THEFT PUNISHMENT

savage_carrot

Peace saladin,

when did i say the women cut BOTH their hands ?

You added 1231 as evidence for why it's cutting OFF of both hands which you later edited, thats why I said what i did and explained as well in my previous posts.

If you think it's ONE hand...the question of cut vs cut OFF still stands...

So do you think the women cut OFF one hand each when it is completely out of context in the verse?

And can you prove that it is cut OFF and not cut?

edited to correct

Jaxal

SaLaM

Saladin do you still think God meant chopping off hands and not marking them ? shock

el-Aziz

Yo!

the laws are to be applied in a islamic system.

What exactly is an islamic system?
And as you explain it to me and the rest of us reading you answer, try to bring substance that the suggestion in this hand-cutting example is to be applied under such system. Ok?

i meant to say that laws are not to be applied under a system where poverty, hunger etc force people to commit these crimes (even though they might not like to commit these crimes) , because God holds us responsible for our innermost intentions .

What you gave me is not any near answers to my questions.

I can repeat the to make it easier

What is an islamic system (and as you answer - feel free to evolve the concept of the quranic origins of this system)?
Does the quran say that the punishment of cutting ones arm (however that IS to be applied) only is to be applied under such a system?

kind regards,
St?phane

rachmanadi

Peace Saladin

Salaam all.

Interesting discussion.

I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?

salam.

salam rachmanadi.
how do we cut the hands of a thief who doesnt have any hand ? we dont .
the stolen stuff should be returned to the owners if possible .
the state can decide what the punishment for such a thief should be , or if there should be any punishment or not .

Could you provide us with the ayats from the Qur'an in which you based that judgement?
As far as I understand the ayat about cutting thieves' hands does not specify any exceptions to the rule (the next verse is an exception which applies in the case the thief repent, not based on their physical condition). So unless there is an exception specified in other ayat, the rule for dealing with thieves, that is to cut their hands, still stands.
Please also remember that a handless person could have prosthetic limbs to replace their missing hands. With the advance in technology, it is not impossible at all that in the future people could have bionics limbs. Why would we let them off without cutting or marking something when we caught them stealing. But if we cut or mark their artificial limbs, it would still not following the rule in literal sense. Also in that case the deterrent effect would be much less, because they can easily replace their damaged prosthetic limbs with new ones.

Regards,
rachmanadi

Fahad1

What is an islamic system (and as you answer - feel free to evolve the concept of the quranic origins of this system)?

a system where the laws of koran are applied .

Does the quran say that the punishment of cutting ones arm (however that IS to be applied) only is to be applied under such a system?

no . but because God does not punish us for the crimes/sins we which were forced to commit .

peace.

Fahad1

Peace Saladin

Salaam all.

Interesting discussion.

I just wan't to bring to your attention that there is a situation /condition in which both the cutting and the marking of hands would not be possible, namely when the thief has no hands. We are not created equal, most of us have two hands, some have only one, and others don't have any. Because someone have no hands doesn't necessarily prevent him/her from becoming a thief. So if we catch a handless thief (whether the thief was born that way or because of an accident or maybe even from previous cutting hand punishment for the person's previous stealing), what should we cut or marks?

salam.

salam rachmanadi.
how do we cut the hands of a thief who doesnt have any hand ? we dont .
the stolen stuff should be returned to the owners if possible .
the state can decide what the punishment for such a thief should be , or if there should be any punishment or not .

Could you provide us with the ayats from the Qur'an in which you based that judgement?
As far as I understand the ayat about cutting thieves' hands does not specify any exceptions to the rule (the next verse is an exception which applies in the case the thief repent, not based on their physical condition). So unless there is an exception specified in other ayat, the rule for dealing with thieves, that is to cut their hands, still stands.
Please also remember that a handless person could have prosthetic limbs to replace their missing hands. With the advance in technology, it is not impossible at all that in the future people could have bionics limbs. Why would we let them off without cutting or marking something when we caught them stealing. But if we cut or mark their artificial limbs, it would still not following the rule in literal sense. Also in that case the deterrent effect would be much less, because they can easily replace their damaged prosthetic limbs with new ones.

Regards,
rachmanadi

how do we punish a criminal who is already dead ? we dont .

brothers and sisters , instead of coming up with irrelevent questions and silly arguments to distract , please make an attempt to answer the arguements and the verses of the koran that i have shown in my previous posts .

peace.

Fahad1

peace savage_carrot.

And can you prove that it is cut OFF and not cut?

i have shown you what means what and why in my previous posts . if they dont make sense to u , i cant help .

some questions for u .

you said u thin marie?s explaination is good , which says to ?SEPARATE? the ?hands? . ?separate? means ?cut off? , not ?mark? . now what happened ? u changed ur belief back to "mark" .

marie

Then 538 can have new meaning

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall separate their hands from what they gained "illegally".

savage_carrot

I think Marie's explanation of 538 is pretty good though...

2 . why didn?t u tell marie , that she should use the word ?mark? , instead of ?separate?(cut off/divide/remove) ?

if u believe that ?hands? is resources in 538 , would u have used the word ?mark? or ?cut off?.

4 .do u even believe that the ?hands? in 538 are physical hands ? if no , why are u asking whether to mark or cut off ? decide first whether it means ?physical hands? or ?resources? .

Try to make sense of all this u are saying . if u want to reject the clear commands of the Koran , and come up with every new meaning other than the one it means , u will definitely come up with more contradictions and non sense like this .

by the way , no one has addressed any of my arguments yet .

peace .

savage_carrot

Peace saladin,

i have shown you what means what and why in my previous posts . if they dont make sense to u , i cant help .

They don't make sense to just about anyone when scrutinized, unless one is hell bent on sticking to an illogical postion.

you said u thin marie?s explaination is good , which says to ?SEPARATE? the ?hands? . ?separate? means ?cut off? , not ?mark? . now what happened ? u changed ur belief back to "mark" .

As you might not have noticed and are thus asking me this question, i have compared all different explanations by dividing them into two literal and one figurative to try and see which one is best...so that those who are willing to think might open up/discuss different points that may have been overlooked. Apparently it didn't make a difference to you.

2 . why didn?t u tell marie , that she should use the word ?mark? , instead of ?separate?(cut off/divide/remove) ?

I told everyone by putting it in a post by comparing them...Is this a case of sour grapes?

if u believe that ?hands? is resources in 538 , would u have used the word ?mark? or ?cut off?.

If i believe hands are resources/figurative in 538, why would i use the literal mark/cutoff? Think!

4 .do u even believe that the ?hands? in 538 are physical hands ? if no , why are u asking whether to mark or cut off ? decide first whether it means ?physical hands? or ?resources? .

I decide after looking at all the verses and what is said in them, what points people have for and against and how logical they are. That is why we DISCUSS. If we have already made up our minds and new information is useless then what's the point? Even if i DON"T decide on any explanation, how does that change my points about YOUR argument?

Try to make sense of all this u are saying . if u want to reject the clear commands of the Koran , and come up with every new meaning other than the one it means , u will definitely come up with more contradictions and non sense like this .

Prove that it means what YOU say it means...till now the only 'non sense' i have heard is chopping OFF of both hands...

by the way , no one has addressed any of my arguments yet .

What arguments? You keep insisting it's cut OFF of both hands and give verses that can't prove your position...then attempt to pass over any questions that people have regarding your position as distracting and non sense...

Jaxal

SaLaM Saladin

Brother why do you insist to argue the same point when clearly it is not the right one? According to you, millions of people will lose the chance to have an honest earning. To say, it wouldnt happen in an islmaic society is crap. The reason being, look at every "islamic society" and name me ONE which is doing it right.

brirob

Peace, all...

Again i say, how could joseph's plot to get his family back have worked if the punishment was to cut his brother's hand, or mark it, or amputate it? Surely GOD did not include this story...AND THAT SPECIFIC DETAIL...in the quran for NO REASON.

brian

SwedenMajidah

Salaam,

Exactly what is an islamic society!?

For me it doesn't exist one

Maybe if we have create one it might be something but well I don't know.

Peace
Sis Majidah

el-Aziz

What is an islamic system (and as you answer - feel free to evolve the concept of the quranic origins of this system)?

a system where the laws of koran are applied .

First of all the quran itself does not speak of such a system for the reason that it doesn't involve in political issues. That whatever "islamic system" is not only an invention of your own but also one where the quran's nature is not taken in consideration.

Does the quran say that the punishment of cutting ones arm (however that IS to be applied) only is to be applied under such a system?

no . but because God does not punish us for the crimes/sins we which were forced to commit .

That is not an answer to my question. So again
This thievery punishment - does the quran say that it is to be applied in such a system or is it an interpretation of your own?

Fahad1

http//thequran.wordpress.com/2006/09/04/re-theft-punishment-538/

Above is a reply to the article Theft Punishment at http//www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm .

.

jonny_k

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

Khi- Salam. have to clarify this even if it's after a long time now. Those verses you stated dont have any mathematical relation as is the case of the verse 538 and 1231 the sum of both which is 43 and 19 verses after 1231 the word 'cut' is mentioned again in relation with the women cutting their hands. So it is this relation which gives the answer. GOD Bless!

Fahad1

So now we see y GOD mentions the women 'cutting(the same root word as in 53' their hands when they saw Joseph. I read the story of Joseph in the OT Bible but did not find this incidant. This cannot be coincidence n it is clear tht GOD wants 2 pt 2 the correct meaning or rather understanding of the word used 4 'cut' in the Quran. GOD Bless!

salam .
the same word is used in verse 533, 7124 to mean to amputate .

Khi- Salam. have to clarify this even if it's after a long time now. Those verses you stated dont have any mathematical relation as is the case of the verse 538 and 1231 the sum of both which is 43 and 19 verses after 1231 the word 'cut' is mentioned again in relation with the women cutting their hands. So it is this relation which gives the answer. GOD Bless!

salam dear bro khizar .
i dont believe that the koran depends on "mathematical relation"s to be explained . the koran is fully detailed .

take care .

salam.
fahad.

marie

Salam Fahad, all,

In the light of the Reading, jazaan/reward doesn't imply systematically a physical punishment

jazaa can be reward,recompense,requital,punishment

Agree, but according the context reward,recompense fit better

ok . recompense . and the recompense/reward is to amputate the hands.

You cannot be are affirmative, my question is do you make the best reading of this verse (3918 )?
The God knows best

Below is my own reading of 538

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun

In other word one can read it in this way

you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained 'as' a reward 'and' a deterrent from God
faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba jazaan nakalan mina Allahi

You can find the same sentence in 7836

A reward from your Lord, a generous gift.
Jazaan min rabbika AAataan hisaban

but how can u say that it cannot be physical punishment ?

Because the answer to your question is given in 539, the robbers must repent and make reparations after their wrongdoing.

539 means ,if the thieves repent they must be forgiven . so only the repeat offenders' hands will be amputated.

I don't share your understanding because 539 gives an additional information/explanation to 538. 'The repeat offenders..' is only your own interpretation.

Does the God forgive you only once for each error ?
(1725)

Salam

Fahad1

peace sister marie.

You cannot be are affirmative, my question is do you make the best reading of this verse (3918 )?

i believe i do .

Below is my own reading of 538

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.
Waalssariqu waalssariqatu faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma jazaan bimakasaba nakalan mina Allahi waAllahuAAazeezun hakeemun

In other word one can read it in this way

you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained 'as' a reward 'and' a deterrent from God
faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba jazaan nakalan mina Allahi

u rearranged the verse to suit your meaning . that is not how to arrive at the best understanding . the verse is understood best as it is , without any rearrangement .

peace.

marie

Peace brother Fahad, all,

u rearranged the verse to suit your meaning . that is not how to arrive at the best understanding . the verse is understood best as it is , without any rearrangement .

I cannot force you to see my point, all what I tried to do in my last post is to show you that jazaan (a reward) can be linked to "from the God" like nakalan (deterrent). The verse remains the same one

A reward and deterrent from the God for the male thief, and the female thief is "faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma bimakasaba" = "you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands for/from what they gained."

There are several complementary and coherent readings for the Reading, It is upon us to follow the best of it (3918 ). In order to attain this goal we have to consider the whole Reading.

Here another derivative for the verb QataAAa

et des fruits abondants
Wafakihatin katheeratin
Never interrupted, never too far./Neither ending; nor forbidden.
La maqtooAAatin walamamnooAAatin

Let us compare the form of the verb "qataAAa" in the verses where it is used as to cut virsus other verses where "qataAAa" has a symbolic meaning

In the first case, the verb used is qattaAAa which means to cut/mark

their hands and feet be cut off on alternate sides (533)
tuqattaAAa aydeehim waarjuluhum min khilafin

and cut/mark their hands (1231)
waqattaAAna aydiyahunna

the women that cut/mark their hands (1250)
alnniswati allatee qattaAAna aydiyahunna

So, I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides (2071)
falaoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakum min khilafin

I will cut-off your hands and feet from alternate sides (2649)
laoqattiAAanna aydiyakum waarjulakummin khilafin

and are given to drink boiling water that cuts-up their intestines (4715)
wasuqoo maan hameeman faqattaAAa amAAaahum

The same form with a symbolic meaning is also used in other verses

their mutual relations will collapse with them./and all excuses have abandoned them(2166)
wataqattaAAat bihimu al-asbabu

all is severed between you(694)
laqad taqattaAAabaynakum

And We separated them into twelve tribes as nations (7160)
WaqattaAAnahumu ithnatayAAashrata asbatan

And We divided them through the land as nations. (716
WaqattaAAnahum fee al-ardi omaman

their hearts are severed.(9110)
taqattaAAa quloobuhum

But people have torn their unity wide asunder(2193)
WataqattaAAoo amrahum baynahum

(2353 )

and sever your family ties (4722)
watuqattiAAoo arhamakum

Regarding the verses above, in 538 the verb QataAAa is not used in the same form like in 533, 1231, 1250, 2071, 4715

faiqtaAAoo aydiyahuma -538-

I think each detail in grammar and orthography is important to have a better understanding of the Reading.

Salam

Fahad1

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

peace marie .
do u believe it is "hands" or "resources" . u previously said that u believed it is physical hands ?

marie

Salam Fahad,

The male thief, and the female thief, you shall cut from their resources/seperate their hands, 'as' a reward for/from what they gained 'and' a deterrent from God. God is Almighty, Wise.

do u believe it is "hands" or "resources" . u previously said that u believed it is physical hands ?

As I stated it in my previous message, there is not only one reading of some verses, then the two understandings are coherent because the Reading is rich in meanings. In the light of the Reading, Aydee can be understood as physical hands or power...
According the context of each verse, we choose the meaning which feet and make sence regarding the whole Reading.

IMHO, the amputation of their hands is excluded because the Reading gives us several examples where a specific form of the verb qataAAa is used to mean to cut in its literal meaning 'qattaAAa'.

'qataAAa' in 538 should be considered in its symbolic meaning and that doesn't imply any physical contact with The male thief, and the female thief hands.

The God knows best.

Salam