Death Penalty for Murders

unknownuser

Biological urge? I hope you are not saying that we base morality on biological urges? As I?m sure you are aware, many mystical writings try hard to separate the soul from the body through asceticism.

Come on David, there is biological instinct, there is a biological imperative for self-preservation when attacked. You can't do nothing about it. It is an innate reaction. It is an impulse as opposed to sitting down and saying murderer should be murdered for his murder. And yes life is sacred and therefore as a society it either uphold this principle or it does not. Killing in self-defense is tragic because you did not intend to kill...

Regards,

unknownuser

Hello Saladin,

God is beyond reason , so why are u trying in vain to use your REASON to understand God ?

Ah Saladin. Now you come to the point. Reason is very important. REASON takes you to the limits of human undertanding and no more. But God has given us the gift of INTUITION and IMAGINATION. Intuition and imaginations allows us to see beyond REASON and LOGIC and grasp some understanding of the God who is beyond language and reason. This is the insight that all the great seers, sages, prophets and mystics have arrived at independently...

and where does the koran say that God is beyond language ?

Our REASON is tied to our language. Read Heidegger, Saladin.

the best way to teach humans is by language

That is true. But to understand God reason is not enough because God is beyond reason. Reason will take you so far but at the final encounter with the Divine, REASON is "trascended".

so u agree that Koran was revealed to Muhammad , but Muhammad might have misinterpreted it ?

I believe that Muhammad did encounter the Divine but he had no choice but interpret his encounter with the limited capabilities of language of his day. But Language does not justice to the reality he was trying to convey. I would not say misinterpretation but rather language is inadequate to describe the wordless reality that is God...

Regards,

Ali_Omar

Hi,

I have skimmed through the posts under this thread and there is one serious point missing. Without this we can not judge.

God is very impersonal of nature, and the system God has given us to live by, is based on the best possible, balanced, way for all creatures.
Criminal acts are not punished as a revenge towards the perpetrator, it?s first and foremost function, is to rectify a situation caused by an act that has damaged anyone and/or anything.

In the case of theft, the thief is responsible towards the sufferer to replace what he/she has stolen, and it may be that the community has to be protected against the perpetrator.

In case somebody, unlawfully, takes a life of a human being, there are a number of circumstances to be taken into consideration in order to minimize the problem this has created for individuals, a community or part of a community.

First of all, the murderer has a debt with God, which he can never settle. He/she has taken away something sacred. The murdered person can not be brought back to life; therefore total rectification is out of the question. It does not matter what the perpetrator does for the rest of his/her life, he/she can not fully compensate for taking a human life.

Next, who was at loss due to the act and how to make good this loss?

If the murdered person was a breadwinner that one or more individuals relied on, either personally, as a group, or as a part of a community, the economic loss may be demanded compensated, as per a common evaluation.

The emotional loss, what to do? In its extreme there may be a demand of killing the murderer. And it may also be justified.
But there is one question that is taken far too lightly by courts where death penalty is exercised, who is going to execute the sentence?
The only person who may rightfully do this is the person having the right to demand the penalty.
To have a professional executioner is not according to God. You can not lawfully take a human life by proxy.

The same goes for medical personnel in the case of so called mercy-killing, they are not allowed to do that, only person(s) directly affected. They have to bear the consequences of their decision and their action.
Here is another question ?Who has the right to decide?? Husband/wife, mother, father, siblings, children etc.

There are ?thousand and one? questions to be answered in each individual case, and therefore impossible to set up absolute rules as per the questions asked in this thread.
There may also be people behind the person performing the physical act of killing a human being, who are to be counted in as responsible for the act.
We have seen many cases of humans killing humans in many areas of the World, where the ones executing the murders are brainwashed by others into believing they are doing what is right. The brain ?guiding the weapon? may be far away from the actual scene of crime. How to judge in such a case? Who is the actual killer?

First and foremost, we should strive to bring a situation back towards as much balance as possible. This is what God?s system is telling us, not to seek revenge but to make the existence for everything, and every one, best possible.
Or, in other words, keep the best possible balance.

Regds

Ali Omar

shamsul-arefin

If the whole system was developed to serve and save souls than I dont see the logic behind any rule to kill another soul. One killing cant justify another killing because they both are taking souls which no humans can create.

peace

Ali_Omar

Hi shamsul-arefin,

I believe you are absolutely right; killing of one human can not justify killing of another human.
Therefore God advise us to be careful in the matter of taking a life, even in the event that someone, ?the heir?, is given the right, there are limits to observe.
It is also told that one who save a life, it is as though he saved the whole of humanity.
As I understand, it is under very special circumstances only, that it may not be punishable to take another life.

Regds

Ali Omar

shamsul-arefin

Hi shamsul-arefin,

I believe you are absolutely right; killing of one human can not justify killing of another human.
Therefore God advise us to be careful in the matter of taking a life, even in the event that someone, ?the heir?, is given the right, there are limits to observe.
It is also told that one who save a life, it is as though he saved the whole of humanity.
As I understand, it is under very special circumstances only, that it may not be punishable to take another life.

Regds

Ali Omar

dear bro...

thanks for ur reply......

in my opinion......if anyone gets killed during self diffence than it is justifiable. But killing a soul with the most quite, stable(the court) mind is something I cant accept.

Elena

Peace,

though you all probably know, and if anyone is interested, amnesty international offers some ways to help against death penalty, not only by donating funds but also by doing voluntary works, online voluntary works too, writing letters, adding signatures in some campaigns. There are a lot of links, http//web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-index-eng http//web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-actnow-eng are two of them. The campaigns to avoid executing men and women condemned to be stoned by the sariah in some countries are known, but there are a lot of other cases in different countries.

marie

Peace Ali Omar,

It does not matter what the perpetrator does for the rest of his/her life, he/she can not fully compensate for taking a human life.

Exact.

The only person who may rightfully do this is the person having the right to demand the penalty.
To have a professional executioner is not according to God. You can not lawfully take a human life by proxy.

Good point.

It will dissuade the victim's family.

Andya_Primanda

Peace,

though you all probably know, and if anyone is interested, amnesty international offers some ways to help against death penalty, not only by donating funds but also by doing voluntary works, online voluntary works too, writing letters, adding signatures in some campaigns. There are a lot of links, http//web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-index-eng http//web.amnesty.org/pages/deathpenalty-actnow-eng are two of them. The campaigns to avoid executing men and women condemned to be stoned by the sariah in some countries are known, but there are a lot of other cases in different countries.

Peace Elena,

I don't know if us Free-minds people have a united view on this. LoteTree and some others might agree for getting rid of the death penalty, while Saladin and others (myself included) is pro death penalty.

unknownuser

I don't know if us Free-minds people have a united view on this. LoteTree and some others might agree for getting rid of the death penalty, while Saladin and others (myself included) is pro death penalty.

Interesting Andya. I thought all scientist are anti-death penalty? And what is your reason behind your pro-death penalty stance?

Regards,

Andya_Primanda

Interesting Andya. I thought all scientist are anti-death penalty? And what is your reason behind your pro-death penalty stance?

Regards,

Well, don't make a stereotype out of scientists. Scientists are not a homogenous crowd. And they kill little animals all the time.

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

Elena

Peace,
Andya Primanda wrote

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

I was in the brink of asking that recently, if the reason of defending the death penalty was that it appears in the quran.
I see the order of events like follows (correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am)

1 you (not only Andya, whoever) are muslim because of having being born in a muslim family or through study or by conversion
2 you accept everything appears in the version and/or translation you regard as authentic of the quran (by 'version' I am referring to the versions dicussed in "Which is the Real Quran" thread)
3 when something that appears in it is hard to believe or accept, you believe it directly anyway, or you look for all ways to justify the possible reasons behind it.

Ali_Omar

Hi Elena,

Just a comment

Everybody is borne a Muslim we have no choice.
You don?t accept every word the way it is written; you accept the message behind the words in light of how the Qur?an should be understood.
When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.

Regds

Ali Omar

Andya_Primanda

I was in the brink of asking that recently, if the reason of defending the death penalty was that it appears in the quran.
I see the order of events like follows (correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am)

1 you (not only Andya, whoever) are muslim because of having being born in a muslim family or through study or by conversion
2 you accept everything appears in the version and/or translation you regard as authentic of the quran (by 'version' I am referring to the versions dicussed in "Which is the Real Quran" thread)
3 when something that appears in it is hard to believe or accept, you believe it directly anyway, or you look for all ways to justify the possible reasons behind it.

Peace Elena,

1 I was born in a Muslim family.

2 Correct, but not from 'translations', from the original Arabic text. But please show me if the qisas verses were somehow 'variable' in the 'versions' you mentioned.

3 On some cases, yes. But I'm not clear as why you ask this.

unknownuser

Well, don't make a stereotype out of scientists. Scientists are not a homogenous crowd. And they kill little animals all the time.

I did not mean to stereotype scientists, it just that all the scientist I know of are against the death penalty hence my question. And I did not imply that all scientist are saints. But we are talking about death penalty on free willed human individuals as oppose to killing little animals in laboratory experiments...

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

Ok. It is a matter of belief for you.

If you were to think outside the quran - would you still be Pro-death Penalty?

Regards,

Andya_Primanda

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

Ok. It is a matter of belief for you.

If you were to think outside the quran - would you still be Pro-death Penalty?

Regards,

Don't know.

But maybe I'll still be pro-death sentence if it comes to major homicide cases, ie. the terrorists that plan the Bali/Aus. Embassy/Madrid/Istanbul bomb. And also for corruption (like they do in China and Vietnam) and drug-related crimes (like they hang drug dealers and carriers in Singapore). Don't ask me why because I haven't thought why I would have that opinion. Probably because of my Indonesian background.

Elena

Peace,

Hi Elena,
Hi,

When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.
That assertion offered as evidence suggests me a very different thing, coercive persuasion, a mind control technique to convince, but it is just my opinion. I understand you believe that, I am not arguing.

I understand the second point.

The first one is hard for me, how could a new born be muslim, how could he think about that if being muslim comes from reasoning?

Thanks for the comment.

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

Elena

Peace Andya Primanda,

2 Correct, but not from 'translations', from the original Arabic text. But please show me if the qisas verses were somehow 'variable' in the 'versions' you mentioned.
I don't know. I knew about Hafs and Warsh versions when I read that topic.

3 On some cases, yes. But I'm not clear as why you ask this.
To know if the people who are pro-death penalty are like that because of the quran.

Let me repeat this I said above

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to know and understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

unknownuser

Peace,

Hi Elena,
Hi,

When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.
That assertion offered as evidence suggests me a very different thing, coercive persuasion, a mind control technique to convince, but it is just my opinion. I understand you believe that, I am not arguing.

I understand the second point.

The first one is hard for me, how could a new born be muslim, how could he think about that if being muslim comes from reasoning?

Thanks for the comment.

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

Everybody is born a Muslim we have no choice.

I find it hard to accept it too and so I disaggree with this. We are not born mulsims. It is unfair to say that. We are born as human beings. God and Religon is imposed on us by our parents, we have no choice in that matter until we are capable of taking charge of our own life.

To me it seems that it is an innate "Islamic" thinking that we are all born muslim. It seems to be on the lips of all muslims. And so the thinking goes if you are not muslim then you either knowingly reject being muslim or you are ignorant of being muslim. And if you are ignorant of being muslim then you can be persuaded being a muslim! I think it is time that we get this idea that we are born with some religious identity out of our heads and accept that we are born as human beings. Let individuals use their own God-given reason, intuition and imaginations to come to their own understanding of God and religion...

I know this post is off topic but I thought I need to added it here...

Regards,

TAJ

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!