Contradiction on 4:116 and 39:53
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Salam all,
I need your help in harmonizing these verse which look contradictory.
God does not forgive idol-worship, yet he forgive all sins. I don't buy RK's explanation on this because that his only his own explanation which he inserted in brackets
4116 God does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol besides God has strayed far away.
versus
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Peace,
Tony -
Salaams tony,
004.116
YUSUFALI Allah forgiveth not (The sin of) joining other gods with Him; but He forgiveth whom He pleaseth other sins than this one who joins other gods with Allah, Hath strayed far, far away (from the right).So your other ayah doesn't apply to you if you have taken another god as you are no longer the servant of Allah.
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Here Allah is talking to his servents and not to those having taken up other gods then Allah.
Just my undrestanding - there could/might be another explanation though.
Salaams.
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Peace,
Here's my understanding
In 4116 God will NOT protect those who set up associates with Him. They have gone far astray.
In 3956 His servants who commit extravagances against their ?selves? is called ?dhanaba?, a fault or shortcoming. He will protect according to laws or as He pleases . His law of protection is taubah. It is not an arbitrary protection. Ga-fa-ra is protect and not forgive.
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Salam grourself and mz,
Thank you for your answers.
Grourself, you said that "In 4116 God will NOT protect those who set up associates with Him. They have gone far astray."
You used the word "protect" instead of "forgive" and you said gafara really means "protect". Does this say so in an Arabic dictionary? If so, protect from what?
MZ, I would have to disagree with you because of 1993
Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.
Thanks and peace.
Tony
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Salaams tony ,
good explanation by gourself , but i will check that later,I think this is a better translation of the ayah
1992
not all who are in the heavens and the earth but comes (unto) the most Gracious as a slave.Can you be expected to approach Allah any other way?
Even to approach a king you must approach as a subject ? I think,even if you was a president to approach a king you approach like a subject.
But I think we may not have a freewill in the here after and certainly then we will approach as servents ? indeed we will ,All will But the servitude of those who were opposite on earth will not be acceptable ? I think.
Gods Blessings.
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Peace,
I don't see a problem with the two. God does not forgive idol-worship while it is committed by the person. There is nothing saying that the lack of forgiveness is a permanent condition if the person repents.
4110 Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores GOD for forgiveness, will find GOD Forgiving, Most Merciful.
In any case there are two other qualities close to 'ghafur' that more properly address the issue of forgiveness - 'avfun' and 'tawab' - which means pardoner/forgiver and accepter of repentance.
If idol-worship was a permanent blemish then from what the traditional stories say many of the early muslims needn't have bothered accepting God since they were idolaters.
Also Abraham would not even have bothered to pray or invite his father to the right way either if it was futile.
Regards.
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Salaams tony,all,
Tony said
?You used the word "protect" instead of "forgive" and you said gafara really means "protect". Does this say so in an Arabic dictionary? If so, protect from what??Yes it does say so in quranic dictionary.
And protect from what - lets see-
2174
Those who conceal Allah's revelations in the Book, and purchase for them a miserable profit,- they swallow into themselves naught but Fire; Allah will not address them on the Day of Resurrection. Nor purify them Grievous will be their penalty.2175
They are the ones who buy Error in place of Guidance and Torment in place of Forgiveness(PROTECTION?). Ah! what boldness (They show) for the Fire!Protecion from the fire for the sin we have committed!
Being a Shirkist you are in danger ,but changing direction/beliefs/actions to God Alone we gain his protection for being a shirkist(previously) thus gain forgiveness.But if we remain a shirkist we will not be protected (from the fire)and thus not forgiven ? I think.
Finally
I think Gourself ,Truth and me are all saying the same but from different points of view as far as I see.Gods Blessing.
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Peace,
You used the word "protect" instead of "forgive" and you said gafara really means "protect". Does this say so in an Arabic dictionary? If so, protect from what?
Peace,
Many years of following mis-translations and corruptions has made my preference to render a word as it is and not include anyone?s, including my own, sense of the extended meaning. To protect and forgive in English are two different concepts. This idea of forgiveness perpetuates many of the made up rituals the secularists purport. There are of course no rituals or combinations of words that enlist God?s forgiveness. These ideas are un-Quranic and imitate Christianity.
FORGIVE
- To give wholly; to make over without reservation; to resign.
To them that list the world's gay shows I leave, And
to great ones such folly do forgive. --Spenser.- To give up resentment or claim to requital on account of (an offense or wrong); to remit the penalty of; to pardon; -- said in reference to the act forgiven.
And their sins should be forgiven them. --Mark iv.12.
- To cease to feel resentment against, on account of wrong committed; to give up claim to requital from or retribution upon (an offender); to absolve; to pardon; -- said of the person offending.
Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do--Luke xxiii.34.
Note Sometimes both the person and the offense follow as objects of the verb, sometimes one and sometimes the other being the indirect object.
Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.'' --Matt. vi. 12.Be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.'' --Matt. ix. 2.Syn See {excuse}.
PROTECT
vb. n. {Protecting}.] [L. protectus, p. p. of protegere, literally, to cover in front; pro before + tegere to cover.To cover or shield from danger or injury; to defend; to guard; to preserve in safety; as, a father protects his children.
Syn To guard; shield; preserve. See {Defend}.
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peace Grourself, all,
I had a quick look at al quran's usage of GFR and in parts it definitely seems to have a 'forgive' meaning, please see 258, 331 as examples. In some places, 'protect' can fit, and this is one of the dictionary meanings. I would have to do a much more thorough study before concluding anything though.
It is sometimes contrasted to twb, which I feel means repent/turn.
Wakas
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Salaamun Alaikum,
Dear Brothers and Sisters,?Yastaghfirun? = They help protect like a helmet protects the head.
(Ghufarah = Helmet and armor).Brother if GFR means "Protect" then what means "Hafaza" or "HFZ"? As it is used in 1212
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth
Regards,
Mohammed Mahtab Khan
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Hey Tony and whoever this may concern!
Interesting question you raised there...
alam all,
I need your help in harmonizing these verse which look contradictory.
4116 God does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol besides God has strayed far away.
versus
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Peace,
TonyIn order for myself to explain my point of view on what a sin is - I would like to invoke the german word s?nd, that is belived to be the origin of the word. This stands for the water that separates land from an island, just as our spirits are separated from God, not by a specific event or occurance that's "bad" - but simply as a way to measure the extent to which we cannot come to terms with-, and accept (yaslamu) God.
In the matter of shirk - it is something that's blocking our way on this spiritual journey of ours like a big tree crossing the railway, and not like a branch or a bush when passing with the train.
It is clearly that the divine - or God; Allah - forgives all of our sins. It's just that I wouldn't consider shirk as one.
So, what I would like to ask is in a qur'aanic perspective, is shirk even mentioned in the context of "sins"? Please correct me if it is...
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Salam all,
I need your help in harmonizing these verse which look contradictory.
God does not forgive idol-worship, yet he forgive all sins. I don't buy RK's explanation on this because that his only his own explanation which he inserted in brackets
4116 God does not forgive idol worship (if maintained until death), and He forgives lesser offenses for whomever He wills. Anyone who idolizes any idol besides God has strayed far away.
versus
3953 Proclaim "O My servants who exceeded the limits, never despair of God's mercy. For God forgives all sins. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful."
Peace,
TonySalaam Tony,
They simply and exactly mean as the translation above that you have listed and in fact reinforce each other. Note that 3953 is directly addressing the living, not the dead. It is talking to the living that can do something about their sinning, namely repent and reform (as repeatedly stated in other verses.) Even if you commit idol worship it will be forgiven by the Most Merciful if the person himself chooses to repent and reform. For as long as we are alive we have time and should never despair of God's forgiveness no matter what. If you read on past verse 53 you will, God willing clearly see this. For example,
3954 You shall obey your Lord, and submit to Him totally, before the retribution overtakes you; then you cannot be helped.
Once dead then the person cannot do anything to help himself. It is all over. He has already made his stance in this world regarding whom he wants to choose as his god. God alone or other gods besides Him (such as his own ego, a dogma, his tribe, other human beings, his own imagination, etc.) His actions in life manifest the person's stance for the person, himself. 4116 is about after we die. God then judges each without the least injustice giving to each exactly as he has chosen for himself, whatever god he has chosen for himself, God as god or others as god (hell.)
Each action shows whether we progress towards choosing God as god or regress in committing idol worship. This may be in subtle ways and you have to dig through layer after layer of consciousness to become truly self aware of what your own true motives have been. For example, you had no choice in reading my post here. How you respond to it determines your stance. You may find my post more truthful than your current understanding yet sour and search for reasons to disagree because of ego. In this case, in action, you have shown to yourself that you worship yourself over what seems truthful to you. You have associated another god with God, in this case your own ego. The sin is not submitting to the truth when it came to you but it all is traceable to idol worship. This of course is only an illustrative example not reality (I do not know about you or your response nor can I ever know.) The point being that these can be very subtle. Plainly committing idol worship is like taking a direct highway to hell. It is all about this one thing to begin with God alone or worshiping other gods next to God (which is the rebellious devil?s position), so if you plainly while knowing commit idol worship and do not repent and reform before dying then you, yourself have chosen other gods beside god and will get exactly as you have chosen in the hereafter. This is the point of this verse and if you read on you will see it reinforced,
4117 They even worship female gods besides Him; as a matter of fact they only worship a rebellious devil.
Furthermore the verses before and after 4116 subtly suggest that other sins such as prohibiting food that God has not prohibited as religious practice, may be due to your idol worship, so be careful. For example, the religious leader wants to be god next God thinking he knows better than God.
To be sure, the idea that even for idol worship a person has time to repent and reform and be forgiven for as long as he is alive is stressed in the verses leading to 4116, read 4106 and 4110-?
Peace
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Peace & Welcome KZD
Great post. I agree and I?d like to supplement with the example of Firun when death stares him in the face and he says he submits but it is too late. We must do, we must act. Profession with the mouth in the absence of action is not accepted by God. It would not be just to do so. Those who have acted cannot be equal to those who haven?t and they cannot be given the same amenities. Again, that would not be just.
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Peace all,
I believe el-Aziz is onto something here and I have to say that I agree with where he is coming from.
It is clearly that the divine - or God; Allah - forgives all of our sins. It's just that I wouldn't consider shirk as one.
So, what I would like to ask is in a qur'aanic perspective, is shirk even mentioned in the context of "sins"?
My point exactly!! I don't believe that Shirk is described as a sin in The Quran. I see shirk as being entirely different from the other evil acts known as sin.
I believe a sin is an evil act or deed. I believe that there is some sort of action involved with sin whereas shirk is a mindset...an evil way of viewing GOD!! Many sins can be performed due to one's associating others with GOD, but many sins can also be performed based on plain ignorance or lack o proper guidance!! It is because of this that GOD will forgive sins, but will not forgive shirk. Because GOD gives us ample signs and opportunities to realize and recognize that He Is One!! I can see where GOD may dislike a sin such as lying, stealing and cheating and will yet forgive the perpetrator and I can also see where He may be gravely offended that we disrespect Him by not recognizing that He is One.
Also, most sins are crimes against either ourselves (such as eating pork) or crimes against our fellow man (such as stealing and murder). However shirk is a crime and offense AGAINST GOD!!
This is my personal understanding and GOD Knows Best.
Salaam.
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Salaamun alaikum guys,
In this issue I would caution against neglecting the technical depth of al-quraan. This word 'sin' , in my experience, it has been translated from words like 'ithm', 'dhunb' , 'sharr', 'soo'' and others. Al-quraan's technical depth has seldom been taken seriously by translators.
Another thing to look at is this concept of 'ghafr' , from which 'forgive' has been translated This word is better translated as 'protect' rather than forgive. Please see the ayat below
(8/33)But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon
The words 'could ask for pardon' arent there at all. Rather we have
wa maa kaana Allahu And Allah wasn't
muazzibahum a punisher to them
wa hum while they (are)
yastaghfiroon they ask seeking ghafr.So 'ghafr' isnt forgiveness at all. Its an act leading to aversion of harm.
thanks and peace
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Peace,
In this issue I would caution against neglecting the technical depth of al-quraan. This word 'sin' , in my experience, it has been translated from words like 'ithm', 'dhunb' , 'sharr', 'soo'' and others. Al-quraan's technical depth has seldom been taken seriously by translators.
Another thing to look at is this concept of 'ghafr' , from which 'forgive' has been translated This word is better translated as 'protect' rather than forgive. Please see the ayat below
(8/33)But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon
The words 'could ask for pardon' arent there at all. Rather we have
wa maa kaana Allahu And Allah wasn't
muazzibahum a punisher to them
wa hum while they (are)
yastaghfiroon they ask seeking ghafr.So 'ghafr' isnt forgiveness at all. Its an act leading to aversion of harm.
thanks and peace
You are so right. The traditional translators have notoriously made all these words synonyms. The true sense and concepts of the ayats are lost along with the very profoundity and precision of the reading.
Ghafara is always to protect in the reading. Again the translators decide that forgive fits better rather than what the God has revealed. We make the choice to seek protection by obeying the commands in the system and following the guidance, actions, and the results of this correct choice will be His promised protection. It is the God's infallible law of cause and effect and we are not arbitrarily "forgiven" by God. We must try to understand the ayats with the word used even if at first we find ourselves confused. This is what is meant by pondering and reflection and study.
