Further observation on submission.org views on Satans nature
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Peace all,
On the submission.org website there is an article on Satan's status in terms of being a "fallen angel" otherwise known as a "jinn" in the understanding of RK. The submission.org view is that Satan BECAME a jinn when he disobeyed the command of God.
http//www.submission.org/satan/app21letter.html
This is based on Rashad Khalifa's view of Satan being a fallen angel
http//www.submission.org/suras/app21.html
However there is a slight misconception with this position. Note the following verses which explain that jinns are created from fire
1527 As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
5515 And created the jinns from blazing fire.and then we have Iblis (Satan) stating
3876 He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay."
Thus Iblis was CREATED from fire in the first place; and we saw above that jinns are created from fire also - so Iblis is qualified to be called a jinn.
The only way it seems to me to maintain the view of Satan being a "fallen angel" is to believe that angels were also created from blazing/smokeless fire - but the nature of angels and what they are created from is not otherwise mentioned explicitly in the Koran.
Thus if we accept this deduction then angels and jinn are both created of fire; Iblis was created from fire, and was an angel who 'became' a jinn through his disobedience and unappreciative, bigoted action when called upon to prostrate/acknowledge God's wisdom. 234, 711, 1529, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3871 show that the instruction was to the angels.
Regards.
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Peace all,
On the submission.org website there is an article on Satan's status in terms of being a "fallen angel" otherwise known as a "jinn" in the understanding of RK. The submission.org view is that Satan BECAME a jinn when he disobeyed the command of God.
http//www.submission.org/satan/app21letter.html
This is based on Rashad Khalifa's view of Satan being a fallen angel
http//www.submission.org/suras/app21.html
However there is a slight misconception with this position. Note the following verses which explain that jinns are created from fire
1527 As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from blazing fire.
5515 And created the jinns from blazing fire.and then we have Iblis (Satan) stating
3876 He said, "I am better than he; You created me from fire, and created him from clay."
Thus Iblis was CREATED from fire in the first place; and we saw above that jinns are created from fire also - so Iblis is qualified to be called a jinn.
The only way it seems to me to maintain the view of Satan being a "fallen angel" is to believe that angels were also created from blazing/smokeless fire - but the nature of angels and what they are created from is not otherwise mentioned explicitly in the Koran.
Thus if we accept this deduction then angels and jinn are both created of fire; Iblis was created from fire, and was an angel who 'became' a jinn through his disobedience and unappreciative, bigoted action when called upon to prostrate/acknowledge God's wisdom. 234, 711, 1529, 1761, 1850, 20116, 3871 show that the instruction was to the angels.
Regards.
Khi- Yes i was confused with tht too but then i came 2 a conclusion in the following article i wrote n also posted at forum.19.org
I think now I have now found a good and resonable explanation for Jinn being fallen angels. Look at these verses
As for the jinns, we created them, before that, from (Naar asSAMMOOM).
Comment 'Nar asSAMOOM' where 'samoom' means a 'hot poisonous wind'. Definitely the angels could not be made from such a fire. It was I think a punishment for the fallen angels to live in such a body of fire whilst they first used to be pure fire.
And created the jinns from fire WITHOUT SMOKE(i.e. Maarijim min Naar) .
The Arabic word 'Maarij' means 'fire without smoke'. But if the verse above is translated word to word then it would become
And created the jinns from FIRE WITHOUT SMOKE(i.e. Maarijim min Naar), from fire.
Here GOD is laying a double stress on fire firstly saying they are from smokeless fire and then adds again 'from fire'. What do you think this could imply. If we sum up both we can see that the fire of a Jinn's body is made from a hot poisonous wind and smokeless kind of fire. From the first description we can clearly conclude that this type of fire is a type of fire which is impure as compared to the fire of the angels which could be 'pure fire' as we can see from the following verse
He said, "What prevented you from prostrating when I ordered you?" He said, "I am better than he; You created me from FIRE(and only fire, no blaze i.e. Naar) and created him from mud."
I now understand the angels to be created from pure 'fire' while the Jinns body from a hot posionous wind, smokeless type of fire which is impure. This also fits why they are fallen angels. GOD Bless! -
Angels have no free will, so I dont think the concept of a 'fallen angel' exists in Islam. Jinn however are in the same boat as humans, they can do what they want.
We are given examples of negative aspects of jin, but never an example of an angel acting negatively, it simply fits the pattern in the Quran.
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Angels have no free will, so I dont think the concept of a 'fallen angel' exists in Islam. Jinn however are in the same boat as humans, they can do what they want.
We are given examples of negative aspects of jin, but never an example of an angel acting negatively, it simply fits the pattern in the Quran.
Khi- Where do u find this statement in the Quran tht angels in genaral have no free will? If they had no free will how cld they qs GOD in 230
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
GOD Bless! -
Peace to all,
The only way it seems to me to maintain the view of Satan being a "fallen angel" is to believe that angels were also created from blazing/smokeless fire - but the nature of angels and what they are created from is not otherwise mentioned explicitly in the Koran.
True, the creation of angels is not explicit. However, one does get the impression that jinn and angels are not the same thing. Other than the various verses talking separately about jinn, here's one that I thought was interesting;
And on the Day when He gathers them all, He will say to the Angels ?Was it you that these people used to worship?? They will Say ?Be You glorified. You are our Lord, not them. No, most of them were worshiping the Jinn; most were believers to them.?That being said, I guess the argument of jinn being originally angels could still stand, even though there is no explicit verse showing it to be thus.
I'd like you to take a look at these verses, which describe the same scenario as the various verses you quoted. One thing I'd like to mention here, is there is some repitition, in quran, with different stories, example - moses, or the story of the creation of Adam. Most of the verses, in different chapters, are identical for the most part. There are some subtle 'differences', which for me, tend to explain the big picture. Anyway, please take note of the part I highlighted and tell me what you think. )
And We have created man from a clay hardened and shaped.
And the Jinn, We created him before that from the flames of fire.
And your Lord said to the Angels ?I am creating a human from a hardened clay.?
?So when I perfect him, and blow of My spirit in him, you shall submit to him.?
Thus, all of the Angels submitted.
Except for Satan, he refused to be with those who submitted.Where do u find this statement in the Quran tht angels in genaral have no free will?
Unless if one believes that satan was an angel, there is no instance throughout quran that angels have disobeyed God in any shape or form. Here's a verse that might help show the opposite;
O you who believe, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and rocks. Guarding it are stern and powerful Angels who do not disobey God in what He commanded them; and they carry out what they are commanded to.Peace. )
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Peace to all,
Where do u find this statement in the Quran tht angels in genaral have no free will?
Unless if one believes that satan was an angel, there is no instance throughout quran that angels have disobeyed God in any shape or form. Here's a verse that might help show the opposite;
O you who believe, protect yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is people and rocks. Guarding it are stern and powerful Angels who do not disobey God in what He commanded them; and they carry out what they are commanded to.Peace. )
Khi- This very verse i remember was quoted by Danish two years ago at forum.19.org where we had a huge debate. But we can clearly see tht this is NOT talking abt angels in general but is in context of specifc angels appointed 2 guard hell. GOD Bless!
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Khi- Where do u find this statement in the Quran tht angels in genaral have no free will? If they had no free will how cld they qs GOD in 230
Recall that your Lord said to the angels, "I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know."
GOD Bless!It makes no sense for angels to have free will, nothing would get done otherwise. They are amongst the highest positions in creation, constantly doing God's bidding, for them to have free will would be ineffecient, and even make our existence pointless, free will is what makes us special and highlights the purpose of our existence, as a test. Free will is a test.
The verse you quoted isnt exactly betraying Islam is it? The angels ask a very valid question, they're voicing their concern out of love for God, they knew humans would be generally weak and quick to look away from the Truth. There is not one instance of an angel doing something not sanctioned by God, it is not possible for them to do so.
If you think of life like a game, or simulation like The Sims, Civilisation, etc, then angels would be the pre-programmed A.I that does whatever the 'player' wants, wheras the computer characters can act randomly and oppose the 'player'. Make any sense? God forgive me for using a lame analogy, but it does bring my point across, and life is referred to a game a few times in the Quran too.
So in my mind, the term 'fallen angel' has no place in Islam. Once God told them all to submit, you'd think if they had free will, more than one would refuse, right? Iblis was a jinn.
^Notice the verse emphasis on the word 'jinn' before continuing confidently by stating 'so he disobeyed' God. Being a non-angel automatically places Iblis in the category of living beings that can disobey God. What he was doing there at the time is beyond me, or anyone really. Unless you believe he was an angel of course.
Anyway, I'm sure the debate will continue no matter what people believe, so peace anyway.
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It makes no sense for angels to have free will, nothing would get done otherwise. They are amongst the highest positions in creation, constantly doing God's bidding, for them to have free will would be ineffecient, and even make our existence pointless, free will is what makes us special and highlights the purpose of our existence, as a test. Free will is a test.
Khi- It makes sense coz GOD can set up new angels 2 do the same work if some falter. Those who falter then become jinn. Another explanation is tht angels had a free will be4 creation of mankind only in later the classification was done when the human being was created n some angels fell. The latter is the explanation of RK. I personally agree with the first view which does not discrdit RKS view completely coz the incident with Adam may only be one of the infinite possible events which GOD wanted 2 tell us abt.
The verse you quoted isnt exactly betraying Islam is it? The angels ask a very valid question, they're voicing their concern out of love for God, they knew humans would be generally weak and quick to look away from the Truth. There is not one instance of an angel doing something not sanctioned by God, it is not possible for them to do so.
Khi- Y r they voicing their concern when GOD the All Knowing Himself has decided 2 create them. If angels were robots with no free will they wldnt express their concern. This clearly indicates free will. N yes there is an incident where an angel Iblees disobeyed GOD. Notice tht the command was exclusively 2 the angels. If Jinn was a separate being then GOD in His Infinite Justice wld not punish such a creature 4 not obeying an order addressed 2 the angels only.
If you think of life like a game, or simulation like The Sims, Civilisation, etc, then angels would be the pre-programmed A.I that does whatever the 'player' wants, wheras the computer characters can act randomly and oppose the 'player'. Make any sense? God forgive me for using a lame analogy, but it does bring my point across, and life is referred to a game a few times in the Quran too.
Khi- I diagree 4 reasons mentioned above.
So in my mind, the term 'fallen angel' has no place in Islam. Once God told them all to submit, you'd think if they had free will, more than one would refuse, right? Iblis was a jinn.
^Notice the verse emphasis on the word 'jinn' before continuing confidently by stating 'so he disobeyed' God. Being a non-angel automatically places Iblis in the category of living beings that can disobey God. What he was doing there at the time is beyond me, or anyone really. Unless you believe he was an angel of course.
Anyway, I'm sure the debate will continue no matter what people believe, so peace anyway.
Khi- The word 'kaana' in rabic can means 'was' as well as 'became'. In view of the command this word must be trans 'became' here n NOT 'was'. GOD Bless!
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Peace all,
I would like to discuss a fictional situation
Let suppose that I'm in command, I'm the boss. I give to each of my servants a task to do, and they have no choice but to do it.
For one of my servants, I'll ask him to "always do the opposite of what I ask him to do".
Now I would ask this very servant to point to a white square on a board with a mosaic of colors.
In this case, even if he know which one is the white square (he sure knows, because he should not point to it), he would point to any other square but the white one.
The result of my request is a non-white square. So did the servant obey my command or not?
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Peace all,
I would like to discuss a fictional situation
Let suppose that I'm in command, I'm the boss. I give to each of my servants a task to do, and they have no choice but to do it.
For one of my servants, I'll ask him to "always do the opposite of what I ask him to do".
Now I would ask this very servant to point to a white square on a board with a mosaic of colors.
In this case, even if he know which one is the white square (he sure knows, because he should not point to it), he would point to any other square but the white one.
The result of my request is a non-white square. So did the servant obey my command or not?
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Khi- A logical paradox has been created making the whole statements corrupted. GOD Bless!