Are you a Spiritual Person?
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Brother GL:
Do you still see the current Kaaba itself as the same Sacred House mentioned in the Quran even if the system around is corrupted as per your analysis?Because for me the issue is not about whether to go right now or not. The issue is simply understanding what the Quran is referring to when it talks about “masjid al-haram” and “tawaf." and the historical context Quran talks about when Ibrahim build the house.
If the House itself is the same one then its sanctity does not disappear because of what people do around it. Meaning: the place is sacred but the people lost the meaning. However If the House is not the same, then that changes the whole foundation.
So I am only trying to understand which one you mean.
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Brother Fusion...
Keep it simple.. Ask the same question to yourself... Perhaps you will find answers through the Quran..Let me shed some light through Al Quran for you to grasp.. My translations..
3:95 State! ‘The Divine has confirmed, so pursue—conviction of propensity of Ibrahim. While he was not among the ascribed ones.’
3:96 Indeed, a source of awakening laid down to the humans—as for the one in a state of lamentation; steadying as guidance to the identities.
3:97 In it, manifest lessons of Ibrahim’s stance—so whoever admitted it, became assured. And as for the Divine, upon the humans—Betake in the awakening, whoever abided unto its tenets. But whoever rejected, then the Divine is of relief from the identities.Look brother...The Divine never built a physical building to guide people.. Physical structure won't guide anyone, and it will lead only to ascribing to the Divine ...
If you comprehend the above verses, you will never take any physical structure in your life.. But it all depend with the Divine guidance and your approach though..
First of all the Divine tested Ibrahim for a long time.. Ibrahim succeeded.. Mainly his CONVICTION of PROPENSITY (Millat Ibrahim Hanif) was so captivating.. He was unique.. Any human to emulate a character, none you find than the 'Conviction of Propensity of Ibrahim'.. It is an authenticated and tested by the Divine.. Then through Ibrahim's Propensity, the Divine worked out a System..
That is 'Source of Awakening' i.e. Awwal Bayt.. Awwal =Source, Bayt = Awakening.. Check deeply the root of Arabic in lexicon for verification..
So this 'Source of Awakening' is a salutary for those seeking guidance through Divine revelations..
Then if you read the self-explanatory verse 3:97 it is clear.. Neither Ibrahim nor any building guides others, what guides is the source of awakening the Divine figured out for people leading to convictions of propensity..To further fortify, pls read below verses..
2:124 And when His Lord tried Ibrahim with directives then he accomplished them. He said that I am placing you for the humanity of a foundation, he said ‘Even from my offspring?’ He said, ‘Not aims my covenant of the erred ones.’
2:125 And when We made the awakening, a state of haven to the humans and an assurance while engaging from Ibrahim’s stance a point of connection. Further, We covenanted into Ibrahim and Ismaeel to distinctify my awakening to the disseminating ones, and the dedicated ones, while the persuading of the acknowledging.
2:126 And when stated Ibrahim, ‘Lord! Make this element secure and gratify its embraced ones with the yields, whoever concurred among them, in the Divine and the progressive of the episode.’ He said, ‘While whoever rejected, I let it facilitate a bit; subsequently, I afflict it into the harshness of humiliation and distress of the fate.
2:127 And when Ibrahim was promoting the outliving from the awakening, even Ismaeel, ‘Our Lord! Accept from us, verily you are the heeding of the revealing.
2:128 ‘Our Lord! as well make us assented ones to You, and from our offsprings a state of assenting community to You. Further, let us sense our ethicalities and orient ourselves. Indeed, You are the reorienting, the compassionate.
2:129 ‘Our Lord! And raise through them a dispatcher among them, educating upon them, Your explications and revealing them the ordainment and judgment while purifying them. Indeed You! You are the honor, the wise.’
2:130 And who is longing against convictions of Ibrahim except who has blundered, self of it? And, We had already refined him through the temporal, and he will surely be in the state of progressiveness to be among the reformed ones.
2:131 When said to him his Lord, ‘Assent!’ he said, ‘I have assented to Lord of the identities.’Everything makes sense if you use your brain without any prejudice..
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3:85 And whoever desires outside the assent (Al Islam), a commitment (Deen), so it is never accepted from it, while it is, in the state of progressiveness, among the lost ones.
Such a powerful verse, yet only to those who grasp it..
Some have concerns as they question me.. let me clarify..
As I stated, ‘Muslims are not meant to follow ISLAM’, yet Muslims/Assented ones should follow the Path of their Lord that is uniform’.. Islam is not something (creed or set of laws or religion) that one has in it so that he follows Islam.. Al Islam is just ‘The Assent, or if you prefer, The Submission’… You can’t follow the submission..
So what is ‘ASSENTING to the Divine’? Ibrahim was asked by the Divine, ‘Aslam/Assent and Ibrahim said, “I have assented.”.. What is this Muslim/Assented one or the state of ‘The Assent/Al Islam’?.. It is a subjective agreement between a self and its Lord, the Divine, to assent to everything the Divine commands and never to assent to any other entity. It's a two way agreement.. It is not like the Divine exists and the Divine is one.. No.. The Divine exists, one knows, and that’s why he assents in the first place.. It is not ‘Aslama’.. If I present with an analogy, it is like you are bound to work only for ‘ABC’ company, and not for any other company under any circumstances… It is not like ‘ABC’ company exists, so you consent it..
So, the one who assented/aslama and became a Muslim/Assented one is self-bound to obey the Divine when the Divine commands/commanded.. So, he gradually enhances his life as a concurring one / Mumin cus he starts to follow the path of the Divine alone away from all associations..
Now, let’s look at the above verse..
What does outside the Assent mean? i.e ghairi Al Islam.
To perceive that, let’s see what ‘Deen’ is? DEEN = COMMITMENT.. Yes, people are committed in life.. Doing many things in life with commitment, be it in general life or ethical life, their respective religious rituals etc.. all positive commitment to life is futile if one has not assented to the Divine, i.e. The Divine, our Lord’s path alone.. Remember Muslim is not the same believing in the Divine and having commitment in life.. Nope.. There are many religious people who believe in the Divine, and they have a life commitment, but their path is not from the Divine; thus, they have not ‘ASSENTED’ … Assent or submit to the Divine doesn’t mean one believes in the Divine, note the contrast well.. for instance, Traditional Muslims, Jews and some Christians believe in the Divine, but they all have not ‘ASSENTED/Aslama’ to the Divine path, they have some other agenda.. They all are NOT MUSLIMS.. They have not done their foundation right.. When the foundation is faulty, nothing goes right.. cus the foundation of assenting is to agree with the Divine, that I am not going to take any other path except Yours…
That’s why the Divine asks this…3:83 So, is it other than the Divine commitment, they crave…..
Now there are people who naturally first found out the existence of the Divine, like Ibrahim did, and then with that conviction of propensity, they assent to the Divine, i.e. to the path of the Divine alone.. They may not have read the Divine revelations, but all that they do matches with the Divine path, which is so inbuilt and so natural..
The one who doesn’t CONSCIENTIZE, the one who doesn’t read everything from ‘the Living Scripture’, will never find a way to the ancient Divine revelations which gives to him a sort of confirmation..Yes, Islam is the fastest-growing religion on Earth, but their SUBSCRIPTION has no worth at all.. No one is considered Muslim who does not agree with the Divine subjectively to adhere to the Divine path alone.
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Thanks Jkhan and I understand your logic of taking these verses as symbolic and you see the house as sort of inner awakening rather than a physical building. I got that understanding and thank you for sharing.
My question now is How do we determine when a verse is symbolic and when it is literal?
I mean What is the principle that tells us to interpret these actions metaphorically instead of physically? and this is a question to all and folks I am not debating just trying to understand the method, because I want to be consistent in reading the Quran.For example I have some further queries:
I used to read the very same verses quoted above in the background of:
If everything here is symbolic, then how do we understand:
raising foundations
purifying the House
people coming from distant lands
on foot and on camels
tawaf, standing, bowing, prostratingAll of these are physical verbs that describe movement and location.
Ref: 22:27
“And proclaim Hajj to the people.
They will come to you on foot and on every lean camel, from every distant path.
I mean This is geographical, no??
You cannot come “on foot” or “on camels” to a symbolic concept.
You only do that to a place.
Appreciate your reply.Edited:
There is another thread https://forum.free-minds.org/topic/24172/anti-aging-longevity-and-islam/19
Where its more or less the same concept- verse is clear mentioning the age of Noah yet multiple understandings. -
Yes.. Fusion..
The Divine guidance is spiritual and not physical guidance.. Look at the Quran to get spiritual guidance..
Regarding Haj..
Haj = Betaking..
Bayt = Awakening
Awwal = Source..
How can Ibrahim spread the message to wider communities around his location..
Yes.. Call/Summon them all who wish to attend to spread the message of Awakening laid down to them by the Divine..
So, they betake in a place where Ibrahim summoned and Ibrahim proclaimed it .. And from there onwards 'AWAKENING' the people took place.. Yes, upto prophet Mohmed this same procedure took place.. Let people Betake in the Awakening.. Unfortunately.. now it has become a ritual in some alien place.. This is an invention in the 7 or 8th century by people who did not know what Haj was in Quran and they supported with their own invention and incorporated with their cube.. -
Peace Fusion.
Qoran needs to benefit the believer. Hajj as described by GOD benefited the believers.
Today s Hajj has become something else and is not beneficial to the individual nor it is a place of GOD Alone anymore. It It has been hijacked by a different authority and religion.How does one benefit from GOD s message?
I do myself a list of do s and don t s, each should take Qoran seriously to prioritise the list
For example ,there is a thread here with a proposed items from verses of Qoran:
What you should (and shouldn't) do according to the Qur'an.Of course one checks and make the list according to their own study and understanding of the verses.
According to my understanding,today s Hajj to Saudi Arabia does not conform to what is in Qoran.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Do you want to subscribe to a religion? Let’s concentrate about some intelligent agnostics and atheists who comes very close to find the Divine behind all existences, yet when they find all religions of the world are man-made inventions plus scriptures like Al Quran doesn’t portray the true picture to them in many verses, since the holders of Al Quran claiming to belong to the religion called Islam and its followers called Muslims, have corrupted its true meaning superficially while words of the Divine in Arabic remain unaltered, thus, these atheists and agnostics simply move away from the scripture, thinking that Al Quran also a book of nonsense, like the Bible etc..
What if these agnostics and atheists opened their eyes for a second, hey! Wait a minute.. We understand that all these religions are man-made and there is no doubt about it, but does it mean that the Divine doesn’t exist? Why should I involve these religions and deduce through these religious lenses the truth as it never shows the truth, and that ultimately lead to deny the Divine that surely exists? What if all these religions went wrong while I am looking for a religion through which I could find the Divine? How can these religions pave inroads to such perspicacious people? Yes, some read certain verses of al Quran, but what they do in emotions instantly, they convert to Islam cus they think the Religion of the Divine is Islam.. So, unfortunate.. They are very close, and their concerns are so near to cross the line and find their Lord, had they relied on the living scripture with their own lens.. But, they too looked at a segment of living scripture, i.e. truth of the Earth and the Heavens in different lens, not in natural lens.. They went on to believe the conspiracy that everything began with a Big Bang and led them ultimately to contemplate that there is no Divine behind it.. The theory of the Universe is too complicated to apply a creator behind it and No place for a creator in that theory, cus the Universe doesn’t exist.. It exists in theory and for that theory, you don’t need a creator, cus the one who created the precept and its core of the universe wanted the very thing, i.e. to mislead people while he is misled.. The number one weapon to mislead the intelligent people is to impart to them that this is a Universe and it has nothing to do with a creator.. It’s all a random accidental blast.. lol.. How, if one was indoctrinated throughout his education of this theory, would ever find the Divine, on top of that all religions are corrupted and man-made stuffs.. That side of the living scripture has a theory and the theory they fabricated is not the truth… So jammed the path of these intelligent atheists and agnostics as conspired..
So, they did not SUBSCRIBE to any religion and preferred to remain in their stance. But they are closer, only thing they want to know to come out of this shackle is to find out ‘WHERE THEY LIVE AND ITS TRUTH’; Then they will find the Divine certainly… But, very few would come along that line, unfortunately.. If they are staunch enough with their natural observation over what they were taught, they would find the Divine behind this design, and be loyal to the Divine in their own way.. But, the trap of the Satan is too deep and bottomless, and whoever is fallen to that rabbit hole, is very improbable that he comes out of it.. Yet, the best chance to rebel and find the Divine is these atheists and agnostics if they remain honest, and not those who already SUBSCRIBED to a religion and that’s a pit, that’s too dark and too far to shed some light.. That’s a stark polarity, isn’t it?The Failure of Man-Made Religions, and the Dominance of a Godless Scientific Paradigm rule the world.. Well planned, O you Satan.. That’s why the most Djinn succeed than men 6:128.. Satan can’t fool the Djinn.. Yet, they fail, only cus they reject knowingly and thus they rebel while human fall to the trap of Satan..
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Peace Fusion.
Mekkah: A focal point for the believers and the messenger- when alive- and a place for gathering to share practice and social functions/duties .Hajj; a set days for GOD s commemoration/ Dhikr and meditation/ plus cultural and social celebrations / thanks giving and thanking GOD for all provisions.
I gave you my reasons why the practice is different and I do not partake with those that do the modern Hajj.Which means I cannot/not able to do Hajj and as far as I know so far, the exception is allowed in the message as I explained. "Limani Istaa Ilaihi Sabeela"
GOD bless you.
Peace. . -
Hi brother Fusion..
Let me chime in with your questions aimed at GL.. We are trios here, unfortunately.If you ask how to perform HAJ, it means you know what Hajj is according to the Quran, but you don't know how to perform it.. It sounds so ritual.. lol.. If you have read my translations where Haj verses occur up to chapter 6, you might notice a clear contrast... Meanwhile, let me add some verses from chapter 22 which I have not yet translated fully.. Glaring verses.. Never you might have read like this before.. Read below..
22:26 And when We did incur to Ibrahim, the awakening stance that not to ascribe with Me a thing, thus, distinctify my awakening to the disseminating ones, and the undertaking ones, yet the persuading of the acknowledging.
22:27 Then, broadcast concerning the chaos at the betaking; as they portray improvisations, yet on every unsophistication; they portray from every wilderness of disparity.
22:28 So that they involve counteractions for them, and consider the Divine attribute during episodes of realities on what He has contented them through a state of enhancement of the blessings. So, internalize through it, yet motivate the rendering of the suffering.
22:29 Accordingly, let them conclude their impurities, thus let them fulfill their avows, then let them permeate with the freedom of the awakening.A keyword here is 'Incurred'.. Yes, the Divine did incur to Ibrahim and it contains lot of hardships that Ibrahim went through.. Then, out of it came the birth of 'AWAKENING/Bayt'.. The stance of the Awakening has its core function.. That is to let people know that never to ASCRIBE with the Divine anything..
So what is the purpose of HAJ, i.e. BETAKING? Betaking for what? Betaking to get the AWAKENING and the stance of awakening is not to ascribe.. But, how to get clarification is done by Ibrahim towards people..
Here in 22:27 'Al Nass' is not the People, but its one of the root meaning is chaos.. Al Nass = the Chaos.. People are filled with chaos.. So, It was Ibrahim's duty initially to 'Broadcast concerning the chaos at the Betaking/Haj.. and then read the self explanatory verses.. The Divine intend that people get rid of impurities and find the truth through the Awakening through events of realities..
Well, if you are good enough to grasp, you will.. Otherwise, you will end up simply doubting.. I understand your position.. Let the Divine open your mind, until then, these verses won't make any sense to you while you have read translations of these verses many times and they are absorbed in your thoughts.
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Dear Good Logic,
I just want to clarify that my question was never about why you personally do or don’t perform Hajj. Everyone has their own reasons and this forum at least the way I see it is for discussing the concept and practice itself not individual choices.From your last message it seems clear that you still regard Makkah the present Makkah City as the geographical place connected to Hajj, since you mentioned the issue lies with how the system and rituals are carried out today and you do not agree on those. That gave me the impression that you see Hajj as something that is geographically linked even if the practice has been corrupted.
What I am trying to understand is: if, hypothetically, the system was pure and sincere again, would you still see Hajj as something tied to that same physical location and the House mentioned in the Quran? Because when you describe Hajj as dhikr, meditation, and social or cultural gatherings, it starts to sound like something that could be done anywhere. If that’s the case, then there would be no real need for travel to Makkah at all.
But if you agree that its a geographically anchored event, then surely there must be certain defined rituals (or structured acts, if not rituals) attached to it like tawaf, standing, or commemoration otherwise people will just create their own versions and it will lose any shared meaning because it is left open to do social gatherings etc as how different groups perform and again there will be disagreement on the practices people do....
So I just wanted to understand your view clearly: do you see Hajj as something purely spiritual and symbolic or as a physical practice that is geographically rooted but corrupted in its current form?
Peace.
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Dear Jkhan,
I honestly see what you mean and in a theological sense the concept you are sharing does make sense that Hajj and Bayt could also represent a deeper awakening or purification of self. I can understand that symbolic layer.But the challenge (not only to me but to all of us I guess-Please folks correct me or do participate in the discussion here) brother is that your translation and linguistic approach to the Quran not just in these verses but across your work is so unique that its very difficult for any ordinary reader to follow or verify. For example, the way you render Bayt as “Awakening,” Hajj as “Betaking,” An-Nas as “Chaos,” ; these are completely different from all known translations or classical lexicons . So if someone wants to agree with your view, he first has to align or calibrate himself entirely with your translation method.
With all respect, thats a big leap because it places your interpretation in contrast with almost every other Quran translation that exists (unless you share any work similar to yours or inspirations).
So yes I get the theological gist you are presenting that Hajj is about awakening and not ascribing partners to the Divine but the question still remains: how do we reconcile this with the plain physical language of the Quran where Ibrahim and Ismail are clearly said to have raised the foundations of the House (2:127) and people are invited to come from every distant pass (22:27)?
Thats why I find your symbolic explanation thought-provoking, touches the intellect of any truth seeking soul, and thank you for your work as its unique and different from rest of the translations.
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I can understand your situation brother.. Cus I was there..
The problem is whoever translated in the past, they had an agenda and they never ASSSENTED/ASLAMA to the Divine with the concept of Relying only in the Divine path.. They looked at the Quran through another lens, that's tradition and culture and hadith books.. So, they would find Haj as those fabrications portray and not as what the Quran, i.e. the Divine teaches us... Rely on the Divine alone, you will know what the truth of this Quran, and this is an amazing book for those who seek truth..
All prophets from the time of Ibrahim did the same thing.. They had a mission of 'AWAKENING' a wider area of people, rather than just delivering to a very minute community as they do daily.. Haj/Betaking was a huge event and only possible once those Messengers/Prophets were well established in the society with a sufficient number of followers..
As Quran states in the story of Ibrahim/Yaqub..
2:132 Moreover, Ibrahim transmitted by it his sons including Yauqub, ‘O my sons, verily the Divine has refined for you the commitment,
so do not die, unless while you are in a state of assenting onesIt is so clear, being a Muslim is almost freed from Hell.. Cus this Muslim has a big meaning as I stated in my earlier threads.. 'ISLAM" is a massive step forward, i.e. an agreement with the Divine subjectively not to follow any path other than the Lord's, the Divine path.. He should maintain this ASSENT, In which there cannot be any Ascribing.. This is the savior from Hell, though he may not get the degree of Janna that the concurred and well-practiced person may get..
Ibrahim's sons and grandsons are not born as Muslims.. Everyone has to have that commitment with the Divine... Unfortunately, we call traditional Muslims or conventional Muslims while they are NOT AT ALL MUSLIMS.. cus they never ASSENTED with the Divine not to follow anything other than the path of the Divine.. They already had their path, which is not at all the path of the Divine.. They are not Muslims.. Though we call them Muslims and they claim they are Muslims.. They believe in God, Yes.. Yet they never assented... Even Iblees believes in God... Believing in God doesn't make a person a MUSLIM.. Their belief is nothing while they don't/won't AGREE with the Divine not to go off track of HIs path..
Time will heal your issues, yet you need to seek vigorously having the faith in the Divine alone..
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Peace Fusion.
GOD has not changed the focal point nor the place /sanctuary.
Of course if the place is cleaned up- GOD Alone and true Islam restored there- Although the restoration that matters is in people s hearts and ways- then I will pay a visit and may be meet you there brother.
Or may be I will just visit the place as a tourist in the future as I travel all over the world to see friends ,family and walk around GOD s earth appreciating history and landmarks. and thanking GOD for His blessings to mankind.
Thank you for the conversation.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Brother Jkhan I truly appreciate the time and thoughts shared as I find you clearly speak from deep conviction. May the Divine guide us all toward and keep our hearts on the right path. Peace.
Yes brother Fusion.. Let's leave the guidance to the Divine alone.. Let's seek with honesty and integrity.. May the Divine guide us..
I got a message from a member.. He has always thought that a Muslim is someone who follows the religion Islam, or sometimes he thought a Muslim is the one who believes in God, and as you are aware, traditionally, Muslim means or begins with the statement of 'La Ilaha Illah Allah'.. Further, he stated, this thread and the explanation of Muslims makes much sense, and like you, he thanks.. But he wants to know, then what does 'Believe in Allah and do good deeds' mean?
Well, brother, Nothing from the above is Muslim.. You are already aware what it is now..
Let me address the second part of your question.. yes. It is not simply to believe in the Divine.. One has to concur in the Divine, then accompany all good deeds and avoid evils.. Concurring in the Divine doesn't become with words or just cus someone ask you to do.. It comes with lots of reasoning through the Living Scripture.. So you get convinced that the Divine exists, and No other option.. There, you decide to concur in the Divine.. It can happen while reading 'Revelations' of the Divine, too, but without the Living Scripture to buttress it won't happen.. So, that's called in general language, 'Believing in the Divine'.. When you believe in the Divine, you won't become a believer or Mumin.. Mumin is the development of 'FAITH' with many layers, optimistically, where doubts are clarified .. It's full of actions.. But you have to always remain as a MUSLIM until death cus its the agreement with the Divine not to follow any other path and not to associate with the Divine anything.. If you deviate from this manifest agreement, you are not a Muslim anymore.. You can't violate the deal with the Divine.. You may kill a person, and you won't lose your deal with the Divine.. You are still a Muslim.. But, the killing is your evil action for which the Divine has not given permission, unless for the reason given.. So, you have to reform, or you should go through the procedure that you deserve for the killing.. Yet you are still Muslim.. The reason hypocrites are destined to hell, though they believe in the Divine, is that they violated the deal of being a Muslim, plus their ACTIONS were never with faith.. Thank you..NOTE: Brother Good Logic, I sent you a PM in case you have not seen it..
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Peace jkhan.
I have not received any pm Since the update of the forum.
Try again to see if things work .
Sorry brother.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
@good-logic
I just sent you a Test Message.. Check it.. I am chatting with few people after new version and I am receiving and sending.. anyway check your chats.. If not better you contact Admin.. -
2:136 State! ‘We have concurred in the Divine and what originated upon us and what originated towards Ibrahim, and Ismaeel and Ishac and Yauqub as well the continuity moreover, what rendered Mosa and Eisa and what rendered the illuminating ones from their Lord. Not we differentiate between one among them, while we for Him assenting.’
2:285 Entrusted the dispatcher, in what is revealed unto him from his Lord, even the concurring ones. Everyone concurred in the Divine, and His executors, and His ordainments, and His dispatchers. ‘Not we differentiate between anyone of His dispatchers.’ Even they stated, ‘We heeded and undertook – Our Lord, grace You us, while unto You is the fate.’People asking me to explain then the above two verses.. Here I presented my translations..
These two verses are not accepting Islam or becoming Muslim.. It is the TRUST in the Divine.. you never read anyone's scripture of the past.. You don't know the scripture of Ibrahim and his sons etc.. but you trust that the same message in them. Same you trust in Malaika, you have never seen.. It is not the agreement between the Divine and you to ASSENT.. Muslim is totally different..
Even notice how 2:136 is ending as Muslimun cus they already in the process of Assenting.. Muslim/Muslimun/Muslimeen are related to grammar.. Muslim, someone who assent, Muslimun Assenting one, i.e. the one doing that action, and MusliMeen is the did that action.. all same but grammar wise different..
So, above verses are about TRUST in the Divine and His actions and in His main figures.. You won't become Muslim by trusting these entities.. You should have that AGREEMENT with the Divine.. Then you are a Muslim.. Never ascribe, never follow other paths.. Other paths itself ascribing to the Divine.
