The Paradox
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Can god make 1 + 1 = anything but 2????????
The numbers '1' and '2' exist becuase God created them, and he also created the logic that makes double 1 = 2. He didn't just make physical things, he made logic, emotion...
if he wished he could create logic which would result in 1 + 1 = 3, and there would be nothing wrong with it, we believe that that is the right logic, becuase it is the only logic we can understand, God however creates and understands all logic.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Mathematics cannot be changed. Mathematics just is.
What I'm gettng at, is that I see God as mathematics.
Thus the concept within the pages of the Quran, of finding a balance to your life, is very simly explainable using Mathematics, i.e.......
-1<0<1
Where 0 is the balance.
Let me post some more.
Your hypothesis of making 1+1=3 be correct logic is false.
What you have merely done is change the definition of 3.
You can never make 1 + 1 =3.
It will always equal 2.
You see mathematics is the universal language, mathematics is the TRUTH[/b.
And thus mathematics is the essence of god.
Judgement, balance are all contained within mathematics.
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Peace Esimsek,
You see mathematics is the universal language, mathematics is the TRUTH.
What of things that cannot be calculated, nor even grasped, such as the very existence of memory? The only theory I've heard that begins to express this complexity if the holographic theory, which has little to do with math, but much to do about frequency.
Can falling in love be calculated? How about a person's reaction to trauma?
And thus mathematics is the essence of god.
I would be careful with my wording. Mathematics is but one layer of many, many layers that we call reality.
Judgement, balance are all contained within mathematics.
I fail to see how judgement is calculated. Please provide an example. The Qur'an tells us that the good outweighs the bad. Are you suggesting that God uses a formula to make this decision?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tay,
Brother/Sister (?) ,
You are not thinking outside the square.
You are thinking materialistically.
What are the notions of mathematics?????
It doesn't change, it just is.
Every being understands the concept of mathematics but may not realise it.
As far as physical creation goes, everything in this universe is because of mathematics.
Mathematics governs the physical, chemical laws in this universe.
Quantum physics will soon enough be explained by Mathematics aswell (I believe).
On a theological basis, mathematics justifies a lot in this world.
Judgement you question, judgement you weigh the sin with the good. Yes it isn't necessarily in a numerical weigh, but yet the premise is maths.
See what I was originally getting at.
We believe that Allah just is.
what is Allah?
Allah is the truth (as well as many other things).
The truth is not created, it just is.
The spiritual, emotional, and theological things in this world always were, they were never created. The only thing created was phsyical means.
We say Allah created good and bad (not Quranically speaking, but generally for all human kind). No, Allah did not create good and bad, they always were. All emotions, feelings are already known by Allah, Allah did not spend time thinking about what to create, they just were.
The only thing that encompasses time is the phsyical realm.
That is why I say maths is god. Maths is a truth, it can never be changed, it just is. The moment God existed, so did maths, so did love, so did hate, so did justice, so did truth, etc.
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Peace Esimsek.
---?Your hypothesis of making 1+1=3 be correct logic is false.
What you have merely done is change the definition of 3.
You can never make 1 + 1 =3.
It will always equal 2.?---
Chill man! It isn?t my hypothesis, all I?m saying is that God created this language of mathematics for us, and if he wanted, the logic that goes with it could be something totally different, or even non-existent (i.e. maths wouldn?t exist if he chose to do so).
I understand you when you say that 1+1 can never equal more than two, but all I am saying is that this is because of the logical thinking processes God has built into us. The way I see it, we can imagine what it is like to be, say, a horse, by thinking that we have four legs etc., but we can never quite fully understand that because we aren?t horses. Similarly, we can understand that if God wanted he could create logic such as that (1+1) > 2, but because we don?t have logic that is compatible with another mathematical system, we cannot understand how 1+1=3.
---?The spiritual, emotional, and theological things in this world always were, they were never created. The only thing created was physical means.?---
I would disagree here, things like emotions exist only because the physical thing exists, there is a human, so there is emotion, and the emotion was created as part of the human, so its not just physical things that were created. Nothing would exist if the God hadn?t bothered to go out and make it all.
I enjoyed the debate, but I?m out now.
Peace.
Natu on the line. -
Peace esimsek100,
You can never make 1 + 1 =3.
It will always equal 2.
How about 1 spermatozoa (male cell) + 1 ovum (female cell) = 3 zygote (triplets) for example, a divine calculated phenomenon!
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Can god make 1 + 1 = anything but 2????????
Peace all,
1 + 1 = 10 is also correct, in a binary system (base 2) used generally in computers.
1 + 1 = 2 is correct for whichever system of counting with a base greater than 2.
Commonly, we are counting with a system based on 10, maybe because we have 10 fingers.
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Peace Esimsek,
Brother/Sister (?)
Brother
You are not thinking outside the square.
I've been accused of a lot of things, but this is a first. I'm usually accused of the opposite. It's refreshing.
What are the notions of mathematics?????
I'm not sure what you're asking me. A notion is a belief/opinion.
It doesn't change, it just is.
Surely math is not alone as something that doesn't change. There are many things that do not change.
Every being understands the concept of mathematics but may not realise it.
Every being also understands the concept of love, or the concept of creativity.
As far as physical creation goes, everything in this universe is because of mathematics.
You've failed to establish this.
Mathematics governs the physical, chemical laws in this universe.
I disagree. Mathematics does not govern anything, it only measures and calculates. Math is a language of logic, a means for the mind to understand. The universe does not rely on math, but math is one way, of many, to describe the universe.
Quantum physics will soon enough be explained by Mathematics aswell (I believe).
That may be, or it may not, but either way, it is still an explanation, not a governing force.
On a theological basis, mathematics justifies a lot in this world.
To justify and to govern is completely different. This is my point.
judgement you weigh the sin with the good. Yes it isn't necessarily in a numerical weigh, but yet the premise is maths.
It was explained this way because these are concepts the human mind can grasp. Just as heaven is described as a garden with rivers of honey...these are concepts we can relate to. Do you really think we'll be dancing around in gardens with rivers of honey in heaven?
what is Allah?
Allah is the truth (as well as many other things).
The truth is not created, it just is.
The spiritual, emotional, and theological things in this world always were, they were never created. The only thing created was phsyical means.OK, so why limit the desciption of the essence of Allah as math. Again, math is just one way of many.
We say Allah created good and bad (not Quranically speaking, but generally for all human kind)
I don't say that.
No, Allah did not create good and bad, they always were.
Allah always was.
All emotions, feelings are already known by Allah, Allah did not spend time thinking about what to create, they just were.
It seems you know alot about what Allah was or was not thinking. I mean no offense, but I advise you to rethink your wording.
The only thing that encompasses time is the phsyical realm.
Time is an illusion, as is the physical realm.
That is why I say maths is god.
You've failed to logically draw this conclusion.
Maths is a truth, it can never be changed, it just is.
Same with gravity, and electricity, and heat, and light. These can all be measured by math, but math does not govern them. Just as a mountain can be described by 35 different people in 35 different languages, the same can be said of the universe. Math is a language, a method of communicating concepts.
The moment God existed, so did maths, so did love, so did hate, so did justice, so did truth, etc.
You seem to agree that math is just one of many layers of reality. Perhaps we're just splitting hairs. wink
Peace,
Tay -
Peace all,
Natu, relax, I wasn't having a go at you. Just merely pointing out that the logic you described was false.
Mathematics is just a name we give to a process. I think you're arguing along the wrong lines here. It isn't just a language but a definition.
I mean the same way we say that there is one God, is the same as saying mathematical rules define this universe.
Peace Danish,
lol lol
Nonetheless, the smaller molecules of the example you provided still rely on 1 + 1 =2.
Peace Someone,
Whether you use binary, or base 10, you will still find that 10 = 2.
Peace Tay,
Surely math is not alone as something that doesn't change. There are many things that do not change.
Yes there are many things that do not change. For the time being let me say that maths is a ruling power that will always exist.
I disagree. Mathematics does not govern anything, it only measures and calculates. Math is a language of logic, a means for the mind to understand. The universe does not rely on math, but math is one way, of many, to describe the universe.
A but you see the universe does rely on maths.
Change a law, and the universe could very easily have evolved in a different way.
The way I see it, there was the big bang, which was "controlled" in a way (by God) so that we would come to this stage, and head to whatever stage is set.
This controlling of the big bang relys on the premise of 1 + 1 =2. On the very nature of mathematics, because the phsyical and chemical laws have a mathematical nature and basis.
The way the gasses escaped, the composition of gases and whatnot to form planets, etc, etc, these were all controlled by mathematics.
It was explained this way because these are concepts the human mind can grasp. Just as heaven is described as a garden with rivers of honey...these are concepts we can relate to. Do you really think we'll be dancing around in gardens with rivers of honey in heaven?
Maybe so, but could you please explain the following signs-
<
=<
=>Weight.......
OK, so why limit the desciption of the essence of Allah as math. Again, math is just one way of many.
True.
It seems you know alot about what Allah was or was not thinking. I mean no offense, but I advise you to rethink your wording.
See the pont I'm getting at, I believe that Allah is perfect, all-knowing, etc, etc.
For Allah to be this perfection, Allah cannot create these things. Why?
Because the term creation, revolves around the concept of thinking of these things and then creating them, that is a progression.
Progression is in direct opposition to perfection. Progression (in the terms I'm talking about) means going from an imperfect state to a perfect state.
So what I'm trying to convey is that the moment God existed he knew, he knew all. Maths is just one of these parts that he knew. There was no progression, there was only just is.
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Peace Esimsek,
Yes there are many things that do not change. For the time being let me say that maths is a ruling power that will always exist.
OK. But I will disagree with you. Math will "exist" only as long as the universe exists. The universe had a beginning, and it will have an end. God has neither a beginning nor an end.
A but you see the universe does rely on maths.
Change a law, and the universe could very easily have evolved in a different way.The universe relies on the laws Allah created. Part of this Divine legal system inlcudes laws that can be understood via mathematics. But mathematics is the human expression of the part of reality that can be comprehended in tangible terms.
An easier way to assess this would be to ask
Was mathemetics invented or discovered?The way I see it, there was the big bang, which was "controlled" in a way (by God) so that we would come to this stage, and head to whatever stage is set.
I agree. With the Big-Bang came time, and space, laid out in a linear, measurable fashion. God said "Be", and it was. He instilled us with logical minds to be able to understand the universe. Part of this understanding we call mathematics.
For Allah to be this perfection, Allah cannot create these things. Why?
Because the term creation, revolves around the concept of thinking of these things and then creating them, that is a progressionThis is a false premise. If God is perfect, then the perfect system comes into existence the moment it is decided upon. Progression is not necessary for the Almighty, it is only necessary for the human mind, which is imperfect, and which is within this linear system. All things within the linear system are subject to progression and decay. But God is not confined to it. This is where I feel you are errant. You are applying very human limitations to the One that created these limitations.
could you please explain the following signs-
<
=<
=>Weight.......
Yes. Human symbols to express certain aspects of agreed reality.
So what I'm trying to convey is that the moment God existed he knew, he knew all. Maths is just one of these parts that he knew. There was no progression, there was only just is.
There was no beginning for God. But there was a beginning for our Universe. So you can't apply what we know about this one creation of God and use it to define God. The human mind is limited, as is mathematics. But God is limitless.
Peace,
Tay -
Hello All,
I just like to add that as far as I know our mathematical rules break down at the point of Big Bang singularity. Therefore mathematics did not exist before the Big Bang. It came into being with the Big Bang.
I also like to add that mathematics is a Tool that we use to describe this Universe. But God is beyond mathematical reasoning. Mystics have already obtained this insight intuitively and imaginatively.
Regards,
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Also Esimsek understanding of God goes back to the Platonic concept of Divinity, the God that does not change and who is incapable of change, because Greeks viewed change as something inferior. So God suddenly deciding to create the Universe would have implied change therefore this Perfect God is unable to carry out this action. So everything must be "just as it is". It is hard to relate to this kind of "Alien" Divinity as human beings. God of the Scripture is a active deity. He intravenes in the the affairs of humanity, something that Platonic God is incapable of doing. That is why the idea of Platonic God may not hold true...
Regards,
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Peace All,
OK. But I will disagree with you. Math will "exist" only as long as the universe exists. The universe had a beginning, and it will have an end. God has neither a beginning nor an end.
See I can't agree with this.
Mathematics has no beginning or end. 1+1 will always equal 2. Whether in this realm or another 1 with another 1 makes two parts.
The universe relies on the laws Allah created. Part of this Divine legal system inlcudes laws that can be understood via mathematics. But mathematics is the human expression of the part of reality that can be comprehended in tangible terms.
An easier way to assess this would be to ask
Was mathemetics invented or discovered?I understand where you are coming from, however I believe that Allah is not a being, Allah just is. As I've said before, Allah is a truth that just is, the same way mathematics is a truth that just is.
This is a false premise. If God is perfect, then the perfect system comes into existence the moment it is decided upon. Progression is not necessary for the Almighty, it is only necessary for the human mind, which is imperfect, and which is within this linear system. All things within the linear system are subject to progression and decay. But God is not confined to it. This is where I feel you are errant. You are applying very human limitations to the One that created these limitations.
Probably the problem is (when arguing such a topic) is that space and time are by products of the Big bang, and therefore do not exist outside of this universe.
I agree that God has no end or beginning, but you see I see mathematics as this aswell. It always was.
There was no beginning for God. But there was a beginning for our Universe. So you can't apply what we know about this one creation of God and use it to define God. The human mind is limited, as is mathematics. But God is limitless.
Hmmmmm. I'll have to think long and hard about your last sentence.
Also Esimsek understanding of God goes back to the Platonic concept of Divinity, the God that does not change and who is incapable of change, because Greeks viewed change as something inferior. So God suddenly deciding to create the Universe would have implied change therefore this Perfect God is unable to carry out this action. So everything must be "just as it is". It is hard to relate to this kind of "Alien" Divinity as human beings. God of the Scripture is a active deity. He intravenes in the the affairs of humanity, something that Platonic God is incapable of doing. That is why the idea of Platonic God may not hold true...
God cannot suddenly decide to change the universe as space and time are by products of the big bang. Hence there can be no such thing as progression.
Does God really intervene???? I'm not sure and I don't really believe so.
This life is a test, God knows what will happen but no blame can be placed unless it happens. As I said the Big Bang was done in a "controlled" manner so that certain things would pass throughout time which can easily be mis-read as God intervening in the world.
As far as our prophets being contacted by higher beings. I believe that this is possible with all humans. A certain ability to meditate at a special level should be able to bring your spiritual self into contact with that higher being. Tru I haven't reached it yet, but there are evidences that the prophets did meditate to reach that level.
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Does God really intervene???? I'm not sure and I don't really believe so.
Platonic God is unable to intervene. Intervention implies change. Platonic God is more in line with the concept of Brahman, who is not even aware of our own human existence. It is neither "Good" or "Evil". Sin does not offend it, nor does "it" love us. But the God of the Scripture is different. He speaks to us. He gives us signs and miracles so that we may believe in him and accept his love and concern.
Platonic God is totally different from the God of the Scripture. Is God of Scripture a fabrications of human yearnings?
Since Platonic God does not change therefore he is unable to create the Universe because that would mean change. So Universe must be just as it is - (this is more akin to Buddhist understanding)? So how do you account for the Universe having a begining.
Regards,
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Peace Esimsek,
See I can't agree with this. Mathematics has no beginning or end. 1+1 will always equal 2. Whether in this realm or another 1 with another 1 makes two parts.
I think what we're dealing with is not the constitution of mathematics, but the constitution of perception. You told me a few posts back to think outside the box. I suggest the same.
You have to understand that without time and space, mathematics has nothing to calculate. Math is locked into this reality. But time and space are temporary. What will math measure when there is no time and space?
Think about that for a moment. What can you say exists irrespective of time and space?
I can think of a few things
Love
Imagination
Compassion
Ambition
BeautyNow tell me, can math measure any of the above?
Probably the problem is (when arguing such a topic) is that space and time are by products of the Big bang, and therefore do not exist outside of this universe.
Exactly! Now just make the connection between math and time and space and you'll see what I am saying. Math has no other purpose. It is a tool for us to understand time and space. But there are other aspects of reality, and other tools to decipher them.
Peace,
Tay