The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan

[Layth]

Iblis is an individual (Satan) - Shaytan is an attribute.

[Ronin]

Peace Layth,

I want to start by expressing my deep respect and appreciation for your translation work, Qur'an - Monotheist Translation, which has undoubtedly made a significant contribution to the understanding of the Qur'anic text. Your commitment to provide a clear, accurate, factual, and rational English translation of the scripture of the lord is truly admirable.

As mentioned in my original post, a few months ago I came across a new understanding, which I have detailed in my article in this thread. This led me to reconsider the translation of several Qur'anic verses. In particular, I have come to believe that the term Iblis (a proper noun referring to a specific jinn), which is commonly translated as "Satan" in your translation of the Qur'an and in several other English translations as well, should be left untranslated rather than being rendered as "Satan". Furthermore, I believe that the terms "Shaytan" and "Shayatin", which are commonly translated as "the devil" or "devils" in your translation of the Qur'an and in a few other English translations too, might more accurately be rendered as "Satan" and "Satans." My article presents some suggestions that might offer a closer alignment with the original meaning of those Qur'anic terms and the theological context of those verses. Although translating "Shaytan" and "Shayatin" as "Satan" and "Satans" is more closely aligned with the spirit and theological context of the Qur'anic language, I still believe that "the devil" and "devils" are good and accurate translations of the terms "Shaytan" and "Shayatin", and could be kept as they are in your English translation of the Qur'an, without any alteration. While I deeply respect the effort that goes into your English translation of the Qur'an, I believe this new perspective could offer a deeper understanding of those Qur'anic terms and their theological context. In light of this new perspective, I would greatly appreciate it if you would consider to revisit all the verses where you have translated Iblis as "Satan" and instead, leave the term Iblis untranslated, as this would more accurately preserve its original meaning and its theological significance. Lastly, I would be happy to discuss these suggestions further with you if you are interested.

I really appreciate your time and consideration, and for the tremendous value your translation work continues to bring to the study of the Qur'anic text.

Note: Regarding Shaytan being an attribute, I second that. It refers to a behavioral quality in both jinn and humans that shows misguidance and deviation (6:112, 7:27, 114:4-6, 58:19, 41:25, and 38:6-7).

[Fusion]

Good observation brother Ronin and I would like to ask your thoughts on a few specific understandings that I have come across.

1. Iblis, the angels, and the term “jinn”
   In the verses where Allah commands the malaika to bow to Adam, Iblis is present among them and refuses. Since the Quran mentions the creation of humans from clay and jinn from fire, but does not explicitly mention angels being created from light, some argue that the common belief about angels being made of light is not Quranic.
   Based on this, one line of thought suggests that the malaika may also be a creation associated with fire, and that Iblis was one of them an elevated being while “jinn” was more of a laqab (designation or category) rather than a completely separate ontological species.
   How do you see this understanding?

2. Jinn in Surah al-Jinn as human groups
   In Surah 72, where a group of jinn listen to the Prophet’s recitation and then return to their people, some interpreters suggest these were not supernatural beings, but rather uncivilized or nomadic human groups who heard the message and went back to their tribe to convey it.
   This aligns with interpretations such as those of G.A. Parvez, who sometimes reads “jinn” as desert nomads or socially undeveloped groups.
   What is your view on this reading?

3. Jinn as a pre-human, now-extinct creation
   Another interpretation proposes that there once existed a creation called jinn on earth when the planet’s surface was extremely hot. Because they were created from fire, they could withstand such conditions. Later, this creation became extinct, and human beings Homo sapiens appeared after that stage. In this view, the later concept of shayṭan is more about rebellious tendencies among humans rather than a supernatural being.

[Ronin]

Peace Fusion and everyone,

Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply and your prudent and interesting questions. I truly appreciate your engagement with the article and the opportunity to discuss it further.

Your questions are excellent, and I believe many of the answers are already addressed within the article. If you have a moment, I'd recommend rereading it in its entirety, as I think it covers many of the points you've raised. That said, I'm happy to address your questions directly. I'll follow up with a separate post in one of the coming days to provide a more detailed response, if God wills it.

Again, thank you for your reply, Fusion. I really value this conversation.

For anyone else who has thoughts or questions about the article, I'd be happy to hear your feedback and engage with you. Your insights are truly valued and welcomed.

[Fusion]

Peace Ronin. Thanks for the response and for the effort you are putting into this topic.

I did notice the original post looks quite different now from when I first read and replied to it. That’s fine, of course, but it can make the discussion a bit confusing when earlier posts change after replies. Personally, I find it easier when new thoughts are added as separate posts, so the flow of the conversation stays clear.

Anyway, I will wait for your follow-up and keep the discussion simple around those few points.

[Ronin]

Peace Fusion,

Thank you for your feedback. I completely understand how changes to the original post might make the conversation feel a bit disjointed. The aim was to update the article for clarity, depth, and to include new, relevant information. That said, I value your preference for adding new thoughts as separate posts, and I agree that it's a prudent approach. Your input is really appreciated, and I'm glad we can continue this discussion.

[Ronin]

@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:

Good observation brother Ronin and I would like to ask your thoughts on a few specific understandings that I have come across.

1. Iblis, the angels, and the term “jinn”
   In the verses where Allah commands the malaika to bow to Adam, Iblis is present among them and refuses. Since the Quran mentions the creation of humans from clay and jinn from fire, but does not explicitly mention angels being created from light, some argue that the common belief about angels being made of light is not Quranic.
   Based on this, one line of thought suggests that the malaika may also be a creation associated with fire, and that Iblis was one of them an elevated being while “jinn” was more of a laqab (designation or category) rather than a completely separate ontological species.
   How do you see this understanding?

Peace Fusion and everyone,

In response to the notion that Malaika may be a creation associated with fire, and that Iblis was one of them, an elevated being, while "jinn" was more of a laqab (designation or category) rather than a completely separate ontological species, it's important to note that the Qur'an makes a clear distinction between humans, Malaika (traditionally translated as angels), and jinn. Each of these creations is presented as distinct and has different natures and roles.

While the Qur'an clearly states that humans were created from clay and jinn from dynamic fire, it doesn't specify the material from which the Malaika were created. The widespread and traditional belief that the Malaika are made of light, however, is not directly supported by the Qur'an but instead originates from several commonly referenced hadiths (Sahih Muslim 2996, Sahih al-Bukhari 3207 and so on). Some might argue that if the Malaika aren't made of light, they could instead be created from fire, with Iblis potentially being one of them. But does the Qur'an actually support this view?

Isn't it true that, while Adam was welcomed into the company of the Malaika, he was not one of them but a human being? Isn't it also true that, while Iblis was in the company of the Malaika, he was referred to as a jinn? Doesn't these facts provide strong evidence that Iblis was indeed a jinn, rather than one of the Malaika? The Qur'an clearly indicates that jinn are a completely separate species from the Malaika, as shown in the second post and article on this thread. More importantly, just because Iblis was among the Malaika before Adam's creation, does that automatically mean he was one of them? Or does the Qur'an unmistakably show that Iblis was not a Malaika?

The Qur'an provides a clear and detailed account of the nature, role, and powers of the Malaika, which further shows the distinction between them and Iblis. Unlike Iblis, who, as a jinn, chose to defy God's command, the Malaika are defined by their unwavering obedience and purity. They were created for specific, elevated roles, and their functions reflect complete submission to God's will. The following list of qualities and duties of the Malaika in the Qur'an illustrates just how distinct they are from Iblis's nature and actions:

• Malaika are created as messengers or message-bearers with two, three, or four wings, powers, abilities or cabilities (3:39, 3:42, 3:45 and 35:1).
• Malaika are mentioned alongside a natural force which indicates that they too belong to the realm of divine natural forces (13:13).
• Malaika do not look like humans, as widely believed, nor are they sent to humans because faith is supposed to be a test (2:210, 6:8-9, 15:6-8, 17:94-95 and 25:7).
• Malaika guard Hell and carry out divine punishment, and their number serves as a test for the ungrateful, rejectors, and coverers of the truth (66:6 and 74:30-31).
• Malaika are an essential article of faith, and belief in their existence, role, and function is required for true faith (2:98, 2:285, and 4:136).
• Malaika are pure and severe in their role, and they never disobey God's commands (16:49-50, 2:30, and 66:6).
• Malaika supported Prophet Muhammad and the believers during battle by God's command (3:121-126 and 8:7-13).
• Malaika and the righteous believers were supporters of Prophet Muhammad, with God being his ultimate supporter (3:124-125, 8:9, 33:56 and 66:4).
• Malaika send blessings upon believers to act in support of God's blessings, to bring them from darkness into the light (33:41-43).
• Malaika seek forgiveness on behalf of humans on Earth (40:7 and 42:5).
• Malaika glorify and praise God (2:30 and 13:13).
• Malaika bear witness to God's revelations (4:166).
• Malaika have knowledge that is strictly limited to what God has revealed to them (2:30-33).
• Malaika surround and carry the Throne of God and pray for the believers (39:75, 40:7, and 69:17).
• Malaika provide reassurance and support the believers (33:41-43 and 41:30-31).
• Malaika have the power to intercede, but only with God's permission for those whom God wills (53:26).
• Malaika question and confront wrongdoers at the time of death (4:97 and 6:93).
• Malaika take the souls of humans upon death (32:11, 16:28-32, and 47:27).
• Malaika welcome the righteous believers into Paradise with peace (13:20-24, 16:32, and 41:30-31).

Isn't it unmistakably clear from several verses in the Qur'an that the Malaika never disobey God, since they have been created solely to carry out God's commands without any deviation or disobedience (8:12, 16:49-50, and 66:6)? Doesn't this clearly show that Malaika, unlike Iblis, lack free will? If Iblis were truly one of the Malaika, why and how could he have disobeyed God's direct command to yield to Adam and acknowledge his honor? Doesn't the Qur'an make it unmistakably clear that Iblis was a jinn with free will, as stated in verse 18:50? Isn't it this free will that allowed Iblis to defy God's command?

Since Iblis was created from dynamic fire and had free will, didn't he make the proud and arrogant choice to disobey God's command by refusing to yield to Adam and acknowledge his honor (7:11-12, 15:27, 15:30-33, 17:61-63, 18:50, 38:74-76, 55:15)? Didn't this defiance cause him to become a kafir (2:34)? Doesn't the Qur'an further show that there are other jinn who are kafir too (6:130)? Doesn't this clearly indicate that Iblis was a jinn, just like other jinn? Doesn't these undeniable facts about Iblis show that Iblis was completely different from the Malaika, who were made without free will and created solely to obey God's commands?

Doesn't the Qur'an unmistakably show that the Malaika, by their very nature, can never defy God's will or rebel against God? Doesn't verse 66:6 make it unmistakably clear that the Malaika were created only to carry out God's commands, without the freedom to act on their own or disobey God? Doesn't verse 21:27 clearly confirm that the Malaika don't speak until God has spoken to them, and that they act solely on God's will? Doesn't this clearly show their complete and unquestioning obedience, even though they may ask questions to gain clarity or deeper understanding, as mentioned in verse 2:30?

Doesn't the Qur'an clearly show that Iblis's disobedience was not a flaw in his creation, but rather a direct result of the free will inherent in his nature as a jinn? Wasn't it this free will that allowed him to choose defiance? With all this overwhelming evidence, doesn't the Qur'an irrefutably prove that Iblis's disobedience was a direct result of him being a jinn with free will, not a perfectly obedient Malaika who is incapable of such rebellion? Who, in their right mind, could possibly deny this irrefutable proof?

In conclusion, while the Qur'an doesn't explicitly state that the Malaika were made from dynamic fire like Iblis, their defining characteristic is unwavering obedience to God's will, an obedience that remains unchanged regardless of their composition. The Qur'an clearly shows that the Malaika, regardless of their origin, possess no free will and can only carry out God's commands. Therefore, the key difference between Iblis and the Malaika lies not in their composition, but in their nature. The Malaika are incapable of disobedience. Iblis, as a jinn, however, possessed free will and chose to defy God's command. It is this act of defiance, a direct consequence of his free will, that irrefutably proves Iblis could not have been a Malaika.

[Ronin]

Fusion, I've answered the first question you asked here. Your questions raise some important topics and points that deserve a detailed response, so I'll be addressing the second and third questions later this week, if God wills it. I truly wish I had more time to engage in the forum, share my thoughts, observations and findings, and also read more of the thoughts, observations and findings of others. I've learned so much from the thoughts, observations and findings of others here, and it has been incredibly valuable to me in my journey. Unfortunately, I haven't had the chance to participate as much as I would like here because of a busy schedule and other commitments.

Once again, your questions are excellent, and I really appreciate the thoughtful topics and points you've raised. I think it's always rewarding and enriching to participate in such important and meaningful discussions.

[Ronin]

@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:

2. Jinn in Surah al-Jinn as human groups
   In Surah 72, where a group of jinn listen to the Prophet’s recitation and then return to their people, some interpreters suggest these were not supernatural beings, but rather uncivilized or nomadic human groups who heard the message and went back to their tribe to convey it.
   This aligns with interpretations such as those of G.A. Parvez, who sometimes reads “jinn” as desert nomads or socially undeveloped groups.
   What is your view on this reading?

Peace Fusion and all!

Indeed, some interpretations see the "jinn" as nomadic human groups that are rural, socially undeveloped, uncivilized, or primitive. While the understanding of jinn as "nomads" is not part of mainstream Islamic thought, it has appeared in some modernist interpretations, mystical literature, and some online debates.

In some of his works, Ghulam Parwez explicitly refers to jinn as "nomadic tribes," and points out their restlessness, freedom, and mobility, which are qualities that align closely with the concept of nomadism. Parwez portrays jinn as unbound and constantly moving, which reflects the essence of a nomadic existence. As Parwez explains in his "Glossary of Quranic Words", jinn were originally humans from uncivilized tribes, which connects them to a lifestyle of perpetual movement. He further elaborates that the Qur'an frequently refers to both "Jinn" and "Ins" together in many verses. As noted by Parwez, while "Ins" refers to settled tribes, "Jinn" represents nomadic groups (bedouins, gypsies, or wandering tribes) who roamed the deserts or forests, far from urban societies. Parwez also explains that the term "Janeen" refers to an embryo (fetus) in the mother's womb, while "Junnatun" denotes a shield or weapon used for protection (58:16). He further notes that "Jinnatun" means madness (23:25), as Arabs historically believed that madness was caused by a jinn.

Similarly, in his English translation of the Qur'an, "Qur'an Explains Itself (6th edition, 2016)", Shabbir Ahmed explicitly refers to jinn as "nomads," which portrays their free-roaming, non-urban nature. This aligns with the image of nomadic tribes that wander the deserts or forests, beyond the reach of settled societies. Ahmed also points out that both jinn and jannah (garden) share the same root, which reinforces the notion of something hidden or concealed, whether it's the unseen jinn or the hidden garden or paradise.

Both Ghulam Parwez's and Shabbir Ahmed's interpretations essentially show that jinn represent freedom, restlessness, and the untamed. This symbolizes a way of life outside the boundaries of urban and settled societies. Furthermore, their views suggest that jinn embody raw nature, the wild, and even the depths of human desire and emotion.

In contrast, Sufi mystics and scholars like Ibn al-Arabi and Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi describe jinn as beings in motion, with a focus on their spiritual journey rather than physical wandering. They view jinn as ethereal beings (light, spiritual, and often associated with higher realms) engaged in spiritual exploration, and prioritize their inner transformation over their outward movement. While the interpretations of the aforementioned Sufi mystics and scholars differ from those of Parwez and Ahmed, all the aforementioned scholars portray jinn as restless beings in constant motion, unbound by limits, one focused on physical roaming, the other on a spiritual quest.

Meanwhile, Sufi scholars and Islamic thinkers like Shah Waliullah Dehlawi and Al-Ghazali acknowledged the spiritual nature of jinn. However, they viewed them primarily as non-corporeal beings (immaterial and without physical bodies) with specific roles in the unseen realm, rather than as wandering, ethereal beings. Similarly, Muhammad Asad, in his translation and commentary of the Qur'an "The Message", while suggesting that jinn are invisible beings, draws attention to their intangible and unseen nature, which aligns with the broader Qur'anic view of jinn as non-corporeal beings. The focus of these scholars was on the nature of jinn and their metaphysical functions within the broader cosmology, rather than on their spiritual journey.

Another view of jinn, found in Arabian folklore and Hadith literature, portrays jinn as invisible, supernatural beings with the ability to shape-shift into animals or humans and possess people. These ideas are deeply rooted in Arabian folklore and certain Hadiths, and they are very different from the nomadic interpretation, as well as the mystical and metaphysical interpretations. For example, some Hadiths describe jinn taking the form of dogs or snakes and causing illness or madness in humans. This shape-shifting view shows the otherworldly and supernatural powers of jinn in Islamic tradition. Similarly, traditional and classical tafsir scholars who relied heavily on Hadith literature (to interpret and explain the Qur'an), like Ibn Kathir, Al-Jassas, and Ibn al-Jawzi, along with certain other Islamic scholars, have argued that jinn are invisible beings capable of shape-shifting and possessing humans, and they viewed them as supernatural beings with distinct roles in the unseen realm. The supernatural view of jinn as invisible, shape-shifting beings capable of possessing people is widely believed and accepted among many Muslims worldwide today. In addition, this belief is deeply woven into both the faith and cultural traditions of many Muslims around the world.

While Ghulam Parwez and Shabbir Ahmed's view of jinn as "nomads" is more rational and more rooted in the Qur'an than folkloric or mystical and metaphysical interpretations of jinn, it still oversimplifies their true nature and essence. By reducing jinn to aimless and wandering nomadic humans, ethereal beings, or non-corporeal beings, or simply invisible beings with supernatural powers and the ability to shape-shift or possess humans, these interpretations miss the Qur'an's deeper and more complex portrayal of jinn. All of these aforementioned interpretations of jinn fail to capture jinn's complex and varied nature, diversity, free will, moral accountability, capacity for rationality, and powerful agency, as unmistakably shown in the Qur'an. The true nature and essence of jinn goes far beyond the simplistic descriptions found in the nomadic interpretations of some modern scholars, the metaphysical and mystical views of some Sufi scholars, and the supernatural beliefs from Arabian folklore and Hadith literature, as well as certain traditional and classical tafsir (commentaries).

All of these aforementioned views oversimplify the Qur'anic description of jinn and misrepresent their true nature and essence. Lastly, the nomadic interpretation and all the other aforementioned interpretations contradict and are incompatible with the broader context of Qur'anic teachings.

If jinn were just aimless and wandering nomads as Ghulam A. Parwez, Shabbir Ahmed, and some other modernist scholars suggest, then how on earth could they be capable beings with structure and purpose, as unmistakably described in several verses in the Qur'an? Furthermore, doesn't the Qur’an clearly state in verses like 55:15 and 15:27 that jinn were created from dynamic fire before humans? Don't these verses, without a shred of doubt, indicate that jinn are distinct from humans and have a unique origin and composition?

Doesn't the Qur'an unmistakably show that jinn possess capabilities far beyond those of nomadic human tribes? Doesn't verse 55:33 indicate that jinn have the ability to travel vast distances, even to space, just like humans? Furthermore, don't verses 72:8-9 indicate that jinn have experience in space exploration? Moreover, doesn't verse 72:9 further indicate that the space-traveling capabilities of jinn are equal to, or even surpass, those of humans? Can wandering and aimless Nomads do any of these things? How could that possibly make any sense?

Don't verses 34:12-13 unmistakably show that the jinn carried out complex tasks for Solomon? If the jinn were truly nomads, how could they possibly carry out such tasks? How could they build magnificent sanctuaries, statues, basins as large as great watering-troughs, and cauldrons firmly anchored, as explicity described in these verses? Doesn't the Qur'an make it unmistakably clear that the jinn were highly skilled beings who worked for Solomon, and crafted whatever he wished for him, from intricate designs to grand constructions? Didn't they perform tasks that demanded expertise in craftsmanship and construction? Don't these tasks require advanced abilities? Can these monumental feats possibly be the work of aimless and wandering nomads? Don't these monumental feats require a level of power, discipline, and specialization that goes far beyond anything that could ever be attributed to ordinary nomadic life?

Doesn't the Qur'an mention a powerful jinn who worked for Solomon, and states that he brought the throne of the Queen of Sheba to Solomon at incredible speed and in a short amount of time, even before she arrived at Solomon's kingdom (Qur'an 27:38-40)? Don't these verses irrefutably prove not only the advanced capabilities of this particular jinn which may have surpassed humans, but also that these beings possess an extraordinary level of power and organization that goes far beyond the capabilities of aimless and wandering nomadic human tribes?

Doesn't verse 17:88 make it unmistakably clear that, even if all humans and all jinn united and fully supported one another, they could never produce anything like the Qur'an? Doesn't this Qur'anic challenge prove that jinn are not just aimless, wandering nomads, but intelligent, capable, and purposeful beings with advanced intellectual abilities? If jinn were truly nomads, how could they possibly possess such profound intellect and influence? How could they possibly engage in a task that is as complex and advanced as attempting to replicate the Qur'an? How could aimless and wandering nomads even be entrusted with such a monumental task, let alone be mentioned alongside all of humanity?

Doesn't verse 17:88 completely overturn the idea of jinn as primitive, directionless wanderers and instead show them as beings of real significance in the Qur'an's vision of life on Earth? If they were truly nomads, how on earth could they be entrusted with such a monumental task? Doesn't trying to replicate a complex and highly advanced book like the Qur'an require cooperation, planning, structure, and higher thought? Doesn't this fact (firmly supported by verse 17:88) unmistakably reveal jinn as intelligent, purposeful, and capable beings with highly advanced intellectual abilities and a distinct, meaningful, and powerful role on Earth?

Doesn't the Qur'an indicate that the jinn play an active role in human affairs and possess influence (6:100, 6:128, 34:41, and 72:6)? Don't verses 6:100, 34:41, and 37:158 show that humans served the jinn and set them up as partners (associates) with God? Doesn't verse 72:6 mention that some humans sought refuge in the jinn, but the jinn only increased them in their burden? Doesn't verse 6:128 state that on the Day of Resurrection, the jinn will be told that they had misled many humans? Don't verses 46:29-32 and 72:1-2 show that the jinn listened to the Qur'an and then went to warn their own people? Don't all these aforementioned verses unmistakably show that the jinn are purposeful beings with agency and a distinct, influential role that is entirely different from humans, rather than being aimless and wandering nomads?

Doesn't the Qur'an indicate that Adam was the first human and the progenitor or stemfather of humanity (2:30-34 and 17:61-62)? Doesn't the Qur'an strongly imply that Iblis was a key figure among the jinn, possibly the first to defy God, with offspring as well, which suggests he could be considered the first jinn and the progenitor or stemfather of the jinn (2:34, 7:11, 18:50)? Doesn't verse 18:50 explicitly state that Iblis had offspring? How does this fact align with the notion that jinn are nomads, while at the same time confirming they are not human since they have their own offspring and are created from dynamic fire before humans? Doesn't the fact that Iblis and his offspring are described as having a distinct nature (created from dynamic fire before humans) further question and challenge the notion that jinn are the same as nomadic human tribes?

Doesn't all the overwhelming weight of evidence in all the aforementioned Qur'anic verses provide irrefutable proof that jinn in the Qur'an are powerful beings with structured roles and significant influence on Earth? The notion that jinn are aimless and wandering nomadic tribes (primitive in nature) simply doesn't align with their purposeful, capable and structured nature as described in the Qur'an. The Qur'anic portrayal of jinn as purposeful beings who influence both the Earth and human affairs is completely incompatible with and directly contradicts the nomadic interpretation. In the absence of a single shred of irrefutable evidence to the contrary, isn't the notion of jinn as aimless and wandering nomads more a product of fantasy rather than a statement of fact?

In conclusion, while some modern interpretations liken jinn to nomads, the Qur'anic understanding of jinn as powerful beings with distinct and organized roles directly questions and challenges the flimsy idea that they are aimless, wandering, primitive nomadic human tribes. The Qur'an presents jinn not as nomadic human tribes, but as purposeful and influential beings with a crucial role in God's divine order.

[Fusion]

Salam Ronin,
Peace and Ramadan Kareem,

First, I want to sincerely say that the way you summarized your position is brilliant and very well structured. I genuinely see your point, and I appreciate the effort and depth you have brought into this discussion.

After reading your article and responses carefully, I just have some additional insights that came to my mind. I am not presenting them as counter-arguments just sharing them for your further review and analysis. I would really like to hear what you think about these reflections.

When I look at the Quran as a whole, the overwhelming focus seems to be on human beings. The narratives revolve around prophets, human societies, destroyed cities, Pharaoh, Lut, Nuh, Ibrahim, social corruption, justice, reform and almost everything is centered around humanity. Accountability, moral responsibility, and legislative structure appear primarily directed toward human life.

At the same time, we do receive glimpses of other creations i.e angels, Iblis, and jinn. The Quran tells us that jinn were created before humans, from fire. It suggests they have free will in that that they are accountable, that some of them listened to the Prophet’s recitation and returned to their people. It speaks of attempts to access the unseen and being repelled by shihab. It mentions influence among humans waswasa min al-jinnati wa-n-nas.

But beyond these glimpses, we are not given a fully defined picture.

We do not know their societies.
We do not know how they operate today.
We do not know their cities, systems, population, or interaction mechanisms.

Everything beyond what the Quran explicitly states becomes interpretation whether folklore, hadith-based narratives, mystical readings, nomadic interpretations, or more structured ontological frameworks like the one you’re presenting.

And that is where my reflection begins.

Unlike mountains, oceans, natural resources, or physical phenomena which humanity later studied and understood more deeply : jinn remain outside our observable physical experience. We cannot measure, observe, or interact with them in a verifiable way. So inevitably, every generation forms a conceptual image based on its intellectual tools and imagination.

Perhaps that mystery is intentional.

Now here is something that makes me think further:

The Quran does sometimes address both humans and jinn together for example, in 51:56, “I did not create jinn and humankind except to worship Me.” There are verses where both are clearly addressed.

Yet when we look at the detailed structure of the Quran : the legal framework, social policies, inheritance laws, marriage laws, economic rules, warfare rules, governance principles all of that is directed toward human society.

Yes, the concept of Tawheed applies universally. Moral accountability applies universally. But the procedural and legislative implementation described in the Quran is entirely human-centered.

This raises an interesting question in my mind:

If jinn are a completely distinct creation with their own nature, society, and mode of existence, can the same procedural framework realistically apply to them?

Or could it be possible that:

They have their own messenger(s)?

They have their own form of revelation?

Or a different mode of divine guidance suited to their nature?

We simply do not know.

When Surah al-Jinn describes a group of jinn listening to the Prophet and returning to their people, that itself opens multiple interpretive possibilities. It shows comprehension, awareness, accountability but it does not fully define their world.

So while I agree with you that the Quran presents jinn as more than folklore and certainly not simplistic, I personally remain cautious about reaching a fully definitive ontological conclusion.

For me, the safest position is:

We affirm what the Quran clearly states.
We do not deny their reality.
But we also acknowledge that beyond the Quranic description, the picture remains open.

Maybe the Quran’s purpose was never to fully define jinn, but to mention them only to the extent necessary for guiding humans.

That mystery itself may be part of the design.

I share these thoughts with respect and openness, and I would genuinely value your reflections on them.

[Ronin]

Peace Fusion and all!

Fusion, thank you for your latest reply. I will answer the third question from your first post, as well as the questions from your most recent post, in one of my upcoming replies.

In the meantime, I'd like to question and challenge the idea that jinn are humans.

The strongest reasons for viewing jinn as humans lies in their shared human-like qualities and capabilities. Like humans, they possess eyes, ears, and hearts, and are able to think, reason, and reflect on their actions (7:179). Like humans, they are capable of differentiating between good and bad (72:6, 72:11, and 72:14). Like humans, they have free will (32:13, 34:12, and 51:56). Like humans, they live on Earth (72:12). Like humans, they are capable of listening to human speech and even revelation (46:29-32 and 72:1-2). Like humans, they can communicate with humans (27:39). Like humans, they can perform tasks that require expertise in craftmanship and construction (34:12-13). Like humans, they have the capability for space travel (55:33-35 and 72:8-9). Like humans, they have their own prophets and messengers (6:112 and 6:130). Like humans, they cannot know the future or the unseen (34:14 and 72:10). Like humans, they have a self and are capable of being guided (32:13). Like humans, they have offspring (18:50). Like humans, they have their own communities (umam) and are therefore classified as creatures from the perspective of the Qur'an (6:38, 7:38, 41:25, and 46:18).

The top strongest reason for viewing jinn as humans is that they can listen to human speech and even revelation (46:29-32, 72:1-2). But, the claim that any creature capable of understanding human speech must be human is a logical error. Understanding human speech isn't unique to humans. Animals like dogs, parrots, and dolphins also understand human speech. Insisting only humans can grasp human speech commits a hasty generalization and false equivalence. Communication and intelligence aren't exclusive to humans, and understanding speech is just one of many abilities that a creature can have, not what defines humans. Therefore, this argument is severely flawed and completely oversimplified.

The strongest reasons for not viewing jinn as humans lie in their extraordinary abilities, which set them apart from humans in significant ways. The jinn are described as possessing the ability to travel vast distances at incredible speeds (Quran 27:38-40). They are also described as having access to realms beyond Earth, including the celestial domain. For example, verse 72:9 describes how the jinn "sat in positions for hearing" in the sky, where they could eavesdrop on divine matters before being deterred by projectiles. This indicates not only their interaction with the celestial realm but a capability far beyond human reach. In addition, the jinn, including Iblis, were created from dynamic fire. This foundational difference completely separates them from humans, who were made from clay. The abilities of the jinn, combined with their otherworldly origins and distinct composition, unmistakably show the jinn's unique nature and make it clear that they cannot be equated with human beings.

The Quran irrefutably proves that Iblis and all other jinn were created from dynamic fire before humans:

• Iblis was a jinn and was created before Adam from dynamic fire (7:12, 18:50 and 38:77-76).
• The jinn was created before the human from dynamic fire (15:27 and 55:15)
• Therefore Iblis was no different than any other jinn.

As is evidenced by the aforementioned verses, the Quran leaves no doubt that Iblis and all other jinn were created from dynamic fire before before humans were created (7:12, 15:27, 38:76, 55:15). This fact completely exposes the flaws in the notion that jinn are humans and singlehandedly causes its entire foundation to crumble and vanish into the wreckage of history.

[Ronin]

Peace all!

In this post, I'd like to question and challenge Muhammad Abduh's understanding of the jinn.

The strangest interpretation of jinn I've encountered so far comes from Muhammad Abduh, a renowned Islamic reformer. Abduh worked to reconcile Islam with modern science and reason, and his views on the jinn represent a significant departure from traditional Sunni beliefs. Instead of seeing the jinn as literal supernatural beings made of smokeless fire, Abduh suggested they might represent unseen phenomena, such as microbes, which modern science had only recently discovered.

As a side note, the phrase "smokeless fire" doesn't appear in the Qur'an. Instead, it originates from hadith and traditional tafsir (commentaries). Despite this fact, both traditionalist and modernist English translations of the Qur'an have used the phrase "smokeless fire" in their translations. Even Edip, Layth, and Shabbir Ahmed (whose translations I highly regard and truly recommend) use the phrase "smokeless fire" in their English translations of verse 55:15 in the Qur'an. It would be great if they might consider revisiting that verse in the future and re-translate it. Personally, I used to believe that the translation "smokeless fire" was correct until recently, but I no longer consider it to be accurate.

I admire Abduh's effort to bridge (reconcile) faith, modern knowledge, and rational thought, especially in his Tafsir al-Manār. That said, I believe his overemphasis on, and unquestioning reliance upon, external sources (particularly modern science) led him to overlook the Qur'an's own context and internal logic, which limited the full depth of its teachings. The scientific method itself is grounded in questioning and falsifying one's theories, views, or understandings, and when this doesn't happen, it ceases to be science. While Abduh's approach was innovative, rational, and contributed to a better understanding of the Qur'an, it ignored the role of context regarding Jinn and didn't allow the Qur'an to fully explain itself about Jinn, which I think is unfortunate.

In the paper "Muhammad Abduh's Scientific Views in the Qur'an" by Ahmad N. Amir, Abdi O. Shuriye, and Ahmad F. Ismail, on page 2039, it is stated:

"From his unique point of view, Abduh claimed that Jinn are not really supernatural beings, but rather entities hidden from the eye (which is ideally the meaning of the term Jinn). He relates this to the modern scientific discovery of microbes. In his commentary on Surah al-Baqarah, verse 276: 'Those who swallow usury will rise only as he rises whom Satan has infected by his touch,' he connects the passage about the one who practices usury to epilepsy, relating it to the modern theory of microbes, which could be understood as the Qur'anic Jinn: 'The ‘ulama say that the Jinn are living bodies which cannot be seen. The Manār has stated more than once that it is permissible to say that minute living bodies, which have now been made known through the microscope and are called microbes, may possibly be a species of the Jinn. It has been proven that microbes are the cause of most diseases... However, we Muslims are fortunately under no necessity to dispute with science or the findings of medicine regarding the correction of a few traditional interpretations. The Qur'an itself is too elevated in character to be in opposition to science.' (C.C. Adams, 2010)."

The following points (supported by Qur'anic verses) show that jinn cannot be microbes.

Did microbes speak to and work for Solomon (27:17, 27:38-40, and 34:12-14)? Did microbes hear and respond to the Qur'an (55:33 and 72:1-2)? Do microbes peacefully surrender to God (72:14-15)? Do microbes possess hearts, eyes, ears, and reasoning abilities (7:129)? Do microbes have the ability to speak (6:112 and 27:39)? Do microbes have free will (18:50, 34:12, 51:56, 72:1-2, and 72:12-14)? Do microbes have the ability to write and create literature (17:88)? Do microbes act as devils (shayatin), by leading others astray through deceptive speech (6:112)? Do microbes have their own prophets (6:112 and 6:130)? Do microbes have the capability for space travel (55:33-35 and 72:8-9)? Do humans enjoy the company of microbes (6:128)? Do humans seek refuge with microbes (72:6)?

As evidenced by the aforementioned points (supported by Qur'anic verses), if we use the Qur'an as the furqan (the ultimate criterion), the notion that jinn are microbes completely crumbles. In other words, the Qur'an unmistakably shows that this notion is refuted beyond doubt, which leaves no room for reinterpretation whatsoever.

[Ronin]

@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:

3. Jinn as a pre-human, now-extinct creation
   Another interpretation proposes that there once existed a creation called jinn on earth when the planet’s surface was extremely hot. Because they were created from fire, they could withstand such conditions. Later, this creation became extinct, and human beings Homo sapiens appeared after that stage. In this view, the later concept of shayṭan is more about rebellious tendencies among humans rather than a supernatural being.

Peace Fusion and all!

The notion that jinn are a pre-human species that became extinct before humans appeared is impossible to defend when we use the Qur'an as the furqan (ultimate criterion). If this notion were true, how could jinn possess the distinct qualities attributed to them in the Qur'an, qualities that clearly show they are not pre-human species at all?

If jinn are a pre-human species that became extinct before humans appeared, how could jinn have abilities like traveling at incredible speeds (27:38-40)? How could jinn ascend to the heavens, only to be repelled by shooting stars when attempting to eavesdrop (55:33-35, 72:8-10)? How could jinn possess moral accountability (6:130, 51:56, 72:1-2)? How could jinn have free will (18:50, 34:12, 51:56, 72:1-2, and 72:14-15)? Aren't these qualities completely beyond any prehistoric human? With such clear and undeniable qualities, who can still equate jinn with any pre-human species?

If jinn are a pre-human species that became extinct before humans appeared, how then could Iblis and Adam be in the same company and later descend to earth together (2:36, 7:13, 7:24, and 20:123)? How could jinn play an active role in human affairs and exert influence (6:100, 6:128, 34:41, and 72:6)? How could humans serve jinn, invent a kinship with them, and even set them up as partners with God (6:100, 34:41, and 37:158)? How could some humans seek refuge in the jinn, only for the jinn to increase their burdens (72:6)? How could jinn be told on the Day of Resurrection that they had misled many humans (6:128)? How could jinn listen to the Qur'an and then go to warn their own people (46:29-32, 72:1-2)? How could jinn interact with and work for Solomon (27:17, 27:38-40, and 34:12-14)?

If jinn are a pre-human species that became extinct before humans appeared, how could they be challenged to not be able to create something like the Qur'an, even if they cooperated with humans to do so (17:88)? How could the Qur'an explicitly say that Iblis and his offspring (the other jinn) should not be taken as allies beside God (18:50)?

If jinn were a pre-human species that became extinct before humans appeared, how could they possibly do or accomplish all the aforementioned things? How on earth is that even possible?

From the aforementioned Qur'anic verses, it's unmistakably clear that jinn are not pre-human or extinct. Instead, they are living beings created by God, who live on earth, interact with humans, and are subject to guidance and judgment just like humans. They are an ongoing part of creation, destined to fulfill their role in the world. The references to their continued activity (such as listening to the Qur'an, influencing humans, and being accountable for their deeds) unmistakably show that jinn are still alive and present on earth today.

[Ronin]

Peace all!

Most Muslim scholars believe that Iblis was given respite until the Day of Resurrection, and therefore remains alive and active until then. However, doesn't this belief regarding Iblis's story overlook some crucial points? Doesn't the Qur'an clearly state that Iblis was a jinn and was created before Adam from dynamic fire (7:12, 18:50, 38:76-77)? Doesn't the Qur'an also state that the jinn were created before the human from dynamic fire (15:27 and 55:15)? Doesn't this show that Iblis was no different (in his created nature) than any other jinn?

Furthermore, doesn't Iblis's story indicate that he is not necessarily granted an unusually long lifespan which lasts until the Day of Resurrection but that he shares the same basic condition of life and death as other jinn? Doesn't Iblis's story also indicate that his respite is primarily a delay in his punishment until the Day of Ressurection, so that he can mislead humans while he is alive (on earth), but that his life, like that of all jinn, is still limited and temporary (7:14–15, 38:81, 15:37–38)? Iblis's ability to mislead humans is part of the test that continues until the appointed time (the end of the world and the Day of Resurrection), but it does not necessarily imply an extraordinarily extended life that lasts all the way until the Day of Resurrection.

The Qur'an states that Iblis was given respite until the Day of Resurrection (7:14-15, 15:36-37, 38:79-80). Furthermore, Iblis became a kafir (2:34). Since Iblis was a jinn, this means that the jinn include kafir (deniers of the truth), just like humans. Interestingly, in the context of verses 6:6-7, the Qur'an uses similar language when it refers to the respite given to those who kafaru (denied the truth) among humans. The term "yunzaruna" in verse 6:7 and the term "anzirnī" in verses 7:14–15 are derived from the same root (n–z–r), which means "to look" or "to observe," but is also used in the sense of "to delay” or "to grant respite." This indicates that the respite given to those who kafaru (denied the truth) among humans is similar in concept to the respite that was given to Iblis.

From this perspective, the Qur'anic language about respite shows a postponement of decisive punishment to an appointed time, rather than spelling out the exact biological length of Iblis's life. So, while many understand these verses to imply that Iblis personally remains alive until very near the Day of Resurrection, the language in those verses can also be read as saying that Iblis condemnation and final recompense are delayed, without explicitly stating that his lifespan is uniquely extended beyond the general condition of created beings. This way of understanding the verses in Iblis's story keeps the Qur'an's straightforward statement that Iblis is a jinn created from dynamic fire, subject to divine decree and ultimate accountability, while it also brings out the parallels between the respite granted to Iblis as a kafir (denier of the truth) and the respite granted to those among humans who are kafir (deniers of the truth).

[Fusion]

Unless Iblis was a high-ranking Angel who disobeyed God.
I believe some folks do consider him as an angel and there are various posts on the site, if am not mistaken.

[Ronin]

Peace Fusion and all!

A malaika (traditionally translated as angel) cannot disobey God. Please read/re-read post number 9 in this thread.
Iblis was not a malaika who became a jinn after disobeying God. But Iblis was a jinn who became a kafir after disobeying God.

2:34 And We said to the angels: "Yield to Adam," so they yielded except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.

As evidenced by verse 2:34, Iblis became (one) of the al-kafireen (traditionally translated as "rejecter" or "disbeliever").

[Fusion]

Just to be clear, I don’t have a fixed conclusion on this yet. I was only bringing up what others have said to keep the discussion academic and to hear different perspectives.

When Allah commanded the malaika to prostrate to Adam, they all obeyed except Iblis. The Quran then clarifies in 18:50 that Iblis was from the jinn. So the same narrative already explains the distinction: the malaika obeyed, Iblis disobeyed, and he was from the jinn. That by itself suggests he was not from the malaika by nature, even if he was present among them. Why he was present is not entirely clear to me, perhaps it was simply part of the divine plan for events to unfold as they did.

Those who say Iblis was an angel usually interpret the exception in 2:34 as proof he was among the angels, understand “angels do not disobey” as a general description rather than an absolute, and read “jinn” in 18:50 as a category or state rather than a separate creation. So the difference really comes down to how these verses are read together.

I believe this topic was discussed extensively on the forum many years ago, although I couldn’t locate the thread.

Also, just as a general observation, as far as I understand, the Quran explicitly mentions the creation of humans (from clay) and jinn (from fire), but it is silent on the material or origin of angels. Some people, based on hadith, say angels are created from light, but that is not stated in the Quran itself. Because of this silence, different interpretations have emerged within the Quran-focused community ; for example, some even understand angels as forces of nature. These discussions tend to go in circles. But the Quran being silent on the creation of angels does not mean they are not a distinct creation; it simply means their origin is not described.

[Ronin]

@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:

Just to be clear, I don’t have a fixed conclusion on this yet. I was only bringing up what others have said to keep the discussion academic and to hear different perspectives.

When Allah commanded the malaika to prostrate to Adam, they all obeyed except Iblis. The Quran then clarifies in 18:50 that Iblis was from the jinn. So the same narrative already explains the distinction: the malaika obeyed, Iblis disobeyed, and he was from the jinn. That by itself suggests he was not from the malaika by nature, even if he was present among them. Why he was present is not entirely clear to me, perhaps it was simply part of the divine plan for events to unfold as they did.

Those who say Iblis was an angel usually interpret the exception in 2:34 as proof he was among the angels, understand “angels do not disobey” as a general description rather than an absolute, and read “jinn” in 18:50 as a category or state rather than a separate creation. So the difference really comes down to how these verses are read together.

I believe this topic was discussed extensively on the forum many years ago, although I couldn’t locate the thread.

Also, just as a general observation, as far as I understand, the Quran explicitly mentions the creation of humans (from clay) and jinn (from fire), but it is silent on the material or origin of angels. Some people, based on hadith, say angels are created from light, but that is not stated in the Quran itself. Because of this silence, different interpretations have emerged within the Quran-focused community ; for example, some even understand angels as forces of nature. These discussions tend to go in circles. But the Quran being silent on the creation of angels does not mean they are not a distinct creation; it simply means their origin is not described.

Peace Fusion,

Your explanation is well-structured and insightful, especially regarding the Qur'an's lack of information about the origin or composition of the malaika (traditionally translated as angels), and how the silence on this leaves room for different views. The mention of the divine plan for events to unfold as they did adds an important dimension to the discussion, which suggests that some things might be part of a larger purpose beyond our understanding. I also appreciate your honest and sincere search for truth, your open-mindedness, and your willingness to consider different interpretations, all of which reflect a thoughtful, reasonable and evidence-based approach to this topic.

Among monotheists in the Quran-focused community, some indeed believe the malaika are forces of nature, according to their interpretation of the malaika. A prominent example of this view is Ghulam Parwez. Personally, I am not convinced by this interpretation of the malaika, since it overlooks the role of context in the Qur'an. Parwez was a profound scholar and his contributions to true islam are outstanding. However, much like Muhammad Abduh, his overemphasis and overreliance on external sources (particularly modern science) sometimes led him to neglect the Qur'an's own context and internal logic, which limited the full depth of its teachings. The Qur'an is uniquely self-explanatory, unlike human-authored text. Its internal coherence requires that its meanings be derived primarily from its own context, with external sources playing a secondary role.

The malaika are conscious beings with communication, intention, and purpose. They interact with prophets, humans, and jinn (Iblis), deliver messages, carry out specific tasks, and are associated with natural phenomena, such as thunder (13:13). Therefore, the malaika cannot simply be classified as (or reduced to) forces of nature.

[Fusion]

I appreciate the way you have replied. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for not to push positions but to explore and think through different angles.

Your last paragraph is very interesting. The Quran does present malaika as conscious beings with roles, communication, and purpose. We see them interacting with prophets, and the general understanding is that Jibreel conveyed revelation, while in some cases there may have been direct communication.

But this is also where I pause a bit. A lot of this falls under al-ghayb the unseen. The Quran itself starts by describing believers as those who believe in the unseen (2:2–3). None of us has actually witnessed malaika, and even with jinn, while more is described about them, we still don’t observe them directly.

So sometimes I wonder if this is part of the test itself that not everything is meant to be fully resolved intellectually or empirically. There may always be a boundary where reasoning stops and belief takes over.

At the end of the day, some of these things we may only fully understand when we meet our Lord. Until then, we just keep reflecting and discussing within what the Quran gives us owing the difference of opinions in the interpretations.

[good logic]

Peace brothers and sisters..
The question that may answer what Iblis was before he became a Jinn is this one:
When was the souls classified ? i.e to become Malaika, Jinns, Humans etc...?

For example is this our first creation/life? Similarly Iblis must have had a different life before he became/was created a Jinn. Did he rebel and was about to betray GOD in that life ?

Did Iblis take advantage of his status/power and wanted to break away from GOD s realm/kingdom to lead his own kingdom? Did he feel powerful enough to be his own god?

Angels after their classification, did not know why GOD wanted to create us /give us another chance. They questioned our nature . GOD told them "I know what you do not know".
So the demonstration of Iblis .Adam showed the Angels the true character of Iblis and Adam.
Since the Jinns and humans are here for the trial ,they must the two creations that had issues in that past life. What was the Feud in the high heaven about?:

Say, "Here is awesome news.
قُل هُوَ نَبَؤٌا۟ عَظيمٌ
"That you are totally oblivious to.
أَنتُم عَنهُ مُعرِضونَ
"I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.*
ما كانَ لِىَ مِن عِلمٍ بِالمَلَإِ الأَعلىٰ إِذ يَختَصِمونَ
Here is what RK said:
The feud in the High Society was triggered by Satan's challenge to God's absolute authority. This is definitely the most important event in the history of the human race. We failed to make a firm stand regarding God's absolute authority. This life represents the third and final chance to redeem ourselves .
I tend to agree with him and also Qoran clearly calls us " Musrifeen" and " Kuffar" and wants our repentance/to redeem ourselves in this life.. i.e what was our original sin?
Malaika were the only ones who stayed loyal to GOD Alone throughout.
In other words the creatures before the feud were all a different type- I call them souls- Some Malaika and Iblis may have been high rank/closer to GOD than other souls.

So in conclusion Malaika .Jinns. Humans....were a different type of creation. The feud / their stand got them classified as they are now.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.