Archaeological evidence has confirmed the location of 'Ad and Thamud
-
Salaam all,
While the Quran states that every community had its own messengers, the only messengers mentioned by name in the Quran seem to be recent ones from Abraham's lineage, centred on the Semitic region of the Middle East- the Levant and Arabia, in particular Jordan. And living within the last 5,000 years.
For example, in 7.59-103 past prophets are named in succession: Noah, ‘Ad (Hud), Thamud (Salih), Lot, Midian (Shu’ayb), and Moses.
First Noah, verses 59-64, then Hud to the ppl of Ad, verses 65-72, and then Salih to Thamud, verses 73-79, and then Lot, verses 80-84, and then Shu’ayb to the ppl of Madyan, verses 85-93, and then Moses, verse 103 onwards
These are the prophets who were sent to specific communities only, not to all Mankind like Mohammad. But clearly not everyone died in the destruction of these communities since they are noted as being related.
Verse 69, Hud addresses Ad: وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ - and remember when He made you successors to the people of Noah.
And in verse 74, Salih addresses Thamud: وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ عَادٍ - and remember when He made you successors to the people of 'Ad.
So these prophets are inhabiting the same core region around the Levant / north Arabia.
Timeline based on above verses:
- Noah (BCE?)
- The unidentified Prophet and destroyed town in 23:31 following Noah
- 'Ad (Hud) - earliest archaeological evidence from Jordan Wadi Rum in 100-200 CE
- Thamud (Salih) - earliest archaeological evidence from 800 BCE
- Abraham (mentioned in 9:70 after Thamud
- Lot
- Midian (Shu'ayb)
- Moses - earliest archaeological evidence of the Hebrews is from 12-1500 BCE
Interestingly, in 9.70 past prophets/communities are listed again: Noah > Ad > Thamud > Abraham > Madyan and 'the overthrown cities' in plural (not dual) is interesting.
Regarding 'Ad, there has been a lot of hubbub in recent years within the Near Eastern archaeological community about Ahmad al-Jallad's statements on 'Ad. He has shown pretty conclusively that they lived around modern Wadi Ram (Iram in the Quran). Ancient inscriptions use both terms Iram and 'Ad in that area, dating to the early Christian period.
Archaeologically, the Thamud were mentioned by the Assyrians in 8th century BC and deported to Palestine. Then they appear in 2nd c. BC in Northwest Hejaz. In the 1st century BCE, Diodorus writes that the Red Sea coast of Arabia is inhabited by the Thamudeni. Then in Ruwafa temple 160-200 CE at Ruwafa (west of Tabuk in Saudi, near Aqaba). Then there is an inscription in Saudi from the 4th century CE (ie. around 300 years before Islam), that mentions a war between the tribes of Gshm and Thamud. Then in the 5th c. CE they are recorded as Byzantine military units in Egypt and Palestine. So Thamud don't fit the timeline neatly. Astonishingly, the Ruwafa temple is dedicated to the god 'lh (ilah). The surname al-Thamudi still exists today.
These are mentioned in several sources, such as Arabs and Empires Before Islam, ed. by Greg Fisher, and New Frontiers of Arabic Papyrology, by Sobhi Bouderbala, Sylvie Denoix, Matt Malczycki, and Irfan Shahid's Rome and the Arabs.But this means that verse 74 is factually correct - the Thamud inhabited the same region as 'Ad - northwest Arabia and southern Jordan. We have an archaeological reference to the people of 'Ad worshipping at the temple of Allat at Iram in southern Jordan around the 1st century CE. Not long afterwards the Thamud build the Ruwwafa temple in northwest Saudi, just south of Wadi Rum.
In Yonatan Adler's, "The Origins of Judaism: An Archaeological-Historical Reappraisal, he argues that there is no evidence prior to the mid 2nd century BCE of anyone knowing or keeping the laws of the Torah - Terminus ante quem of the practice of Judaism - the earliest evidence we have goes back to the middle of the 2nd century and no earlier. This means that judaism must've emerged either then or slightly earlier. He says it could've started hundreds of years earlier, but there is no evidence. There is a general consensus among scholars that judaism started in the Persian era, in the middle of the 5th century BCE. Meanwhile in the lecture The Rise of Ancient Israel and Other Problematic Entities, Prof. Ayelet Gilboa argues that the origins of ancient Israel lie somewhere in the 14th-12th century BCE, after the Bronze Age Collapse and the withdrawal of Egyptian forces from the Levant.
So to summarize the archaeological record -
- Egyptians withdraw from the Levant around the 12th century BCE and the first evidence emerges for a kingdom of Israel
- Judaism as a religion emerges around the 2nd century BCE.
- Christianity emerges
- The people of 'Ad occupy Wadi Rum in Jordan. Build a temple there around 100 CE
- The people of 'Ad disappear from the historical record. The Thamud, who have been around the region for hundreds of years, occupy the same area of southern Jordan/northern Saudi.
- Thamud leave the historical record around 300-400 CE.
This means that the Quranic timeline of Moses following Ad and Thamud is fundamentally flawed. And if the other prophets like Abraham and Lot and the people of Midian come after Thamud, that puts them only 200-300 years before Islam. Extremely recent. Crucially, verses 7:59-103 don't actually state that Lot and Moses come after Ad and Thamud. The only ones that are clearly indicated as coming after one another are Noah > Ad > Thamud.
So adjusted timeline:
- Abraham - 1200-1300 BCE. Hebrews coalesce as a nation and kingdom in Canaan after the Egyptian withdrawal from the Levant after the Bronze Age Collapse around 12th century BCE.
- Lot
- Midian (Shu'ayb)
- Moses - 2nd century BCE. Earliest evidence of the laws of the Torah being followed
- Noah (BCE?)
- The unidentified Prophet and destroyed town in 23:31 following Noah
- Jesus
- 'Ad (Hud) - earliest archaeological evidence from Jordan Wadi Rum in 100-200 CE - they build Ruwafa temple to the god 'ilah in 160 CE.
- Thamud (Salih) - earliest archaeological evidence from 800 BCE. They fight a war against the tribe Gshm in 4th century CE.
- Mohammad - 7th century CE
Another interesting but separate note is that in 2:87, it says that God sent many messengers after Moses. Not just 2. وَقَفَّيْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ - “and We caused to follow after him [Moses] the messengers”. Classical exegetes consider these to be David, Solomon, Elijah, Zachariah, etc.
- Edited to add some details on Judaism from various souces
-
Peace;
According to the Quran, Prophet Jesus was the nephew of Prophets Moses and Aaron. That is to say, he lived in their era.
https://forum.free-minds.org/topic/23782/jesus-was-the-nephew-of-prophets-moses-and-aaron
-
Peace ths and all!
This is an interesting and insightful post. I enjoyed reading it.
Are you familiar with the works of Fadel al-Rubaie? While I don't subscribe to all of his views, some of his research challenges conventional assumptions and is worth reading, especially for anyone studying early Islamic history. Like Kamal Salibi, al-Rubaie questions the conventional historical narrative about early Islamic history. He suggests that much of what is traditionally accepted may not be entirely accurate and advocates for a more critical, context-based understanding of early Islamic history. His works offers fresh perspectives that challenges conventional assumptions about early Islamic history.
ths, you might find Fadel al-Rubaie's research useful and valuable, as it offers a new lens through which to examine key issues in early Islamic history.
-
Salaam all,
While the Quran states that every community had its own messengers, the only messengers mentioned by name in the Quran seem to be recent ones from Abraham's lineage, centred on the Semitic region of the Middle East- the Levant and Arabia, in particular Jordan. And living within the last 5,000 years.
For example, in 7.59-103 past prophets are named in succession: Noah, ‘Ad (Hud), Thamud (Salih), Lot, Midian (Shu’ayb), and Moses.
First Noah, verses 59-64, then Hud to the ppl of Ad, verses 65-72, and then Salih to Thamud, verses 73-79, and then Lot, verses 80-84, and then Shu’ayb to the ppl of Madyan, verses 85-93, and then Moses, verse 103 onwards
These are the prophets who were sent to specific communities only, not to all Mankind like Mohammad. But clearly not everyone died in the destruction of these communities since they are noted as being related.
Verse 69, Hud addresses Ad: وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ قَوْمِ نُوحٍ - and remember when He made you successors to the people of Noah.
And in verse 74, Salih addresses Thamud: وَاذْكُرُوا إِذْ جَعَلَكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ مِنْ بَعْدِ عَادٍ - and remember when He made you successors to the people of 'Ad.
So these prophets are inhabiting the same core region around the Levant / north Arabia.
Timeline based on above verses:
- Noah (BCE?)
- The unidentified Prophet and destroyed town in 23:31 following Noah
- 'Ad (Hud) - earliest archaeological evidence from Jordan Wadi Rum in 100-200 CE
- Thamud (Salih) - earliest archaeological evidence from 800 BCE
- Abraham (mentioned in 9:70 after Thamud
- Lot
- Midian (Shu'ayb)
- Moses - earliest archaeological evidence of the Hebrews is from 12-1500 BCE
Interestingly, in 9.70 past prophets/communities are listed again: Noah > Ad > Thamud > Abraham > Madyan and 'the overthrown cities' in plural (not dual) is interesting.
Regarding 'Ad, there has been a lot of hubbub in recent years within the Near Eastern archaeological community about Ahmad al-Jallad's statements on 'Ad. He has shown pretty conclusively that they lived around modern Wadi Ram (Iram in the Quran). Ancient inscriptions use both terms Iram and 'Ad in that area, dating to the early Christian period.
Archaeologically, the Thamud were mentioned by the Assyrians in 8th century BC and deported to Palestine. Then they appear in 2nd c. BC in Northwest Hejaz. In the 1st century BCE, Diodorus writes that the Red Sea coast of Arabia is inhabited by the Thamudeni. Then in Ruwafa temple 160-200 CE at Ruwafa (west of Tabuk in Saudi, near Aqaba). Then there is an inscription in Saudi from the 4th century CE (ie. around 300 years before Islam), that mentions a war between the tribes of Gshm and Thamud. Then in the 5th c. CE they are recorded as Byzantine military units in Egypt and Palestine. So Thamud don't fit the timeline neatly. Astonishingly, the Ruwafa temple is dedicated to the god 'lh (ilah). The surname al-Thamudi still exists today.
These are mentioned in several sources, such as Arabs and Empires Before Islam, ed. by Greg Fisher, and New Frontiers of Arabic Papyrology, by Sobhi Bouderbala, Sylvie Denoix, Matt Malczycki, and Irfan Shahid's Rome and the Arabs.But this means that verse 74 is factually correct - the Thamud inhabited the same region as 'Ad - northwest Arabia and southern Jordan. We have an archaeological reference to the people of 'Ad worshipping at the temple of Allat at Iram in southern Jordan around the 1st century CE. Not long afterwards the Thamud build the Ruwwafa temple in northwest Saudi, just south of Wadi Rum.
In Yonatan Adler's, "The Origins of Judaism: An Archaeological-Historical Reappraisal, he argues that there is no evidence prior to the mid 2nd century BCE of anyone knowing or keeping the laws of the Torah - Terminus ante quem of the practice of Judaism - the earliest evidence we have goes back to the middle of the 2nd century and no earlier. This means that judaism must've emerged either then or slightly earlier. He says it could've started hundreds of years earlier, but there is no evidence. There is a general consensus among scholars that judaism started in the Persian era, in the middle of the 5th century BCE. Meanwhile in the lecture The Rise of Ancient Israel and Other Problematic Entities, Prof. Ayelet Gilboa argues that the origins of ancient Israel lie somewhere in the 14th-12th century BCE, after the Bronze Age Collapse and the withdrawal of Egyptian forces from the Levant.
So to summarize the archaeological record -
- Egyptians withdraw from the Levant around the 12th century BCE and the first evidence emerges for a kingdom of Israel
- Judaism as a religion emerges around the 2nd century BCE.
- Christianity emerges
- The people of 'Ad occupy Wadi Rum in Jordan. Build a temple there around 100 CE
- The people of 'Ad disappear from the historical record. The Thamud, who have been around the region for hundreds of years, occupy the same area of southern Jordan/northern Saudi.
- Thamud leave the historical record around 300-400 CE.
This means that the Quranic timeline of Moses following Ad and Thamud is fundamentally flawed. And if the other prophets like Abraham and Lot and the people of Midian come after Thamud, that puts them only 200-300 years before Islam. Extremely recent. Crucially, verses 7:59-103 don't actually state that Lot and Moses come after Ad and Thamud. The only ones that are clearly indicated as coming after one another are Noah > Ad > Thamud.
So adjusted timeline:
- Abraham - 1200-1300 BCE. Hebrews coalesce as a nation and kingdom in Canaan after the Egyptian withdrawal from the Levant after the Bronze Age Collapse around 12th century BCE.
- Lot
- Midian (Shu'ayb)
- Moses - 2nd century BCE. Earliest evidence of the laws of the Torah being followed
- Noah (BCE?)
- The unidentified Prophet and destroyed town in 23:31 following Noah
- Jesus
- 'Ad (Hud) - earliest archaeological evidence from Jordan Wadi Rum in 100-200 CE - they build Ruwafa temple to the god 'ilah in 160 CE.
- Thamud (Salih) - earliest archaeological evidence from 800 BCE. They fight a war against the tribe Gshm in 4th century CE.
- Mohammad - 7th century CE
Another interesting but separate note is that in 2:87, it says that God sent many messengers after Moses. Not just 2. وَقَفَّيْنَا مِن بَعْدِهِ بِالرُّسُلِ - “and We caused to follow after him [Moses] the messengers”. Classical exegetes consider these to be David, Solomon, Elijah, Zachariah, etc.
- Edited to add some details on Judaism from various souces
@ths said in Archaeological evidence has confirmed the location of 'Ad and Thamud:
This means that the Quranic timeline of Moses following Ad and Thamud is fundamentally flawed.
I think that since the Qur'an is the ultimate Furqan (criterion), it is the Qur'an that should confirm historical truth, rather than historical accounts confirm the Qur'an. As the final and unifying standard for all understanding and interpretation of historical truth, the Qur'an must guide how we approach historical discrepancies. The Qur'an, being the ultimate criterion, goes beyond the limitations of historical records, and it is through its divine guidance that we should interpret historical events.
So, I'm not sure whether I really agree with this part of your article, but the rest of your article is really good IMHO.
-
Some parts of the Quran do indicate chronology (like Ad after Noah and Thamud after Ad), but that doesn’t mean every sequence is chronological. Often, examples are grouped thematically unless the text explicitly states succession.
As a believer, I should take the Quran as the divine source of truth while fields like archaeology and history are constantly evolving and incomplete. So if there appears to be a mismatch, I would be cautious about concluding that the Quran is flawed. It may simply be that our current reconstruction of history is limited.
10:36 “Most of them follow nothing but conjecture; indeed, conjecture avails nothing against the truth.” -
Peace ths and all!
This is an interesting and insightful post. I enjoyed reading it.
Are you familiar with the works of Fadel al-Rubaie? While I don't subscribe to all of his views, some of his research challenges conventional assumptions and is worth reading, especially for anyone studying early Islamic history. Like Kamal Salibi, al-Rubaie questions the conventional historical narrative about early Islamic history. He suggests that much of what is traditionally accepted may not be entirely accurate and advocates for a more critical, context-based understanding of early Islamic history. His works offers fresh perspectives that challenges conventional assumptions about early Islamic history.
ths, you might find Fadel al-Rubaie's research useful and valuable, as it offers a new lens through which to examine key issues in early Islamic history.
@Ronin Thanks Ronin. Not familiar with Al-Ruba’is work, but I am familiar with Salibi. Unfortunately he has been widely criticized and disparaged by other historians. Also I think there is so much evidence that points to a northern Arabian / southern Jordanian / Palestinian nexus for all the events of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, as opposed to a southern Arabian origin.
