The ultimate proof traditional prayer is salat !
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According to some people, the real meaning of the word "salat" is not prayer, but "commitment", "turning toward".
I do agree with that, and I think too that the word "salat", as used in the quran, has a broader meaning than "prayer".But, why would not the traditional prayer be a way of upholding our commitment to God , and to provide betterment ?
Here is the purpose of the traditional prayer, according to a sunni source
It should always be borne in mind that Allah does not need mans prayer, because He is free of all needs. He is only interested in our prosperity and well-being in every sense. When He emphasizes the necessity of prayer and charges us with a duty, He means to help us, because whatever good we do is for our own benefit, and whatever offence we commit is against our own souls. Here, too, man is the center of gravity, and his common interest is the main concern. The benefits that man can derive from the Islamic prayer are immeasurable, and the blessings beyond imagination. This is not just a theory or conventional assumption; it is a fascinating fact and a spiritual experience.
The following is an explanation of the effectiveness of the Islamic prayer
- It strengthens the belief in the existence and goodness of Allah and transmits this belief into the innermost recesses of mans heart.
- It enlivens this belief and makes it constructive in the practical course of life.
- It helps man to realize his natural and instinctive aspiration to greatness and high morality, to excellence and virtuous growth.
- It purifies the heart and develops the mind, cultivates the conscience and comforts the soul.
- It fosters the good and decent elements in man, and suppresses the evil and indecent inclinations.
When we analyze the Islamic prayer and study its unique nature, it is apparent that it is not merely a physical motion or a void recital of the Holy Book. It is a matchless and unprecedented formula of intellectual meditation and spiritual devotion, of moral elevation and physical exercise, all combined. It is an exclusively Islamic experience where every muscle of the body joins the soul and the mind in the worship and glory of Allah.
It is difficult for anyone to impart in words the full meaning of the Islamic prayer, yet it can be said that it is
- A lesson in discipline and willpower.
- A practice in devotion to Allah and all worthy objectives.
- A vigilant reminder of Allah and a constant revelation of His Goodness.
- A seed of spiritual cultivation and moral soundness.
- A guide to the most upright way of life.
- A safeguard against indecency and evil, against deviation and stray.
- A demonstration of true equality, solid unity, and brotherhood.
- An expression of thankfulness to Allah and appreciation of Him.
- A course of inner peace and stability.
- An abundant source of patience and courage, of hope and confidence.
(http//www.al-islam.com/articles/articles-e.asp?fname=ALISLAM_R30_E#The%20Purpose%20of%20Prayer)
If prayer can help people remembering the aim of their life is to serve God, if prayer can help people boost their psychological energy to come together and support each other towards the goals of the Quran, and then strengthen their commitment to steadfastly enforce the deen ordered by God and practically shown to the humankind by the Prophet ...
...Why would we abandon such a good practice?IMHO, there is nothing wrong with salat, provided
- we don't think it is the only way of maintaining our salat
- we don't believe that the act of prayer deserve rewards for itself,
- we don't believe that there exists some ways (or times) of praying not mentioned in the Quran that are the only ways the prayer are valid
- we don't focalise ourselves on the gymnastic
- we don't use it to create sects...
So, I think (but it would have to be elaborated) that all that help people turning toward the deen of Islam can be called "salat". Praying God is salat, fasting is salat, giving charity is salat, freeing a slave is salat, marriying is salat, studying the quran is salat, reading Free-Minds can be salat...etc...
And it seems to me that, at some places in the quran God uses the word "salat" to designate salat in general, and, at some other places, God uses this word to designate some particular form of salat (see context to identify it).Furthermore, as Hlatif pointed to very pertinently, the traditional prayer is practised nearly in the same way by sunni, shia and ibadites. So, it is very hard to imagine (as Aidid Safar claims) it has been fabricated by men (because it would have entailed an agreement between these sects) ; yet it can have been distorted...
In the same way, the meaning of the word salat can have been modified across time, and can have lost part of its richness ; but this does not imply all of what we have inherited should be wrong.
May God guide us,
Peace
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Peace,
Ok, but where's the proof? or 'ultimate proof' as you put it?
Nural
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Peace,
Ok, but where's the proof? or 'ultimate proof' as you put it?
Nural
Well ? ...
I hoped you would help me find it wink.
.
.
.Seriously...
I have given this name to my post so as to make it attractive D ...
But the only thing I may have proven is that there is no contradiction between salat = commitment and salat = prayer...
IMHO, Prayer is a form of commitment.Peace
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Peace.
I would strongly recommend visiting the following thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3377
Although this discussion may take a considerable amount of time, it is worth it, instead of having tonnes of other threads each reaching a different conclusion. If anybody has any suggestions for verses which ought to be discussed there, then please feel free to send me a PM and the verse will be added to the list of verses to be discussed (please rad the first post on that thread). Thanks.
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peace JM,
As with most things, the answer lies not in the extremes, but in the wasat
Waw-Siin-Tay = middle, midst, among, best, best part of a thing, mediate/intercede between, most remote from the extremes, equidistant, intermediate, most conforming/equitable/just/balanced, most excellent of them in particular.
There is no one method of traditional prayer to be found in the traditional hadiths, thus perhaps you can enlighten us as to how it became "nearly the same" as you put it?
http//members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htmSecondly, dua can be described as slw, see my comments on 338-39 in my SLW article. It seems many people skip this point.
slw=prayer is far too specific and stands out like a sore thumb, not only in al quran, but in the dictionary meanings
prayer, supplication, petition, oration, eulogy, benediction, commendation, blessing, honour, magnifiy, bring forth, follow closely, walk/follow behind closely, to remain attached, to contact or to be in contact.
Which one is usually only done to a diety? one, prayer. Clearly, it has a much more general meaning, as you have also recognised.
my message in pictorial form
http//www.garycmartin.com/images/big_bunny_thumb.jpgWakas
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There is no one method of traditional prayer to be found in the traditional hadiths, thus perhaps you can enlighten us as to how it became "nearly the same" as you put it?
http//members.aol.com/Mamalek2/qbook11.htmFirst, I would like to tell you that I find your works very enlightening.
You say "There is no one method of traditional prayer"
But why is the method so important to you ? Are you sure it is not a vestige of your sunni inheritance ?
Well, God put no emphasis in the method, so why would we put emphasis on it ?You say "to be found in the traditional hadiths"
The collections of hadith were written (by bukhari & co) about 2 centuries after the death of prophet.
Do you think people have waited for bukhari to pray as they pray ?
Why would the shia and the ibadi have followed the sunni's way (except some little variations) ?Where do the method of praying come from ?
The truth is that each muslim (shia, sunni or ibadi) has prayed like his parents prayed, and, this way, they have transmitted to us the way the prophet prayed , maybe with some distortions.
The method of praying of the prophet has been transmitted to us by the way of tradition.Which one of the traditionnal methods should you choose ?
You can choose the one you like much, the one that help you prayer to reach the more easily its objectives. You can also invent your one method if you prefer ; but maybe it is more reasonable to try to pray like the prophet prayed (whereas we cannot know it precisely).What to do in a congregation ?
It is clear that, if everyone prays according to his own way, people will be distracted, and will not manage to pray.
So, I think that the best solution is to decide of the method by consultation.
An agreement will always be found if people remember that God do not put emphasis on the method, and that God dislikes divisions.Secondly, dua can be described as slw, see my comments on 338-39 in my SLW article. It seems many people skip this point.
Indeed, It seems that Aidid Safar sometimes skips the verses where it is difficult to understand salat as other thing than prayer , leading to the wrong conclusion that there is no room for prayer in the Quran.
May God reward you for your honest study
Peace -
peace JM,
The link I gave which you referenced was not my work.
I thought but I wasn't sure you were for an individualised method. I also had that view.
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1792maybe it is more reasonable to try to pray like the prophet prayed (whereas we cannot know it precisely).
Exactly. Impossible to verify (based on conjecture/guesswork), thus easy to hold/defend such a view. Anything passed on that far back is highly likely to contain changes.
An agreement will always be found if people remember that God do not put emphasis on the method
Thats probably what happened, hence a formalised method. This formalised method became obligatory... etc.
Indeed, It seems that Aidid Safar sometimes skips the verses where it is difficult to understand salat as other thing than prayer , leading to the wrong conclusion that there is no room for prayer in the Quran.
Indeed, A.S is human, thus imperfect... like everyone else.
Wakas
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peace JM,
The link I gave which you referenced was not my work.
No, contrary to what the way I wrote my previous post has let you think, I did not confuse your works with Malek's ones.
What I aimed to stress in this thread is that we should judge according to the values and objectives of the Quran, not only according to the letter. So, if the traditional prayer can help the umma to comply to the objectives God laid down in the Quran, and if it can help the Muslims to uphold their commitments (whether prayer be by itself a commitment or not) , it should not be forsaken (and the method should not be an issue).
Peace
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peace,
So, if the traditional prayer can help the umma to comply to the objectives God laid down in the Quran, and if it can help the Muslims to uphold their commitments (whether prayer be by itself a commitment or not) , it should not be forsaken (and the method should not be an issue).
If you feel it does that, fine. I dont.
Wakas
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peace,
So, if the traditional prayer can help the umma to comply to the objectives God laid down in the Quran, and if it can help the Muslims to uphold their commitments (whether prayer be by itself a commitment or not) , it should not be forsaken (and the method should not be an issue).
If you feel it does that, fine. I dont.
Wakas
Could you elaborate ?
Why do you think that traditional prayer is un unuseful ?
Do you think it is unuseful for you, or do you think it is unuseful for all muslims ?
Is it a matter of the level of you faith ?Do you really think all in the following text is wrong ?
It should always be borne in mind that Allah does not need mans prayer, because He is free of all needs. He is only interested in our prosperity and well-being in every sense. When He emphasizes the necessity of prayer and charges us with a duty, He means to help us, because whatever good we do is for our own benefit, and whatever offence we commit is against our own souls. Here, too, man is the center of gravity, and his common interest is the main concern. The benefits that man can derive from the Islamic prayer are immeasurable, and the blessings beyond imagination. This is not just a theory or conventional assumption; it is a fascinating fact and a spiritual experience.
The following is an explanation of the effectiveness of the Islamic prayer
- It strengthens the belief in the existence and goodness of Allah and transmits this belief into the innermost recesses of mans heart.
- It enlivens this belief and makes it constructive in the practical course of life.
- It helps man to realize his natural and instinctive aspiration to greatness and high morality, to excellence and virtuous growth.
- It purifies the heart and develops the mind, cultivates the conscience and comforts the soul.
- It fosters the good and decent elements in man, and suppresses the evil and indecent inclinations.
When we analyze the Islamic prayer and study its unique nature, it is apparent that it is not merely a physical motion or a void recital of the Holy Book. It is a matchless and unprecedented formula of intellectual meditation and spiritual devotion, of moral elevation and physical exercise, all combined. It is an exclusively Islamic experience where every muscle of the body joins the soul and the mind in the worship and glory of Allah.
It is difficult for anyone to impart in words the full meaning of the Islamic prayer, yet it can be said that it is
- A lesson in discipline and willpower.
- A practice in devotion to Allah and all worthy objectives.
- A vigilant reminder of Allah and a constant revelation of His Goodness.
- A seed of spiritual cultivation and moral soundness.
- A guide to the most upright way of life.
- A safeguard against indecency and evil, against deviation and stray.
- A demonstration of true equality, solid unity, and brotherhood.
- An expression of thankfulness to Allah and appreciation of Him.
- A course of inner peace and stability.
- An abundant source of patience and courage, of hope and confidence.
Peace
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Peace JM
Thanks for highlighting the virtues, benefits, and effects of a traditional prayer.
But have you ever thought that why people like brother Wakas and his likes do not accept the traditional prayer as a form of prayer.
There are strong valid reasons behind this rejection of traditional prayer, which I would like to highlight it for you.
The greatest reason for rejecting the traditional prayer is the following verse.
Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee and establish the PRAYERS. Verily the PRAYER stops from shameful and unjust deeds; and REMEMBRANCE of Allah is the GREATEST without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do 2945
Mark the words of Allah " VERILY / SURELY / CERTAINLY, THE PRAYER STOPS FROM SHAMEFUL AND UNJUST DEEDS"
If any person would have said I would not have believed his words, but when Allah speaks these words to the prophet, then it has to be believed and accepted as a TRUTH.
But the TRUTH is that our traditional prayer fails miserably in this test. There are millions of people (including non Muslims) who are not engaged in this kind of acts, does it imply that they are those who regularly pray. The bitter part of this issue is that the ARABS, among whom I live, are the most involved people in this crime and they are those who pray five times.
So our traditional prayer is unable to stop its performers from shameful and unjust deeds.
The verse 2945 and the prayer, both are explained in another verse.
And she, in whose house he was, sought to seduce him (to do an evil act), she closed the doors and said "Come on, O you." He said "I SEEK REFUGE IN ALLAH! Truly, HE is my LORD! He made my stay agreeable! Verily, the wrong doers will never be successful." 1223
And indeed she did desire him and he would have INCLINED TO HER DESIRE, had he not seen the PROOF of his Lord. Thus it was, that We might turn away from him evil and SHAMEFUL DEEDS. Surely, he was one of Our chosen, guided slaves. 1224
When prophet Yousuf sensed the dangers of being seduced he immediately REMEMBERED ALLAH and asked for protection. The result was that Allah turned away from him the evil deed. Prophet Yousuf would have inclined to the evil wishes of the lady had he not REMEMBERED ALLAH.
Then do ye REMEMBER Me; I will REMEMBER you. Be grateful to Me and reject not faith. 2152
And your Lord says "CALL ON ME, I WILL ANSWER YOU But those who are too arrogant to serve Me will surely find themselves in Hell in humiliation!" 4060
Those, who REMEMBER Allah and call on Him for help, then Allah never disappoints them.
Believer is COMMITTED to the COVENANT of Allah to ABSTAIN from shameful deeds.
Allah commands justice the doing of good and liberality to kith and kin and He FORBIDS all SHAMEFUL DEEDS and injustice and rebellion He instructs you that ye may receive admonition. And fulfil the COVENANT of Allah when ye have entered into it and break not your oaths after ye have confirmed them; indeed ye have made Allah your surety; for Allah knoweth all that ye do. 1690
Those who pray ritually and who are not engaged in acts of abominations and obscenity, it is only because they fear Allah, they fear Hell and the punishment and not because of the PRAYERS. There are in thousands who regularly pray but are engaged in such activities. This proves that the RITUAL PRAYERS do not stop anyone from such evil acts. The words of Allah are in truth and cannot be false and if we believe His words then those who pray will never COMMIT evil acts
I cannot commit sex with a lady in front of people, similarly I cannot commit sex if I believe and feel that Allah is present everywhere and watching my activities.
Those who have COMMITTED to honour the covenants of 1690 and those who have COMMITTED to REMEMBER Allah always, will never get involved in EVIL ACTS because Allah is with him and HE will avert from him the EVIL deed.
THE COMMANDS FROM SALAAT
They said "O Shu'aib! Does your COMMITMENT (of propagating the message) COMMAND you that we leave off what our fathers used to worship, or that we leave off doing what we like with our property? Verily, you are the forbearer, right-minded!" (They said this sarcastically). 1187
The SALAAT explained in verse 762 768 779 793 & 567
All messengers are COMMITTED to the command of Allah to propagate and convey the message, which they received, by inspiration.
"I convey unto you the Messages of my Lord and give sincere advice to you. And I know from Allah what you know not. 762 (Noah)
"I convey unto you the Messages of my Lord, and I am a trustworthy adviser (or well?wisher) for you. 768 (Hud)
Then he (Saleh) turned from them, and said "O my people! I have indeed conveyed to you the Message of my Lord, and have given you good advice but you like not good advisers." 779
Then he (Shu'aib) turned from them and said "O my people! I have indeed conveyed my Lord's Messages unto you and I have given you good advice. Then how can I sorrow for the disbelieving people's (destruction)." 793
O Messenger (Muhammad SAW)! Convey (the Message) which has been sent down to you from your Lord. And if you do not, then you have not conveyed His Message. Allah will protect you from mankind. Verily, Allah guides not the people who disbelieve. 567
Prophet Shuaib was COMMITTED to the commands from Allah to propagate HIS message, which he received by inspiration and thus his COMMITMENTS commanded him to preach what he was ordered.
Do we receive commands from our RITUAL PRAYERS? NO!
Besides stopping from doing shameful acts the SALAAT COMMANDS the believers to propagate the DEN of Allah.
There are many more reasons, but can't post in this thread.
If you feel that in your traditional prayer you receive COMMANDS and if you feel that your traditional prayer does STOP you form EVIL ACTS, then you can continue with the same. If not, then think over it.
For people like me, the traditional prayer serves nothing.
Thanks
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peace,
In addition to brother HK's post.
Do you really think all in the following text is wrong ?
No. There are some reasonable points. Significant number of embellishments/exaggerations however. The following being one such example "5. A guide to the most upright way of life. "
Its clear to me traditional prayer doesn't do what al quran says slw does. 1187 being a nice example. If you go through that list you referenced and compare regular reading of al quran with prayer, I think you'll find the former fairs better. Pity the text is not based on al quran however. Thus your criteria should be, does slw live up to what al quran says it should.
Wakas
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Peace hafeez kazi,
Your argument is that prayers are inefficient, because they don't prevent people to commit sins, so they are not salat.
I think your are missing the point.
IMHO, the main cause is not prayer, but
- the fact that prayer has been reduced to mere ritualism, putting emphasis on form instead of sincerity
- the fact that people think that praying (or, more generally, the 5 pilars) are the core of Islam, whereas praying is just aimed to help people remember God, and remember God enjoins them to do good deeds and reform the society
- the fact people believe that salat reduces itself to prayer
But, nonetheless, I think prayer is important for doing salat (provided we correct the above errors), and that forsaking prayer because it is not properly used would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Some interesting explanations for the issue of muslims today can be found in this test of Bashir Abid
(source http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/previous_issues/04/5/basicprob.htm)Some interesting quotes
In fact, rituals are practiced not out of sincerity or love for God but to save ones skin in the hereafter. If this fear is removed from the minds no one is going to practice any ritual in the name of religion.
Then comes the second phase ii) the phase of greed and lust. This phase is marked by the resurgence of evils (Shaiyateen) and unproductive elements (Mutrafeen) in the society (in the present terminology these are known as politicians, capitalists, and mullahs). In a society, which is based on pure Quranic laws, these elements dont have any place to exist and survive. They are used to a licentious and authoritarian lifestyle. And, the truth is, unless the meanings of Quran are forged or adulterated with foreign teachings, it is very difficult to follow this lifestyle in a society based on pure Laws of Quran. These elements, like wood termites, had entered the body of Muslim society and began to gnaw at its roots. They had twisted the meanings of Quran and concocted the stories (Hadith) to cover up their heinous crimes against the common masses. Actually, Kings and capitalists cannot enjoy a luxurious lifestyle without exploiting the masses and the masses cannot be exploited unless Mullahs intoxicate them with the opium of religion. Mullah had prepared a cocktail of Quran and Hadith called Shariah, which had become the sole criterion for determining the Truth. If anyone dared to challenge their evil deeds on the authority of Quran they silenced him by declaring him an apostate. This phase had lasted till the compilation of theological literature (hadith, fiqah, shariah etc.).
Then comes the third phase. iii) The phase of submissiveness and torpidity. Shariah, on one side, gave a free hand to kings and capitalist to do whatever they like (despotic terrorism). On the other side, it had shut the doors of freethinking and free speech (intellectual terrorism), and had kept the masses busy in ritualism. As a result, society lost its vigor and equilibrium and became full of disparities and injustices. Common masses gave up interest in life and became impotent. Their state of creativity and productivity fell down to zero. With the replacement of Quran by Shariah, Muslims gradually had lost their noble virtues such as unity, fraternity, tolerance, forbearance, enlightenment, creativity, and freedom of expression. Instead, they had turned to religious fanaticism. Consequently, they became the most deprived and cursed nation on earth.
Quran says Those who conceal the clear verses We have sent down, and the guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, ____ on them shall be Gods curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse. .But this does not entails that praying is not useful.
Here is the opinion of followers of Parwez about it
(source http//www.toluislam.com/pub_online/q_a1.htm)Question
About salat. Do you do exactly the same procedure (in movement and reciting) as the traditional muslim (Suni) do. Probably, you reject some practice as you consider contradict the Quran. If you can explain me about this.Answer
Tolu e Islam is neither Sunni nor Shia. Parwez Saheb was from Sunni Family background and he prayed like a Sunni (Hanafi). We have members who were born in Shia homes and they pray like Shias do. Similarly people from other Muslim sects pray according to the Sects they belong to. No one can for sure say that the Prophet prayed exactly like this or that and therefore no individual today has the right to say that this is the correct way of offering prayer. Tolu e Islam considers sectarianism as shirk and therefore does not want to prescribe any new of modified method of its own, fearing a new sect will be created. This can only be done if the Khilafat ala Minhaj e Risalat is established again and that Khaleefa is the only one who can decide or prescribe a common method to bring harmony in the Umma.We all pray as we have learnt from our families. The only thing to watch out for is to make sure that you do not do anything which could be considered as Shirk.
Anyhow Salat is not only the visual prayer, it also has wider meaning in that whatever we do all our life, we should follow the path laid down by Allah and follow it diligently. The prayer gatherings are a part of this wider Salat.
I fully agree with that.
Hope I have been clear,
Peace
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Peace brother JM
You have missed my second valid reason for rejecting the traditional PRAYER
The command received in the prayer.
What commands are you receiving in your traditional prayer?"Verily I am Allah there is no god but I so serve thou me (only) and ESTABLISH PRAYER for My REMEMBRANCE. 2814
This was the command to prophet Moses. It is explicit in the above verse that the PRAYER has to be ESTABLISHED for the REMEMBRANCE OF ALLAH "only"
Now look at your prayer, prophet Abraham, Muhammad and their family is REMEMBERED and BLESSINGS are sent on them.
Is this not against the commandment of Allah?
Did Allah say to REMEMBER anyone in the PRAYER besides HIM?
O you who believe! When you are called for the SALAAT on the day of gathering then hasten to the REMEMBRANCE of Allah and leave the sales that is better for you if you did but know! 629
The Second command from Allah to REMEMBER "only" HIM in the PRAYERS.
Did prophet REMEMBER prophet Abraham in his prayers? NO
Did he act against the commandment of Allah? NO.
Then how can we REMEMBER the two prophets and their family in our prayer?WE LEARNED THE PRAYER FROM THE PROPHET, THEN PLEASE ELABORATE FOR ME THE "tashhud" of the PROPHET. DID HE SEND BLESSINGS ON HIMSELF AND PROPHET ABRAHAM, IN HIS PRAYERS? WILL HE EVER COMMAND THE FOLLOWERS TO SEND BLESSINGS ON HIM AND PROPHET ABRAHAM, IN THEIR PRAYERS, WITHOUT THE COMMAND OF ALLAH?
Did you ever think that the 'TASHHUD" was FABRICATED?
Did you ever think that the 'ADHAN" was FABRICATED?The "AS SALAAM U ALAIKUM WA REHMATULLAH" at the end of the PRAYER is addressed to WHOM? To the Prophet / to the Angels / to the next person?
Say (O Muhammad SAW) "Truly, my Lord hath guided me unto a straight path, a right religion, the faith of Abraham the upright, and he was not of the idolaters. Say "CERTAINLY, my SALAAT my sacrifice, my living, and my dying ARE FOR ALLAH, the Lord of the 'Alamin 6161/162
PRAYER is only FOR ALLAH, these are the words of Allah PROCLAIMED by the prophet, but you PRAY for the DEAD, again acting AGAINST the commandment of Allah.
Take thou alms out of their riches; thereby thou wilt cleanse them and purify them; and PRAY thou FOR THEM. Verily thy PRAYERS are a repose / TRANQUIL for them; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. 9103
Did the prophet offered the TRADITIONAL PRAYERS for others?
Could you please explain me HOW THE TRADITIONAL PRAYERS OF THE PROPHET became TRANQUIL for OTHERS?And from the Arabs who believe in Allah and the Last Day and assume as what they spend will bring them NEARER to Allah AND the PRAYERS of the PROPHET. Indeed that will bring nearer to HIM. Soon will Allah admit them in HIS mercy. Indeed Allah is Forgiving Most Merciful. 999
Did the Arabs came near the TRADITIONAL PRAYERS OF THE PROPHET, by spending in the way of Allah?
And if ye fear, then PRAY ON FOOT or RIDING; then when ye are secure, remember Allah in the way He hath taught you which ye ever knew not. 2239
I am sure that the prophet must have DEMONSTRATED and TAUGHT the believers, HOW to PRAY ON FOOT AND RIDING.
Is there any method in any book OR is there any Muslim who can demonstrate the PRAYERS on FOOT and RIDING.
Even the HADITH is silent on this subject. WHY?
THESE ARE SOME OF THE VERSES WHICH CONTRADICTS AND REFUTES THE TRADITIONAL PRAYER AS THE FORM OF PRAYER.
Thanks
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Salam Hafeez Hazi,
First, I would like to say you I appreciate your work on salat here
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2239
even though i find some of your points a bit weird.About the traditional salat, I agree with you on the fact it has been distorted.
Witness should be made on allah only, and should not include Muhammad, nor Ali (like some shia do).I do also agree with you on the fact the basis meaning of salat is commitment ; and on the fact in several occurrences of this word on the quran, salat specifies the commitment to remember Allah.
My stuck point with you is that I think salat in the traditional way (minus some obvious distortions) is a good way to remember Allah, and should be encouraged.
My opinion is not far from Bashir Abid's one, as you can read below,
Peace,
JM
The physical prayer is, in fact, a commitment and a
reminder of our duties and responsibilities towards
God, towards people, and towards ourselves. If we are
unaware of these duties or do not care to fulfill
these then our prayers are nothing but a show of
ignorance or hypocrisy.True worship does not consist in the mere form of
prayer, without the heart and mind being earnestly
applied to seek the realization of the presence of
God, and to understand and do His holy Will. For
prayers it is only right that we should collect our
whole minds and approach God in a spirit of reverence.
In prayers when we say " Thee do we worship and
Thine aid we seek ", it means we are fully committing
ourselves to God. We have full realization of His
presence. We realize in our souls His love and care,
His grace and mercy, and His power and justice. Thus,
when we realize the presence of God, we see both our
shortcomings and His all sufficient power and we seek
His guidance " Show us the straight way ".The traditional salaat ends here. After 'Fateha' we
read some more verses at random, bow, prostrate and
then back to the pavilion. But this is not the whole
Salaat. This is just a commitment and a reminder of
obligations. In this part of the Salaat we sought
God's guidance. Unless, we follow His guidance our
salaat will not be complete.Now the question remain, where could we get God's
guidance ? Undoubtedly, the answer is in the Quran.
So, the true Salaat would be to act upon Quran. May I
ask to our friends who often mock us for the
definition of Salaat, what is wrong with this concept
? Do they want a Salaat without following Quran ?
Salaat without following Quran is nothing but an
hollow act of piety. It has got nothing to do with
devotion to God, service to people, and
self-improvement. A futile and fruitless effort which
will yield, on the day of judgement, only shame and
disgrace. God forbid !http//64.227.163.32/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=29460
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My latest article on the salat=prayer myth
http//mysite.wanadoo-members.co.uk/think-786/disproved_salatequalsprayer.htmPeace,
First, I would like to remind you that I never said (as sunni do) that the only meaning of the word salat is prayer. What I say is that to remind God is part of salat, and since traditional prayer is (or can be) a good way to remind God, it is also part of salat.
Your article is very interesting, but, it left some questions without answer.
- You say the disbeliever had a bond/commitment with the believer.
But, what was exactly this bond ?
Is it possible that the disbeliveers had committed themselves to revert from idolatry ?
Maybe it would be interesting to study what are the quranic rules for making bonds with the disbeliever.
- You write "The only wrongdoing mentioned in the context is the violation of the treaty"
But I see another wrongdoing to be a idolater. Do you not agree ?
Maybe it would be interesting to study what kind of idolatry these people were carrying out.
- Your interpretation of the idolaters bringing fort betterment is the following " This is an insightful understanding for any multi-faith based society. In fact, this is how many Western societies work today, i.e. as long as you live by the law of the land you are allowed to practice your own faith."
Are you sure what you write here is right ?
Do you really think the quranic society is a multi-faith based society ?
Is there another occurrence of this concept in the quran ?
Are you sure the idolaters can bring fort betterment to a society without leaving idolatry ?- You write "Firstly, there is no formal/ceremonial public "oath of Islam" ever mentioned in 'the reading'"
This raise the 2 following questions
- How to become Muslim ?
- What is to be Muslim ?
The verse says one can be Muslim without having faith.
Does it imply that to be Muslim only meant to submit to the prophet and his companions ?Just to help you study go further,
Peace & respect,
JM
- You say the disbeliever had a bond/commitment with the believer.
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peace JM,
- You say the disbeliever had a bond/commitment with the believer.
But, what was exactly this bond ?
the treaty. this is blatantly obvious.
Is it possible that the disbeliveers had committed themselves to revert from idolatry ?
yes its possible, just like they could have committed to breaking the 100m sprint record. The fact is your suggestion is extremely unlikely and not supported by the context whatsoever.
Maybe it would be interesting to study what are the quranic rules for making bonds with the disbeliever.
I agree, any study of 'the reading' would be fruitful.
- You write "The only wrongdoing mentioned in the context is the violation of the treaty"
But I see another wrongdoing to be a idolater. Do you not agree ?
Yes, I agree, but please read the actual words used and the following sign. It is made clear, that is not the reason for the repenting.
Maybe it would be interesting to study what kind of idolatry these people were carrying out.
I agree, any study of 'the reading' would be fruitful.
- Your interpretation of the idolaters bringing fort betterment is the following " This is an insightful understanding for any multi-faith based society. In fact, this is how many Western societies work today, i.e. as long as you live by the law of the land you are allowed to practice your own faith."
Are you sure what you write here is right ?
I have not read anything in 'the reading' to suggest otherwise.
Do you really think the quranic society is a multi-faith based society ?
Yes, 100% sure. I have not read anything in 'the reading' to suggest otherwise. In fact, 'the reading' itself proves it is.
Is there another occurrence of this concept in the quran ?
see above. If you want examples, please do the research yourself. A prime starting point is al HJJ / the conference.
Are you sure the idolaters can bring fort betterment to a society without leaving idolatry ?
Yes. Once again, I have not read otherwise.
- You write "Firstly, there is no formal/ceremonial public "oath of Islam" ever mentioned in 'the reading'"
This raise the 2 following questions
- How to become Muslim ?
- What is to be Muslim ?
Good general question, but if its in relation to weakening the article, that is for those who support salat=prayer to worry over. It poses no problems with my understanding.
The verse says one can be Muslim without having faith.
Does it imply that to be Muslim only meant to submit to the prophet and his companions ?I would consider this a lack of understanding of the term muslim (small m), thus I suggest research is done on the previous 2 questions.
Wakas
- You say the disbeliever had a bond/commitment with the believer.
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The greatest reason for rejecting the traditional prayer is the following verse.
Recite what is sent of the Book by inspiration to thee and establish the PRAYERS. Verily the PRAYER stops from shameful and unjust deeds; and REMEMBRANCE of Allah is the GREATEST without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do 2945
Mark the words of Allah " VERILY / SURELY / CERTAINLY, THE PRAYER STOPS FROM SHAMEFUL AND UNJUST DEEDS"
If any person would have said I would not have believed his words, but when Allah speaks these words to the prophet, then it has to be believed and accepted as a TRUTH.
But the TRUTH is that our traditional prayer fails miserably in this test. There are millions of people (including non Muslims) who are not engaged in this kind of acts, does it imply that they are those who regularly pray. The bitter part of this issue is that the ARABS, among whom I live, are the most involved people in this crime and they are those who pray five times.
So our traditional prayer is unable to stop its performers from shameful and unjust deeds.
Salam .
The traditional prayers stops those who pray sincerely ,from committing unjust and shameful deeds . but the problem is that most people do not even know what they are reciting in their Salat prayers . for example , one of my friends ,19 years old , he doesn?t know the meaning of ?al hamdu lillahi rabbil aalameen? , the first ayah of surah fatiha . he doesn?t perform the salat prayer . he only goes to the masjid and performs physical actions behind the imam . that is the case with most people .So those who are sincere and humble in their prayers , they are prevented from shameful and unjust deeds.
