A humble request to ALL brothers and sisters
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The Quran alludes to a community of people who live their lives righteously and serving GOD Alone. I cannot see where The Quran alludes to a robotic community where everyone has to see eye-to-eye on every aspect of life.
I agree that the Qur'an does not allude to a robotic, over regulated community and didn't mean to insinuate otherwise. Actually, from my current understanding, differences in thought and opinion are not only inevitable, but welcomed.
"No we are not a sect. We do not have the structure and ORGANIZATION needed to make us a sect.
That is where they get the term ORGANIZED religion. Because it is organized to where there is a specific set of rules and mandates that it's adherents MUST follow and their is a Religious Leader who oversees the community and makes sure that the adherents are following these rules and thus worthy to be called brother or sister of the faith
.Are you talking about a "sect" or a "cult"?
Sect (noun)
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.Cult (noun)
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.the followers of such a religion or sect.I am definitely not big on labeling, but I wanted to give you the basis of my statement as to clarify my point. If we disagree, we disagree and its really not that big of a deal if we do. The bottom line is that many of us probably came to strive for God Alone from various paths and for various reasons and most of us here on free-minds.org seem to use the Qur'an as a guidance in our deen. Since we are different from others who use the Qur'an as a source of guidance, we are, technically, a sect. However, I will personally challenge this assertion because I have been inspired to revert BACK to a system and way of life and thought before widely popular sects and cults entered the picture (which is why I said that people who are inspired to think like us could be difined as a reaction to sectarianism rather than a simple sect...but most sects are reactionary....Its a circular arguement, I suppose).
From your statements, I am assuming that you think we do not have organization. Isn't this a form of organization?
The only consesus that The Quran mandates is what we all know concerning the Mukhamat signs of The Quran.....feeding the poor and hungry, standing up against oppression, showing kindness to orphans and our parents, speaking out against genocide and unnecessary war, sharing the GOD Alone message with others, volunteering for community service, etc. These are the deeds that The Quran Speaks of that will be taken into consideration in the hereafter on Judgement Day. This is the TRUE zakaa'.
I agree with you on the above. To me, the aforementioned is the universal foundation of our diversity (if this makes sense). The above "deeds" are applicable cross culture, cross gender, cross class.
The only thing that I can do to answer this is to refer you to The Quran 20114 and 551-2. These two passages along with 37 are what keep my heart content concerning this and other issues. I hope I was of some help to you
.I actually have 551-2 and 37 marked in my Qur'an as the "read if you are frustrated" verses. I read them last night and gained peace. Thanks for the referral.
ONE
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Peace everybody,
Dear Kyle,
The fact that we are all debating(hajja), which is also an instruction from the God, PROVES that we all have the urge to be united with the same system. This is not robotic as Brother Damon stated, this is logical, just as we all eat food, we all brush our teeth, we all take showers/baths, etc.Say "Let each work ACCORDING TO HIS OWN. You Lord is fully aware of who is best guided to the path."
(Quran, 1784)As you said, we all eat food, we all brush our teeth and we all take showers and baths. What I am pointing out is that it is both unnecessary and illogical that we all brush our teeth in the same motion as each other, using the same hand as each other and brushing in a specific order as each other. It is not necessary or logical to eat the same way, using the same hand, chewing our food a certain way or holding our untensils in the same hand. I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Just do what has to be done and follow what has to be followed, but let's not continue to delude ourselves into thinking that we have to do things exactly alike nor do we have to follow the same exact views alike either.
Peace,
Damon. -
Peace,
I do not have to take showers and baths in the same way that you do. This is what I am trying to point out to Natu and SalikahDC.
Bro, perhaps you should go and reread my post. I did not in any shape or form insinuate that we should be clones when it comes to deen-particularly regarding our personal stage of Islam. I said the exact opposite.
ONE
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Peace be with you SalikahDC,
Are you talking about a "sect" or a "cult"?
Sect (noun)
A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice.
A religious body, especially one that has separated from a larger denomination.
A faction united by common interests or beliefs.Cult (noun)
a.A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
b.the followers of such a religion or sect.In all honesty and actuality, I ask you is there Really difference here? Extremist, Cult-Like sunnis believe that a righteous woman is one who covers her hair. Most Liberal sunnis from other so-called muslim Sects believe the sam exact thing. Sunni sects and sunni extremist cults alike believe in Pilgrimage to Mecca and they all actually believe that this Pilgrimage erases past sins and mistakes and gives them a clean slate. So is there really any difference?
If we disagree, we disagree and its really not that big of a deal if we do.
That's exactly how I feel. I said earlier that I believe that a strong community is made up of people who will have these disagreements and still remain united on the fundamental issues.
Since we are different from others who use the Qur'an as a source of guidance, we are, technically, a sect.
The fact that there is not a unified view concerning salat actually invalidates this statement. The sunnis and shiahs may not agree on exactly HOW their physical prayer is to be peformed, but they definately agree that it is a physical prayer towards Mecca. Many people here are very much divided on this one issue alone, let alone scores of other issues. This fact alone makes us non-sectarian since we do not have a unified view on alot of these issues. We are just a group of people who come together to share their own individual understandings on certain issues. A sect is already agreed upon about the issues that we discuss here.
I actually have 551-2 and 37 marked in my Qur'an as the "read if you are frustrated" verses. I read them last night and gained peace. Thanks for the referral.
You are welcome and I'm glad if I am able to be of any help to you.
On a related note I would like to share with everyone that a Muslim is not simply one who submits to GOD. Literally, the term muslim is one who is a peaceful person. I am 100% at peace with knowing that only GOD makes muslims, that He is the one who teaches and guides and only He knows the exact truth. I am at peace having my understandings and respecting others who have different understandings than mine. Because in the end only GOD knows 100% for sure. I am perfectly happy and at peace with this. No worrys, no stress, no drama. This is why I no longer participate in ideological debates anymore. Only GOD guides and only He knows best who is deserving of His guidance. With this understanding, I believe that I truly know what it means to be a Muslim.
ONE.
GOD Alone/Quran Alone,
Damon. -
Peace be with you SalkihaDC,
Bro, perhaps you should go and reread my post. I did not in any shape or form insinuate that we should be clones when it comes to deen-particularly regarding our personal stage of Islam. I said the exact opposite.
Yes I'm aware that you said the opposite, I was commenting on how you and Natu would like discussions to be held so that we can come to a unified view and understanding of Salaat. I apologize, maybe I should've pointed that out when I made that particular statement. My apologies.
Salaam,
Damon. -
Peace Natu Lotetree
Present the evidence for your ideas of what 'Solaa' is all about and then the rest of us can decide and think for ourselves and pick the best way or continue in our own way. Natu I wouldn't worry about those who unjustly label others and I'm sure you wouldn't. Disregard them unless they have evidence.
Nural
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Peace Natu Lotetree
Present the evidence for your ideas of what 'Solaa' is all about and then the rest of us can decide and think for ourselves and pick the best way or continue in our own way. Natu I wouldn't worry about those who unjustly label others and I'm sure you wouldn't. Disregard them unless they have evidence.
Nural
Hello Nural,
The debate on this topic is whether we should reach a consensus on each topic discussed and have that consensus as an official rule of the FreeMinds.org. I say what is your view on that matter....?
Regards,
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The debate on this topic is whether we should reach a consensus on each topic discussed and have that consensus as an official rule of the FreeMinds.org. I say what is your view on that matter....?
Peace Lotetree
I would like to answer you question on behalf of Nural. I've been waiting for someone to ask the question in just the way you worded it.
First and foremost, this is "free-minds", so there are no "official rules", because even if there were, it would mean nothing, people would do what they wish, this website has no authority over anyone, nor do I claim to have any authority in opening THE THREAD
Secondly, the aim of what I am trying to do at the moment is not to reach a common consensus, but to call for clarification for a few things - 'THE THREAD' of the salat section being a key tool for this to be done.
As it is, topics like how to pay zakat (traditionally understood as religious tithe), or topics like whether messengers will come after Muhammad are of less importance than some others. The reason I have tried to work for a structured and peaceful open minded debate is that the issue in question - salat - could (as a sizeable majority would agree) amount to idolatry, whilst others would disagree, and all due respect must be given to peoples views. Taking different views is healthy, because it expresses our individuality and the talent of our lord who created us, but in some concepts even a little slackness can lead to dire consequences (we can subconsciously even set up our own egos as idols beside God). As far as having different personal interpretations, this is fine, some people who accept physical salat pray differently to others who also accept it, and the twice daily commitments of non-physical salat are also done in a number of ways amongst those who reject physical salat. These are the differences we can be soft on, like whether we should be like God or not, but in fundamentals, we need to work extremely hard to find the truth.
We can all have our independent methods of interpreting things, but if for example, somebody says that the Quran says that there are two gods (please not that I am not claiming this of those who accept physical salat, it is merely an example, manor of speaking), then this is blatant misunderstanding of the Quran. The issue we face today is whether physical salat is correct or not, and the foundations of such an issue lie in the Quran - this is not subjective. It would appear to many people on this forum, that if we accept physical salat then we are committing idolatry (all brothers and sisters please don't debate this here, the appropriate thread is available for this), and this is an extremely important issue to discuss, for our own benefit, and the benefit of those who may be missing out on credit from God (by rejecting physical salat), or indulging in idol worship (by accepting physical salat).
Some would say that this difference alone could distinguish between a believer and a disbeliever. And in such an instance, I believe that it is a matter of emergency that we all leave our selfishness behind and try to help each other. As may be found in 'THE THREAD', my position is such that I appreciate that there are weakness on both sides of the argument and I behave open-mindedly. It is not such that I am trying to get people to understand or anything - I merely worry that there may be some amongst us who may be being led astray whilst thinking they are believers. Please forgive me for wording this in such as way, but I really could not put it down in a clearer way.
The worst thing we can do is set up an idol besides God, and if any topic has even the slightest substance to make some tiny connection with idolatry, then it is our duty as Muslim brothers and sisters to work together and see what the truth is. Some may be happy as they are, (physical or non physical salat), which I personally do not approve of, we need to work together to understand this topic which was covered up as a taboo subject by the sectarians. But as guided people, it is our duty at least to help ourselves. If this involves debate on a fundamental, then so be it, but we cannot disregard something which has even the slightest connection to setting up idols, for fear for ourselves and for our brothers and sisters, we need to come together and clear up misunderstandings. Salat is a fundamental, we need to clear up misunderstandings, whether they turn out to be on part of those who accept physical salat or those who reject it. My position on this issue will remain neutral until all relevant verses have been successfully discussed in THE THREAD of the salat section. I will not discuss this in this thread; one thread is enough to make all results and findings easily accessible to all.
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Hello Natu,
Thanks for the clarification again...
First and foremost, this is "free-minds", so there are no "official rules", because even if there were, it would mean nothing, people would do what they wish, this website has no authority over anyone....
Agreed. Lets keep it this way.
But I agree with you as I said before on debating Salat. So lets begin this on the relevant thread or shall we open a new thread so that members can begin a fresh?
Take care.
Regards,
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Peace,
Thanks Natu for explaining.
We have out source of wisdom, as muslims in the Quran. We are not going to make authorities like the traditionalists made, this is just the same mistake, it would be foolish. But I agree on an indepth study of the text of the Quran to see what 'Solaa' really is, This part of Quranic study needs to be done, like other sections were done. If people aren't satisfied with the Quran's authority thats their issue and debate is always open. But I don't give that kind of authority to individuals around me, but if someone presents the arguement and I can verify it by checking for myself then I can't reject that arguement if I don't have a better one.
I think it would be a better idea to try and follow the thread that has already been opened and see if you can contribute, this is because it's a well structured thread and alot have already participated, but if you want to discuss other aspects of 'solaa' by all means open another thread because this is a very diverse topic at the moment and I personally think it will always be. If humans only had one kind of solaa then life would be boring and we would be like robots.
Peace
Nural