The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan
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I appreciate the way you have replied. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for not to push positions but to explore and think through different angles.
Your last paragraph is very interesting. The Quran does present malaika as conscious beings with roles, communication, and purpose. We see them interacting with prophets, and the general understanding is that Jibreel conveyed revelation, while in some cases there may have been direct communication.
But this is also where I pause a bit. A lot of this falls under al-ghayb the unseen. The Quran itself starts by describing believers as those who believe in the unseen (2:2–3). None of us has actually witnessed malaika, and even with jinn, while more is described about them, we still don’t observe them directly.
So sometimes I wonder if this is part of the test itself that not everything is meant to be fully resolved intellectually or empirically. There may always be a boundary where reasoning stops and belief takes over.
At the end of the day, some of these things we may only fully understand when we meet our Lord. Until then, we just keep reflecting and discussing within what the Quran gives us owing the difference of opinions in the interpretations.
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Peace brothers and sisters..
The question that may answer what Iblis was before he became a Jinn is this one:
When was the souls classified ? i.e to become Malaika, Jinns, Humans etc...?For example is this our first creation/life? Similarly Iblis must have had a different life before he became/was created a Jinn. Did he rebel and was about to betray GOD in that life ?
Did Iblis take advantage of his status/power and wanted to break away from GOD s realm/kingdom to lead his own kingdom? Did he feel powerful enough to be his own god?
Angels after their classification, did not know why GOD wanted to create us /give us another chance. They questioned our nature . GOD told them "I know what you do not know".
So the demonstration of Iblis .Adam showed the Angels the true character of Iblis and Adam.
Since the Jinns and humans are here for the trial ,they must the two creations that had issues in that past life. What was the Feud in the high heaven about?:Say, "Here is awesome news.
قُل هُوَ نَبَؤٌا۟ عَظيمٌ
"That you are totally oblivious to.
أَنتُم عَنهُ مُعرِضونَ
"I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society.*
ما كانَ لِىَ مِن عِلمٍ بِالمَلَإِ الأَعلىٰ إِذ يَختَصِمونَ
Here is what RK said:
The feud in the High Society was triggered by Satan's challenge to God's absolute authority. This is definitely the most important event in the history of the human race. We failed to make a firm stand regarding God's absolute authority. This life represents the third and final chance to redeem ourselves .
I tend to agree with him and also Qoran clearly calls us " Musrifeen" and " Kuffar" and wants our repentance/to redeem ourselves in this life.. i.e what was our original sin?
Malaika were the only ones who stayed loyal to GOD Alone throughout.
In other words the creatures before the feud were all a different type- I call them souls- Some Malaika and Iblis may have been high rank/closer to GOD than other souls.So in conclusion Malaika .Jinns. Humans....were a different type of creation. The feud / their stand got them classified as they are now.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
I see what you are trying to connect GL, and I do value the direction you are exploring. But this is actually what I was trying to highlight earlier.
The Quran does give glimpses of certain events for example, the covenant in 7:172, and the mention of the dispute in the higher assembly in 38:69. So yes, there are hints that something beyond this present life took place.
But at the same time the Quran does not describe these events in full detail. It doesn’t lay out a complete narrative of a previous life, classification of souls, or a full account of what exactly happened.
So anything beyond those brief references becomes, to some extent, our own attempt to connect the dots. In other words, it moves from what is clearly stated into interpretation or assumption.
For me, the safer approach is to acknowledge the glimpses the Quran gives, but also accept that the full picture is not explained to us. We were not there, and the Quran has not detailed it fully, so there will naturally remain a limit to how much we can reconstruct.
From a Christian point of view, the narrative is that before humans were created, God created angels, and among them was Lucifer, a high-ranking angel who became arrogant and rebelled against God. This rebellion led to his fall, and he became Satan, cast out from the heavenly realm along with other angels who followed him. After this, God created human beings (Adam and Eve), and Satan then tempted them, leading to the concept of the Fall or original sin. In this framework, the rebellion happens first among angels, and the human story comes afterward. However, Christianity does not generally teach that humans themselves existed before this life or that they were part of that earlier rebellion; that idea goes beyond mainstream Christian doctrine.
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Brother Fusion.
We can only try to connect the dots. Verses of Qoran clearly tell us a lot, let s do a list:
1- We were created when we were nothing, then we were created from earth.
2- The only unforgivable sin is "Shirk" unless we repent. God created us only so that we "Ubud" only Him Alone. Therefore to uphold GOD Alone and His laws/authority.
3- We committed a serious sin- Not taking a firm stand to uphold GOD authority /doubting GOD Alone is the sole power and source sounds to me like a serious sin.
4- Arrogance of Iblis and our ego are the culprits. This is the worst "Shirk" . It is taking on our own god/s.
5- Alastu Bi Rabbikum" and we said "Yes" means we even made a deal/contract that GOD Alone is the only GOD .
6-Iblis tried to make himself a god besides GOD ,and has a free pass to mislead/get us to break our contracts and follow him ,then he will disown us. This is our trial/a consequence of our own doubt.
7- What is it that we recall/remember tomorrow at GOD s meeting?
Connecting the dots leads us to this most likely scenario as described above. i.e that we sided with Iblis and if we do not correct we will end up with him and his allies.
It makes sense to me and I have not found or considered any other scenario for our purpose, have any others?
GOD bless you.
Peace -
I understand the narrative you are building by connecting the dots.
For me, theres a clear distinction between what the Quran states and what we infer by linking verses together. The Quran gives certain glimpses, but it does not lay out a complete backstory in the way you have described.
Different people can connect the same dots and arrive at different narratives.
My approach is to stay with what is explicitly described and not extend it into a full story that the Quran itself does not clearly establish.
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I appreciate the way you have replied. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for not to push positions but to explore and think through different angles.
Your last paragraph is very interesting. The Quran does present malaika as conscious beings with roles, communication, and purpose. We see them interacting with prophets, and the general understanding is that Jibreel conveyed revelation, while in some cases there may have been direct communication.
But this is also where I pause a bit. A lot of this falls under al-ghayb the unseen. The Quran itself starts by describing believers as those who believe in the unseen (2:2–3). None of us has actually witnessed malaika, and even with jinn, while more is described about them, we still don’t observe them directly.
So sometimes I wonder if this is part of the test itself that not everything is meant to be fully resolved intellectually or empirically. There may always be a boundary where reasoning stops and belief takes over.
At the end of the day, some of these things we may only fully understand when we meet our Lord. Until then, we just keep reflecting and discussing within what the Quran gives us owing the difference of opinions in the interpretations.
@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:
I appreciate the way you have replied. This is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping for not to push positions but to explore and think through different angles.
Your last paragraph is very interesting. The Quran does present malaika as conscious beings with roles, communication, and purpose. We see them interacting with prophets, and the general understanding is that Jibreel conveyed revelation, while in some cases there may have been direct communication.
But this is also where I pause a bit. A lot of this falls under al-ghayb the unseen. The Quran itself starts by describing believers as those who believe in the unseen (2:2–3). None of us has actually witnessed malaika, and even with jinn, while more is described about them, we still don’t observe them directly.
So sometimes I wonder if this is part of the test itself that not everything is meant to be fully resolved intellectually or empirically. There may always be a boundary where reasoning stops and belief takes over.
At the end of the day, some of these things we may only fully understand when we meet our Lord. Until then, we just keep reflecting and discussing within what the Quran gives us owing the difference of opinions in the interpretations.
Peace Fusion and all!
I agree with everything you said, except the part where you seem to imply that Jibreel (Gabriel) is a malaika (angel). In traditional Islam and Hadith, Jibrīl (Gabriel) is often referred to as one of the malaika (angels). But when we turn to the Qur'an as the ultimate criterion (Furqan), a distinct understanding emerges, which indicates that Jibril (Gabriel) is not a malaika (angel), but is instead referred to as the Ruh (Spirit), a distinction that sets Jibril (Gabriel) apart from the general category of malaika.
Please read the following verses where the Qur'an differentiates between the malaika (angels) and the Ruh (Spirit), also known as Gabriel
26:192-193 And this is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds. It was sent down with the trusted Spirit.
2:97 Say: "Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel, then know that he has sent it down into your heart with the permission of God, authenticating what is with him, and a guide and good news for the believers.
70:4 The angels and the Spirit ascend to Him in a day which is equivalent to fifty thousand years.
97:4 The angels and the Spirit come down in it with the permission of their Lord to carry out every matter.
78:38 The Day when the Spirit and the angels stand in line, none will speak unless the Almighty permits him and he speaks what is true.
2:98 "Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels, and His messengers, and Gabriel, and Michael, then so God is the enemy to the disbelievers.
66:4 If the two of you repent to God, then your hearts have listened. But if you band together against him, then God is his ally, and so are Gabriel and the righteous believers. Also, the angels are his helpers.
As a side note, in an earlier post in this thread, I mentioned that Iblis was not a malaika who became a jinn after disobeying God. Instead, Iblis was a jinn who became a kafir after disobeying God. The story of Iblis unmistakably shows that a kafir is someone who disobeys God (2:43). A kafir is not someone who disbelieves in God. Iblis disobeyed God while clearly believing in and being fully aware of God's existence. Therefore, a kafir is not a disbeliever, and kufr does not mean disbelief.
Further proof that a kafir is not someone who disbelieves in God can be found in verse 2:26, where those who are kafir (translated as rejectors) ask: "What does God intend with this example?" If the kafir did not believe in God, they would not ask, "What does God intend with this example"?
2:26 God does not shy away from putting forth the example of a mosquito, or anything above it. As for those who believe, they know that it is the truth from their Lord. As for the rejecters, they say: "What does God intend with this example?" He strays many by it, and He guides many by it; but He only strays by it the wicked.
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Thank you for sharing this and what your presenting is certainly one possible way to read those verses.
Previously I had known another possible meaning which is that mentioning two things together does not necessarily mean they are different species but simply different roles or aspects and in that sense I would lean more toward Parwez’s understanding where “Ruḥ” is described as the divine energy and Gibreel as the one who conveys it, so the distinction can be understood functionally rather than as a separate category of beings.
Ruḥ → the divine energy / process of revelation
Gibreel → the one who delivers that revelation
Malaika → the agents who carry out God’s commands
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Thank you for sharing this and what your presenting is certainly one possible way to read those verses.
Previously I had known another possible meaning which is that mentioning two things together does not necessarily mean they are different species but simply different roles or aspects and in that sense I would lean more toward Parwez’s understanding where “Ruḥ” is described as the divine energy and Gibreel as the one who conveys it, so the distinction can be understood functionally rather than as a separate category of beings.
Ruḥ → the divine energy / process of revelation
Gibreel → the one who delivers that revelation
Malaika → the agents who carry out God’s commands
@Fusion said in The Untold Reality: The Forgotten Difference Between Iblis and Shaytan:
Thank you for sharing this and what your presenting is certainly one possible way to read those verses.
Previously I had known another possible meaning which is that mentioning two things together does not necessarily mean they are different species but simply different roles or aspects and in that sense I would lean more toward Parwez’s understanding where “Ruḥ” is described as the divine energy and Gibreel as the one who conveys it, so the distinction can be understood functionally rather than as a separate category of beings.
Ruḥ → the divine energy / process of revelation
Gibreel → the one who delivers that revelation
Malaika → the agents who carry out God’s commands
Peace Fusion and all!
Thank you for your reply. It's true that when the Qur'an mentions two terms together (such as the malaika and the ruh), it doesn't necessarily mean they refer to two separate (distinct) kinds of beings/entities. Sometimes the Qur'an uses distinct terms to describe different roles or aspects of the same reality. However, a closer look at the Qur'anic verses about the malaika and the ruh provides significant evidence that indicates that the malaika and the ruh are separate (distinct) beings/entities. There are several Qur'anic verses that support this distinction.
The following observations, supported by Qur'anic verses, indicate that the malaika and the ruh are separate beings/entities:
- Gabriel brought the revelation of the Qur'an (2:97).
- The ruh brought the revelation of the Qur'an (16:102 and 26:193).
- Gabriel (the ruh) is mentioned as distinct from the malaika (2:98, 66:4, 70:4, 70:38, and 97:4).
In addition, these observations, supported by Qur'anic verses, further indicate that the malaika and the ruh are separate beings/entities:
- The malaika will not appear in the form of a human being (6:9).
- A ruh appeared before Mary in the form of a human being (19:17).
Even if the ruh mentioned in verse 19:17 refers to a different being than Gabriel, it doesn't disprove the notion that the malaika will not appear in the form of a human being (6:9). Nor does it negate the notion that Gabriel is distinct from the malaika (2:98, 66:4, 70:4, 70:38, and 97:4). That said, in verses 3:45-47 and 19:16-21, there is Qur'anic evidence that suggests that the malaika and the ruh could refer to the same being/entity in the story of Mary.
3:45-47 And the angels said: "O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him. His name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary. Honorable in this world and in the Hereafter, and from among those who are made close. And he will speak to the people from the cradle and to middle-age, and is from among the upright. She said: "My Lord, how can I have a son when no human being has been with me?" He said: "It is thus that God creates what He wills, when He decrees a command, He merely says to it 'Be,' and it is.
19:16-21 And relate in the Book, Mary, when she withdrew herself from her family to a place which was to the east. So she took a barrier to separate her from them, so We sent Our Spirit to her, and he took on the shape of a human being in all similarity. She said: "I seek refuge with the Almighty from you if you are righteous. He said: "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you the gift of a pure son. She said: "How can I have a son when no human being has been with me, nor have I desired such?
In verses 3:45-47, the malaika deliver a message to Mary, where they announce the birth of a son, which causes her to ask, "How can I have a son when no human being has been with me?" The answer to her question comes from God. However, in verses 19:16-21, Mary asks the same question (with almost the same arabic wording), but this time the answer to her question comes from the ruh, who had appeared to her in human form. This raises the following crucial questions. Are the malaika and the ruh the same being/entity in the context of the aforementioned verses? Or did Mary receive the same message (about the birth of a son) twice, once from the malaika and later (in the future) from the ruh, which might be a separate (distinct) being?
The idea that Gabriel is a malak (angel) comes from partially reliable sources such as the Hadith and the Bible. Since these sources are not fully reliable, they cannot be used when their messages contradict the Qur'an. In light of the fact that the Qur'an is the ultimate furqan (criterion) and is a self-explanatory scripture, external sources may only be considered when they confirm its message, without contradicting it at all. Any interpretation of Islam that contradicts the Qur'an's internal consistency or contradicts observable reality is false.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no explicit Qur'anic evidence that Gabriel (the ruh) is a malak. That said, I always do my best to keep an open mind. So I will remain receptive to the possibility that the ruh is a malak (angel) if clear Qur'anic evidence can be shown to support it. Is there any clear Qur'anic evidence that you think might support this possibility?
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You have already pointed out yourself that in the Mary narrative, the malaika and the ruh could refer to the same agent. Thats exactly where the issue sits.
If the same event can be described both ways then the distinction you are building from other verses can not be taken as conclusive proof of separate beings. It means the language itself allows overlap.
On 6:9, the verse is conditional if a messenger were made an angel he would be made in the form of a man. That does not establish a general rule that angels cannot appear in human form so using it to differentiate from 19:17 seems stretched.
So at that point, its not really “clear Quranic evidence” of separation rather one way of reading the terms. And thats fine, but it remains an interpretation, not something decisively established by the text.
