Is Scripture ABSOLUTE TRUTH or A TRUTH?
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Hello zenje,
you wrote
"Part of the Absolute Truth"Is that not same as A TRUTH?
But as I have told you before in a another thread that all scripture came through and written by flawed human beings. Divine "hand" did not write anything on paper or stone. So how can we be sure that it is "part of the absolute" truth?
Regards,
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Peace Lote Tree,
Thank you for the stimulus.
My understanding thus far is that those fortunate enough to have been able to tap into the Divine Frequency (Prophets) certainly passed along the information with perfection. However, what happens to the message after it has been delivered is always supsect, if looked at objectively. Therefore, to know "for sure" would require the criterion of 2 references the mind, and the soul.
The mind filters out the illogical from the logical, and the soul confirms whether the logical can be true, from a spiritual standpoint.
As calculated and methodical as this sounds, put into practice, it far easier said then done.
Peace,
Tay -
Let me elaborate my original question so that others will have a fuller understanding of the context in which this particular question is set.
The Prophets, Seers, Mystics and the Great Sages of the bygone ages of the world have insisted, that Divine is beyond Language and Reason (even simple meditation techniques can allow you to glimpse a reality that lies beyond ordinary rational thought processes). The Prophets, Seers, Mystics and Sages have also insisted, that the meeting with Divinity is never a "logical" encounter. Even Prophet Muhammad did not reach out to the Highest Universe for the revelations, but rather, he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative trance", to meet his maker. So if the meeting between Man and Divinity is never a ?logical? encounter, then anything we can say about the Divine will be a "rationalised" account of this meeting. That is why I believe, like you, that Scripture is A TRUTH not the ABSOLUTE TRUTH, because no single human mind can comprehend the absolute truth. However, by saying scripture is A TRUTH does not, in anyway, in my view, put the Divinity of the Scripture in doubt nor does it undermine its immense spiritual value to mankind.
Regards,
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Since it makes no difference to you... I'll stick to my definition.
A TRUTH, IMO, is a little watered down. That I'm losing my hair is A TRUTH. wink
Peace
But we are not interested in hair -)
A TRUTH is just that A TRUTH, nothing watered down here.
Regards,
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Yep no problem we can disagree on the definition. -) But I have looked at your statement again.
You wrote "Part of the Absolute Truth". I would say that is incorrect. It is not part of the Absolute rather A TRUTH of the Absolute.
Anyway thank you for your contribution in this debate.
Regards,
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Peace Lt,
You might be interested in a verse in the Quran which talks about the Day of Judgement and this being the Absolute Truth, I read a verse saying ' this is the absolute truth', don't know about errors in translation or whether the Creator was referring the the Day of Judgement or the actual Scripture.
Peace
Nural
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salam Lotetree.
First of all Noah, I don't take Quran as the whole truth or absolute truth. In fact I don't take any scripture to be the whole truth or absolute truth.
salam Lotetree.
which part of the koran do u consider to be true("A TRUTH") ?
i have asked u this question before too , but u didnt reply .As I have said before - All religions assert that God is beyond Reason and Language. So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason?
God is beyond reason , so why are u trying in vain to use your REASON to understand God ? and what exactly do u wanna understand about God using ur reason that u cant understand using the koran ?
and where does the koran say that God is beyond language ? the best way to teach humans is by language . in fact the attributes of God in the koran are very easy to understand . and dont u agree with the attributes of God in the koran ?
Therefore scripture is an "interpretation" of a reality that is beyond words and reason. And there is no "this bit is true" and "this bit is false", all of it is an "interpretation" in human language.
so u agree that Koran was revealed to Muhammad , but Muhammad might have misinterpreted it ?
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Hello Saladin,
God is beyond reason , so why are u trying in vain to use your REASON to understand God ?
Ah Saladin. Now you come to the point. Reason is very important. REASON takes you to the limits of human undertanding and no more.
what attributes of God mentioned in the koran do u think are unreasonable ? the attributes very simple and straighforward . what attributes besides the are u trying to understand about God using ur reason ?
and how can u say God is "wordless reality" ?!
This is the insight that all the great seers, sages, prophets and mystics have arrived at independently...
why do u follow their opinion . which of their opinion u think are more reasonable than the koran ?
and where does the koran say that God is beyond language ?
Our REASON is tied to our language. Read Heidegger, Saladin.
the best way to teach humans is by language
That is true. But to understand God reason is not enough because God is beyond reason. Reason will take you so far but at the final encounter with the Divine, REASON is "trascended".
to understand the attributes of God in the koran is very easy . it takes no einstien to understand them . i think u would agree with all the attributes of God in the koran . after that what is important are the laws that God has created for us . the laws that we must apply in this world in order to be successful . what better way to teach those laws except by language ? we are not able to understand God fully ofcourse , but His laws and system are not a ?wordless reality? . he teaches us those laws through his scriptures . what do u say ?
so u agree that Koran was revealed to Muhammad , but Muhammad might have misinterpreted it ?
I believe that Muhammad did encounter the Divine but he had no choice but interpret his encounter with the limited capabilities of language of his day.
how can u say this ?!! koran does not indicate even slightly any such thing like this , that the koran is the word of muhammad !!!
But Language does not justice to the reality he was trying to convey.
again how can u say such things ?! what was the purpose of the "encounter" . what do u think ?! to let him misinterpret the revelations of God ?!
the Koran makes it clear that Muhammad did not give his own opinions in the Koran , but the koran is the word of God . back your words.I would not say misinterpretation but rather language is inadequate to describe the wordless reality that is God...
the laws of God are not wordless . God used straightforward language to communicate with humans . God informed us about the attributes of His that we would be able to understand . God is not a wordless reality .
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Hello Saladin,
what attributes of God mentioned in the koran do u think are unreasonable ? the attributes very simple and straighforward . what attributes besides the are u trying to understand about God using ur reason?
Have you compared Koranic descriptions of "God" with Buddhist descriptions of Nirvana? Or the Mystics encounter of the Divine? You will see Saladin they are very similiar! What does that tell us about the reality of God?
and how can u say God is "wordless reality" ?!
Try meditation Saladin, then you will realise there is another level of perception which lies beyond ordinary "rational" thought processes...
why do u follow their opinion . which of their opinion u think are more reasonable than the koran ?
Come Saladin, if Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics say the same thing about the reality of God which is also in the Quran - what does that tell you about the human experience of the Divine?
to understand the attributes of God in the koran is very easy.
it takes no einstien to understand them . i think u would agree with all the attributes of God in the koran .Hey Saladin, suprisingly enough, so would the Great Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics! -) so again I ask you what does that tell us about the nature and the human experience of God?
we are not able to understand God fully ofcourse...
That is the challenge Saladin. To use our REASON, INTUITIONS and IMAGINATIONS to develop an understanding of GOD that goes beyond SCRIPTURE. This is the way to spiritual and intellectual growth as an individual. Obedience to scriptural rules will not make you grow Saladin, spiritually or intellecutally.
after that what is important are the laws that God has created for us . the laws that we must apply in this world in order to be successful . what better way to teach those laws except by language ? we are not able to understand God fully ofcourse , but His laws and system are not a ?wordless reality? . he teaches us those laws through his scriptures . what do u say ?
But I say to you Saladin again that the language of the scripture is that of the 6th Arabia, the Morality of the scripture is the morality of the 6th century Arabia. That is why you get "spoils of war" being distributed amongst the victors. That is why the victims of war becomes your "Right Hand" possesion that can be made into slaves and concubines. This kind of Morality is unacceptable in this century. Are you saying we should apply this kind morality in our present century?
how can u say this ?!! koran does not indicate even slightly any such thing like this, that the koran is the word of muhammad !!!
the Koran makes it clear that Muhammad did not give his own opinions in the Koran , but the koran is the word of God . back your words.You can't justify this using Koran itself Saladin. If the Koran itself says it is not the word of Muhammad, how can you be sure? Does mere claim that it is not word of Muhammad make it that it is not the word of Muhammad? That is the catch isn't it Saladin? There is no getting away from this. You either have faith in it or you don't or you use your own reason, intuition and imaginations to develop an understanding of God that goes beyond scripture...
Again how can u say such things?! what was the purpose of the "encounter". what do u think ?! to let him misinterpret the revelations of God ?!
You have no idea how religious experience comes about do you? It comes from meditation, contemplation and reflection. It is these things that Muhammad used to do in his Ramadan retreat according to traditions (I know you may reject all these traditions as basis of religious doctrine and thats ok, but they provide some historical insights how the revelations came about, and so do the experiences of the Hebrew Prophets, Seers, Sages and Mystics provide further insights into the nature of the human experience of Divine). You enter the Divine Realm when you go beyond yourself, when trascend language and reason in a "meditative trance" - this the wordless reality that we call God. The only way to verify that there is a another level of perception from the ordinary rational thought processes is to practice meditation, reflection and contemplation...
Regards,