-minds trans.)
"If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.
They are cursed wherever they are found, and they are taken and killed in numbers."- Verse 3359 mentions for the believing women to draw/let down their jilbabs (cloaks?) about them. Doesn?t this seem to be saying more modest clothes, not less? If dressing to fit in meant wearing more modest clothes, then this verse may make sense only if those addressed (the hypocrites/ those with disease in their hearts/ those who spread lies) are the ?people of the book? (i.e. Nazarenes and Jews). However, it still would not resolve 3360-61.
If those addressed are the pagans, then dressing more modestly (as the verse seems to imply) would not be fitting in, but the opposite. However, if the verse is addressed to both the pagans and the ?people of the book?, then in accordance with 3359 and 3360-61, it seems most logical that
a) Believing women are to distinguish themselves so that they are known as believers by drawing/letting down their jilbabs about them
b) An open warning is issued to the hypocrites etc.. that they have no excuse to harass believing women since they should be distinguishableLastly, from the context of Sura 33, it is clear that the Prophet and the Believers had been victorious in battle. It appears from the verses that they were residing in Yathrib in a position of power at this time. Thus, there is no need for the believing women to adopt the same dress (conceal themselves) as the nonbelievers, which puts verses 3359-61 in context.
peace
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Dear David,
Though I have not understood your point of view, and even I have not seen what is you are aiming at.
Therefore, I have three questions for your good self
What is the need of the request for the dressing fit for believing women, Is it to identify them or to make them less identified ?
Who are those that are harming the believing women?
How can a dress be a secure for the believing women?
Please reply,peace,
Noor -
Dear Noor, peace,
I didn?t realize my writing was so unintelligible.
Thanks for the questions, and here are my responses
What is the need of the request for the dressing fit for believing women, Is it to identify them or to make them less identified ?
Their dress is such that they are known as believing women and serves the purpose of not attracting unwanted sexual attention.
Who are those that are harming the believing women?
It appears that those that are harming the believing women, based on 3360, are the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts.
?...the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city...? 3360
I understand the hypocrites to be those who joined ?Islam? for ulterior motives (i.e. for political ends) and possibly the people of the book who joined falsely into a pact with the Muslims?though I?m not quite sure about the latter.
?Those with disease in their hearts? I believe refers to those who had joined Islam and were weak of faith. It may also refer to the people of the book who were in Yathrib and may have been harassing the Muslims.How can a dress be a secure for the believing women?
Dress can be a security for the believing women because it serves the purpose of not attracting unwanted sexual attention.
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I also have some questions
Verse 3359 seems to be indicating a change in dress.Who do you believe are those that are harming the women?
If, as you suggest, the verse is asking the women to dress in such a manner that they are not identified as believers (by fitting in), then, whose style of dress are they adopting?
Why were the believers dressing different from those that would harm them in the first place?
Looking forward to your response,
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Dear Noor, peace,
I also have some questions
Verse 3359 seems to be indicating a change in dress.Who do you believe are those that are harming the women?
I will reply , just open your mind this time with no offence what soever !
Reply
Those are the either the disbelievers or the hypocrites as you said.
For the belieievng women to dress in a different code will make them more identified by that dress and thus are exposed to harm, UNLEss those who harm them are their husbands.
But if the dress was copied from the women in that society , they will be less identified and thus will escape harm.If, as you suggest, the verse is asking the women to dress in such a manner that they are not identified as believers (by fitting in), then, whose style of dress are they adopting?
The reply is given above. in 1. There is no indication from the verse that dressing as such so they will be identified as believers. if that is true , it means those who harm the women in general are the husbands of the believers , and with that dress , they will escape the harm of their husbands, whilst being more identified by their husbands!!
Why were the believers dressing different from those that would harm them in the first place?
Because they were a free minded people. Their main concern was the truth. If they were poor people without principles, they would did not succeed the mission! simple as that.
Only principles make you hard against the disbelievers. Prophet Mohm'd would not be able to succeed with his mission if they were not people with principles among them.
people with principles knows well that dress is not of any importance ,nor a sign for believing or disbeleiving.Hope this is clear.
God bless
peace -
For the belieievng women to dress in a different code will make them more identified by that dress and thus are exposed to harm, UNLEss those who harm them are their husbands.
But if the dress was copied from the women in that society , they will be less identified and thus will escape harm.I don't think so because it is in contrast with what is said in 4825
- They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and barred your donations from reaching their destination. And there had been believing men and women whom you did not know, and you may have hurt them, and on whose account you would have committed a sin unknowingly. God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become separated, We would then have punished those of them who rejected with a painful retribution.
2431 brings an additional information to 3359
2431 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze, and guard their modesty. That they should not display their beauty and ornament beyond what is decently and spontaneously apparent in daily lives. Hence, let them cover their bosoms with their sash (Dupatta). And let them not display their beauty in the presence of anyone other than their husbands or fathers or husbands? fathers, or their sons or their husbands? sons, or their brothers, or their brothers? sons or sisters? sons, or their womenfolk, or their close dependents and attendants free of sexual desires. Or children who know nothing of women?s privacy; and they should not strike their feet so as to reveal their hidden beauty and ornaments. And, turn to Allah together, O Believers, in order that you may succeed (in establishing a benevolent society (3359)).
3359 O Prophet! Tell your wives, your daughters, and women of the believers that they should draw their outer garments over their person (when in public (2431)). This is easy and proper, so that they may be recognized and not bothered. Allah is Absolver of imperfections, Merciful.
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Dear Marie ,
Bonjour ,The verses you listed has no reference to what we have discussed !
I rest my case here!
Simply, you are mixing things altogether, hence you are still adhering to old ideas that are not practical anymore. I respect your view to the issue and by no mean you should consider this as as offence.The verse you mention (4825) , (2431) have no indication to dress code mentioned on the argued verse (3359)!
The said argued verse (3359)came as a demand for some reason of ? less identifying ? recognition - so as to evade harm. there is not a matter of decensy , or chaste or chaste believers dress or else!The verse at Sura (2431) ? are demands form Lord for keeping up women private things as private, that has no link to the previous argued verses!
I have no intention to deviate you from what you believe, every free minded person would feel by logic to accept or to refuse any information, but this should be done based on facts and not expectations or else feelings, or wrong interpretation. My Lord is enough witness and I seek his guidance !
Verse (4825) should read as follows
(4825) They are the ones who rejected and barred you from the Restricted Temple, and has deviate the way to guidance for you though you want reach it. But that was not for some believing men and women whom you did not know, otherwise you may underestimate them thus felt ashamed of them unknowingly, once you know them, Thus , God will admit into His mercy whomever He wills. Had they become identified or recognized for you , We would then have punished those of you that will undervalued them with a painful retribution.
The word- ?Hady? here is guidance, it has no relevance to do with donations, hence the whole verses before and after has no indication of that whatsoever.
It is the guidance that you will not reach, hence they have deform it for you, but it was not the case with some believing men and women whom you may think of them as low level , thus you will feel ashamed of once you knew them! But your Lord admits to his mercy whomever he wills. And if somehow you came to confront them, and felt ashamed off , your Lord punish them(arrogant people) with a painful retribution.To God belongs the knowledge !
God bless you
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Peace Noor,
I will reply , just open your mind this time with no offence what soever !
No offence was taken. I have tried to keep an open mind for this discussion. Just because my responses reflect the traditional interpretation, does not mean I did not spend time analyzing this topic. I thought about your position when responding to you the first time, and I re-evaluated your position again after you asked me some questions.
Now I would ask of you to also try and keep an open mind. You did not answer my question #3, so I will try and reword it and ask it to you again. I will also add a few additional qualifying questions.
According to you, 3359 is asking believers to be less recognizable. According to you, this is accomplished by the believers dressing the same as those who would harm them. From your response to my first question, those who would harm them are ?either the disbelievers or the hypocrites?. In response to my second question, they are being told to dress like "either the disbelievers or the hypocrites".
Did the disbelievers (pagans) and hypocrites dress in the same manner?
Rewording of Question 3
3359 was issued in order to affect some sort of change in the dress of the believing women.
What was their style of dress before 3359 was issued?
Before 3359 was issued, was their style of dress different from the disbelievers (pagans)?
Was it different from the hypocrites?
Was it different from the people of the book?
If it was different, then why was it different? How did it come about that their style of dress was different (before 3359 was issued)?Thanks,
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Dear David ,
Peace,
Dear David ,
Thank you for your advice, I am all mind open!
Yes, is my reply. There would dress up same as those disbelievers and hypocrites as to mingle without being recognized or identified as to escape their harm.
Please understand dressing same clothes will not affect your behavior, it is for precaution purposes.
Let us see the definition of the word hypocrites
In Dictionaryhypocrite
(1) A person who engages in the same behaviors he condemns others for.(2) A person who professes certain ideals, but fails to live up to them.
(3) A person who holds other people to higher standards than he holds himself.
In Quran ,
The Quran provides us information about the character of the hypocrites and making decisions regarding them together with a warning as to how dangerous they could be. The danger lies in the fact that they are deceitful people or ?deceiving disbelievers? as in adjective form. i.e. they are disbelievers but a deceiving one.
Since Some disbelievers confess their disbelief and dissociate themselves and their lives from believers while others hypocrites mingle with believers to spread doubts and to repel from the path of God.It is acceptable right here?
I will go on?
Now the hypocrites already know the women of the believers since they are living among them. What would you think that the women of the believers had to do to escape the harm of those hypocrites?The women of the believers have to copy the dress of the disbelievers in order to escape their harm, then they will become unidentified to the hypocrites. The hypocrites would not tell who these are ? are these the women of the believers or of the disbelievers!!
Now if the Moslem women have to dress all in one uniform, this would make it easy for the hypocrites to identify them and harm them. So when you lord asks the prophet to tell the women of the believers during that limited period to dress as such it was for precaution purposes. It was not full time code dress!
Now, when our Lord asked the women of the believers to bring their garments closer to them ? as to cover themselves- so they will be less identified. It was for precaution purposes not for chastity!
But suppose that this type of coded dress demanded by your Lord , (bring your garments close to you ? cover yourselves ) were done only by the women of the believers . With this coded dress request, will be the sign for identifying the women of the believers. In other words, they will be identified since they were the only women dressing as such.Therefore, the women of the believers were asked to copy the dress of the disbelievers as not to be identified as the women of the believers and be exposed to harm.
I can not be clearer than that, unless my English is too bad to be understood!
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Salam Noor,
I think this expression "fala yu/thayna / they would be not harmed " (3359) is explained in the light of other verses in the same chapter 33
We read in 3353, those who believe are commanded if they ask the prophet's wives for something, they have to ask them from behind a barrier/curtain (hijabin), because this is purer for their hearts (the believers and the prophet's wives) and that could harm (tu/thoo) the God?s messenger..
Why did they ordered to speak to them behind a barrier, I think for the same reason exposed in 3359
"That is better so that they would be recognized and not harmed"In 3357, the God always speaks about those who harm (yu/thoona) the God and His messenger.
andIn 3358, it is also about those who harm (yu/thoona) the believing men and the believing women, with no just reason.
Which type of harm?
This is what we read at the end of 3358; the slander/great falsehood (buhtanan).See also 4156, 4112, 2416, 6012 (falsehood / buhtan)
The harm upon the wives of the prophet, his daughters, and the wives of the believers in 3359 is no more than the slander and falshood which could be spread by the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts ...(3360)
- If the hypocrites, and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.
If the hypocrites ...do not refrain from what? From spreading falshood, lies (3358 )...
- O wives of the prophet, you are not like any other women. If you are righteous, then do not speak too softly, lest those with disease in their hearts will move with desire; you shall speak in an honourable manner.
3333 And abide in your homes in quiet dignity, and do not make a dazzling display like that of the former Times of Ignorance. Help establish the Divine System and the Just Economic Order, and obey Allah and His Messenger. And Allah wishes to keep away all vices from you, O Members of the Household, and to purify you to utmost purity (of character).
As stated by David, Dress can be a security for the believing women because it is purer for them . If they show off their beauty like that of the former Times of Ignorance, they will be a target of slanders. But the God wishes to keep away all vices from them, and to purify them..
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Dear Noor, peace,
We agree on who the hypocrites were --
though I?m not sure whether it may also refer to some of the hypocrites among the people of the book since I haven?t looked into this in detail. So for the sake of moving along with our discussion, let us say the hypocrites are only those among the ?muslims?.
(if you have done research on who is referenced as hypocrites throughout the Quran, I would be interested in seeing it).It is acceptable right here?
Yes.
??
You didn?t really answer my questions again, so I?ll try to explain some of my thoughts. In order to put 3359 in context, I believe we need to think about what was going on before 3359 was revealed.
Let us only deal with disbelievers, hypocrites, and believers.
History tells us that 3359 was revealed around 4 A.H., and that 2431 was revealed around 6 A.H., but this could be incorrect (though I don?t think so). I will deal with both 3359 revealed first, and 2431 revealed first.To start, it is logical to assume that before the rise of Muhammad?s prophethood, all who were not people of the book dressed in roughly the same manner (assuming free persons, not slaves). Thus, what would eventually become described as believers, disbelievers, and hypocrites were all dressing the same way.
Let us assume that 3359 was revealed first. Thus, just before 3359 was revealed, hypocrites, disbelievers, and believers were all dressing in the same manner. I see no reason to assume otherwise. Now along comes the revelation of 3359 which instituted a change in the dress of the prophet?s wives, daughters, and the wives of the believers. The believers now dressed different from the unbelievers. However, 3359 would also have equally applied to at least some of the hypocrites. As we have both already agreed, the hypocrites were ?deceiving disbelievers?. In other words, they were pretending to be believers, and would likely follow commands in order to deceive.
Now let?s assume that 2431 was revealed first. Again, we can assume that before 2431 was revealed that the believers, hypocrites, and disbelievers all dressed the same. After 2431 the believers dressed differently from the disbelievers. The hypocrites, though, also dressed the same as the believers and different from the disbelievers for the reasons given before. Thus we now have the hypocrites and believers dressing similarly, but different from disbelievers. After 3359 is revealed, hypocrites and believers still dress the same, and different from disbelievers.
Note Even if we assume that the hypocrites did not change their dress along with believers, the dress of the believers would still have been different from the disbelievers. Therefore, the believers could not have been copying the dress of the disbelievers by following 3359.
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Now the hypocrites already know the women of the believers since they are living among them. What would you think that the women of the believers had to do to escape the harm of those hypocrites?
The women of the believers have to copy the dress of the disbelievers in order to escape their harm, then they will become unidentified to the hypocrites. The hypocrites would not tell who these are ? are these the women of the believers or of the disbelievers!!Do you think that all the hypocrites suddenly would develop amnesia and forget who the other ?muslims? were? Do you think that the hypocrites after 3359 did not continue to be part of ?muslims? and their gatherings? Do you think that they would forget who the wives of the prophet were and who his daughters were just because they changed their dress? Remember that 3359 also refers to the wives and daughters of the prophet.
peace
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Dear Marie
Dear David,First of all , David , concerning hypocrites you can follow this thread.
http//www.submission.org/friday/enemies010705.html
Thanks for your explanation. But as one said every one seems to put forward his own views that better suits his understanding, or else his vision. Many may see this as a dump discussion! I realized that you are sticking to the idea of verse (3359) was a major demand from the lord as a dress code of Islam. Therefore, you were discussing it from your point of view and looking for evidences and proof that would secure your point. While, I was viewing it as I understood, the verse (3359) as an advice for a limited time.
There are many terms mentioned in the quran were mistakenly interpreted by people throughout the years, that were ended up in a new mold of usage.
We end up creating our words to suit our interest and argue about it in the quran as if the Lord were using them in the wrong way!!
Our Lord Words, sentences and verses are designed well and there is no chance of mistake, or ambiguity if we are to follow logic!I have to draw your attention that the terms I used here for the word - covered- I meant "wholly covered" as you claim to be the case in (3359), where the term uncovered would mean "dressed in modest" and not nude! oops
Chaste vs. Unchaste
The word chaste in the whole quran was mentioned in three verses (46),(2433)and (2460) where the word was used to describe ?keeping morals high? for both men and women that were unable to marry ,and not through dressing more clothes or using some dress code.
Our Lord hereby attest that chaste men and women are not judged by the look of a dress or else how to be dressed, But by those who kept their morals high. Otherwise when our Lord told them to keep chaste, he would have added that they should dress more clothes or else informed how to dress as to keep them chaste!! Parallel to what Jews, Christians and Sunnis have done!! Ask their women to Tent themselves, in a way to keep them look modest. We should end up this joke..Whilst the word unchaste on the other side , were referred to in verse (425) in terms of ?taking secret lovers?, (mutachithat Akhdan) in Arabic, and adulteress (musafihat) in Arabic!
Back to your discussion
A ? If you assume that verse (3359) was for a women code dress request , there would be no reason for you to assume that (3359) comes before (2431), other wise verse (2431) would not be of any importance, and there will be no need to ask them to cover their bosoms spaces! Since females wearing as in verse (3359) is already covering their whole body, might including the head as well!!
The request of ? yudneen elayhenna? means to bring closer to them ,bring their garments closer to their bodies. And not lengthen, since if they were not long enough it will be silly request and a stupid act of bringing the garments closer, otherwise, parts of her body will be exposed once dressed in short garment.
B- Same manner apply to clicking heels. But considering following logic, and for the sake of understanding the truth in things, I need to discuss a little about it. Therefore, we can attribute ?heel clicking- to several reasons, although no need to argue this issue now, nevertheless
1- If the women was wholly covered , the reason behind heel click is solely to draw the attention (as a sign) of some men to follow her (bad girls hunting bad boys)! This option only applies to wholly covered women. Since covered women has nothing to reveal by this ?heel click-! Once they are not wholly covered, they are already identified in faces. Therefore, I don?t see any other reason for a wholly covered lady to click their heel- except to tell someone to follow her, since she would be unidentified by him, in addition that her beauty would be unseen as to claim that she was showing her beauty.
2- If the women were uncovered, then clicking heels- might be
2A- a bad habit of walking!
2B- a sign for demonstrating her beauty, whilst allowing some parts of her body to move, that is done by teenagers and as well as by matured ladies, though should not be considered as a matter of unchaste, since young teenagers and some matured women only like to show off innocently, irrelevant to unchaste belief!
3- If the word (yadrubma biarjulihinna) would mean ? mingle among them, then it would indicate that they were not covering their whole body for the same above conclusion!D- Verse (2431) is an indication for women to be cautious about such habit; an act that will expose them to those who have disease in their hearts and hypocrites. The verse talks of itself. Our Lord explicitly informs the goal of this request.
The verse (2431) applies not for dress code but for one slight modification that is to cover their ?juyub? ?openings(space)between breasts, and telling those women who were unable to marry to take precaution steps once taking their dress off during the presence of some categories of men and children.E- Verse (3359) is talking to the prophet which means this regulation applies to the time of the prophet, as precaution purpose at that time. Just like the order in (492)& (3356)!
F- We should not ignore the facts in the quran that talks about the existence of Jews and Christians that were living at that time. While reading their Talmuds, we understand that they were wearing their traditional dress code which is similar to those ?Tent moving women - covering head and body. And there is doubt not to expect that those Ignorant ( jahelliya) people that were used to claim themselves as the followers of prophet Abraham, whilst having no facts among their hands about his religion, were copying them ,(ironically as scholars times). Claiming there are Lords? demands!
The tradition of wearing (by women) was adopted by the Jews who wrote it in the Talmud (Talmud equals the Hadiths and Sunna), neither are the words of God!
G- In addition to the above, Quran inform us about the mentality of the people at that time, or part of them. Arabia before Islam was a society where there were no common rules, (4826) except that the strong dominated the weak. It seems reasonable to expect that a natural byproduct of such society would be the oppression of women. Oppression includes forcing women to do what men want. Some of the women were having no freedom to do as she likes, but was receiving her orders from her male, boss? leader.
H- In quran we read about female infanticide, (1658-59) would only be done with the one who submit to his own rules, surely it would not be done by man of principles, unless he is a hypocrite that displays the opposite of his own wishes.
Would such father with such mentality allow for his daughter to express herself freely? Would you believe that he would allow her to dress as she wishes? Only Fathers with this mentality would ask their daughters and wives to cover wholly. Ironically, this was the attitude of most of the (ignorance) jahelliya period, as not to fall off the ruling saddle! Same as our Scholars of today... all pretending or attributing the issue of tenting their wives as ? Chastity!! Whilst verse (726) explicitly talks about code dress in term of righteous.I- Dear David it was much better to assume in having very few females that are free in dressing differently from the manner of the disbelievers and hypocrites, Jews and Christians, who?re wholly covered, pretending chastity! Those few dressed differently are the free minded one that exists all time, who would reject the illogic.
Those were the group of people that would agree and support the Prophets? Mohammed mission or messenger ship,(362) hence it meets their principles, conveyed from prophet Abraham, that can only be attained through logic and mind.J- Your question Do you think that all the hypocrites suddenly would develop amnesia and forget who the other ?muslims? were? Do you think that the hypocrites after 3359 did not continue to be part of ?muslims? and their gatherings? Do you think that they would forget who the wives of the prophet were and who his daughters were just because they changed their dress?
There is a difference between women gathering in their society (Moslem society) or else mingling with other societies, such as disbelievers. the issue is not if the Moslem were on power, since Hypocrites always tend to aside seeking their interest and they are not only doing that for the strong party.
Hypocrites and hence Islam having no exact dress code for Moslems at that time kept their women, dressing same as other disbelievers, whilst pretending to be submitters!K- It is very interesting to view that some usage of the word ? libas & Yalbes ?in quran that should mean clothing or dressing in Arabic were not used in quran as to indicate so but else were used as a description , of confusion (50150), (69), camouflage (665) or hiding the truth (242), (371), deceiving (682).. etc.
Whilst the only dress ?libas?, is the clothes of righteous (726).God bless,
