Dr. Kent Hovind takes up on THREE evolutionists
-
If you believe that it does, then you will also have to arrive at the conclusion that the Koran also proclaims a young earth ? as it also copies-over the Biblical ?6 day? creation theme?
Bzzzt.
There is an explicit mention of the relativity of a day in the Koran whereas your conjecture of the same applying in the bible is a case of wishful thinking.
It also indicates that the Koran has in fact corrected and brought clearer understanding to your texts and not vice versa.
Finally, if it were as you say there would not be the literal 6 day adherence that people defend to this day. I congratulate you for using the Koran's superior concepts to understand your bible. I saw that you were trying hard to do that with a three day matter but it didn't quite work out for you. But I understand... you're obsessed with threeness.
Regards.
-
Greetings truth,
Thanks for your comments?
As the chapter in question is in the Old Testament are you asserting as your belief that the OT is what you believe in (amongst other things) as the truth.
Correct?
Do you live your life by the laws of the Old Testament then?
Or are those laws abrogated?
Please answer and then we can debate more.
People in OT times lived their lives the same way as in the NT times?and that is in obedience to the Creator God of the Universe?
I commend you on your God alone position.
But with your faith and then rejection of the OT you are being hypocritical. Leviticus 117-8 - what does it say?
Ever had bacon or prawns?
And in the OT you'll also find that it's a sin for you to wear a jacket made from a linen/wool mix. You've probably broken that too. Such is the (man made) wisdom of the OT.
Regards.
-
Greetings truth,
Thanks for your replies?
There is an explicit mention of the relativity of a day in the Koran whereas your conjecture of the same applying in the bible is a case of wishful thinking.
If you believe this, then you will have no trouble bringing forth your evidence for your position?.right?? wink
It also indicates that the Koran has in fact corrected and brought clearer understanding to your texts and not vice versa.
A simple A/B comparison is all that is required to show that the authors of the Koran left little to no details in each of the ?6 creation days? that they borrowed from the Holy Bible.
The Holy Bible is required to fill in the numerous ?day? details that are absent from the Koran.
Finally, if it were as you say there would not be the literal 6 day adherence that people defend to this day.
Please elaborate?
I congratulate you for using the Koran's superior concepts to understand your bible.
Actually, it is the other way around.
The original (Holy Bible) is required to correct the copy (Koran)?in all manner of things...
You can understand this...
I saw that you were trying hard to do that with a three day matter but it didn't quite work out for you. But I understand... you're obsessed with threeness.
It is a pleasure to help you better understand your scriptures?
I commend you on your God alone position.
Thanks?
But with your faith and then rejection of the OT you are being hypocritical. Leviticus 117-8 - what does it say?
Ever had bacon or prawns?
Perhaps you did not understand my previous comment.
Let me elaborate?
Mar 714 And calling all the crowd near, He said to them, All hear Me and understand.
Mar 715 There is nothing from outside the man, having entered into him, which is able to defile him. But the things going out from him, those are the things defiling the man.
Mar 716 If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.
Mar 717 And when He entered into a house from the crowd, His disciples questioned Him about the parable.
Mar 718 And He said to them, Are you also so undiscerning? Do you not perceive that all that enters from the outside into the man is not able to defile him?
Mar 719 This is because it does not enter into his heart, but into the belly, and goes out into the waste-bowl, purging all the foods.
Mar 720 And He said, That passing out of the man, it is the thing that defiles the man.
Mar 721 For from within, out of the heart of men, pass out the evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 722 thefts, greedy desires, iniquities, deceit, lustful desires, a wicked eye, blasphemy, pride, recklessness.
Mar 723 All these evil things pass out from within and defile the man.Thanks?.
-
Greetings, Andya Primanda,
It is a bit ironic though to see Khizar being congratulated by the Christian apple-pie... I mean, evolution poses little problem for Islam (even for the traditonalists) but it does seriously challenge Xtianity.
As I previously mentioned, evolution would pose a serious challenge to believers of the Koran?
Thanks?
Apple,
Been waiting for my chance to do a direct exchange with you.
As for my stance. The root concept of Christianity is Adam's original sin and the Fall, which has to be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ. This hangs on the details of Genesis. Science has shown that Genesis (especially the order of creation) is wrong. Therefore, the first link in your argument breaks.
Islam, on the other hand, do not have the concept of original sin and saviour. Adam and Adam's spouse has repented and has been forgiven by God. Every person is born in innocence, and everyone gets judged after they die, and during life have the same opportunity to get themselves to heaven or hell based on their actions. Intercession, by Jesus in your case, will not be accepted. This system is not influenced by the details of human creation. Whether we evolved or created by magic explosions, we still have to do good works to attain afterlife bliss.
As for your point about evolution posing a serious challenge to the Qur'an, please elaborate. I'd like to see how you twist word definitions again with that dictionary of yours.
-
Greetings Andya Primanda,
Thanks for sharing your comments?
Been waiting for my chance to do a direct exchange with you.
As for my stance. The root concept of Christianity is Adam's original sin and the Fall, which has to be redeemed by the sacrifice of Christ. This hangs on the details of Genesis. Science has shown that Genesis (especially the order of creation) is wrong. Therefore, the first link in your argument breaks.
Well?if you believe your position has any merit to it whatsoever, then I suggest that you start a dedicated thread inclusive to the ?six days? of Creation as sequenced by Genesis.
From there, we can perform a detailed exegesis of the Hebrew and see just exactly who has the better understanding of the text.
Furthermore, I would like to directly compare the Koranic six day creation sequence along side that of the Biblical one; where it can be amply demonstrated for all to see exactly how the Biblical Creation Sequence is correct, and that it totally crushes the copied Koranic one?
Your call? wink
Islam, on the other hand, do not have the concept of original sin and saviour. Adam and Adam's spouse has repented and has been forgiven by God. Every person is born in innocence, and everyone gets judged after they die, and during life have the same opportunity to get themselves to heaven or hell based on their actions. Intercession, by Jesus in your case, will not be accepted. This system is not influenced by the details of human creation. Whether we evolved or created by magic explosions, we still have to do good works to attain afterlife bliss.
Islam does not, correct?but the ?holy? book of Islam does?
Most Muslims are too steeped in the man-made traditions of their faith to spend the necessary time exegeting their book of faith?
As for your point about evolution posing a serious challenge to the Qur'an, please elaborate. I'd like to see how you twist word definitions again with that dictionary of yours.
No problem.
Please bring forth any ?mankind creation ayah? from the Koran (of your choosing) and we will exegete it together?.
Thanks?
-
peace Apple Pie
Furthermore, I would like to directly compare the Koranic six day creation sequence along side that of the Biblical one; where it can be amply demonstrated for all to see exactly how the Biblical Creation Sequence is correct, and that it totally crushes the copied Koranic one?
I would like to see that.
-
Peace all,
Furthermore, I would like to directly compare the Koranic six day creation sequence along side that of the Biblical one; where it can be amply demonstrated for all to see exactly how the Biblical Creation Sequence is correct, and that it totally crushes the copied Koranic one?
There is no six-day creation in the great reading/quran. The word "ywm" doesn't mean "a 24 hours day" and this is a well known fact to anyone familiar with the book. It simply means a time period. For example, we hear about a "yawm" being 50,000 years (see 704) or a thousand years. The word "ywm" is also used in many instances in the great reading/quran to mark a point of time and not a "day". For example, we can see this in verses such as 248, 2123, etc. It is also used to mean "now" in verses such as 2249, 53, etc. Thus, the word "ywm" can signify any time period shorter or longer than 24 hours.
Those who understand know that The God didn't create the heavens and the earth from Sunday to Friday (which is the popular but ridiculous Judeo-Christian myth).
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
-
Greetings ayman,
Thanks for adding your comments?
Apple Pie wrote
Furthermore, I would like to directly compare the Koranic six day creation sequence along side that of the Biblical one; where it can be amply demonstrated for all to see exactly how the Biblical Creation Sequence is correct, and that it totally crushes the copied Koranic one?There is no six-day creation in the great reading/quran. The word "ywm" doesn't mean "a 24 hours day" and this is a well known fact to anyone familiar with the book. It simply means a time period. For example, we hear about a "yawm" being 50,000 years (see 704) or a thousand years. The word "ywm" is also used in many instances in the great reading/quran to mark a point of time and not a "day". For example, we can see this in verses such as 248, 2123, etc. It is also used to mean "now" in verses such as 2249, 53, etc. Thus, the word "ywm" can signify any time period shorter or longer than 24 hours.
Thanks for re-affirming what I already stated regarding the word ?yawm?.
It is a flexible term both in Hebrew and in Arabic.
Those who understand know that The God didn't create the heavens and the earth from Sunday to Friday (which is the popular but ridiculous Judeo-Christian myth).
Popular indeed?as the authors who penned the Koranic text carried-over the same ?six-day? Biblical concept?
Unfortunately, the authors of the Koran skimped on the details that entail each of the "six days"...
Take care?
-
Greetings AP, all,
Thanks for re-affirming what I already stated regarding the word ?yawm?.
It is a flexible term both in Hebrew and in Arabic.
Those who understand know that The God didn't create the heavens and the earth from Sunday to Friday (which is the popular but ridiculous Judeo-Christian myth).
Popular indeed?as the authors who penned the Koranic text carried-over the same ?six-day? Biblical concept?
Unfortunately, the authors of the Koran skimped on the details that entail each of the "six days"...
Instead of speculation, let the Bible speak for itself. Unfortunately, the Bible doesn't allow room for any logical understanding. I quote from the American Standard Version (my comments in red)
- And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
The authors of the Bible were not aware that light is more than just an earth "day" and darkness is more than just an earth "night". Moreover, the reference to evening and morning making one day makes it clear that the Bible is talking about a 24 hour day and not a "time period" like the great reading.
- And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
- And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament and it was so.
- And God called the firmament Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, a second day.
A bunch of nonsense plus, again the reference to evening and morning making one day makes it clear that the Bible is talking about a 24 hour day.
- And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear and it was so.
- And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas and God saw that it was good.
- And God said, Let the earth put forth grass, herbs yielding seed, fruit-trees bearing fruit after their kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth and it was so.
- And the earth brought forth grass, herbs yielding seed after their kind, and trees bearing fruit, wherein is the seed thereof, after their kind and God saw that it was good.
- And there was evening and there was morning, a third day.
More nonsense and again the reference to evening and morning making one day makes it clear that the Bible is talking about a 24 hour day. The clueless authors of the Bible insist on this clear falsehood.
- And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years
- and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth and it was so.
- And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night the stars also.
- And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth,
- and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness and God saw that it was good.
- And there was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.
The simple minded authors of the Bible insist on making it impossible for you to claim that the Bible is not talking about a 24 hour day. I am not even going to address the other nonsense above.
- And God said, Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
- And God created the great sea-monsters, and every living creature that moveth, wherewith the waters swarmed, after their kind, and every winged bird after its kind and God saw that it was good.
- And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.
- And there was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.
No comment.
- And God said, Let the earth bring forth living creatures after their kind, cattle, and creeping things, and beasts of the earth after their kind and it was so.
- And God made the beasts of the earth after their kind, and the cattle after their kind, and everything that creepeth upon the ground after its kind and God saw that it was good.
- And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
- And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
- And God blessed them and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
- And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food
- and to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the heavens, and to everything that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, every green herb for food and it was so.
- And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.
I think you get the picture.
- And the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
- And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
The above Biblical nonsense makes it clear that the Bible is talking about a 24 hour day and not a "time period" like the great reading. Case in point, this understanding resulted in the sabbath for the Jews and the church adopting the seven day week (6 days + 1 rest) as we have it today.
I hope this helps.
Peace on who followed the guidance,
Ayman
-
Greetings ayman,
I will take the liberty of starting a new thread which will directly address the Creation sequence accounts of both the Koran and the Holy Bible, as they relate not only to each other, but to modern scientific discoveries, as well?
Please feel free to contribute your same commentary to the new thread?and/or I can copy-over your comments in the appropriate sections.
I encourage you (and other like-minded individuals) to contribute a Koranic ?defense? for each ?day? that we cover?
Thanks?
-
Where is your reference...?
roll -
Apple,
Greetings Andya Primanda,
Well?if you believe your position has any merit to it whatsoever, then I suggest that you start a dedicated thread inclusive to the ?six days? of Creation as sequenced by Genesis.Order of creation from Genesis 1
Day 1. Heaven (sky? universe?) and earth; light (day) and darkness (night)
Day 2. Firmament (clouds?)
Day 3. Dry land & sea; land plants
Day 4. Sun, moon, stars
Day 5. Birds, whales, sea creatures
Day 6. Beasts of the earth & creeping things (land creatures? mammals? reptiles?); man
The problem with this is that it contradicts scientific discoveries about the history of the earth. Here's how the order should be
Universe
Stars
Sun
Earth
Moon
Dry land & sea
Sea creatures
Plants
Reptiles
Mammals
Birds
ManYour Genesis got the order mixed-up.
From there, we can perform a detailed exegesis of the Hebrew and see just exactly who has the better understanding of the text.
Furthermore, I would like to directly compare the Koranic six day creation sequence along side that of the Biblical one; where it can be amply demonstrated for all to see exactly how the Biblical Creation Sequence is correct, and that it totally crushes the copied Koranic one?
Your call? wink
Simple. You can't crush the Qur'anic six-day creation sequence because it's nonexistent. Besides, the biblical sequence is already broken under the weight of the evidence.
Islam, on the other hand, do not have the concept of original sin and saviour. Adam and Adam's spouse has repented and has been forgiven by God. Every person is born in innocence, and everyone gets judged after they die, and during life have the same opportunity to get themselves to heaven or hell based on their actions. Intercession, by Jesus in your case, will not be accepted. This system is not influenced by the details of human creation. Whether we evolved or created by magic explosions, we still have to do good works to attain afterlife bliss.
Islam does not, correct?but the ?holy? book of Islam does?
Most Muslims are too steeped in the man-made traditions of their faith to spend the necessary time exegeting their book of faith?
What? The Qur'an was glaringly obvious in saying that we don't need a saviour.
Please bring forth any ?mankind creation ayah? from the Koran (of your choosing) and we will exegete it together?.
Um, it was you who make the assertion in the first place. The burden of proof is yours, not mine.
-
Greetings Andya Primanda,
As you can see, the Creation sequence comparison is being held in the Christian section of this forum?
Simple. You can't crush the Qur'anic six-day creation sequence because it's nonexistent.
If it?s non-existent, then why do the authors of the Koran proclaim a six-day creation, seven times over?.?
Another un-backed Koranic assertion?.?
Besides, the biblical sequence is already broken under the weight of the evidence.
Wrong.
The Biblical sequence fully coincides with the record of nature?
What? The Qur'an was glaringly obvious in saying that we don't need a saviour.
Wrong.
You need to read Sura 86?
Quote
Please bring forth any ?mankind creation ayah? from the Koran (of your choosing) and we will exegete it together?.Um, it was you who make the assertion in the first place. The burden of proof is yours, not mine.
Actually, you were the one who made the first assertion?.remember?.?
Quote
It is a bit ironic though to see Khizar being congratulated by the Christian apple-pie... I mean, evolution poses little problem for Islam (even for the traditonalists) but it does seriously challenge Xtianity.Take care?
-
Apple,
As you can see, the Creation sequence comparison is being held in the Christian section of this forum?
Okay I'll take that debate there.
If it?s non-existent, then why do the authors of the Koran proclaim a six-day creation, seven times over?.?
Another un-backed Koranic assertion?.?
The Author of the Qur'an only said six 'days' (sittatin ayyamin). The sequence as in Genesis 1 is nonexistent. SO what are you asking for? Of course I know the Qur'an mentioned six 'days' in several passages. I also know that these proclamations do not specify the sequence, therefore I stop at that.
Wrong.
The Biblical sequence fully coincides with the record of nature?
As in light before stars, earth before sun, birds before reptiles? What record of nature are you talking about?
The Qur'an was glaringly obvious in saying that we don't need a saviour.
You need to read Sura 86?
http//yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D86
<reading...>
Okay, I did it.
No need for a saviour there.
And there won't be one either.8610 Fama lahu min quwwatin wa la nashirin
Literal So (there is) no strength/power, and nor victorior/savior for him.Actually, you were the one who made the first assertion?.remember?.?
Quote
It is a bit ironic though to see Khizar being congratulated by the Christian apple-pie... I mean, evolution poses little problem for Islam (even for the traditonalists) but it does seriously challenge Xtianity.Evolution poses little trouble for Islam. Why? Because, as I said,
Islam, on the other hand, do not have the concept of original sin and saviour. Adam and Adam's spouse has repented and has been forgiven by God. Every person is born in innocence, and everyone gets judged after they die, and during life have the same opportunity to get themselves to heaven or hell based on their actions. Intercession, by Jesus in your case, will not be accepted. This system is not influenced by the details of human creation. Whether we evolved or created by magic explosions, we still have to do good works to attain afterlife bliss.
And the word 'khalaq' (create) in the Qur'an refers to an observable process, as stated in my favourite verse, 2920
http//yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=29%3A20
2920 Qul siiruu fi al-ardi fa-unzhuruu kayfa bada-a al-khalqa. Tsumma Allahu yunsyi-u an-nasy-ata al-aakhirata inna Allaha 'ala kulli shay-in qadiirun
Literal Say "Walk/move/ride in the earth/Planet Earth, so see/wonder about how He began/initiated the creation, then God creates/originates the creation/origination the end/last, that (E) God (is) on every thing capable/able.
-
Greetings Andya Primanda,
Thanks for your reply.
The creation sequence comparison is being maintained in the Christian forum?and your questions are answered there?
Quote
The Qur'an was glaringly obvious in saying that we don't need a saviour.
Quote
You need to read Sura 86?http//yaqb.lrhazi.com/index.php?query=c%3D86
<reading...>
Okay, I did it.
No need for a saviour there.
And there won't be one either.8610 Fama lahu min quwwatin wa la nashirin
Literal So (there is) no strength/power, and nor victorior/savior for him.Perhaps you need to study your classic Arabic?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737
Have fun?
-
Perhaps you need to study your classic Arabic?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737
Have fun?
The problem with your exegesis is that it refers to the New Testament. I don't believe that the New Testament is authentic. Therefore, I stick to the original translation, Tariq=Morning Star.
Since we have gone off-topic, would you care returning to the topic of evolution, Christianity and Islam? I'll also look at the Six-Day thread.
-
Greetings Andya Primanda,
Thanks for your comments?
Quote
Perhaps you need to study your classic Arabic?http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737
Have fun?
The problem with your exegesis is that it refers to the New Testament. I don't believe that the New Testament is authentic.
Well?the authors of the Koran thought that it is authentic?
Therefore, I stick to the original translation, Tariq=Morning Star.
And?.?
Since we have gone off-topic, would you care returning to the topic of evolution, Christianity and Islam? I'll also look at the Six-Day thread.
Sure?