What is Ka’aba as per the Qur’an?

Shabir

Eid Mubarak to those who celebrate.

We are now heading towards Dhul-Hijjah of the Islamic Calendar, and many people will congregate in Makkah for the annual Hajj pilgrimage. This ritual is centred towards the Ka’aba and alleged sacrifices of Prophet Ibrahim.

We were told not to question any of the actions performed in Hajj, such as Tawaf, Safa-Marwa, Sa’i, Mina, Stoning the devils, kissing the stone, etc. ‘Blind following’ doesn’t sound like God’s injunction in the Qur’an. Many of the minor rituals are not even mentioned anywhere in the Qur’an.

In this light, I think it is important to scrutinize these rituals and see any of those aligns with the Qur’anic teachings.

If the Ka’aba in the Qur’an is not what we were made to believe, then the whole premiss of Hajj and Umra would collapse like a house of cards along with all the minor rituals attached to it. This is the dilemma that I am finding myself in after reading the following article.

We are told by Allah in the Quran, to study all words/ideas and follow the best of it (Q 39:18). If you are open to look at this topic from a broader perspective or just curious, I invite you to read the following: (This is extracted from www.Thequrantheuntoldtruths.com)

Is ‘Ka’ba’, the cube structure in Mecca?

The word ‘ka’ba’ has been used, in the Quran, only in 3 verses, and all these verses are found in Chapter 5, namely 5:6, 5:95, and 5:97. In verse 5:6, this word is used to indicate the ankles of man. There is no dispute between any of the translators of the Quran that the ka’ba mentioned in 5:6 does, in fact, mean ‘the ankles of man’.

O You who believe! When you stand up for the commitment of oath for matrimony (= kum-thum-ilas-solaa-ti), wash your faces and your forearms up to the elbows and rub your heads and wash your feet to the ankles (ka’bai-ni – plural-dual of ankle). If you have intimacy with your spouses, clean yourselves. But, if you are ill or traveling, or coming from the privy, or are in the post-coital state and find no water, then obtain (= tayam-mam) clean dry soil to clean your point of activity (= bi-wujuhi-kum = the focused area) and your hands (= aydiya-kum). God does not wish to place any difficulty upon you, but to make you clean and to perfect His blessings upon you, that you may be grateful. (5:6)

So, the ka’ba (sing.) in the above verse is ‘ankle’ and not a cube structure.

In order to contextualize the meaning of the word ka’ba in 5:95 and 5:97, we have to learn the 4 verses from 5:94 to 5:97. We will clearly see that these verses talk about hunting, its restrictions, and wildlife conservation.

Quran 5:94: O you who have believed, God will surely test you through something of the game (= Sai-dhi) that your hands and spears [can] reach, that God may make evident those who fear Him in privacy. And whoever transgresses thereafter, for him is a painful punishment.

Verse 5:94 is pretty straightforward. All translators are unanimous in their interpretation of this verse. Now, let’s review a common translation of verse 5:95 by Sahih International:

O you who have believed, do not kill game (sai-dha) while you are in the state of ihram (Hurumun – Root: Ha-Ra-Ma). And whoever of you kills it intentionally – the penalty is an equivalent from sacrificial animals to what he killed, as judged by two just men among you as an offering [to Allah] delivered to the Ka‘bah, or an expiation: the feeding of needy people or the equivalent of that in fasting, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. Allah has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns [to violation], then Allah will take retribution from him. And Allah is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution. (5:95)

As per the above interpretation and almost all other translators, ‘hurumun’ is Ihram’, ‘had-yan’ is an ‘offering’, ‘bhalighal-ka’bathi’ is ‘reaching the Ka’ba’, and ‘siyaman’ is ‘fasting’. The word ‘siyam’ is discussed in Chapter 24.

The word hurumun is from the root word ‘Ha-Ra-Ma’, which means ‘to prohibit’ or ‘to restrict’; it has been used in the Quran in many verses. Many people, whether they believe the Quran or not, are familiar with the meaning of the word Haram. The word hurumun, which they mistranslated, appears in 9:36 to indicate ‘restriction’ – the count of the months according to God is twelve, and four of them are restricted months (arba’atun Hurumun). How the word ‘hurumun’ in 9:36 suddenly changes its meaning from ‘restricted’ to ‘Ihram’ in 5:95 is a quandary.

The words ‘hurumun’ and ‘hurrima’ both appear in the next verse to indicate prohibition or restriction. Let’s review the interpretation by Sahih International.

5:96 Lawful to you is game from the sea (= sai-dhul-bahri) and its food as provision for you and the travellers, but forbidden (= hurrima) to you is game from the land (= sai-dhul-barri) as long as you are in the state of ihram (= hurumun). And fear Allah to whom you will be gathered.

We can clearly see that the above verse also talks about hunting (ie: game from sea and land). All the translators are consistent in interpreting the first part of the verse. However, as per most translators, hunting on land is forbidden when we wear the ‘Ihram’ or the pilgrim garb when we are in Mecca. I wonder how many people go to Mecca wearing the 2-piece white cloth that they call Ihram to engage in hunting with their bare hands? We can see the corruption here. The second part of the verse simply says that it is ‘forbidden (= hur-rima – Root: Ha-Ra-Ma) to you is game from the land during the period it is restricted (= huruman – Root: Ha-Ra-Ma)’. It doesn’t have the word ‘ihram’ mentioned anywhere in the verse. The word ‘Ihram’ is also not found anywhere in the Quran.

Here’s a summary to further clarify what it indicates in verse 5:96: while there are no restrictions on game from the sea, however, there are restrictions on game from land, i.e.: we are forbidden (= hurrima) to hunt land animals during the restricted (= hurumun) periods.

The word Had-yan comes from the root ‘Ha-Da-’, which means ‘to guide’. There are many verses where the derivatives of this root are used in the Quran. For example, Huda, Hudan, Hadya, Hadyan, Hadi, Hada Yahdi, always mean ‘to guide’ or its derivatives, but are never used to mean an ‘offering’. In verse 6:84, it states that ‘WE gave him Isaac and Jacob and WE guided them’ (= Hadayna – Root: Ha-Da-). In verse 6:90, God states that ‘Those were the ones guided by God’ (= Hada-llahu – Root: Ha-Da-). So, had-yan is not ‘offering’, but ‘to guide’ or derivatives thereof.

The word ‘bhaligha’ comes from the root ‘Ba-La-Gha’, which means ‘to reach (maturity) = to reach (its strength)’. For example, verse 4:6 states that ‘You shall test the orphans when they reach maturity for marriage’ (= bhalaghun-nikaha – Root: Ba-La-Gha).

In light of this clarification and understanding of the Quran, we can correctly interpret the verses from 5:94 to 5:96 as follows:

Quran 5:94: O you who have believed, God will surely test you through something of the game (Sai-dhi) that your hands and spears [can] reach, that God may make evident those who fear Him in privacy. And whoever transgresses thereafter, for him is a painful punishment.

Quran 5:95: O you who have believed, do not kill wildlife, which are restricted (= hurumun). And whoever of you kills it intentionally – the penalty is an equivalent of an animal to what he killed, determined (= had-yan – Root: Hu-Da = to guide) the maturity (= bhaligha) of its ankle (= Ka‘bati), as judged by two just men among you or an expiation: the feeding of needy people or self-discipline in abstention from hunting (= siyaman) to bear the burden of the penalty for his deed, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. God has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns (to violation), then God will take retribution from him. And God is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.

Quran 5:96: permitted to you is game from the sea and its food as provision for you and the travellers, but forbidden (= hur-rima – Root: Ha-Ra-Ma) to you is game from the land during the period it is restricted (= huruman – Root: Ha-Ra-Ma). And fear Allah to whom you will be gathered.

Once we give the correct meanings to the Quranic words, the verses start to make sense again, like putting the pieces together in a jigsaw puzzle. We can clearly see from the above 3 verses, the subject matter is about hunting, its restrictions, and wildlife conservation. There is no mention of a pilgrimage to Mecca, an offering, or wearing an Ihram. The word ‘ka’ba’ in verse 5:95 is ‘ankle’ and not the cube structure in Mecca.

Now let’s review verse 5:97 where the word ka’ba is mentioned again with regard to hunting.

God has set the ‘ankles’ (= ka’bata) a system sanctioned (= baytil-Harama) to be upheld for mankind, and the restricted period/months (= shahrul Harama), and guidelines (= hadya), and the indicators (= qolaa-ida). This is to let you know that God, He knows everything in the heavens and the earth and what is beneath the earth. And surely God is fully aware of everything. (5:97)

This interpretation is consistent with the 3 preceding verses, which talk about hunting, its restrictions, and wildlife conservation. For the usage of ‘baytul-Harami’ (= system sanctioned) in the Quran, please refer to Chapter 28. ‘Shahrul-Harama’ is not sacred months. It means restricted months/periods during which you shall not hunt certain wild animals. The word ‘hadya’ is not a ‘sacrificial animal’. Hadya comes from the root word Ha-da-, which means ‘to guide’ as explained above. The word ‘qalaa-ida’ is not garlands as most translators suggest. Why would you garland a wild animal? Qalaa-ida are the indicators for the hunters about the rules and restrictions of hunting, whatever way it is communicated to them.

Wildlife should be conserved and allowed to live according to God’s sanctioned system (= Baytul-harami). HE has created everything in the heavens and the earth in perfect balance (Q 55:1 – 55:12). Thus, hunting wildlife should be allowed only during a specific period to maintain this balance. Therefore, wildlife conservation is one of the deeds HE has sanctioned in the system (= Baytul-harami). Animals must not be killed unless they can survive on their own feet (ankles = ka’ba), characterizing maturity. Verses 1 to 4 of Chapter 5 are extensions to verses 5:94 – 5:97, which talk about the same subject of hunting, its restrictions, and wildlife conservation. Let’s have a look. These translations are extracted from the book, ‘Mental Bondage’.

5:1 O you who believe, you shall fulfill your covenant. Permitted for you is the meat of all livestock, except those recited to you. Hunting of game is not permitted when you are restricted (= hurumun).

5:2 O you who believe, do not violate God’s decrees (= sha’iral-lah), and the restricted months (= shahrul- Harama), and the guidance (= hadya), and the indicators (= qo-laa-ida) and the harmony of the restrictions in the system (= bai-tal-Harama) when seeking the grace and pleasure of God. But when they are permitted (= Halal-tum), you may hunt. Let not hatred provoke you of those who prevented you, in observing the sanctions in the consented decree (= a’nil- mas-jidil-Harami), and do not aggress. Cooperate with each other in good deeds and piety, and do not cooperate with those committing sins and aggression.

5:3 Restricted to you are the meat from the animals that die of themselves, blood, decaying meat, and food dedicated to other than God. Also, the animal that has been strangled to death, the animal struck by an object, the animal that dies from falling from a height, the animal that is gored to death, the animal that is partially eaten by a predator unless you have rescued it alive, the food dedicated to idols and meat divided by means of casting lots. These are abominations. Today, the disbelievers are in despair about your deen. Do not fear them and fear Me instead. Today, I have perfected the deen for you and completed My favour upon you, and I decree Islam as the deen for you.
[Khinziri = Rotten meat. This is discussed further in Chapter 31.]

5:4 They ask you what is permitted for them. Tell them, “Permitted for you are all the good things that the dogs you trained catch for you according to what was taught by God to you.” You may eat what they catch for you. And mention God’s name over it. You shall observe God, God is most strict in reckoning.

The message in 5:2 is repeated in 5:97 to emphasize the significance of the restrictions on hunting wildlife. Once the ban is lifted (when they are permitted – Halal-tum), we may hunt. It’s all about conservation law.

It is important that the fine for whoever violates the indicators of hunting restrictions (= qo-laa-ida) and knowingly kills an animal when it is restricted (= Hurumun) be reasonable in order to make him feel the consequences of his actions for killing that animal. It is the responsibility of 2 just individuals (ie: wildlife inspectors) to determine the maturity (= bhaligha) of the killed animal by its ankle (= ka’bathi) - 5:95.

In summary, verses 5:1 – 5:4 and again 5:94 – 5:97 talk about hunting wildlife, its guidance (= hadya), indicators (= qalaa-ida), and restrictions (= hurumun). It doesn’t even remotely mention anything about a pilgrimage to Mecca or wearing a pilgrim garb called ‘ihram’. The word ‘ka’ba’ mentioned in verses 5:6, 5:95, and 5:97 refers to the ankle, not the cube structure in Mecca.

If ka’ba means ankle as per the verses discussed above, then what is the cube structure in the center of the Mosque in Mecca? Why do Muslims so passionately bow down and prostrate to it at least 5 times a day and circumambulate 7 times during pilgrimage to it? What is the significance of the ‘black stones’ that they call ‘Hajr-al-aswad’ attached to the cube structure? There is absolutely no mention of ‘black stones’ in the ‘fully detailed and clear’ Quran. However, the Quran mentions that the pagan Arabs used to worship stone idols even before the Quran was revealed. God mentions the names of these idols as Al-lat, Al-uzza and Manat, in verse 53:19-20 of the Quran. Could these be those idols? What is the male footprints carved on a copper plate, in a glass enclosure, doing in the vicinity of the cube structure? Is it possible that the pagan Arabs used the cube structure, black stones, and footprints as a smokescreen to continue their practices and make millions of gullible people worship the stone idols? These are a few valid questions. I will leave it up to you to find the answers.

Fusion

Context is essential: root meanings can guide us but if they are taken in isolation without considering how the Quran uses those words across different contexts and passages it can end up reshaping the meaning rather than uncovering it.

Shabir

@Fusion
Dear Fusion,

I completely agree with you that "Context is essential".

Isn't the context in the article about 'ankle' with regard to hunting and conservation laws? How could a 'pilgrimage' fit in there? Appologize if I missed your point.

Fusion

While 5:94/96 clearly discusses hunting 5:97 brings in terms like Bayt alHaram, shahr alharam, hadya, and qalaid, which are not confined to hunting alone and are used elsewhere in the Quran within a broader framework.

So the context doesn’t seem limited to wildlife regulation only ratherit appears to connect a specific ruling (hunting restrictions) to an already established, wider system.

That’s why I feel we have to be careful not to narrow the context to one theme in isolation, especially when the same terms carry a consistent and interconnected usage across the Quran.

Wakas

5:95 O you who believe, do not kill any game while you are restricted; and whoever of you kills it deliberately, then recompense is value similar to what was killed of the livestock, judging by two equitable persons from you, an offering/gift reaching the base/projection (al kaabah)* or expiation feeding needy people, or compensation/equivalent that in fast/abstinence; that he may taste the consequence of his deed. God forgives what has passed, and whoever returns then God will take retribution from him. God is Severe, Owner of retribution.
5:96 Lawful for you is the game of the sea and its food is provision for you and for the travelers; and forbidden for you is the game of the land as long as you are under restriction; and be conscious of God the one to whom you will be gathered.
5:97 God has made the base/projection (al kaabah) the inviolable shelter, a standing/management/support for the people, and the restricted/inviolable month, and the gift/offering, and the prefects/repositories; that is so you may know that God knows what is in the heavens and what is in the earth, and that God is aware of all things.
5:98 Know that God is powerful in retribution, and that God is Forgiving, Merciful.
5:99 Not on the messenger except the conveyance, and God knows what you reveal and what you conceal.

Note that currently in the city of Makkah no offerings/gifts are brought to the cuboid called Kaabah.

To clarifiy, according to the Arabic, in 5:97 it says "God made the base/projection/kaabah: the inviolable shelter, a standing/management/qiyaaman for the people. (He also made) the inviolable month, the gift/offering and prefects/repositories: (qiyaaman) for the people".
The word "qiyaaman" (root: QWM) seems to have a core meaning of "to be/make straight". If we read the occurrences of this word in AQ we find that it can mean either: physical standing, and, metaphorical standing, i.e. maintain/support/establish/upstanding. If we look at 4:5, which is similar to 5:97, as an object (e.g. wealth) is described as "qiyaaman" for others, it means a "means of support" / "management" / "maintenance" then these meanings seems to fit best in 5:97. The implication is that whatever is "qiyaaman" helps people to stand upright i.e. support/maintain/establish them.
The end of 5:97 gives us the reason for what came before: "that is so you may know that God knows what is in heavens and what is in the earth". This reminder suggests these regulations have some insight into our own selves, e.g. our actions during this period, our provision requirements, the environment we live in, and when we experience such a setup we may realise the knowledge and insight God has into this and our existence.

Interestingly, if the interpretation is that we have an area wherein restrictions are enforced, either generally and/or for the HaJJ, then that area must have a spatial/geographical limit/boundary. This makes logical and practical sense. Thus, my view on "al kaabah" is that it likely refers to an area/region. Based on the CAD meanings, either a base/valley, or an area raised (in relation to surrounding terrain). I mainly say this because it is clear in AQ that certain restrictions are in place in the inviolable months and HaJJ is taking place somewhere, thus it is a logical necessity to have such an area demarcated, hence the "al kaabah" reference.
Where this specific area is may or may not be important for us now. For example, 27:91 and 5:97 say God made such an area inviolable thus one could argue who are we to change it, thus its location should be kept as is (this assumes this location is known and correct, e.g. current city of Makkah). However one could argue that the position of the shelter in 22:26 is one wherein no partner is associated with God, and since the messenger of Quran followed the example of the first shelter setup by Abraham (who is unlikely to have been in the region of Makkah) one could re-institute this model at one's locality, wherever that may be.
There are also other considerations, e.g. is a certain place more special than other places, would this create discrimination by proximity, are the actions and goals more/less important than a special location, does Makkah today pass the criteria of not associating partners with God? etc. These issues issue may require further consideration.

There is just-recompense (qisas) for violating the restrictions/sanctions/hurrumat [2:194], but not for violating the sha3air. This suggests that the restriction one is under in 5:2 and 5:95-96 refers to the restrictions during the restricted/inviolable months, and not only during when one is undertaking HaJJ. In fact HaJJ is not mentioned in chapter 5.

from
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html

Fusion

The issue is not what these words can mean individually, but rather how they are used together across the Quran.

Terms like al-Kabah, Bayt al-Haram, shahr al-haram, hadya, and qalaid consistently appear as part of a connected framework not as abstract or interchangeable concepts.

So reducing al-Kabah to a general area or flexible region seems difficult to reconcile with that broader consistency.

Just my take.

Ronin

Peace all,

Very interesting discussion. Personally, I don't have much to add here, as my knowledge of this topic is limited, since I have studied it very little from the perspective of the Qur'an. Therefore, I would prefer to listen to your perspectives on this matter and learn from the members whose contributions here are interesting and insightful. I think some members have raised very important points. Although I don't have much to contribute to the discussion in this thread at the moment, I would like to mention some things that I think are related to the topic at hand, as well as to any Qur'anic discussion for that matter.

In theory, countless readers and students of the Qur'an support the view that the Qur'an is fully detailed, clear, complete, comprehensive, and sufficient to explain itself, which aligns with the notion that "scripture interprets scripture." But in practice, many rely heavily on external sources like tafsir (commentaries), hadith, the Bible, Arabian folklore, and inherited and ancestral traditions, as well as other sources that often cloud or distort its original message. The truth is that all students and readers of the Qur'an (including myself) have been unconsciously shaped by external sources beyond it, often without realizing it, and removing those influences from the mind is no overnight feat, but rather a deliberate journey where we must battle and overcome external influences to reclaim the Qur'an's unadulterated message.

Despite the Qur'an's unmistakable assertion of its self-sufficiency in several of its verses, the aforementioned external sources play a significant role in its interpretation and understanding. To uncover the true version of Islam, all these external influences must be set aside. They act like layers of dust or fog that hide the Qur'an's true message. Only by removing these layers completely can the message of the Qur'an be seen in its pure and untainted form, which might lead to the emergence of a second golden age of Islam.

However, to set aside all these influences and reveal the true version of Islam, a "monumental task" lies ahead of us. The good news is that this aim is achievable. The bad news is that this aim might take decades, if not centuries, to fully accomplish. Unfortunately, due to the current lack of effort and commitment toward this aim among readers and students of the Qur'an, I'm concerned that it will take several centuries before this vision is fully realized.

Fusion

I think the matter is more nuanced than simply saying the Quran is fully detailed, therefore nothing outside it has any role whatsoever in helping people understand or live it.

The Quran does describe itself in very powerful terms, and rightly so. It presents itself as guidance, clarification, criterion, mercy, and a reminder. But that does not automatically mean every individual in every time and place has always had equal access, equal capacity, equal literacy, equal language ability, equal leisure, and equal circumstances to study it the way many of us can today.

We are living in an age where a person can sit at home, open multiple translations, search roots, compare verses instantly, read historical discussions, and revisit passages repeatedly. That is a luxury many earlier generations simply did not have. For most ordinary people in earlier times, religion was not encountered as a private research project. It was encountered through recitation, communal life, sermons, practice, teachers, family, and the living moral atmosphere around them. Many may have known only portions of the Quran well, grasped its central truths, believed in God, lived by the message as best as they could, and died without ever conducting the kind of textual analysis that modern readers can do.

So when we speak of the Quran being complete, we should be careful not to turn that into a modern intellectual abstraction detached from how human beings actually receive guidance.

The Quran itself does not present engagement with revelation as a robotic or purely self-contained exercise. It repeatedly calls people to reflect, ponder, reason, and use their intellect. It also says to the Messenger that he was sent so that he may clarify to people what was revealed to them. It also acknowledges that within the revelation there are verses that are foundational and others that can become points of dispute or require deeper reflection. That alone should be enough to show that “the Quran is sufficient” does not mean “no explanation is ever needed” or “every reader in every era will derive everything directly and equally from the text without mediation.”

To say this is not to defend blind traditionalism. Nor is it to place tafsir, hadith, inherited law, or historical reports on the same level as the Quran. It is simply to recognize that revelation entered human history, addressed human communities, and was lived by human beings with changing conditions, languages, institutions, and problems. Once that is acknowledged, then explanation, interpretation, ijtihad, and even historical memory all have a place not as masters over the Quran, but as human attempts to understand and apply it.

In fact, I would argue that many of the problems in Muslim history did not come only from “too much outside material,” but also from the urge to reduce divine guidance into a rigid system of literal implementation without sufficient attention to purpose, context, moral reasoning, and the human condition. The Quran gives principles, direction, warnings, values, and a moral worldview. It is not a mechanical codebook for every conceivable scenario in every century. Human beings are not robots, and the Quran does not address them as robots. It addresses conscience, reason, justice, gratitude, restraint, mercy, and accountability.

So yes, the Quran is central. Yes, inherited fog should be questioned. But clearing the fog should not lead us to another extreme where history, lived transmission, explanation, and human interpretive effort are treated as if they have no role at all. The better approach, in my view, is to keep the Quran as the highest authority while still recognizing that people across history have understood and lived it through a combination of revelation, explanation, community, intellect, and circumstance.

That balance seems closer to both the Quran and human reality.

The danger is not only in adding to the Quran from outside, but also in imagining that the Quran was meant to function in history without explanation, reflection, lived practice, or human judgment. The text itself does not support that kind of reduction.

Shabir

Dear @Fusion and @Wakas,

You mentioned that Bayt alHaram, shahr alharam, hadya, and qalaida, are not confined to hunting alone. That is true. However, the verses 5:94-97 and 5:1-3 in the subject matter clearly talks in the Context of hunting. Therefore, we should look at those terms in the context of hunting, and not as rituals. The usage of the meaning of these terms in the main article and the book are consistent with the meaning in other places of the Quran (I can vouch as I read the whole book).

As pointed out in the article, Shahr-haram is ‘restricted month’. Haram doesn’t mean ‘sacred’ or ‘inviolable’ as @Wakas stated. Baytul-haram is ‘sanctioned system’ and not ‘sacred house’. This is the ‘system = bayt’ Prophet Abraham established for mankind (2:125) as stated in the article I presented here: https://forum.free-minds.org/topic/15893/bakka-is-here/29?_=1774312677736

The Quran has used ‘hadyan’ for guidance, and never as ‘gift’ or an ‘offering’. The word ‘Qalaa-ida’ perfectly means ‘indicators’ when you look at the context of these verses.

As per @Wakas interpretation of verses 5:95-99, the word ‘Hurumun’ is ‘restricted’ in one verse, and ‘inviolable’ in another. The word ka’aba is ’base/projection’. Please refer to the main article for the usage of ka’aba in 5:95 and 5:97. The word ka’aba is only used 3 times in Chapter 5 of the Quran, and nowhere else. In verse 5:6 ka’abaini (dual - plural) is used for both ankles of a man. The singular is ka’aba, an ankle. I can clearly see it as ‘ankle’ of an animal to check its maturity (baaligha) in the context of hunting in 5:95 and 5:97 as explained in the article.

Hunting is as old as humanity. It takes place all over the world throughout the year. The rules that govern hunting in Chapter 5 of the Quran does not restrict a place. According to your responses and many of the regular Quran translations, it gives a feeling that hunting only reserved to Makka during a pilgrimage (just about 10 days). According to that understanding, if someone kills an animal by mistake, the hunter should send another animal as a gift to ka’aba in Makka.

When you look at the wider use of hunting, the interpretation you have given doesn’t make much sense. It doesn’t give a clear understanding as to what these verses are talking about. I don’t know whether it's just me. It may be helpful, if you can elaborate a bit more with examples of usages of those terms from other verses.

These are straight forward verses as I understand. It should not be that hard to understand.

Fusion

I see your point about the immediate context of that verse being hunting and I agree that part is clear.

My concern is that 5:97 seems to expand beyond just hunting by bringing in terms like Bayt al-Haram, shahr al-haram, hadya, and qalaid, which are used elsewhere in the Quran within a broader and connected framework. So it feels less like everything is being defined purely by hunting, and more like a specific ruling is being linked back to an already established system.

Thats why I am cautious about redefining all these terms solely within one local context, especially when their usage across the Quran appears more consistent and interconnected.

Just sharing how I am seeing it.

Shabir

Dear @Fusion:

My concern is that 5:97 seems to expand beyond just hunting by bringing in terms like Bayt al-Haram, shahr al-haram, hadya, and qalaid, which are used elsewhere in the Quran within a broader and connected framework. So it feels less like everything is being defined purely by hunting, and more like a specific ruling is being linked back to an already established system.

Verse 5:97 does NOT expand beyond hunting. 5:97 talks only about hunting. The topic of hunting starts from 5:94 and run up to 5:99. I reproduced 5:97 below.

God has set the ‘ankles’ (= ka’bata) a system sanctioned (= baytil-Harama) to be upheld for mankind, and the restricted period/months (= shahrul Harama), and guidelines (= hadya), and the indicators (= qolaa-ida). This is to let you know that God, He knows everything in the heavens and the earth and what is beneath the earth. And surely God is fully aware of everything. (5:97)

The terms such as Bayt al-Haram, shahr al-haram, hadya, and qalaid are translated there. When Bayt-as-haram is used elsewhere, it has the same meaning as ‘sanctioned system’. Shar-Haram is ‘restricted period’. Hadya is a derivative of HaDa, and means ‘to guide’, never meant ‘gift’. Qalaida is used only in 5:2 and 5:97, and it means ‘indicators’, never meant ‘garland’. All these terms are explained in the article. If you read it a couple of times, you would have understood it. I read it many times and cross-referenced with the Quran to understand their usages in other verses to make sure whether it is correct.

You stated that these terms are used elsewhere in the Quran within a broader and connected framework. Can you give some examples? How can you “feel less likely everything is being defined purely by hunting” without giving any example to support what you are talking about?

Wakas

peace Shabir,
Can you clarify the following:

what is your evidence hunters/farmers or ancient cultures used the ankle bone/joint to determine the quality/health/age of a livestock animal?
what is the most common methods used by them for (1) above?
did you actually read all of my article https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html ?
you seem quick to point out alleged inconsistency in my work (HRM/inviolable/restricted) when in your work you use the same word in opposite meanings lol. HRM as restricted V sanctioned = why is that?

Shabir

Dear @Wakas

what is your evidence hunters/farmers or ancient cultures used the ankle bone/joint to determine the quality/health/age of a livestock animal?

what is the most common methods used by them for (1) above?

did you actually read all of my article https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html ?

you seem quick to point out alleged inconsistency in my work (HRM/inviolable/restricted) when in your work you use the same word in opposite meanings lol. HRM as restricted V sanctioned = why is that?

Quran 5:95: O you who have believed, do not kill wildlife, which are restricted (= hurumun). And whoever of you kills it intentionally – the penalty is an equivalent of an animal to what he killed, determined (= had-yan – Root: Hu-Da = to guide) the maturity (= bhaligha) of its ankle (= Ka‘bati), as judged by two just men among you or an expiation: the feeding of needy people or self-discipline in abstention from hunting (= siyaman) to bear the burden of the penalty for his deed, that he may taste the consequence of his deed. God has pardoned what is past; but whoever returns (to violation), then God will take retribution from him. And God is Exalted in Might and Owner of Retribution.

5:97 God has set the ‘ankles’ (= ka’bata) a system sanctioned (= baytil-Harama) to be upheld for mankind, and the restricted period/months (= shahrul Harama), and guidelines (= hadya), and the indicators (= qolaa-ida). This is to let you know that God, He knows everything in the heavens and the earth and what is beneath the earth. And surely God is fully aware of everything. (5:97)

These verses talk about hunting, not farming. In 5:95, ankle is to be used as a guide (= hadyan) to check the maturity (= balagha) of the animal that is being killed. What it means is whether the animal you killed can stand and survive on its own (ie: whether its ankle matured enough to survive on its own). In 5:97: God has set the ankle, a system sanctioned. What it means is that God has set the ankle as the determining factor of an animal that is allowed to be killed (whether it can survive on its own).

I am a novice hunter, and I know that the law allows us only to kill animals that are matured. If someone kills an animal that is too young (or any that are restricted), he/she has to pay a penalty. In 5:95 and 5:97 God tells us the same thing. These hunting rules are identified in the verse as ‘qalaida’ (= indicators) for the hunters. There indicaters are made known to us via email, website, and also posted signs in certain hunting grounds. As for me, these verses are very much clear and make total sense. Even without being aware of these verses, most countries have implemented rules that are aligned with the Quran. We should be proud to talk about this to non-believers.

See 1. above
I checked the link. There are so many articles. If you can tell me which one to read, I will be happy to have a look.
Please note the above is not my work. I posted it here because I did a deep dive on it, and it makes total sense. That’s why I am defending it here. I understand that people in this forum are deep divers too. So, I thought, it would be a good idea to share it with everyone. I am sure, if you read a few times and try to comprehend it, you will agree with me.

With regards to the inconsistency with HRM: Well, everyone knows the word HRM means prohibited, sanctioned, or restricted. It has not been used to mean ‘sacred’ or ‘inviolable’. The Quran uses Qudus to mean sacred (59:23; 62:1). I just wanted to point out the inconsistency - no offence. Besides, the interpretation you gave for 5:95 and 5:97 is not clear and did not make much sense. It was inconclusive, that’s all. I will read it again.

Ronin

@Fusion said in What is Ka’aba as per the Qur’an?:

The danger is not only in adding to the Quran from outside, but also in imagining that the Quran was meant to function in history without explanation, reflection, lived practice, or human judgment. The text itself does not support that kind of reduction.

Peace Fusion,

I think we agree on far more than we disagree, and our differences are just a small part of the bigger picture. My detailed response to your post is in a separate thread. Please check out the OP there.

https://forum.free-minds.org/topic/24251/the-self-explanatory-nature-of-the-qur-an

good logic

GOD gave us the faculties, instinct and scripture. GOD taught us /Adam all the basics of our needs that exist naturally.
Therefore we are responsible /required to use all these for working out /living our life.
Qoran goes/is required to be used with our existing knowledge,our inbuilt instinct and the use of our faculties.
Therefore Qoran alone does not mean forget what we learn altogether, forget our instinct and do not use the faculties and just use Qoran.
Also using everything else except GOD s message is as incomplete a task as working in the dark and not using some light to see the whole picture
Qoran says to us listen to GOD and each other,including our instinct and our faculties , then follow what is "best" from the whole combination..
Otherwise how can GOD hold each one responsible for using the hearing,the vision and the brain given to them?
Qoran also tells that GOD s words have priority and authority( because of His unique status and knowledge. i.e Who tells you the truth better than GOD? And Follow these best instructions/commands/... .
Our understanding has to come from all the combinations that we use, putting GOD at the top of the list is only one of them ,although the most important.
So we check history, Science and compare and keep learning with GOD s help and support.
GOD bless you all.
Peace.

Wakas

Dear shabir,
It's possible you didn't understand my questions.

you claim they can check if the animal can stand (and this is linked to the ankle somehow) - so is this God's sanctioned system you're referring to = the ability of the animal to stand up?
If so your view is refuted by the verse because it says it should be similar to what was killed. The mere ability to stand would give a massive range in age/quality of an animal e.g. ranging from few weeks to years.
Thus you are forced to find something specific about ankle use. Ideally clear and documented.
you never answered
I provided a direct link to one article so I'm not sure why you think there were so many. Here it is again:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
No offence taken. You never answered though.

You claimed to have done a "deep dive" but I don't see that yet.
I havent even scrutinised the content yet. I'm just asking some basic preliminary questions.

Shabir

Dear @Wakas

It's possible you didn't understand my questions.

Looks like I have misunderstood your 1st questions. Let me try again.

To check the maturity of a wild animal, observe the thickness of its ankles and appearance of the legs. Mature animals typically have thicker, more muscular legs, while younger animals will have thinner, tapering legs that show more definition.

See 1
I will find time to read it.
As I mentioned earlier, HRM and its derivatives are prohibition, restriction, and sanction (= as in restriction or penalty imposed to enforce compliance).

Wakas

It seems you have to incorporate the leg because the ankle joint tells us little, and to my knowledge, has never been used (in any significant way) to determine the age/quality of a livestock animal. Seems impractical and weak.

Shabir

Dear @Wakas,

It seems to me that you have already made up your mind, and whatever I tell will make no difference to you.

However, for me, it has become clear that the verses 5:94-97 specifically talk about hunting and its regulations, giving the ankle as the basic method to determine the maturity of an animal. Of course, this is not the only way, but just the basic.

As we know, the Quran was not given to teach us the anatomy of animals, but rather to guide us. Going into detail about the different methods of determining the maturity of an animal would deviate from the book's intended message.

Why confuse us with different methods, when one will work just as fine?

Wakas

You are incorrect in your assumption. I go with the evidence. So far you presented ZERO evidence the ankle was used in any significant way, or even how it is a good method. Now you call it a "basic method" - so basic, no-one ever used it?
Secondly, I havent even scrutinised the translation you provided. I'm actually familiar with this understanding, read it many years ago in Aidid Safar's work. It's been discussed here before. Please use the forum search function.

And in case it is not blatantly obvious, I'm not saying its incorrect, I'm saying evidence thus far is weak.