THE THREAD - THE VERSES - THE UNDERSTADINGS - THE CONCLUSION
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Salaam brother Ayman,
Ayman said
This doesn't make any sense. According to your theory, people (plural) cannot leave buildings (plural) and one town (singular) but many people can only leave many buildings and many towns.
actually, the issue of plural Maqam comes from my criticism of the article related to MAQAM IBRAHIM in the natural republic
http//www.free-minds.org/TNR.zip .
The article builds it's case on AYA 397 and on one sign only . Yet the AYA itself talks about signs, something that the article ignored.397 In it are Signs Manifest, the Station of Abraham
So, the problem is not mine to explain. It is the problem for whoever wrote that article. He/She cannot make his case on only one sign, when it is plural. Where those signs are, are also the problem of the writer since they made it their case.
In any case, the MAQAM will have to contain many signs, or the MAQAM will have to be many MAQAMS and that is for you guys to decide on how you can imnprove the major deficiecny of that article.
Thanks for pointing it out and I look forward to your helpful comments.
Hussein
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peace be upon you Hussein, all,
You are extrapolating upon my maqam/stance/position. The fact is God's system (laid down for us) can be corrupted. This is exemplified loads and loads of times in al quran. I cant say more than that.
Please share those with me. Please remember that you need to show unambiguous examples, very much as you asked me related to MAQAM.
if the god's system could never be corrupted, then there would be no need for more thn one messenger.
exmples
the children of israel.
275, 3180, 512, 174, 2085-94, 2776, 3225, 4363. also, the reference in which they mde lawful things unlwful nd vice-vers, i cnnot recll it t the moment.din can be changed/divided/altered/corrupted/differentiated/individulised etc - 323-24, 446, 4171, 577, 6159, 3032, 4026, 4213-14, 1096.
2517-18, 2371, 2209, 1688, 42.
Please reconcile what seems as a contradiction between the AYAT.
There is no contradiction whtsoever between the signs. 1636 states every people were sent a messenger. The people whom Muhmmd delivered to had no prior messenger, as stated by 2846 and 323, thus The God sent them Muhammd, a messenger, thus fulfilling 1636. simple.
according to you, Abrahm built a house, stayed in it (no evidence from al qurn or trditional ccounts as far as im aware, in fact contrdicting 1437) and somehow simultaneously dedicated it to The God, prayed in the direction of it, people from all over went into it, others and he circuited his own house etc and it lasted ~5000 years (even though trditionl accounts proves it hs been destroyed nd rebuilt several times), everyone in his community died thus a new community formed who had no prior messenger, Moses/Jesus etc made HJJ to so such a house but al quran neglected to mention it, no independent source mentions Abraham being in Mecca, even though he is one of the most revered charcters of the region, "Mecca" is never heard of prior to Islam, "Kabba" is never herd of prior to Islam..... what more do you want?
397 In it are Signs Manifest, the Station of Abraham
So, the problem is not mine to explain. It is the problem for whoever wrote that article. He/She cannot make his case on only one sign, when it is plural. Where those signs are, are also the problem of the writer since they made it their case.
In any case, the MAQAM will have to contain many signs, or the MAQAM will have to be many MAQAMS and that is for you guys to decide on how you can imnprove the major deficiecny of that article.
please clarify, as i dont understand your point.
"In it (the BYT)..." do you disagree as to what the it is referring to? is tht ur point?Lastly, i just noticed this...
The God mentions the first 'house' was in Bacca , the only thing I know of with a similar name is Bacca valley. An amazing coincidence, considering, the god states Abrhm resided in a valley/biwadin in .
What more do you want?
Wakas
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Salaam Wakas,
Thanks for your responses. You said
if the god's system could never be corrupted, then there would be no need for more thn one messenger.
exmples
the children of israel.
275, 3180, 512, 174, 2085-94, 2776, 3225, 4363. also, the reference in which they mde lawful things unlwful nd vice-vers, i cnnot recll it t the moment.din can be changed/divided/altered/corrupted/differentiated/individulised etc - 323-24, 446, 4171, 577, 6159, 3032, 4026, 4213-14, 1096.
2517-18, 2371, 2209, 1688, 42.
thanks for the response, but that is not what I asked for. I will repost what I asked for and highlight the most important part that your answer did not address
Please share those with us. Please remember that you need to show unambiguous examples of GOD's system being corrupted and still considered by GOD as his system
All the examples that you presented are examples of corruption and I went through them all. However, non of them says that the system remains GOD's system. In fact, the ones that deal with DEEN are full of Your Deen, his DEEN and their Deen.
please clarify, as i dont understand your point.
"In it (the BYT)..." do you disagree as to what the it is referring to? is tht ur point?The AYA says In him (the house) are clear signs Maqam Ibrahim
The way I understand it is that there are MANY SIGNS in the house and that those signs are also either MAQAM IBRAHIM or in MAQAM IBRAHIM. So I expected of the article to present many signs and they presented only one. This decreased the article's credibility to me. Where are the other signs? and how do they relate to the MAQAM? If they are in Jerusalem?
Brother Ayman wrote this
The great reading never says that Bacca/"bacca?" is in a valley. Therefore you are making conclusions based on nothing more than the false Psalms. At any rate, I don't think it is important to know where Bacca is (that is if it is a place).
And brother Wakas this
Abrahm built a house, stayed in it (no evidence from al qurn or trditional ccounts as far as im aware, in fact contrdicting 1437) and somehow simultaneously dedicated it to The God, prayed in the direction of it, people from all over went into it, others and he circuited his own house etc and it lasted ~5000 years (even though trditionl accounts proves it hs been destroyed nd rebuilt several times), everyone in his community died thus a new community formed who had no prior messenger, Moses/Jesus etc made HJJ to so such a house but al quran neglected to mention it, no independent source mentions Abraham being in Mecca, even though he is one of the most revered charcters of the region, "Mecca" is never heard of prior to Islam, "Kabba" is never herd of prior to Islam..... what more do you want?
And the response actually comes from Brother Wakas here
The God mentions the first 'house' was in Bacca , the only thing I know of with a similar name is Bacca valley. An amazing coincidence, considering, the god states Abrhm resided in a valley/biwadin in
I do apprecaite it brother Wakas for the response. i am actually going to post all of 1437 to clarify my point
1437 "O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular Prayer so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits so that they may give thanks.Well another example that proves that Jerusalem was not the place
1- Jerusalem is not in a valley
2- The valleys around Jerusalem had cultivation in them for thousands of years.Take care y'all and have a great day
Hussein
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peace Hussein,
However, non of them says that the system remains GOD's system.
http//dictionary.reference.com/search?q=corrupt
corrupt
Marked by immorality and perversion; depraved.
Venal; dishonest a corrupt mayor.
Containing errors or alterations, as a text a corrupt translation.
Archaic. Tainted; putrid.Brother Ayman and I never stated we believe the first house / maqam Abraham is in Jerusalem. (as far as I'm aware)
Wakas
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Peace all,
Sujud is not a physical manifestation. Here is a brief analysis
I have found sa-la-ma used in the Qur'aan for mankind who has the gift of free will to surrender. I note in 383 & 1315 the addition of the words willingly and unwilling since all creation there as been included. I also note the malaika sujud and other inanimate things sujud. They have no free will to surrender.
Sa-ja-da=submit, submission = (English) The state of being submissive; acknowledgement of inferiority or dependence; humble or SUPPLIANT BEHAVIOR; meekness; resignation. The act of submitting; the act of yielding to power or authority; OBEDIENCE; COMPLIANCE.
Sa-la-ma = surrender= (English) To give up possession of; to yield; to resign; as, TO SURRENDER A RIGHT, PRIVILEGE, OR ADVANTAGE. give up or agree to FOREGO to the power or possession of another, surrender to something, to allow yourself to be controlled or influenced by something, to say officially that you want to stop fighting because you realize that YOU CANNOT WIN.
The obvious outcome of surrender is peace and security. In my humble understanding the two words are clearly not synonyms. Allah?s forces have been made submissive to mankind. For mankind, the inheritors of the Earth, we surrender our free will for the Lord of the Worlds and our submissions belong to Allah alone (7218 ).
As Aidid Safar points out there is no ?wa? in 2125 rather ?is? as the connecting term and I agree. There is no bowing down and prostrating. It is better rendered as humbly submit or incline/bend towards submission. I don?t find any useless rituals or unexplained symbolism in the reading. I keep reminding myself that a universal timeless message from the Creator who knows all the subtle differences within us would necessarily be all inclusive and non restrictive of diversification. The guidance in the message removes man-made shackles. If one reflects on what would unite I find unity as ?none? rather than all joining ?one?. No religion. Any ritual would become a marker.
The guidance teaches us how to run a society, unite as brothers and sisters and cause ourselves to grow, not how to define or organize a religion. We are to be convinced ?with ? His signs not ?in? His signs. We act ?with? His signs. It?s great to choose a point or verse of contention but perhaps we have jumped ahead. For example Bismillah translated by some as ?In the name of Allah? or ?With the name of God?. My research on the usage of this repeated phrase in ayyats where the phrase
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(La) Yadhzkurunasmallahi alayhaIs saying ?(they do not) remember the descriptions or designations of God over/upon it?. It seems that the surahs are beginning with ?With The Descriptions/Designations of God? and in the surahs we are being told to ?remember God?s descriptions? whenever we ?use? any of the provisions He has given us. If we make a list of His descriptions over the risq we can come up with i.e., do not waste them, share them, do not kill game when they are forbidden, do not acquire them illegally, be fair and equitable when measuring them, do not eat filth, etc. I don?t think we have even yet translated bismillah correctly. God does not have names. This of course is only my understanding. Any input will be sincerely appreciated.
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Peace.
Brother Hussein, this thread has become dormant for a while - would you say now that 2125 doesn't necessarily point to physical ritual prayer? if not, then there's no problem, please highlight in a post following this if you see any ways (if any) in which this verse may not lead to a physical ritual worship, so that the discussion may progress. If not then we shall I shall post a conclusion for 2125 and we shall move on to the next verse, God willing.
By the way, I'd like to thank all brothers and sisters for working so hard in this thread, may God give us all success.
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Salaam
I doubt he will come back ( He was the only one who believed in ritual prayer and contributed to the discussion. If he doesn't come back then there's going to be hardly any activity here (
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Peace born again.
I hope he's is doing well, aside from that, he is not the only brother who accepts physical ritual worship, I believe that key players like Layth and Edip should also be contributing here, if nobody comes on to represent those who support physical ritual worship, I myself will take on that role and try as hard as possible to support physical ritual worship (that should be fun...). Lets put it this way, if nobody contributes anything on 2125 to the effect of physical ritual prayer, then we can rest assured that as far as 2125 goes, it does not support physical ritual prayer. We shall wait till midnight tonight since this thread has been dormant for quite a while. If anyone has any objection to the conclsuion that 2125 doesn't support physical ritual prayer, then they may contribute at the end once we have been through all the verses highlighted in the first post in this thread. God willing immediately after midnight tonight I shall put up a progress report, conclusion on 2125 and a post signalling that the discussion has moved onto the next verse in the list.
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PERIODIC PROGRESS REPORT
Can Gods establishment be cleansed?
It is now accepted that this is possible, (Nowhere in the reading does it say that it is perfect).
Can Mathaba be translated as providence?
Can be translated as reward or place of return no real bearing on whether physical ritual worship exists or not.
Does Maqam mean physical location, or viewpoint/stance on something?
It appears that the concept of maqam-e-ibrahim doesnt support a position for physical ritual prayer.
Current general understandings
2125 does not support physical ritual worship. -
2125 (End of Discussion)
The shared conclusion is that 2125 does not support physical ritual worship. It is requested that all brothers and sisters who strongly support physical ritual worship and have sufficient knowledge of the issue to engage in debate, please participate in this discussion, it would bring unity to our community and help us promote one strong message. The discussion on 2125 has now ended, with the conclusion that it does not support physical ritual worship. Any brothers and sisters who may suggest otherwise may wish to type up posts and save them to be discussed once all the verses have been discussed. For now, we shall proceed to 2238
2238 (Start of Discussion)
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2238
||Preserve the contact methods, and the middle contact method, and stand devoutly for God||Aidid Safar translates this as follows
Guard over all the commitments and commit yourself moderately and be upright for God - in obedience
Criticisms of this understanding, which removes ritual prayer, may be posted now.
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Lemme start the debate ) If salat-i wusta was a prayer then it would?ve been mentioned in ayat 2458. Fajr and Isra salats are there but no wusta. This means that it?s something else. Me and brother Wakas?s agreed understanding of the verse is
Preserve / guard your orations / bonds and the best (balanced) oration / bond (the QURAN) stand for the God in obedience.
Peace...
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Peace all,
Just glossing over the discussion here I want to point out that the way the question is framed is just as important as trying to search for the answers.
Natu has unfortunately framed the question in a loaded fashion. By calling it a 'ritual prayer' one is already condemning it as being meaningless. Rituals are patterned behaviours. Whether the behaviour is beneficial or not is debatable depending on the 'ritual'. A pilot has a ritual of going through the flight plan - a useful ritual for example.
I would say the following definition of ritual in this context of 'salat' is being used
A detailed method of procedure faithfully or regularly followed.
And there is no detailed method in the reading of a procedure to be followed - so the term "ritual" is a red herring, and loads the question unfavorably.
Even the term 'prayer' is a misnomer.
The questions are
Is there a 'salat'? - Yes.
Is there a time indicated for them? - Yes.
Salat is to me an overall commitment to be righteous. But in terms of the timed salat I am of the opinion that it is patently not a patterned procedure as it is not described; and it is not even necessarily a regular thing - as in the times are set out but you may not have a want for it at that time.
For example the cafeteria at work is open between 5-6 pm for dinner, but I may choose not to eat that day. And when I do eat I don't necessarily order the same meal. That's about the best analogy I can find for my own experience.
Regards.
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Here are some interesting views about
There is no middle prayer
From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.
WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle
RIJAAL = men, great men, important men, leading personalities, men of distinction
RUKBAAN = retinue, escort
Meanings from A DICTIONARY OF MODERN WRITTEN ARABIC by "HANS WEHR"
Retinue = group of people attending to an important person (oxford dictionary)
Guard your COMMITMENTS and the COMMITMENTS of the MEDIATORS and stand devoutly for Allah and if you FEAR (that you cannot GUARD your COMMITMENTS as a MEDIATOR) then (take the help of) leading personalities or men attending such persons, and when you are in security/sure then remember Allah in the way He hath taught you which ye ever knew not.
The SALAAT AL WUSTA is the COMMITMENTS OF THE MEDIATOR and not the middle prayer.
Nadia Malik, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=28796
Salath wasta is central commitment(2/23.In verses mentioned before 2/238 the God is giving guidance and replying some important questions related with the life of individual as well as society.Like wise,how much we have to spend for the welfare of the society,how we have to take care of poor and orphans,struggle in implementing the system,relation between wife and husband in family life,to whom a muslim man/woman should marry and process of divorce etc.These all are very important commitments to make balance personality and society.
Quranic message is for eternity,during any period these all commitments are equally important but some of them play vital role and their solution require top priority attention and if these commitments will not be given due importance basis then society will tilt towards imbalance.For example in our time illiteracy and feudalism are the two very important issues which are responsible for mental and physical slavery.These ground realities should be given prime importance otherwise society will remain imbalance.Considering all this the understanding of verse 2/238 in which salth wasta is mentioned will be
"Guards all your commitments with particular attention to central core commitment and be ready all the time to do your job in the light of God's guidance".
sohail Qureshi, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29019
While describing some important marital Laws, it is reiterated that, your Central Duty remains the guarding of the System in which individuals and families can develop their potentials to the maximum. Stay alert in the obedience to Allah.
Dr. Shabbir, http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29020
Peace to all
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Peace.
It is now clear that 2238 doesnt necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.
However I still have problems with the following
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The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I cant remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
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What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse stand for the God in obedience? Does this n support physical salat?
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From the quotes kindly provided by /JM/
From verse 228 to 241 the subject is divorce and in divorce the role of mediator or broker becomes imperative.
WUSTA = mediator, intermediary, intermediate agent, middleman, go-between broker, intermediary, intermediate, middle
What conclusions do we reach on this? Because to my understanding, 228-241 isnt continuously about divorce, because verse 240 isnt anything to do with divorce. Plus, even if 2238 and 2239 are considered as part of the divorce rules, then it is a good follow on from the end of 2237 And if you forgive, it is closer to righteousness. And do not forget the favour between you; GOD IS SEER OVER WHAT YOU DO Following this God tells us what to do (salat)
Aside from this, all is well and it looks like were on for a conclusion on 2238 now (in support of non-physical salat). By the way, is there any way I can get my hands on you translation Wakas, so that instead of using ASs translation we can use yours in the introductory post to each verse?
If anybody who supports physical salat wishes to make contributions then they are strongly encourage to do so. This thread is back people )
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Peace.
It is now clear that 2238 doesn?t necessarily support physical salat, and more accurate translation supports non-physical salat.
However I still have problems with the following
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The concept of orations - I remember reading about this in a thread a while back, but I can?t remember which exactly this is, perhaps born again may provide a link to that here so that readers may understand how this conclusion was reached ? also it would be much appreciated if anyone who does not accept orations as the definition to be used here, to make appropriate commentary.
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What is the understanding of the end bit of the verse ?stand for the God in obedience?? ? Does this n support physical salat?
Salaam
2238 was discussed here http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3206
I don't think standing supports physical salaat because oration was being listened standing, the ayats below prove this
073.02-04 STAND by night, but not all night,- Half of it,- or a little less, Or a little more; and recite the Qur'an in slow, measured rhythmic tones.
025.064 Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate (the mind) and STANDING;
039.009 Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or STANDING (in adoration), who takes heed of the Hereafter, and who places his hope in the Mercy of his Lord - (like one who does not)? Say "Are those equal, those who know and those who do not know? It is those who are endued with understanding that receive admonition.
But it could be done on foot or riding in case of a fear (of what I don't know).
002.239 If ye fear, (establish the oration) on foot, or riding, (as may be most convenient), but when ye are in security, celebrate Allah's praises in the manner He has taught you, which ye knew not (before).
Peace...
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peace Natu,
I'm not sure what trans. you are referring to. I dont really have one. If you mean for 2238, then here it is, from the thread born_again referenced.
Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.
The context prior to 2238 discusses formal/public orations/vows/bonds. The core meaning of these orations/vows, as implied by the root, are to go/turn towards in a close/positive manner. This view is given further weight by the use of "QaNiTeena/obedience" at the end of the ayat/sign. And the reference of "the most balanced oration/bond" (i.e. al/the quran/reading) provides a perfect link for 2239.
Wakas
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Preserve/guard on the orations/bonds, and the most balanced oration/bond, and stand/persist to/for The God in obedience.
If the highlighted bit of the translation is possible, then we can safely say that this verse doesn't neccessarily support physical salat. is this agreed upon?
