Death Penalty for Murders

Ali_Omar

Hi Elena,

Just a comment

Everybody is borne a Muslim we have no choice.
You don?t accept every word the way it is written; you accept the message behind the words in light of how the Qur?an should be understood.
When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.

Regds

Ali Omar

Andya_Primanda

I was in the brink of asking that recently, if the reason of defending the death penalty was that it appears in the quran.
I see the order of events like follows (correct me if I am wrong, and I hope I am)

1 you (not only Andya, whoever) are muslim because of having being born in a muslim family or through study or by conversion
2 you accept everything appears in the version and/or translation you regard as authentic of the quran (by 'version' I am referring to the versions dicussed in "Which is the Real Quran" thread)
3 when something that appears in it is hard to believe or accept, you believe it directly anyway, or you look for all ways to justify the possible reasons behind it.

Peace Elena,

1 I was born in a Muslim family.

2 Correct, but not from 'translations', from the original Arabic text. But please show me if the qisas verses were somehow 'variable' in the 'versions' you mentioned.

3 On some cases, yes. But I'm not clear as why you ask this.

unknownuser

Well, don't make a stereotype out of scientists. Scientists are not a homogenous crowd. And they kill little animals all the time.

I did not mean to stereotype scientists, it just that all the scientist I know of are against the death penalty hence my question. And I did not imply that all scientist are saints. But we are talking about death penalty on free willed human individuals as oppose to killing little animals in laboratory experiments...

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

Ok. It is a matter of belief for you.

If you were to think outside the quran - would you still be Pro-death Penalty?

Regards,

Andya_Primanda

My pro-death stance comes from the qisas verses in the Qur'an.

Ok. It is a matter of belief for you.

If you were to think outside the quran - would you still be Pro-death Penalty?

Regards,

Don't know.

But maybe I'll still be pro-death sentence if it comes to major homicide cases, ie. the terrorists that plan the Bali/Aus. Embassy/Madrid/Istanbul bomb. And also for corruption (like they do in China and Vietnam) and drug-related crimes (like they hang drug dealers and carriers in Singapore). Don't ask me why because I haven't thought why I would have that opinion. Probably because of my Indonesian background.

Elena

Peace,

Hi Elena,
Hi,

When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.
That assertion offered as evidence suggests me a very different thing, coercive persuasion, a mind control technique to convince, but it is just my opinion. I understand you believe that, I am not arguing.

I understand the second point.

The first one is hard for me, how could a new born be muslim, how could he think about that if being muslim comes from reasoning?

Thanks for the comment.

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

Elena

Peace Andya Primanda,

2 Correct, but not from 'translations', from the original Arabic text. But please show me if the qisas verses were somehow 'variable' in the 'versions' you mentioned.
I don't know. I knew about Hafs and Warsh versions when I read that topic.

3 On some cases, yes. But I'm not clear as why you ask this.
To know if the people who are pro-death penalty are like that because of the quran.

Let me repeat this I said above

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to know and understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

unknownuser

Peace,

Hi Elena,
Hi,

When something appears that is hard to believe or accept, you have not understood it.
That assertion offered as evidence suggests me a very different thing, coercive persuasion, a mind control technique to convince, but it is just my opinion. I understand you believe that, I am not arguing.

I understand the second point.

The first one is hard for me, how could a new born be muslim, how could he think about that if being muslim comes from reasoning?

Thanks for the comment.

The reason of my questions in this topic and in others is to understand Islam and muslims, especially from the moment I found this site and I knew about the relation between reasoning-knowledge-intelligence and islamic belief. (I think I should write this as my signature to not confuse anybody)

Everybody is born a Muslim we have no choice.

I find it hard to accept it too and so I disaggree with this. We are not born mulsims. It is unfair to say that. We are born as human beings. God and Religon is imposed on us by our parents, we have no choice in that matter until we are capable of taking charge of our own life.

To me it seems that it is an innate "Islamic" thinking that we are all born muslim. It seems to be on the lips of all muslims. And so the thinking goes if you are not muslim then you either knowingly reject being muslim or you are ignorant of being muslim. And if you are ignorant of being muslim then you can be persuaded being a muslim! I think it is time that we get this idea that we are born with some religious identity out of our heads and accept that we are born as human beings. Let individuals use their own God-given reason, intuition and imaginations to come to their own understanding of God and religion...

I know this post is off topic but I thought I need to added it here...

Regards,

TAJ

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!

unknownuser

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!

Those are such noble sentiments. One can't fail to agree with it. But these are the "current" meanings of Muslim

In Arabic muslim means - one who surrenders, active participle of ?aslama, to surrender

Muslim - A believer in or adherent of Islam.

Just like Christian means - a believer in Christ
Just like Buddhist means - a believer in the teachings of Buddah

So general meaning of Muslim is someone who adhers to Islam and that is why people find it unfair to be labelled that we are born Muslim...

Regards,

Elena

Peace,

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!

Then, Taj, you are not muslim anymore since you have received social, perental, etc, influences?

TAJ

Salaams Elena, All

Peace,

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!

Then, Taj, you are not muslim anymore since you have received social, perental, etc, influences?

No I am not. I am in the purifying process = Islam. I hope to become a muslim one day even if at the last moment of my life!

Elena

Salaams Elena, All

Peace,
Peace,

Salaams All,

The word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. And that is exactly how we are all born. We are all born with a clear, clean page until our parents (and others) take over when they sense that we are beginning to understand things, etc.
People who don?t know the meaning of the word ?muslim? are usually sensitive to that description because they think it is a name of a religion, but once they know the meaning they would all agree!

Then, Taj, you are not muslim anymore since you have received social, perental, etc, influences?

No I am not. I am in the purifying process = Islam. I hope to become a muslim one day even if at the last moment of my life!

What's the meaning now of the word muslim is this last message, Taj?

TAJ

The same meaning I mentioned earlier, Elena.

Elena

Peace,

Taj, it seems I didn't say 'peace' at the beggining of that last reply. Do you see two 'peace' together inside the quote? One of them was the one which belongs to that reply, I mean, I didn't forget it, I just confused the line.

Muslim = 'free from any influence' then. That must be similar to Nirvana or total peace or something similar, I suppose.

I think I should draw a list with every meaning, not only of this word but of all of words dicussed at FM, like salat, God, hadith, zacat, process, quran, Al Kitab, parable, miracle, Muhammad, Ahmad, jins, signs, and more. I would love to have an exam about Islam as a subject.

TAJ

Salaams Elena, All

Peace,

Taj, it seems I didn't say 'peace' at the beggining of that last reply. Do you see two 'peace' together inside the quote? One of them was the one which belongs to that reply, I mean, I didn't forget it, I just confused the line.
Don't worry about the Peace, Elena. That is ok. I know that you mean nothing but peace, absolutely. I rushed my reply without even writing Salaams but I think that it is ok really. We all here mean peace=salaam to each other.

Muslim = 'free from any influence' then. That must be similar to Nirvana or total peace or something similar, I suppose.
I don?t know what the word ?Nirvana? means although I heard it thousands times! But I know that the word 'muslim' means free from any influence or any social, parental, dictation or baggage, materialism, etc. We are all born with a clear, clean page, in other words we are all born sinless. And I personally want to die as sinless as the day I was born.
So when somebody tells you that we are all born muslims they basically mean that we are all born sinless, that is how Allah creates us, and this innocence would stay with us as long as we are too young or too mentally retarded to comprehend.

I think I should draw a list with every meaning, not only of this word but of all of words dicussed at FM, like salat, God, hadith, zacat, process, quran, Al Kitab, parable, miracle, Muhammad, Ahmad, jins, signs, and more. I would love to be tested about Islam as a subject.
You want to be tested about Islam as a subject!? But what is here is even less than a drop of oceans!

Andya_Primanda

People, let's not get off-topic by discussing what it means to be called a Muslim here, or else I will have to drop a sentence to you all from the topic of this thread, Death Penalty. D Just kidding. Please stay on topic and take the spin-off discussions into another thread. Thanks.