THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION

hlatif

Salaam Natu,

I think that what you are trying to do is noble. I would like to introduce my close to literal interpretation of the Ayah, so that people can judge better.

And WE (GOD) made the house a place of return to the people and Safety. And take the place of standing of Abraham as a place of SALAT. And WE (GOD) asked of Abraham and ISMAEL that cleanse my house to the ones that circle around, the ones that stay around and the ones that bow and prostrate (or voluntarily show signs of submission.)

Note
1- I left Salat as is since it is the area of discussion and I felt that this is the better way to leave it until we (as a group) agree what it is.
2- I do not agree that Sujood is submission. The reason is this AYAH

6842 The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to perform sujood, but they shall not be able,-

So, that day (day of judgement), everything about them is submitting, but they still cannot perform Sujood.

Salaam all and have a good day.

Hussein

Natu

Thank you for your kind words Hussein.

And WE (GOD) made the house a place of return to the people and Safety.

I would disagree that here it is referring to the house, becuase the verse itself does not make clear which house this is, nor does the context of the verse. Technically, wherever 'the house' is, we cannot all return to it, becuase we don't all come from the same house. Perhaps it may be better understood as 'system' - becuase it makes reference to safety and return. My understanding is such that the 'system' prescribed by God in the Quran is so that we may return (to God) to "the people" (possibly referring to those that are righteous in heaven), and safety (a description of heaven, in which we will not be troubled in any way.

And take the place of standing of Abraham as a place of SALAT.

I would also disagree here. Because we cannot possibly all take the place wherehe was standing as place to 'salat'. Even if this is accepted that it refers to a placewhere he was stood, we cannot know where exactly he was standing. I believe that is is more accurately translated as "and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed" - becuase I find it that it makes more sense.

And WE (GOD) asked of Abraham and ISMAEL that cleanse my house to the ones that circle around, the ones that stay around and the ones that bow and prostrate (or voluntarily show signs of submission.)

I think it makes more sense if it is translated as system here also, because it says "cleanse my house to the ones that...

If it is understood that Abraham and Ismael cleanse the system to people, it makes it clear that the system is for the people described later. I believe that in this case God is not saying 'my system' because the verse is referring to the system/mode of practices present at the time of Abraham and Ismael, hence 'the system'.

to the ones that circle around, the ones that stay around and the ones that bow and prostrate

Using this translation, one gets the impression that the people being described are those on pilgrimage, circumambulating bowing and prostrating. However, it is not clear from this translation who it is that 'stays around'. Thus, I would agree with the translation "for groups of people ? and those who are devoted ? and those who humbly submit?

It could be argued that 'groups of people'doesn't make sense, however I wouldsay that God is makingit clear that his system is being cleansed not justfor a few individuals, but for many,who will come enthusiastically and in great numbers, whole communities deciding to submit together.

6842 The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to perform sujood, but they shall not be able,-

I would say that submission does make sense here, becuase they have lost their chance to submit - it will have no effect now, since God will restrict them fromjoining the righteous. Idon't think this verse indicates any kind of physical movement.

unknownuser

Salaams Latif

just for a joke though-Someones Answer - and not mine-Thanks.

Have you ever come accross"Kshafat an Saqaiha"

An Arabic idiom meaning to become prepared to meet the dificulty or to become perturbed or perplexed or ataken a back .Only ignorance of the Arabic language would make anyone adapt the literal significance of the phrase which literally means She uncovered and bared her shanks (2744).Simerlarly the meanings of Yukshafu an Saqin (6842)means there is severe affliction and the truth laid here.It is indicative of a grievous and terrible calamity and difficulty.

God Bless us.

hlatif

Thanks Natu for your response,

Even if this is accepted that it refers to a placewhere he was stood, we cannot know where exactly he was standing.

He probably stood all around it if he built it. Therefore, any place around the house is a place where Abraham stood. You would not think that Abraham stood in only one place in that area.

If it is understood that Abraham and Ismael cleanse the system to people, it makes it clear that the system is for the people described later. I believe that in this case God is not saying 'my system' because the verse is referring to the system/mode of practices present at the time of Abraham and Ismael, hence 'the system'.

To me, the word system is vague. Can you define it? Also how can you linguistically connect it to BAIT? Then how do you cleanse it?

However, it is not clear from this translation who it is that 'stays around'

It is the people that live in the area around the place.

I would say that submission does make sense here, becuase they have lost their chance to submit - it will have no effect now, since God will restrict them fromjoining the righteous. Idon't think this verse indicates any kind of physical movement.

I would disagree, since the AYAH does not say, it is too late. It simply says they cannot. Saying too late would be changing the words of the Ayah. The AYAH also indicates that they are summoned to do it. So, they are asked to do it and they cannot.

Take care Natu and have good day

Hussein

Natu

Peace.

Hussein said

He probably stood all around it if he built it. Therefore, any place around the house is a place where Abraham stood. You would not think that Abraham stood in only one place in that area.

That?s a good point; I made the mistake of limiting ?standing place of Abraham? to just where his feet were, and not his general location. However, using this translation leaves it ambiguous, as to which ?general location? God is talking about, it could be anywhere, and not necessarily in ?the house?, because if it was, then the two wouldn?t necessarily be considered separately, it would say something like ?And we made the house of return to the people and safety, and take the house as a place of SALAT. Now, it could be said that in the same way God says ?Obey God and Obey the messenger?, the two things don?t become separate?, then ?the house? and ?Abraham?s standing place can be the same thing?, but the thing is, with obey God and obey the messenger, verses all over the Quran link the two together to show that Obeying the God is the same as obeying the messenger?, but in this case there are no such verses which link ?the house? to ?Abraham?s standing place?, I think if the translations of ?standing place? and ?house? are used the verse becomes to ambiguous to understand, without having prior knowledge of what ?the house? is. (By the way, I not too sure that Abraham built ?the house?; we shall discuss this later, God willing, first we need to establish whether the verse is actually talking about a house or a system).

Hussein said

To me, the word system is vague. Can you define it? Also how can you linguistically connect it to BAIT? Then how do you cleanse it?

Thank you for asking this question. This concept was actually something that I had difficulty getting my head around originally, but now I think I can give an explanation for it in this context. The word system may appear vague, but in this verse the context it is given means that to me it makes sense, and here is my explanation for it.

Looking at the verse immediately before (2124)?

?And Abraham was tested by commands from His Lord, which he completed. He said ?I will make you a leader for the people.? He said ?And also from my progeny?? He said ?My pledge will not encompass the wicked.?

God talks about testing Abraham, and also talks of leadership. Both of these interlink to form what can be a seen as a system created by God, in the way that the system (effectively software to run the world, which is the hardware) tests us and because he used to complete his commandments given in the test system, he was made a leader. The leadership aspect also creates a system of authority for Abraham, which indicates the presence of a system of rewarding for passing tests in the system. The reason I have used the word system so much in this paragraph is to show how al these sub-systems come under one overall system, and that is effectively what God has created for us, a system to live and be tested in. Cleansing the system simply involves Abraham and Ishmael should act like anti-virus software in the system, clearing out the dirt. And this dirt, as I have put it, is corruption and ?deen? (ways of life, which is not in line with that which is prescribed by God in his revealed scriptures). Effectively, when we ourselves promote the monotheist we have been blessed with, we are behaving like anti-virus equipment, which attempts to clear out false-practice and clean out the system people are living in. Now it could be said, why did God not use ?zakat? (purify) in the verse instead of ?cleanse? ? well the answer to that is that purifying involves improving. Let me explain with an example. We could just be walking down a street, not doing anything, and purifying ourselves would involve getting more connected with the unseen God, and think about him instead of indulging in worldly thoughts. And cleansing ourselves in the same scenario would mean that if we were planning how to beat someone up, or swearing at someone whilst thinking, then we ought to cleanse ourselves of the ill thoughts. That?s the distinction between purifying and cleansing.

Hussein said

It is the people that live in the area around the place.

The difference we are considering is between ?the ones that stay around? and ?those who are devoted? ? The issue is about the meaning of the word ?al-akifeen?. Sadly, my Arabic is only good enough to tell me something like ?wa? means ?and?, lol, and that is how I worked out that this word is the one that is causing the problem! I humbly request for the help of people who can advise on the definition of this word (al-akifeen) ? ?Waqas? could probably help, or anybody else who has access to a lexicon or can otherwise help us see this issue with more clarity. My understanding at this moment in time is that since this word can be translated either way, it cannot be seen as a deciding factor as to what is being referred to, a ?house? or a ?system?. If he so wills, God will show us the right way.

Hussein said

I would disagree, since the AYAH does not say, it is too late. It simply says they cannot. Saying too late would be changing the words of the Ayah. The AYAH also indicates that they are summoned to do it. So, they are asked to do it and they cannot.

I understand what you mean when you say that God does not say it is too late. Perhaps the following explanation may be more accurate. I think we need to look at what it means to submit in this context. Generally, when we are told to submit, we naturally understand that we are to believe God and do what he tells us. So I understand why you say that this cannot mean submit on the last day, because everyone will realise that day anyway, so with the worldly understanding everyone will be submitting anyway. Taking that into account it appears that prostrating may be a more appropriate translation, since God could physically disable them from prostrating. However, looking at in perspective, it don?t understand how the God will allow such as situation where the believers will prostrate to him, and the unbelievers will not be prostrating, which may make it look as though they are in a better position, free from prostrating. However, this is not sufficient to reject ?prostrate? as the correct translation, because God can do whatever he wants, we are nothing to object. Therefore, I think we need to understand what it may mean to be told to submit on the last day. Lets look at the act of submitting ? it can be seen as giving God what he asks for. And since God asks for righteous deeds, so the righteous will be able to ?submit? their good deeds/goodness to God, but the unbelievers will be unable to, since they will have nothing to ?submit?. That is perhaps why the verse actually say ?but they shall not be able? and not ?they will not be facilitated to do so? or something like that. God doesn?t say that he will stop them from sujood; he tells us that they will just not have the ability to sujood. I hope I haven?t used the English word ?submit? too loosely here, to mean both giving something, and doing something, but giving something is actually seen as doing something, rather than not doing something. The actual giving of goodness/good deeds is not mentioned, which I think is only becuase the context of this verse gives 'submit' its meaning itself. I hope I have been clear enough.

Many thanks, take care.

hlatif

Salaam Natu and thanks for your response,

However, using this translation leaves it ambiguous, as to which ?general location? God is talking about, it could be anywhere, and not necessarily in ?the house?, because if it was, then the two wouldn?t necessarily be considered separately

Ibrahim stood in the house and in the area outside of it and surrounding it. All those places can be places for someone to take as Place of Salat. Today, muslims pray outside the house, however, they also can pray inside the house. Only a few do because of the small space, but it has never been forbidden to pray inside.

The point about BAIT

You said

Technically, wherever 'the house' is, we cannot all return to it, becuase we don't all come from the same house

Actually the word Mathab means return. This could be the return to your origin, or the return to place that you visited before. For example you can return to the same beach that you viisted many times. This would be my understanding, that people visit and revisit this house.

My issues with SYSTEM

1- The word that Qur'an used for what you talked about are mainly two Islam and DEEN. Therefore the use of BAIT to mean system is suspect, in my eyes.
2- You still have to connect this understanding with the actual meaning of the word BAIT
iam attaching prl's meaning
= Ba-Ya-Ta =

by/in/at night (excluding sleep), entered upon or passed the night
tent, house, home
Thinking about something and its end result
Concealed or conceived something in the mind
A structure of clay or any structure signifying a habitation, an abode or dwelling.
Buildings, uninhabited houses, shops, ruins, bazaars, places where the entering is allowed by the owners.
Ark of Noah, Mosques, places of worship, Kaabeh or Jerusalem
A grave
Household or family
Nobility
Sudden attack in the night or a surprise attack in the night
Remaining through the night (e.g. bread or water that stays out and becomes stale)

As you can see the meanings have a general theme and System has to meet it to be feasible.

3- The business of return to the system. People were not in the system to return to it. And, if you understand return as people who come and go and come and go then that would not be feasible since people are not supposed to come in the system and leave it and come back and leave it again.

4- You do not clean GOD's system. The system is clean. It is the people who need cleaning. Ibrahim cleaned the BAIT and not the people

5- Why do you need groups of people to come to GOD's system. GOD's sytem is for all people and not groups of people.

Then the point about submision

Lets look at the act of submitting ? it can be seen as giving God what he asks for

This is my problem with this argument You took a disputed arabic word Sujood and said it means Submission as in submitting to GOD's will. Then, you are stretching it further to make it mean Deliver. While deliver can be ok for the English submission, it is NOT OK for the ARABIC Sujood

Salaam Natu and have a great day

Hussein

Natu

Peace bro,

It appears that both my view and your view have some level of inconsistency, and I must admit that my side of things currently appears to have more weakness than that on your side. My suggestion is that we make clear comparison between the following specific bits of each translation of the verse, the translation you have kindly provided and that which Aidid Safar did

No ritual translation
And when We made the system as providence for mankind and harmony ? and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed. And We gave instructions to Abraham and Ishmael that ? they should cleanse My system for groups of people ? and those who are devoted ? and those who humbly submit

Ritual Supporting Translation
And WE (GOD) made the house a place of return to the people and Safety. And take the place of standing of Abraham as a place of SALAT. And WE (GOD) asked of Abraham and ISMAEL that cleanse my house to the ones that circle around, the ones that stay around and the ones that bow and prostrate (or voluntarily show signs of submission.)

OBJECTIVE A

We need to compare ?a place of return to the people? with ?as providence for mankind?. The Arabic in question is , and the PM translation shows this as ?a model for the people?

OBJECTIVE B

We need to compare ?take the place of standing? with ?you shall take from the position?. The Arabic in question is . One thing I do know is that means ?from?, so the accurate translation of ? ? is ?and take from? and this appears in Aidid?s translation, but not the other, so in this respect Aidid?s translation is more accurate. This is not an issue, I presume you agree. The crucial point of discussion is the definition of ?? . We need to consider the meaning of this word.

OBJECTIVE C

We need to consider the definition of ?? This has been translated as ?the ones that circle around? and ?for groups of people?

OBJECTIVE D

We need to consider the definition of ?? This has been translated as ?the ones that stay around? and ?and those who are devoted?

(By the way I hope you agree with the way I have structured this discussion, first we will discuss objective A, and then move onto the others sequentially.)

OBJECTIVE A

Aidid Safar defines ?providence? as ?an external force that plans and provides the guidelines for our lives and the things that happens to us. It reciprocates positively or negatively according to a man's thoughts and actions.?. I do not understand how this has been translated as ?place of return? I would be very grateful if you please clarify this for us all. I do not say that this is the correct translation, but possibly from other verses we could work out the correct definition, God wiling. I strongly urge other brothers and sisters to join in and contribute what they can; it would be helpful for both sides of the debate. If it is found that lexicons etc. support both definitions, then we shall move onto OBJECTIVE B with the conclusion that the definition of ? ? can supports either side, and so the end result of OBJECTIVE A is inconclusive, God Wiling, we shall see support for either view in other parts of the verse. Before we go on to consider the definitions of ?Bayt? and ?Salaat?, we shall build the foundation of the verse to put these words in. If there are any flaws in my approach please send a PM and I will try to make adjustments.

You do not clean GOD's system. The system is clean. It is the people who need cleaning. Ibrahim cleaned the BAIT and not the people

In this bit over the verse God is actually referring to THE system as a pose to MY system which he said earlier in the verse. From the context of the verse it is clear that the system is not ?God?s system as such, rather THE system (which can be understood here to mean the general system of affairs and practice which is present at the time of Abraham and Ismael). As a result, THE system can be cleansed, because, as does anti-virus equipment, the false files are removed leaving the correct files. But we shall discuss this later, for now we need to focus on OBJECTIVE A.

Take Care.

sabo

Peace Natu,

I hope you won't be pissed off if I just push my nose asking a question, that might look first as irrelevant to the structure of your thread, however I see it can move us a bit to a definition of the word "bayt"

Do you think the word "praising" (arabic tasbih) is something to be said or is it also a metaphoric word? see for example 20130

Best regards,
sabo

hlatif

Salaam Natu,

I hope that you are doing well. I agree with the objectives that you have set for the debate and to working first on each of the concepts.

MATHABA you asked me of where I got the Place of return. I am therefore attaching PRL's definition of it

= Th!aa-Waw-Ba = to return, turn back to, to restore/recover, to repent, to collect/gather.
to call/summon (repeatedly), rise (dust), to flow, become abundant.
something returned (recompence, reward, compensation), to repay.
a thing which veils/covers/protects, a distinct body or company of people.
mathabatan - place of return, place to which a visit entitles one to thawab/reward, assembly/congregation for people who were dispersed/separated previously, place of alighting, abode, house, tent.
raiments, garments, morals, behaviour, heart, dependents, followers, robes, clothes, pure/good hearted, of good character.

mathabah n.f. - 2125,
mathubah n.f. - 2103, 560,
thawab n.m. - 3145, 3148, 3195, 4134, 1831, 1844, 1846, 1976, 2880,
thiyab n.m. (pl. of thawb) - 115, 1831, 2219, 2458, 2460, 717, 744, 7621,
thawwaba vb. (II) - 8336,
athaba vb. (IV) - 3153, 585, 4818.

So, this is where I got it. I am unable to support Aidid's translation of Mathaba as providence in this light. Can you elaborate on how you connect this meaning with Aidid's?

Now please allow me to respond to another point

In this bit over the verse God is actually referring to THE system as a pose to MY system which he said earlier in the verse.

Actually the opposite is true. The AYA start with ALBAIT= THE House or SYSTEM(as you like to interpret it) and the cleansing part is for BAITI= MY House or SYSTEM (as you prefer to translate)

So the cleaning is not for the SYSTEM, the cleaning is For GOD's system, according to the Ayah and according to AIDID's understanding.

Take care Natu. I thank you for this very helpful and open minded discussion, and have a great day

Hussein

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Here is my position on 2125 to share with you all.

(2125) And when We made the House (as) a strength to the people, and (a) safety/security, and they take from Abraham's position (spiritual level), one who processed , and We recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "That cleanse My House for the circlers/walkers around , and the devoting/dedicating , and the bowing prostrators(those who humbly hear and obey).

I find it difficult to explain salaat without mentioning the meaning of the other words.

Salaat is the PROCESS of enlightenment, where we sit still (unless in danger then walking or riding/moving) and go within (meditate) in order to read the universe(al kitaab). We go within (meditate) so we can "talk to the God" and get the answers to our problems.

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

The God's house is WITHIN, and we must cleanse the house, that is, we must purify the wrong thoughts and beliefs and practices within our psyche so that those who "walk around" these ideas, or those who humbly hear and obey will not be constantly thrown in the wrong direction by so many different views that carry no proof with them.

SO this thread was built on an excellent premise and I intend to help bring a unified understanding.

unknownuser

Salaams idolfree,

you said

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

The God's house is WITHIN, and we must cleanse the house, that is, we must purify the wrong thoughts and beliefs and practices within our psyche so that those who "walk around" these ideas, or those who humbly hear and obey will not be constantly thrown in the wrong direction by so many different views that carry no proof with them.

Certainly makes sense.

Salaams.

born_again

Salaam

The "house" is only a metaphor to imply the security and protection of the God's system(deen) as a house in this world protects us from the elements of nature. This reading confirms that which came before it and the ancient Kemetans(egypt) used the symbolism of wrapping the mummy to do the same thing, it implied that one was protected from outside conditionings and relied on the God within.

I agree with idolfree's superb explanation. I believe that "Bait" is metaphorical and it protects us from hell-fire, if we enter it we are safe.

My position on the verse is the same as Aidid's.

?And when We made the system as providence for mankind and harmony ? and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed. And We gave instructions to Abraham and Ishmael that ? they should cleanse My system for groups of people ? and those who are devoted ? and those who humbly submit?

Peace...

Nural_Amin

Peace,

The verse where it says take from the footprints or where Abraham was is not a correct translation because the word translated as footprints can also be translated as status and it is used also with GOD and we can't look for God's footprints, status or rank seems like a more logical meaning after cross-refrencing.

I picked this up from Aidid Safar's book, maybe someone can elaborate or correct me. After reading a few chapters, it makes a lot more sense to me, it's clearer and corruption is clearly pointed out. I think someone should quote from his book because there are good examples of where cross refrencing clarifies the meaning of words and also shows how Great this Book is.

Who is this Aidid Safar? Is he a member of this site? He should contribute, his work is revolutionary and also makes a lot of sense!

Nural

hlatif

Salaam Nural,

MAQAM can mean the Standing. This is a derivation of the meaning where Ibrahim stood. However, this is what Aidid had written on this section

and you shall take from the position of Abraham who was committed.

here are the problems
1- He used Shall take for the word ITTAKHITHOO, when this word is An order form of the verb. Shall take can be understood as an order, but it also can be understood as a future tense. I prefer TAKE.
2- He translated MUSALLA as WAS committed. I have never seen it mean that.
3- The MUSALLA was not Ibrahim as Aidid had written, it was the MAQAM
4- What do you take from the standing of Ibrahim.

Take care and have a good evening

Hussein

born_again

Salaam hlatif

What do you think about brother Wakas's translation of the verse

And We have made The House/Establishment1 a place of return/reward2 for/to people3 and a safety/security4. And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7. And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1 for those who go about/amongst8, those who are devoted9, and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

1 - bayt, root Ba-Ya-Ta
2 - mathabatan, root Th!aa-Waw-Ba
3 - nnasi = people/mankind = general, i.e. not a specific group of people.
4 - amnan, root Alif-Miim-Nuun, also see 483, 52, 681, 682, 2455.
5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).
6, 7 - They took from Abraham his stance/position (maqam, root Qaf-Waw-Miim, see 1779, 1973, 2658, 3313, 37164, 4426), his commitment (musallan, root Sad-Lam-Waw), which makes sense, as he was a role-model/leader (imam), see previous sign/verse.
8 - liltta-ifeena, root Tay-Waw-Fa
9 - AAakifeena, root Ayn-Kaf-Fa
10 - rrukkaAAi, root Ra-Kaf-Ayn
11 - ssujoodi, root Siin-Jiim-Dal

Peace...

hlatif

Salaam Born again,

Thank you for bringing to my attention Wakas' understanding of the AYAH. It is much more palatable than that of Aidid. However, I still have some issues with it.

And they took5 from the stance/position6 of Abraham his commitment/following closely/attachment7

I have some issues with this
1- WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments. I disagree. MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM). In this, the word MAQAM plays a totally passive role.
2- I need to clarify the word MAQAM again. The concrete meaning is Place of Standing. The abstract meaning will have to abide by the concrete meaning. So, the abstract meaning will be position/stance/rank as in how he is viewed (again being passive) rather than his Stance on something. You can look them up in the Qur'an
397, 3313, 37164, 4451, 5546, 7940, 1779, 1973, 2739, 5107, 1071, 1414.
3- He starts with they took whereas he said this

5 - wa ittakhithoo = (participle. 3rd person. masculine. plural. imperative. VIII) = it can be translated as 'and they took' (as it seems to be in the past tense) OR 'and take' (plural).

I do prefer Take since it is the imperative form of the verb.

So, if I am to accept Committments for salat, and rank for MAQAM, then I will translate this AYA this way
And Take from/of the rank of Ibrahim to perform commitment on

And this will be my more concrete and literal translation
And take of/from the place of standing of Ibrahim to perform Salat on.

I find my inderstanding clearer.

And We entrusted/recommended to Abraham and Ishmael "You shall purify/cleanse My House/Establishment1

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

and for those who incline/humble10 and acknowledge11.

Here, the two words are states in which a person is in. Therefore it would be more correct to say
Those who are inclining, acknowledging. (another vague meaning)
Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

I will end up with my personal view on the translation of Aidid's and less so on Wakas'. I feel that the words are vague words that make it nearly impossible to reach a clear conclusion. This troubles me.

Salaam all and have a good weekend

Hussein

born_again

Salaam All

6841 Or have they some "Partners"? Then let them produce their "partners", if they are truthful!

6842 The Day that the shin shall be laid bare, and they shall be summoned to perform sujood, but they shall not be able,-

6843 Their eyes will be cast down,- ignominy will cover them; seeing that they had been summoned aforetime to bow in adoration, while they were whole, (and had refused).

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I hope I made myself clear.

Peace...

Wakas

peace be upon you Hussein, all,

Thank you for critiquing my translation. Since I am a novice with Arabic, I appreciate comments, particularly relating to grammar.

WAKAS interpreted Musalla as HIS committments.

no i didn't, i took it as the singular (commitment, or more accurately any word which means "to go/turn towards").

MUSALLA suggests that the Act of SALAT was/is/will be perfromed on the word before it (MAQAM).

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Again GOD's establishment ( another vague word, but whatever it meant)is clean and has always been clean. It does not need cleansing. It is not the GOD's establishment that needs cleaning, it is the people and the people's establishments.

the sign clearly states cleanse My BYT, thus if it was already clean and has always been clean whats the point in saying to someone to cleanse it? there is no point. thus, its a fact it can be cleansed. My understanding works for both physicl and non-physical. both are intrinsic components of a system. we, ourselves, are asked to cleanse our body as well as our soul.

the reason it doesn't use zkw is because this word implies to develop, mke better, evolve etc. Tay-ha(o)-Ra does not have a develop/better connottion. This was masterfully explained in the following rticle

http//www.quranicteachings.co.uk/tazkiya.htm

From PRL

Tay-ha-Ra = to be or become clean/pure or free of dirt, made it or caused it to be distant/remote, cleanse/wash/purify, refrain, remove oneself, to clear/clean, ablution.

= Zay-Kaf-Waw = it increased/augmented, it throve/grew well/flourished/prospered and produced fruit, it was/became pure, purification, goodness/righteousness, lead/enjoy a plentiful/easy/soft/delicate life, put into a good/right state/condition, alms, poor-rate/due

Im sorry you feel my word-choices are vague, i can assure you however i take great care in choosing my words. please see dictionary.com for further expalntion

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

Whereas my concrete literal meaning
Those who are bowing, prostrating.

my translations of "incline/humble" & "acknowledge" are core literal meanings, thus will inevitably allow some flexibility. This is my style. I feel its best & most just, the wasat, if you will.

Wakas

Natu

Peace.

I think we?ll scrap objectives A, B, C, for now, because we?ve got a truly beautiful discussion going, we?ll use these divisions of the verse in a concluding post for this verse 2125. All I would like to say is that we carry on discussing verse 2125 other verses of relevance to this one, and not move onto the others in the list until we have come to an agreed conclusion on this verse. I thank all reading/participating brothers and sisters of your kindness in appreciating this thread.

Outside my computer, I?m unfortunately, well, in a bit of a ?situation? at the moment, so its not likely that I?ll be able to get online as frequently as I have done previously, but I will, God willing whenever he gives me the opportunity. For now I would like to contribute the following

To SABO

I hope you won't be pissed off if I just push my nose asking a question

Chill bruv, I?m not gonna get peed off. Anyway, it shouldn?t make a difference because its not as though I own this thread or anything, I just happen to be the one that put up the first post on it lol. From the way I write these posts I might seem like some kind of white haired ?robotic? personality, but I?m only 18! I like talking to people, we can have a laugh? Anyway, I?m not in a position to criticise anyone, after my despicable behaviour in the thread ?Shouldn?t we be like God?. I had a long debate with mz357 in that thread, and I couldn?t get on, but when I came back and read the whole thread again, I realised that I?d been acting very unjustly trying to force my point through, and that was what made me change my approach. (I take this opportunity to apologise to mz357). By the way, I?d like to stress again, that everyone removes misconceptions that this is ?my? thread in any way. I have just as much authority as anybody else.

Do you think the word "praising" (arabic tasbih) is something to be said or is it also a metaphoric word? see for example 20130

Sabo, my friend, you really have highlighted a diamond for this discussion. Thanks so much! You ask whether it is something to be said or something metaphorical. Technically, we can actually glorify God without saying things, e.g. by making a statement in text, or glorifying God whilst thinking, so we don?t need to consider whether it is metaphorical or not. When we read 11114, God tells us to uphold the salaat/commitments, and times in the day are mentioned. The way I see it, God is just highlighting times to make us realise that we are to meet his set standards round the clock, whenever we are awake. And then, as you have highlighted 20130 (to my great appreciation, I assure you), I have realised that this verse may give strength to the possibility that 11114 wasn?t talking about the timings of ritual prayer, because 20130 talks about glorifying in a similar way. Now it could be said that both salaat and tasbih cannot be the same thing, so this may give proof against daily ritual worship, however, it may also be said that 20130 gives more definition to what ritual prayer involves, i.e. one of the aims of the ritual is to glorify God. I look forward to your views, if what you wish to contribute is to do with 2125 (the verse being discussed currently), then by all means come on and discuss right now, but if its for a verse other than this that I have highlighted in post 1 then please post it up once we have moved onto that verse after reaching conclusions on the verses prior to that, and if it not highlighted there, then I would be grateful if you send it to me in a PM, (as can any other brothers/sisters who wish to discuss a specific verse in this thread that I have not mentioned in post 1), and I?ll add it to the list of verses in Post 1 as soon as I can.

I see it can move us a bit to a definition of the word "bayt"

Man I?d LOVE to hear you ? please roll onto the thread and say what you wish, I want to hear your understanding whether you reject ritual prayer or not. Thanks in advance.

TO HUSSEIN

I am unable to support Aidid's translation of Mathaba as providence in this light. Can you elaborate on how you connect this meaning with Aidid's?

I was under the impression that this was possible, but being a non-arab without access to a lexicon, I?m afraid I cannot explain this, and thus I cannot say that Aidid is right, although I am not rejecting the possibility that he is, perhaps other brothers and sisters could help out here.

Actually the opposite is true. The AYA start with ALBAIT= THE House or SYSTEM(as you like to interpret it) and the cleansing part is for BAITI= MY House or SYSTEM (as you prefer to translate)

D?oh! I knew I was doing something wrong, and I kept checking over my post before I put it up, but I missed the thing that was staring at me in the face! Apologies. Thanks for highlighting this. Your point Hussein is that we needn?t cleanse God?s system, but one could say that the system (software, as I?d prefer to refer to it) ?belongs to God?, in just the way the hardware/?everything else physical? does, so if we could cleanse the hardware physically, it could be said that we could cleanse the software non-physically. I might have just increased the confusion? I?ll go get some coffee?

Thanks very much for your help Hussein.

To IDOLFREE

I really like your understanding, of ?THE HOUSE?, its seems to work well, but there just one slight problem and that?s is in getting my head around the concept of ?the house? being within, but it?ll probably work after thinking it through for a bit? in a few more seconds? yip? that?s it! I think it completely works, but I?ll stay open to other understandings as well if they convince me. Thank you very much for your valuable input idol free, it was much appreciated.

I intend to help bring a unified understanding.

Get in Idolfree! I loved reading that, may God give us all success.

To BORN AGAIN

The ayats are for mushriken. If we take sujood literally then those who believe but do not pray they should be called too? Imo it talks about their humiliation, their embarrassment like a student who didn't do his homework and after being scolded by the teacher he looks down in shame. When the teacher asks "Why didn't you do it?" he just keeps looking down without uttering anything.

The verb "acknowledge" fits more properly compared to "obey" in the ayats.

I for one approve of your understanding born again, the context of the verse does work out to give your understanding. Thank you very much for helping.

Thanks to everybody talking and listening on this thread, may the God reward us all.

hlatif

Salaam Wakas, Natu, all,

Thanks for your notes

before i comment, could you give severl examples of this in al quran, used with other words, just so i can see how this works more closely.

Munazzal
6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
The words were
ANNAHU MUNAZZALUN which mean That He (the book) was sent
So munazzal means that the act of sending was done on the book
Another word MUHAMMADOf course that is the name of the prophet. When I say
HUWA MUHAMMAD, it means that he was praised
MUHAMMAD then means that the act of praise was performed on him

establishment

The act of establishing.
The condition or fact of being established.
Something established, as
An arranged order or system, especially a legal code.
A permanent civil, political, or military organization.
An established church.
A place of residence or business with its possessions and staff.
A public or private institution, such as a hospital or school.
often Establishment An established social order, as
A group of people holding most of the power and influence in a government or society. Often used with the.
A controlling group in a given field of activity.

So what is GOD's establishment that was mentioned in the AYA in your view? And how do you clean it?
You can clean GOD's establishment if it is a house, but I am not clear that you can clean GOD's system.

acknowledge

To admit the existence, reality, or truth of.
To recognize as being valid or having force or power.
To express recognition of acknowledge a friend's smile.
To express thanks or gratitude for.
To report the receipt of acknowledge a letter.
Law. To accept or certify as legally binding acknowledge a deed.

I do apologise that I am not able to attach the meaning of the root S-J-D from PRL. However, if I remember correctly, the dictinary presented all the meanings and then somebody attached his/her own understanding that it is Acknowledgement. Therefore this meaning is a product of personal understanding that is not based on words in dictionaries. If so then this meaning is open for big debate. Please correct me and forgive me if I were mistaken.

Salaam all and have a good evenin

Hussein