Contradiction on 4:116 and 39:53
-
peace Grourself, all,
I had a quick look at al quran's usage of GFR and in parts it definitely seems to have a 'forgive' meaning, please see 258, 331 as examples. In some places, 'protect' can fit, and this is one of the dictionary meanings. I would have to do a much more thorough study before concluding anything though.
It is sometimes contrasted to twb, which I feel means repent/turn.
Wakas
-
Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear Brothers and Sisters,?Yastaghfirun? = They help protect like a helmet protects the head.
(Ghufarah = Helmet and armor).Brother if GFR means "Protect" then what means "Hafaza" or "HFZ"? As it is used in 1212
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
-
Hey Tony and whoever this may concern!
Interesting question you raised there...
alam all,
I need your help in harmonizing these verse which look contradictory.
4116 God does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol besides God has strayed far away.
versus
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Peace,
TonyIn order for myself to explain my point of view on what a sin is - I would like to invoke the german word s?nd, that is belived to be the origin of the word. This stands for the water that separates land from an island, just as our spirits are separated from God, not by a specific event or occurance that's "bad" - but simply as a way to measure the extent to which we cannot come to terms with-, and accept (yaslamu) God.
In the matter of shirk - it is something that's blocking our way on this spiritual journey of ours like a big tree crossing the railway, and not like a branch or a bush when passing with the train.
It is clearly that the divine - or God; Allah - forgives all of our sins. It's just that I wouldn't consider shirk as one.
So, what I would like to ask is in a qur'aanic perspective, is shirk even mentioned in the context of "sins"? Please correct me if it is...
-
Salam all,
I need your help in harmonizing these verse which look contradictory.
God does not forgive idol-worship, yet he forgive all sins. I don't buy RK's explanation on this because that his only his own explanation which he inserted in brackets
4116 God does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol besides God has strayed far away.
versus
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Peace,
TonySalaam Tony,
They simply and exactly mean as the translation above that you have listed and in fact reinforce each other. Note that 3953 is directly addressing the living, not the dead. It is talking to the living that can do something about their sinning, namely repent and reform (as repeatedly stated in other verses.) Even if you commit idol worship it will be forgiven by the Most Merciful if the person himself chooses to repent and reform. For as long as we are alive we have time and should never despair of God's forgiveness no matter what. If you read on past verse 53 you will, God willing clearly see this. For example,
3954 You shall obey your Lord, and submit to Him totally, before the retribution overtakes you; then you cannot be helped.
Once dead then the person cannot do anything to help himself. It is all over. He has already made his stance in this world regarding whom he wants to choose as his god. God alone or other gods besides Him (such as his own ego, a dogma, his tribe, other human beings, his own imagination, etc.) His actions in life manifest the person's stance for the person, himself. 4116 is about after we die. God then judges each without the least injustice giving to each exactly as he has chosen for himself, whatever god he has chosen for himself, God as god or others as god (hell.)
Each action shows whether we progress towards choosing God as god or regress in committing idol worship. This may be in subtle ways and you have to dig through layer after layer of consciousness to become truly self aware of what your own true motives have been. For example, you had no choice in reading my post here. How you respond to it determines your stance. You may find my post more truthful than your current understanding yet sour and search for reasons to disagree because of ego. In this case, in action, you have shown to yourself that you worship yourself over what seems truthful to you. You have associated another god with God, in this case your own ego. The sin is not submitting to the truth when it came to you but it all is traceable to idol worship. This of course is only an illustrative example not reality (I do not know about you or your response nor can I ever know.) The point being that these can be very subtle. Plainly committing idol worship is like taking a direct highway to hell. It is all about this one thing to begin with God alone or worshiping other gods next to God (which is the rebellious devil?s position), so if you plainly while knowing commit idol worship and do not repent and reform before dying then you, yourself have chosen other gods beside god and will get exactly as you have chosen in the hereafter. This is the point of this verse and if you read on you will see it reinforced,
4117 They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact they only worship a rebellious devil.
Furthermore the verses before and after 4116 subtly suggest that other sins such as prohibiting food that God has not prohibited as religious practice, may be due to your idol worship, so be careful. For example, the religious leader wants to be god next God thinking he knows better than God.
To be sure, the idea that even for idol worship a person has time to repent and reform and be forgiven for as long as he is alive is stressed in the verses leading to 4116, read 4106 and 4110-?
Peace
-
Peace & Welcome KZD
Great post. I agree and I?d like to supplement with the example of Firun when death stares him in the face and he says he submits but it is too late. We must do, we must act. Profession with the mouth in the absence of action is not accepted by God. It would not be just to do so. Those who have acted cannot be equal to those who haven?t and they cannot be given the same amenities. Again, that would not be just.
-
Peace all,
I believe el-Aziz is onto something here and I have to say that I agree with where he is coming from.
It is clearly that the divine - or God; Allah - forgives all of our sins. It's just that I wouldn't consider shirk as one.
So, what I would like to ask is in a qur'aanic perspective, is shirk even mentioned in the context of "sins"?
My point exactly!! I don't believe that Shirk is described as a sin in The Quran. I see shirk as being entirely different from the other evil acts known as sin.
I believe a sin is an evil act or deed. I believe that there is some sort of action involved with sin whereas shirk is a mindset...an evil way of viewing GOD!! Many sins can be performed due to one's associating others with GOD, but many sins can also be performed based on plain ignorance or lack o proper guidance!! It is because of this that GOD will forgive sins, but will not forgive shirk. Because GOD gives us ample signs and opportunities to realize and recognize that He Is One!! I can see where GOD may dislike a sin such as lying, stealing and cheating and will yet forgive the perpetrator and I can also see where He may be gravely offended that we disrespect Him by not recognizing that He is One.
Also, most sins are crimes against either ourselves (such as eating pork) or crimes against our fellow man (such as stealing and murder). However shirk is a crime and offense AGAINST GOD!!
This is my personal understanding and GOD Knows Best.
Salaam.
-
Salaamun alaikum guys,
In this issue I would caution against neglecting the technical depth of al-quraan. This word 'sin' , in my experience, it has been translated from words like 'ithm', 'dhunb' , 'sharr', 'soo'' and others. Al-quraan's technical depth has seldom been taken seriously by translators.
Another thing to look at is this concept of 'ghafr' , from which 'forgive' has been translated This word is better translated as 'protect' rather than forgive. Please see the ayat below
(8/33)But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon
The words 'could ask for pardon' arent there at all. Rather we have
wa maa kaana Allahu And Allah wasn't
muazzibahum a punisher to them
wa hum while they (are)
yastaghfiroon they ask seeking ghafr.So 'ghafr' isnt forgiveness at all. Its an act leading to aversion of harm.
thanks and peace
-
Peace,
In this issue I would caution against neglecting the technical depth of al-quraan. This word 'sin' , in my experience, it has been translated from words like 'ithm', 'dhunb' , 'sharr', 'soo'' and others. Al-quraan's technical depth has seldom been taken seriously by translators.
Another thing to look at is this concept of 'ghafr' , from which 'forgive' has been translated This word is better translated as 'protect' rather than forgive. Please see the ayat below
(8/33)But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon
The words 'could ask for pardon' arent there at all. Rather we have
wa maa kaana Allahu And Allah wasn't
muazzibahum a punisher to them
wa hum while they (are)
yastaghfiroon they ask seeking ghafr.So 'ghafr' isnt forgiveness at all. Its an act leading to aversion of harm.
thanks and peace
You are so right. The traditional translators have notoriously made all these words synonyms. The true sense and concepts of the ayats are lost along with the very profoundity and precision of the reading.
Ghafara is always to protect in the reading. Again the translators decide that forgive fits better rather than what the God has revealed. We make the choice to seek protection by obeying the commands in the system and following the guidance, actions, and the results of this correct choice will be His promised protection. It is the God's infallible law of cause and effect and we are not arbitrarily "forgiven" by God. We must try to understand the ayats with the word used even if at first we find ourselves confused. This is what is meant by pondering and reflection and study.
