marrying an adulteress / adulter
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peace claurianta
Is the adulterer forever outside the circle of believers, and if so, shouldn't he be brought to death for leaving Islam? (the answer is no, there is a punishment for adultery which is not equivalent to that of abandoning Islam).
where do u find death sentence for "apostasy" ?
but yes i share ur view on adulteres or idolworshippers that can change into muslims - which actually contradicts also your idea of death penalty for leaving islam....
lk
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peace again
also i would say it's not really an instruction for idolworshippers to marry their kind coz either they don't even know they're idolworshippers and then it cant pass as an instruction, or they're openly outside islam - in which case they don't take instruction from quran. I'd rather take it as an indication of what would generally happen
lk
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Salaam all,
Claurianta's questions & objections are very reasonable & valid (although I don't agree that Islam mandates the death penalty for apostasy because it does not).
That's why, as I mentioned before, I like Muhammad Asad's translation & explanation concerning the matter. Please do refer to it.
This is what he says
Would any of you agree with & comment on the above? What do you think?
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Zehra,
The interpretation you have posted from Muhammad Asad seems to be the most logical conclusing, seeing as any other conclusion would lead to allowing adultering muslims to marry idolaters.
One question that still bothers me though. It is quite clear that sex outside marriage is not allowed, but does this always result in adultery. Personally I'm inclined to think that if both are unmarried, it amounts to going against the law, but still doesn't amount to adultery, because adultery has a clear victim - the adulterer's spouse, whereas consensual sex between two unmarried persons doesn't have that third party victim. It seems to me therefore that it's two different crimes... one where there is a victim (such as the wife or husband of the adulterer, or the victim of a rapist - though I question the necessity of four witnesses in the latter case; I would be inclined to think rape is also a separate crime due to lack of consent, in which case the victim cannot be held responsible) and another where there is none. This is just personal interpretation of the Koran... because the part that forbids us from having sex before getting married does not say that it amounts to adultery (though I would agree that when one is married and the other unmarried it equals adultery for both - as per an interpretation of 2403).
Now, the questions turns to 55 which according to my translation states that only chaste women are lawful (either believers or people of the Book) - does this indicate a disallowance of marrying an adulterer? Or on the other hand, does in mean that chastity is not something that is lost forever, but rather something that can be regained. That is, can you become chaste again by repenting your sins?
Finally, I'm going to throw in a personal interpretation which I'm sure I don't share with everyone else. I think that the Koran, given all of its figurative language, is not always to be taken 100% literally (as in the case of chopping off hands). Therefore, I am inclined to think that marriage, despite the formality given to it in the Koran, means any committed relationship that is intended for the long term... so any steady relationship (keeping the normal waiting period for divorce between relationships them if there is an unforeseen break-up) would rather imply an infraction on the level of the form (lack of two witnesses and dowry) rather than implying adultery or otherwise illegal intercourse. So basically I would be inclined to assimilate them to the Koranic definition of marriage, even though they are lacking in the express formalities. As an end note, Islamic marriage doesn't seem to correspond to the traditional Western conception, seeing as divorce is allowed, and I haven't even found any specific restriction of marrying someone even though you don't plan to spend the rest of your life with them. Any ideas on this? (in general I'm one to focus much more on essence and function than on form)
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peace claurianta, all
i very much like the points you brought up and tend to have a similar interpretation
zina is usually translated as adultery or fornication (what an awful word) being sex outside mariage
but in quran there is just the one word
the laws regulating marriage (that act of marrying) are mostly civil laws quran actually doesn't say much about it except that there have to be 2 witnesses - which means it's not a secret relationship
i also believe that laws evolve with society and time, even quranic laws. to give you an example the 3 months waiting period in case of divorce could be shortended today by a pregnancy test
what doesn't change is the inherent meaning of the message - the reason to be don't cheat on your partner, respect each other, don't engage in relations just for sex which i believe should be an act of love - if not we're not above the animal in us
that's what comes over to me...
elke -
Salaam all,
Interesting points brought up by Claurianta again. However, as far as I know, the Arabic word "zina" means any sexual relations outside marriage (whether or not the parties involved are married or not). Thus, it covers both the English words "fornication" & "adultery". I don't know Arabic myself though so I can't guarantee the meaning of the word but that's the translation & explanation I have read.
I don't know about the formal requirements of marriage itself. However, I do agree with Claurianta that the rules (& punishment) for adultery/fornication do not apply to cases of rape. The Qur'an does not talk about rape so the laws pertaining to that fall under a state's domain. Rape is a totally different matter altogether and should be dealt with accordingly (There's no consent involved in the case of the victim and she cannot be punished when she has done nothing wrong. That defies logic!) -
i also believe that laws evolve with society and time, even quranic laws. to give you an example the 3 months waiting period in case of divorce could be shortended today by a pregnancy test
what doesn't change is the inherent meaning of the message - the reason to be don't cheat on your partner, respect each other, don't engage in relations just for sex which i believe should be an act of love - if not we're not above the animal in us
elkeExactly. There's one part that is the substance, the really important stuff, like don't cheat, respect etc. (which are imperative) and then there is other stuff which is more instructions or examples of how this can be accomplished, like the formalities of marriage and the waiting period in case of pregnancy, that are more suppletive in that they show A way, not THE way. Again, the distinction is of form vs. substance. We must use our knowledge and intelligence to conform to the substance given our circumstances, and if we are incapable of doing so, we can go back to the Koran and find more specific instructions, realizing that these were instructions given to a certain people at a certain time, and that while the substance doesn't change as society changes, the form can. I realize that this is a more philosophical and figurative interpretation of the Koran, but I don't think there is any part of the Koran which mandates following a literal interpretation throughout. Just have to make sure not to impose out interpretation on others though, because they have the right to believe what they may (that is between God and them, and doesn't involve me).
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Salaam,
I had to put in this old input from Johnny K, very good input indeed!
Salam,
1st of all id like 2 say tht 'non-virgin' wld not be the right term 2 use since a previously married woman wld also be a 'non-virgin' but not an adulteress. The verse clearly says tht adulterers n idolators may not be married by believers. HOWEVER dont forget tht after sincere repentance neither an idol worshipper nor an adulterer remains wht he was. Eg somebody was a Trinitarian Christian worshipping Jesus as GOD be4. Hes an idolator n such a person cannot be married 2 a believer. However when he repents n submits 2 GOD then obviously he aint an idol worshipper any more. So the verse means those ppl WHO R STILL IN IDOLATROUS OR ADULTRESS STATE OF MIND. I hope this is clear now. GOD Bless!
Peace Sis Majidah
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peace be upon you,
I agree with Shabbir Ahmed's interpretation regarding 243
The adulterer couples with none but an adulteress who worships her desire. And with the adulteress none couples but the adulterer who worships his desire. And it is forbidden to the believers.
tells us the punishment of the man or the women guilty of zina.
Then, tells us that, the man or the women punished in cannot have committed zina alone. The man or the women he has committed zina with has also commited zina, and therefore, should be punished too !Thus, the main teaching of the verse is that, you cannot punish the women guilty of zina without punishing the man she has committed zina with, and vice versa.
Peace
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Salaam All
What do you think about this ayat (marrying adulters)? If it's prohibited how can women ever know whether their bridegrooms have had an affair or not? Maybe in shariah laws it would be possible with public lashing (except no witnessed affairs) but what about now? As for men, are we supposed to ask our girlfriends this before marriage? Like "have you ever commited adultery" or "are you a virgin" This would be rude.
Any ideas appreciated.
Peace...
As salamu alaykum.
Respectfully.I think adulters have their own circles and we have our own so i think it's safe to say that it is impossible for us to marry one of them and vice versa.
Butz i don't think it would be ruid to ask a woman if she is a virgin. I mean, i'm a virgin and that's not something i'm ashamed of, because that is not a sin. I'm ashamed of my sins.As salamu alaykum.
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Alen,i think anything is possible if u allow it..
in regards to what you say . i dont think its rude to ask a girl if she is a virigin if ur intention is to marry her, though some people have been married and divorced does that mean theyre not good..
adulters are people who seek sex outside of marriage so like i dunno y anyone would marry someone who had sex with someone while that person has a partner(wife/husband) in the first place.. fornication is sex before marriage.. this is what i know.
i believe some people make misstakes and its not upto us to judge because some people repent and we dont know whats in the hearts of people. but i personally wouldnt trust an adulter for the fact that what if it happened to me.. then again we dont know the reasons for their actions.
Anyway God is the most merciful and life goes on
Asalamu alaikum -
peace
if a person is an adulterer or adulteress that implies they are presently engaged in these actions.....
if a person committed an act of adultery in the past then in the past they may have been an adulterer but as long as they have repented and follow quran aloe and can like the women in the days of the prophet pledge to not commit these acts what is the issue people???
how can do oyu judge? by only using the words before if they repent?
you can say how does one know if one has repented
well why cant youask them to put it in writing?
and to swear by Allah they have repented and swaer by Allah the will uphol the laws of God per quran.
all this verse says to me is this....
if you cheat on your mate then maybe you should lok at your mate hes probably cheating too
doesnt that make sense?
God knows the futre we dont
if He says an Adulterer can marry an Adultress then that means men who cheat wil be cheated on also
Clearly we see the term Adulterer and Adultress implying Adulterer is a man and adultress is a woman
God doest forget....Clearly this shows me no woman would cheat unless her man cheats
Thus again see pairing
Birds of a feather flock together
If a man is committing adultery or lets say adultery is fornication and not cheating
so if a man i committing fornication He can nt marry someone who doesnt do that'
If a man is committing fornication he cant marry me either if im a vrgin or divorced
the only way HE could marry me would be if i also committd fornication or i also committed adultery
but If a man isnt a virgin and was not ever married
then clearly He isnt allowed to amrry a virgin untill He repents and stops all illegal sexual actionsthe same thing with a woman
There is no way if a woman isnt a virgin and was not ever married
then she clearly isnt allowed to marry a virgin untill she repents and stops all illegal sexual actionsHow does one know?
Simple if hey dont follow Quran alone dont expect them to alway be truthful....
first key
i they dont folow Gods Book then be cautious
and perhaps take more extreme measures
STD testing lie detector etc
Signed documents etc
ONe thing is for sure
if someone says they follow the quran alone and they have clearly repented for their actions they are forgiven
easy as that
if you need mroe evidence if the person s truthful why wld they ahve any issue giving outhe extra needed things????
for exampe,
I WASNT BORN MUSLIM
RIGHT?
BUT NOW I AM MUSLIM I BELEIVE IN THE QURAN ALONE RIGHT?
OK SO LETS SAY I MEET A MAN WHO FOLLOWS QURAN ALONE
AND LETS SAY HE ASKS ME AM I A VIRGIN (IF I NEVER WAS MARRIED) ? AND I SAY NO
THEN HE SAYS OK DID U REPENT ?
AND I SAY YES?
THEN WHATEVER DOCUMENT OR SPEECH HE SKS ME TO SAY/SIGN IN THE NAME OF GOD TO PROVE IT WHY WOULD IT BE AN ISSUE? IF I WAS TRUTHFUL AND CLEALY REPENTED? IF I WAS CAUTIOUS OR SLOW TO DO WHAT WAS ASKED THEN HE HAS REASON TO BE SUSPISIOCUS
LETS SAY SAME SCEARIO
HE ASK ME IF IM A VIRGIN AND I SAY NO
THENHE ASKS ME WAS I MARRIED BEFORE
I SAY YES
THEN HE GOES THE EXTRA SEP AND SAYS
DID YOU EVER HAVE ANY SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP OUTSIDE OF THE MARRIAGE?
IF I SAY YES
THEN HE ASKS DID YOU REPENT?
AND LETS SAY I SAY YES
THEN HE CAN ASK FOR MORE EVIDENCE? IF I DONT RESPOND COOPEATIVELY THAT IS A CAUSE OF SUSPICION RIGHT?
IF I TRULY REPENT FOR SOMEHTING
WHY OWULD I HAVE AN ISSUE TO DO A LIETECTOR TEST
SIGN A PAPER
SWEAR BY ALLAH WHY WOULD I HAVE AN ISSUE
THE ISSUE COMES IN
WHEN
THE PERSON A
DOESNT FOLLOW QURAN ALONE
IF YOU FOLLOW QURAN ALONE
LETS SAY YOU A GUY AN YOU WANA MARRY A WOMAN OF THE PREVIOUS SCRIPTURE
AND SHE HAS COMMITED FORNICATION IN HER PAST
HOW CAN SHE TRULY REPENT TO THE ALMIGHTY GOD??
IF SHE ISNT EVEN SURE WHO THE ALMIGHTY GOD IS
MAYBE SHE REPENTED TO JESUS AND NOT GOD
THIS WHERE THINGS GET FUZZY
YOU CANT BE SURE OF A NON MUSLIM IF THEY TRULY REPENTED TO THE GOD OR NOT??
BUT ANYWAYS THE POINT IS THIS
WHY WOULD SOMEONE WHO FOLLOWS QURAN ONE HAVE ANY ISSUE ? IF THE PERSON REPENTED
ABOUT THE GIRL WHO KEEPS ASKIG QUESIONS HOW DO OYU KNOW I YOUR A VIRGIN AND YO MET AMAN HOW CAN OYU TELL IF HE IS A FORNICATOR?
START WITH MAKING SURE HE MAN YOUR MARRING IS ALSO A QURAN ALONE FOLLOWER FIRST OFF
IF HE IS NOT I DON BELEIVE WE ARE ALLOWED TO BE MARRIED TO THEM ANYWAYS
IN THAT CASE
HE FOLLO QURAN ALONE RIGHT?
OK SO YOU ASK HIM? AND HE SWEARS BY ALLAH IF HE DID OR DID NOT? IF YOU SEEK MORE PROOF WHY SHOULD HE HESITATE ??? THAT WOULD BE A SIGN IN ITSELF HE IS HIDING SOMEHTING??
IF HE AGREES AND PASSES ALL FORMS OF EVIDENCE NEEDED
THEN ALL YOU CAN DO IS PUT YOUR TRUST IN ALLAH
SEEMS EASY TO ME??
AMANDA
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Salam born again. The verse is mistranslated. The word is not adulterer, the word is prostitute and prostitutee.
Zani and zanit, are prostitute and prostitutee, zan is prostitution.
Allah taught man the names of all things.
Peace,
thanks very much for this clarifications Brother Al Araf.Maria
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"Zani and zanit, are prostitute and prostitutee, zan is prostitution."
What be your evidence for that statment. Give evidence from Lane or Murfadat. Or Taj Al Arus. Lisan is also appropraite as evidence. And if you do not have these sources than try PRL. If you have Abdul Mannan's dictonary give evidence from there. If your right the implactions are unique. If zina means prostitute than this discussion will be intrestinger. But give evidence for your claim. -
salam l.hun. zani wa zanit are words that have their root in aramaic.
please consult an aramaic dictionary. you will find the origin of these words there. while i am aware of project root list, and its usage of lane's lexicon, the colloquial usage recorded by lane can be extremely misleading on occaisons. lane was either consciously or unconsciously imposing his western christian expectations on some of the words.
allah is the teacher.
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Zani , or zania is a label given to fornicators or adulterers who have been confirmed by 4 witnesses , which indirectly amounts to public sex.
And once somebody has been established as Zani, then allah commands us not to marry such a person , only a person labeled as such may marry them , or the idolators.
Idolators would marry such a category if they wish to, because they are not bounded by Allah's command of prohibition.
All illegal relationships of the sexual kind , may it be only dirty talk/ touching, or engaging in sexual intercourse, but if cannot be confirmed by 4 witnesses, come under the classification of Fawahish.
I am not sure weather a zani label is reversible by repentence or not, this needs to be debated/confirmed.
peace siki