Lord of the universes! Rab ilAlamin !

marie

Dear Noor,

Thanks for your clarification and I understand your reasonning but I have some disagreement.

When I said "I prefer the initiator of everything", I mean the Initiator of everything we know and those we don't know; He is also the Lord of the believers and the diebelievers even they disbelieve

Say ?Shall I seek other than God as a Lord when He is the Lord of everything (rabbu kulli shay-in)?? And every soul earns what is for it, and none will bear the burden of another. Then to your Lord is your return and He will inform you of what you disputed in.
Your Lord is God who created the heavens and Earth in six days, then He settled upon the throne. The night runs from the day, which seeks it continually; and the sun and the moon and the stars are all subjected by His command; to Him is the creation and the command. Glory be to God, the Lord of the worlds.
If they turn away, then Say ?God is enough for me, there is no god but He, in Him I put my trust and He is the Lord of the great throne.?

The plural form of the word ( Alam) universe in Arabic is
( Awalem) universes! And not Alamin! Unless the specified object was a different issue than we claim to be as universes!

Maybe I'm wrong, it seems that the form of AAalam (univers) and AAalameen (universes) is similar than salih (righteous, singular form) and saliheen (the righteous ones plural form).

Both AAalameen and AAawalim could be the plural form of AAalam (univers) in the same way for 1) AAalimeen and 2) AAulama which are two plural forms of AAalilm (the knowledgeble).

The God knows best

Sorry for my bad exglish

noor

Dear Marie,

As I see you either have missed my point , or I was not clear in that.

Nevertheless ,The word Salih and Saleheen are not of same example as A'alm in sigular form! I do not know about your Arabic level on grammer or else if you would recall the verbs in arabic lang. and their transformation , you would not cite that example. But, There is Fa'el and Fa'al , so Salih belongs to Fa'el same as Alem , but Alam belongs to other category Fa'al ! so it is different. and their plural form is as well different.

But in a second thought , (raised now) ! so simple and direct ! (Superlative)

Although, at first you argued about The Lord of the known things.... and I agree with you that He is the Lord of everthing ( kulli shai") , hence I was expecting your reply (read my previous post one more time).
But now , I have a better tool to convey my understanding to you and others..

for "example" you argue with your sis , and say I am the most beautiful among my friends !
But your sis would say - I am the (for example" Rab aljamilat" in other words in superlative form , she needed to convey the level of her beauty it means the best of the beautest. including your friends and family and all ladies.

Now on same manner, Man (for example) is the most knwoledgeable creature among other creatures! .. But our Lord would tell us He is the Lord of the wisest (superlative form) in other words He is the most Wisest of them all. (omniscient) Rab ul ........ !

On the same manner the Basmallah - mentioning about the knowledgables, savants .. But Our Lord is the most Knowlegeable of them all.. Rab Alalemeen ( superlative case) ! The best One among those knowers and savants .. He is the Rab of them all ' Rab ela'lemeen! The highest level . on top.
On same trend , When He says He is the greatest of them all. there is the great , greater, greatest and the greatest of them all is your Lord.

Ihope this time , the thing is much clearer.
peace,

hlatif

Salaam Noor, Marie,

I do agree with your assessment, except for one difference.

Alalameen= the known things.

Since GOD knows everything, then he is the Lord of everything.

Salaam

Hussein

noor

Salaam Noor, Marie,

I do agree with your assessment, except for one difference.

Alalameen= the known things.

Since GOD knows everything, then he is the Lord of everything.

Salaam

Hussein

Dear Hussein,

Please read all the discussions as to view the derived piece of information about Rab ila'lemeen!
Rab is used as superlative tool !
Rab Alemeen - is the Rab ( Superlative )the best of the best of the knoweldgeables !

God bless,
Noor

hlatif

Salaam Noor,

I am not certain that I can agree with you about the superlative form for the Rabb. One has to make sure that this was the use in Classical arabic and not something that became used later.

The way I view Rabb that it means Nurturer/sustainer/raiser. Some of the uses of the word are
RABB Albait which means nurturer/sustainer/raiser of the house
Abooy illi Rabbani my father that raised/nurtured/sustained me.

So to me RABB ilAAalameen means nurturer/sustainer/raiser of all the known things.
Since GOD knows everything then He is the nurturer of everything.

This goes well with Alhamdu lillah Rabb il AAalameen will mean

The praise to the GOD, nurturer of evrything.

Salaam and have a good day

Hussein

unknownuser

Greetings All,

Let?s review the classic definition for the subject matter?

= ?rabbu alAAalameena?

?rabbu alAAalameena? definition

The Lord of the jinn, or genii, and of mankind the Lord of all created beings. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, and distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 383 - 385

Occurrences of ?rabbu alAAalameena? in the Koran 34

Locations 1.2, 5.28, 6.45, 6.162, 7.54, 7.61, 7.67, 7.104, 10.10, 10.37, 26.16, 26.23, 26.77, 26.109, 26.127, 26.145, 26.164, 26.180, 26.192, 27.8, 27.44, 28.30, 32.2, 37.182, 39.75, 40.64, 40.65, 41.9, 43.46, 45.36, 56.80, 59.16, 69.43, 81.29

Thus?a review of the classic definition tells us that this phrase is referring to the (plural) Jinn and Mankind.

The Koran refers to Jinn and Humans throughout its pages, and, by looking at all of the Koranic locations where this exact same phrase occurs, we have to ask ourselves who the ?Lord? in these ayahs is referring to in the first place.

It is rather obvious that this phrase is embedded in Biblical Eschatological material ? primarily from the Biblical Book of Revelation?..hence, we can better understand that the Jinn are actually the demonic locusts as described in the Bible?..then, that also leaves little imagination for who the ?Lord? then refers to?.

Thanks?

Wakas

al AAalameena = the creations/beings

unknownuser

Greetings Wakas,

Thanks for your comment?

al AAalameena = the creations/beings

And the creations are specifically the jinn, or genii, and mankind?

Lane is correct?.and we can easily confirm this by looking to the contexts of its usage through out the entire Koran?

Take care?

shuaib

apple pie,

It's great that you have access to Lane's and use it to look deeper into the meaning of the Quran. Of course you can do this because of the preservation of the Quran and the Arabic language.

Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Muslims who are used to such precision to take anything from the Bible as "authentic." The original Aramaic of the Gospels is gone, we some translated Greek manuscripts and in some cases not even that.

It's too bad that there wasn't an Aramaic version of the book of Revelations around, as well as an Aramaic lexicon, so that we could truly see what the meanings were. As it is, the book of revelations is a translation of a translation of which the original is lost.

How can you ask the Muslim, who is so used to the precision and clarity of the Quran and Arabic (with which you also seem acquainted), to refer to the Biblical books?

As far as demonic locusts are concerned, I'd probably work on that theory a bit by at least looking at the other verses concerning jinn.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

It's great that you have access to Lane's and use it to look deeper into the meaning of the Quran. Of course you can do this because of the preservation of the Quran and the Arabic language.

Actually, it is an absolute necessity that a Classic Lexicon (such as Lane?s) be utilized to truly comprehend what the Koran stated at the time that it was penned by its authors.

You may find these quotes from Lane?s Lexicon rather enlightening?

Every language without a written literature tends to decay more than to development by reason of foreign influences; and the history of the Arabic exhibits an instance of decay remarkably rapid, and extraordinary in degree. An immediate consequence of the foreign conquests achieved by the Arabs under Mohammad?s first four successors was an extensive corruption of their language; for the nations that they subdued were naturally obliged to adopt in a great measure the speech of the conquerors, a speech which few persons have ever acquired in such a degree as to be secure from the commission of frequent errors in grammar without learning it from infancy?.

Such being the case, it became a matter of the highest importance to the Arabs to preserve the knowledge of that speech which had thus become obsolescent, and to draw a distinct line between the classical and the post-classical languages. For the former language was that of the Kur-an and of the Traditions of Mohammad, the sources of their religious, moral, civil, criminal, and political code? and they possessed, in that language, preserved by oral tradition, - for the art of writing, in Arabia, had been almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews?.

The classical language they called, by reason of its incomparable excellence, ?el-loghah,? or ?the language? and the line between this and the post-classical was easily drawn, on account of the almost sudden commencement, and rapid progress, of the corruption.

?.I often have found in my knowledge of modern Arabic a solution of a difficulty; but without great caution, such knowledge would frequently have misled me, in consequence of the changes which have taken place in the applications of many words since the classical age.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. vii ? viii; xxii - xxiii

Thus?it is painfully clear why any serious student of the Koran needs to study the classic Arabic in which the Koran was written.

Additionally?.and this is of utmost importance?.observe that the art of writing was almost exclusively confined to Christians and Jews?!

I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!

Unfortunately, it is very difficult for Muslims who are used to such precision to take anything from the Bible as "authentic."

Precision?.?

Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?

The original Aramaic of the Gospels is gone, we some translated Greek manuscripts and in some cases not even that.

Original Aramaic?..?

It's too bad that there wasn't an Aramaic version of the book of Revelations around, as well as an Aramaic lexicon, so that we could truly see what the meanings were. As it is, the book of revelations is a translation of a translation of which the original is lost.

The Book of Revelations was penned in Koine Greek, and it is a summary of the Holy Bible.

For the Muslim, the Book of Revelation?s authenticity has been confirmed many times over by the undeniable fact that the Koran contains most of its contents within its pages.

How can you ask the Muslim, who is so used to the precision and clarity of the Quran and Arabic (with which you also seem acquainted), to refer to the Biblical books?

The authors of the Koran repeatedly make this claim?.not me?.

As far as demonic locusts are concerned, I'd probably work on that theory a bit by at least looking at the other verses concerning jinn.

Been there?.done that?.

It is absolutely beyond any reasonable doubt that the Koranic concept of Jinns has its genesis in the Biblical Book of Revelation.

Thanks?

shuaib

apple pie,

I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!

Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.

Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?

Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?

Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today. Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED... therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.

You may trick other Christians into believing this falsehood, but no Muslim would be so easily fooled.

Jinns - Demonic locusts??

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.

Andya_Primanda

Just to throw in some facts...

The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels). Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).

The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
I?ll give you one guess who penned the Koranic text as we know it today?..!

Perhaps it was the same people responsible for the PRE-Islamic inscriptions on tombs etc that are found today. Writing was NOT EXCLUSIVE to jews and Christians. the Quran from the earliest has been written in ARABIC and it has never by any historian been suggested that it was written by non-Muslims.

Instead of just jumping to conclusions based on partial truths, how about providing more clear evidence and full logic?
Quote
Additionally?.the authors of the Koran readily admit that they just collected, collated, and translated the previous Jewish and Christian scriptures?.and called it the ?Collection?, or Koran?

Again, a ridiculous claim without any evidence. The word Quran may mean compilation, but it is your OWN assumption that this means the Jewish and Christian books that exist today.

My position is supported straight from the classic Arabic text of the Koran.

I already covered this ground?feel completely free to look at it yourself?

http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40195#40195

Muslims do believe that Jews and Christians were blessed with sacred scriptures at one time, HOWEVER, we believe they were LOST and/or CORRUPTED...

Unfortunately, you are once again taking the stance of Islam?..NOT the Koran.

The Koran has nothing but praise for its Biblical source material.

therefore, the Quran is NOT a compilation of the extant copies of the Torah or Bible.. to claim such would be to claim the Quran is just as bad as those books are. The Quran is a compilation that includes the TRUE messages that have been LOST.

Actually, the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) fall all over themselves proclaiming their Biblical source material.

To deny the Holy Bible is to deny your Koran.

Jinns - Demonic locusts??

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

Does it look like jinn could be DEMONIC LOCUSTS?? It's so nonsensical that its almost a waste of time refuting. Is there anywhere in the Lane's lexicon that you "study" that mention of locusts in the section of jinn? Making claims like this is only going to weaken your stance even further.

Actually, all of the descriptives given to the demonic locusts, as described in the Biblical Book of Revelation, are also given to the Koranic description(s) of the Jinn?and yes, Lane supports my position on this as well?

Thanks for your interest?

unknownuser

Greetings Andya Primanda,

Thanks for your reply?

Just to throw in some facts...

The early revelations mentioned by name in the Qur'an are the Torah, Zabur (Psalms) and Injil (Gospels).

And??.keep going?.

Additionally, thanks for acknowledging that the Koran uses Biblical material?

Therefore, it can safely be said that among all books collected in the Bible, only these three are considered to be from God (and subsequently altered by Jews and Christians).

Don?t forget the Book of Revelation.

The authors of the Koran did not forget.

Additionally, the Koran never once states that the written word of its main source material (Holy Bible) to be in error in any fashion whatsoever?

Remember?..the horse does not bite the hand that feeds it?

The Book of Revelation is not mentioned anywhere in the Qur'an.

Actually, the Book of Revelation is one of the two main Biblical books used by the Koranic authors in the compilation of your book of faith?

You really need to give more credit to the Book of Revelation?for without it, the Koran would fall woefully short in its description of Eschatology, heaven, hell, and the Jinns?just to name a few?

Thanks?

shuaib

apple pie,

i am going to just concentrate on a few points to focus the discussion.

Provide the reference for how Lane supports your idea of jinn=demonic locusts.

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

So tell me which demonic locusts messengers/Prophets you know of , tell me when/how they have been warned of the day of judgement... and there will be many demonic locusts that will have rejected faith and earn hell???

This is so silly it's sad.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

i am going to just concentrate on a few points to focus the discussion.

Provide the reference for how Lane supports your idea of jinn=demonic locusts.

6130 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! came there not unto you messengers from amongst you, setting forth unto you My signs, and warning you of the meeting of this Day of yours?" They will say "We bear witness against ourselves." It was the life of this world that deceived them. So against themselves will they bear witness that they rejected Faith.

So tell me which demonic locusts messengers/Prophets you know of , tell me when/how they have been warned of the day of judgement... and there will be many demonic locusts that will have rejected faith and earn hell???

Here is your ayah in full context for you?

6.128 And a day (when) He gathers them all together, you the Jinn's race, you had become more than the human, and their allies/patrons from the human said "Our Lord, some of us enjoyed with some (of them) and we reached our term/time that You delayed for us." He said "The fire (is) your residence, (you are) immortally in it except what (who) Allah wanted/willed, that your Lord (is) wise/judicious, knowledgeable."

6.129 And like that We appoint/enable some (of) the unjust/oppressors (over) some, because (of) what they (were) earning/gathering.

Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi alam ya/tikum rusulun minkum yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum hatha qaloo shahidna AAala anfusina wagharrat-humu alhayatu alddunya washahidoo AAala anfusihim annahum kanoo kafireena

6.130 You the Jinn's and the human's race, did not MESSENGERS from you come to you, they relay/inform on you My verses/evidences and warn you (of) this your day's/time's meeting? They said "We witnessed/testified on our selves." And the life the present/worldly life had deceived/tempted them, and they witnessed/testified on themselves that they were disbelieving.

6.131 That (is) that your Lord was not destroying the villages/urban cities with injustice, and its people (are) ignoring/disregarding.

Let?s review the word that you want to force-horse ?prophet? into?.

= ?rusulun?

?rusulun? definition

Plural. Bringing a message. A message; a letter; a communication sent from one person or party to another, oral or written. One who has a message; a messenger. Envoy; bearer of a message. It comers from the root ?rasila?, which means he, a camel, was, or became, easy in pace. It, hair, became lank, not crisp. Easy, easy in pace. Gentleness; and a deliberate, or leisurely manner of acting or behaving. Camels. Also of horse or horsemen; applied to a company of men as being likened to a drove, or herd, of camels; and also a distinct collection or number of any things. To send a messenger, bestow, let go.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1081 - 1084
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 210 - 211

Please tell me?where is the word ?prophet??.?

If ?prophet? was meant, then the word ?nabiyyan? would have been used by itself and/or coupled with ?rasoolan?.

It is crystal clear just from the context of your ?proof-text? that this message is (once again) taken from the Book of Revelation ? where all Koranic Jinn material has its genesis?

Just look at the context

Gathering together of the respite ones
Term of respite is complete (the 1,000 years)
Fire is the residence
Messengers are sent out
Destruction of Babylon

Again?simple rehash-ment of Biblical material?.

Thanks...

shuaib

apple pie,

It will take a whole other discussion, but I do not distinguish between Prophet and Messenger, and that is not just an opinion but based on facts and research. I can summarize it by saying that there is no Prophet who receives revelation and keeps it to himself, hence every nabi is a rasool, and the quran often refers to rasool in regards to someone who received revelation directly.

But let's for the sake of this argument, assume there that messengers and prophets are different.

Still, the verse 6130 clearly establishes several things... one, there is/was a population of JINN. Some of those jinn were chosen as MESSENGERS, to warn the OTHER jinn of the last day.however some of them will not heed the warning.

Do you believe in an alternate universe of insect men or something???

7179 Many are the JINNs and men we have made for Hell They have hearts wherewith they understand not, eyes wherewith they see not, and ears wherewith they hear not. They are like cattle,- nay more misguided for they are heedless (of warning).

So the locusts also have ears, hearts, and eyes with which they COULD understand the message??

1788 Say "If the whole of mankind and JINNs were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

Jinn can write?

4129 And the Unbelievers will say "Our Lord! Show us those, among Jinns and men, who misled us We shall crush them beneath our feet, so that they become the vilest (before all)."

Jinns can MISLEAD men?

726 'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

Men taking shelter with DEMONIC LOCUSTS??

721 Say It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

4629 Behold, We turned towards thee a company of Jinns (quietly) listening to the Qur'an when they stood in the presence thereof, they said, "Listen in silence!" When the (reading) was finished, they returned to their people, to warn (them of their sins).

Jinns listened to the Quran, and liked it??

5556 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

Apparently these DEMONIC locusts are capable of other human things hmm???

Demonic locusts??? Dont make me laugh.

Again, provide your evidence from Lane's that JINN=DEMONIC LOCUSTS. If you ignore this again I will assume you can't and that your entire argument is invalid. You've also repeatedly ignored my request to explain why you sometimes adhere to Lane's strictly and sometimes not.

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your comments?

It will take a whole other discussion, but I do not distinguish between Prophet and Messenger, and that is not just an opinion but based on facts and research. I can summarize it by saying that there is no Prophet who receives revelation and keeps it to himself, hence every nabi is a rasool, and the quran often refers to rasool in regards to someone who received revelation directly.

Well?I think that you have just uncovered your confusion?you are attempting to equate a prophet with a messenger in each and every occurrence in your book of faith.

I demonstrated to you (in your very own posited example of 6.130) that the Koran is not referencing a prophet, but simply rehashing Biblical Book of Revelation Eschatological material?

But let's for the sake of this argument, assume there that messengers and prophets are different.

This would be a good start?

Still, the verse 6130 clearly establishes several things... one, there is/was a population of JINN. Some of those jinn were chosen as MESSENGERS, to warn the OTHER jinn of the last day.however some of them will not heed the warning.

Jinn warning other Jinn?.?!

Exactly how do you derive that from the text?

Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Let?s review your examples one at a time, in reverse order, starting with sura 55?

5556 In them will be (Maidens), chaste, restraining their glances, whom no man or Jinn before them has touched;-

Apparently these DEMONIC locusts are capable of other human things hmm???

Demonic locusts??? Dont make me laugh.

Let?s review your ignorance?

Feehinna qasiratu alttarfi lam yatmithhunna insun qablahum wala jannun

5556 In them restraining the eyes, were not touched (by) a human before them, and nor Jinn.

First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

= ?janna?

?janna? definition

Singular. Masculine. Overshadowed; Covered, to be dark, cover, wrap, conceal, be mad, dark, be hidden to, be excited, veiling, or concealing from the sense, intelligent invisible bodies predominantly of the fiery or of the aerial quality, diabolical or demonical; a great serpent.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 462 - 464
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 104 - 105

So?right from the start, we have the understanding that the Koranic Jinn are

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent

Do I need to reference the Book of Revelation, or are you familiar with the parallel descriptions that the authors of the Koran are using??

Next?please review a few of the key terms used in this ayah?

= ?qasiratu?

?qasiratu? definition

Restraining, modest (looks). It comes from the root ?qasara?, which means it, (a thing, i.e. anything) was, or became, short; it was, or became too short; he left, desisted from, neglected, or left undone, a thing, or part thereof, from inability; he left or relinquished it; he made it short; he shortened it; took from its length. The night withheld them; namely a company of riders upon camels or other beasts. He beat, washed, and whitened, the cloth, or garment. The falling, or stopping, or coming short of accomplishing an affair; or of doing what one aught, or is commanded to do; or flagging, or remissness. The act of confining, restricting, limiting. to shorten, cut short, curtail, confine, restrict. It was, or became, short, or too short. The afternoon or evening; the time before the sun becomes yellow; the time of the mixing of the darkness. A palace; a pavilion, or kind of building wholly or for the most part isolated, sometimes on the top of a larger building, i.e. a belvedere, and sometimes projecting from a larger building, and generally consisting of one room if forming a part of a larger building or connected with another building. A well known type of edifice; a mansion or house; or any house or chamber of stone. Large and dry, or large and thick, or dry, firewood. The necks of men, and of camels.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2532 - 2536
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 456

= ?ttarfi?

?ttarfi? definition

Eye; glance; sight; looking; blinking; Yemenite noble messenger. Noble man in respect of ancestry. It comes from the root ?tarafa?, which means he looked from the outer angle of the eye; or he twinkled with his eye; he put the edge of his eyelid in motion, or in a state of commotion; to twinkle (eyes), hurt (the eye) and make it water, be newly acquired (property), descend from an ancient family, attack the extremity of the enemy lines, chose a thing. It (property) was recently, or newly, acquired; or it (a thing) was good (and recent or new or fresh). He, a man, fought around the army. Anything chosen or choice. A generous horse., one that is looked at because of its beauty. A horse long in the legs or the neck, having the ears pointed, tapered, or slender at the extremities. The extremity or end of anything; a side; a lateral, or an outward, or adjacent, part or portion; a region, district, quarter, or tract; and a part, portion, piece of a thing. The tongue.

the putting the eyelids in motion, or in a state of commotion, in looking. The act of looking. The eye. The slapping with the hand upon the extremity of the eye; the striking upon the head. The name of two stars, so called because they are regarded as the two eyes of Leo; one of the mansions of the moon; or the star in the face of Leo; or the bright star on the hinder, southern leg or foot (i.e. claw) of cancer.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 1841- 1846
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 337 -338

Thus?.it is clear that your example, from sura 55, demonstrates my position quite well..

Furthermore, as sura 55 is completely Biblical material?

We are told this from the very start of the sura?.

AAallama alqur-ana

552 He taught/instructed the Koran.

= ?AAallama?

?AAallama? definition

Masculine singular. He taught. An impression, or impress; or a footstep, or track, or trace. Of a garment, or piece of cloth i.e. the ornamental, or figured, or variegated border of borders thereof; the figured or variegated, or embroidered, work or decoration, in the borders thereof. A way-mark; i.e. a thing set up or erected in the way, or, in the deserts or waterless deserts for guidance, for the guidance of those going astray. A separation between two lands; a mountain; a long mountain. A banner or standard, to which the soldiers congregate; the thing i.e. flag , or strip of cloth that is tied upon the spear; the chief of a people or party. A proper name of a person or place. It comes from the root ?alama?, which means to mark, sign, distinguish. He knew it; or he was, or became, acquainted with it; or he knew it truly, or certainly. He knew a thing intuitively and inferentially. He marked it. He, a man, had a fissure in his upper lip; or in one of its two sides. Knowledge.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume five, pp. 2138 - 2142
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 383 - 385

And?a review of what the Koran is?.

= ?alqur-ana?

?alqur-ana? definition

Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.

is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.

It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449

Thus?it is pretty clear what will be following this introduction?.Biblical material?

In a nutshell, this sura (once again) proclaims the divinity of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!!!

The Biblical Book of Revelation was utilized by the authors of the Koran in their construction of this sura?and much of the Koranic concepts of Heaven/Hell/& Jinns, all had their genesis in the Book of Revelation?.!

This sura more or less ?separates? its topics by the following phrase?

Fabi-ayyi ala-i rabbikuma tukaththibani

5513 Then with which (of) your Lord's blessings will you twain deny?

The two (twain) that it is referring to is mankind and the Jinns?

Hence, the ayah in question is also fully loaded with Biblical ?Jinn? material.

It should be pointed-out that the demonic locusts as described in Revelation chapter 9 are the source material for the Koranic concept of ?Jinns??.

Let?s quickly review?

Fa-itha inshaqqati alssamao fakanat wardatan kaalddihani

5537 So if the sky/space split/cut open, so it was a red/a rose as/like the paint/painted with oil.

= ?inshaqqati?

?inshaqqati? definition

Feminine singular. She rent asunder. It comes from the root ?shaqqa?, which means to split, cleave, spread (in the sky), lightning, place under difficulty, impose hard condition. The half of a thing of any kind, or the half of a thing when it is cloven; or split, or divided lengthwise. The counterpart of a person or thing. A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume four, pp. 1575 - 1579
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 295 - 296

= ?wardatan?

?wardatan? definition

Noun. A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow. Bloom; bud; rose; hide. It comes from the root ?warada?, which means to be present, arrive at (any water to drink), go down into, draw near to (a place). A horse, or other thing, of a red color inkling to yellow, beautiful in everything. Bold or daring; an epithet applied to a man. A lion.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 2935 - 2936
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607

= ?ddihani?

?ddihani? definition

Noun. A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror, like diverse oils; slippery; oil. It is also a plural of ?duhnun?, which means oil. Oil with which one anoints It comes from the root ?dahana/dahina?, which means to anoint, strike (with a stick), moisten, blandish, pleasantly smooth, agreeable and suave, dissemble with, coax, be pliant, grease, dis-simulate.

References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 926 - 927
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 606 - 607

Mentioned in this ayah?

The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
A horse? A bright or yellowish bay color; a color between that of a horse that is red inclining to yellow.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
A red hide; red leather; and shall become red, or of a rose color, or of a red color inkling to yellow, or like the hide that is of a pure red color; and shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.

Thus?.just from these two ayahs pulled out from sura 55, we have been told the following regarding the Jinn

Intelligent
They have bodies
They are invisible
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings
Demonical
Likened to a great serpent
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being.
An epithet applied to a man. A lion.
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror.

So?I ask you?.

With which of your Lord?s blessings will you deny?.?

shuaib

apple pie,

Jinn warning other Jinn?.?! Exactly how do you derive that from the text?
Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Allow me to enlighten you.

6130 Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi OH ASSEMBLY OF MEN AND JINN, alam ya/tikum rusulun HAVE NOT COME TO YOU MESSENGERS minkum FROM AMONGST YOU yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum setting forth unto you my signs and warning of the day.. etc

That you could not understand even this obvious verse shows that you are not attempting to understand the Quran... your only desire is to find cannon fodder for your crusade.

First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

Before we start, you can go ahead and omit references The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar from your discussions. I have found that dictionary to be fraught with inaccuracies, the topic of jinn being a prime example. Those definitions are NOT based on the language, they are based on traditions like HADITH.

You go on to provide a dizzying amount of text, however, not in ANY instance did you explain how INSECTS or LOCUSTS fit into the picture. WASNT THAT MY MAIN COMPLAINT TO YOU?

I am not arguing with you about them being some humanoid creature...

Intelligent - agree
They have bodies - agree
They are invisible - for sake of argument, agree
Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire - DISAGREE, only JANN have been linked to smokeless fire, and that was only in their CREATION
They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings - DISAGREE, meaning based on HADITH
Demonical - DISAGREE, although the word jinn may be used to demons/ghosts, it is not EXCLUSIVELY used in such a way
Likened to a great serpent - DISAGREE, based on HADITH
8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being. - DISAGREE, have no idea what source you got this from... BIBLE? Aren't we deriving the meaning of jinn from Arabic/Quran??
An epithet applied to a man. A lion. - again DISAGREE, no viable source
shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror. - DISAGREE, what on earth???

For your points 5 onwards, you have NOT used reliable sources and CERTAINLY have not derived meanings from the Quran. You simply slide in Biblical material thinking somehow we'll be duped into thinking its from our own books.

Nice try.

Another bizarre thing you've started is using random words from random verses like 5537, to support your claims. 5537 is giving an example of the end of days, and somehow you link the words to the definition of Jinn? What's the matter, running out of material?? Now you just randomly pluck words from other verses and hope no one notices that the verse has nothing to do with jinn???

I on the other hand have given Quranic verses directly showing JINN have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with locusts/insects. They listened to the Quran, they warned of the day of judgement, etc etc etc.

You conveniently ignored the verses that you'd have a harder time twisting to your ways, and again you could not provide WHERE Lane has mentioned JINN=LOCUSTS.

Is this the kind of reasoning and debating Muslims should expect of all Christians??

unknownuser

Greetings shuaib,

Thanks for your reply?

Quote
Jinn warning other Jinn?.?! Exactly how do you derive that from the text?
Specifically exegete this ayah and demonstrate to us why you feel as you do?

Allow me to enlighten you.

6130 Ya maAAshara aljinni waal-insi OH ASSEMBLY OF MEN AND JINN, alam ya/tikum rusulun HAVE NOT COME TO YOU MESSENGERS minkum FROM AMONGST YOU yaqussoona AAalaykum ayatee wayunthiroonakum liqaa yawmikum setting forth unto you my signs and warning of the day.. etc

That you could not understand even this obvious verse shows that you are not attempting to understand the Quran... your only desire is to find cannon fodder for your crusade.

I specifically requested for you to exegete the ayah yourself.

What?s the matter?.may take too much of your precious time?or you don?t have any references?or, better yet?.you flat out don?t know how to exegete?

Which is it?.?

Quote
First?what are the Jinn?.exactly?.

Before we start, you can go ahead and omit references The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar from your discussions. I have found that dictionary to be fraught with inaccuracies, the topic of jinn being a prime example. Those definitions are NOT based on the language, they are based on traditions like HADITH.

Wrong.

If you actually owned a copy of Omar?s Dictionary (which you obviously don?t because that would require an expenditure that you are unwilling to put into the understanding of your book of faith); then you would have known that Omar quotes Lane?s Lexicon almost exclusively.

You go on to provide a dizzying amount of text, however, not in ANY instance did you explain how INSECTS or LOCUSTS fit into the picture.

Don?t worry?.we are building to that?

You need to be more concerned about what we have covered thus far, and how it is beyond any reasonable doubt that the authors of the Koran copied Book of Revelation material. wink

I am not arguing with you about them being some humanoid creature...

As if you actually could?

Intelligent - agree
They have bodies - agree
They are invisible - for sake of argument, agree

So far so good?

Pertain to fire; i.e. emit fire; color of fire - DISAGREE, only JANN have been linked to smokeless fire, and that was only in their CREATION

Apparently, you have not looked at sura 100?

They have the capability of flight, i.e. they have wings - DISAGREE, meaning based on HADITH

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

Demonical - DISAGREE, although the word jinn may be used to demons/ghosts, it is not EXCLUSIVELY used in such a way

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

Likened to a great serpent - DISAGREE, based on HADITH

Wrong.

Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

8 ) The counterpart of a person? A certain kind of the jinn, or genii; a species of diabolical beings having the form of the half of a human being. - DISAGREE, have no idea what source you got this from... BIBLE? Aren't we deriving the meaning of jinn from Arabic/Quran??

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

An epithet applied to a man. A lion. - again DISAGREE, no viable source

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

shall become (red) of various colors by reason of very great terror. - DISAGREE, what on earth???

Again?Based upon Lane?s Lexicon.

For your points 5 onwards, you have NOT used reliable sources and CERTAINLY have not derived meanings from the Quran.

So?.now you are calling E.W. Lane, the worlds leading Arabist of all time, into question?

And your grounds for doing this??

Pulling it straight from out of your gluteus region.

You never bother to reference your ?opinion? because it is exactly that?opinion?.

You have no leg to stand on.

No counter argument.

No references.

Nothing.

Period.

I on the other hand have given verses to show that JINN have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with locusts/insects.

The only thing that you have shown is sheer ignorance with regard to your book of faith?

Your response is quite pathetic.

Thanks?