The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?
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I believe that God, All-Knowing as God is, knows every outcome of every branch we would take.
I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...
Regards,
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I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...
Regards,
Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!
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Khi- Salam. Since GOD is all knowing n is independant of time He obviously knows which branches we wld choose. GOD Bless!
If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?
Regards,
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If he does then perhaps our choices are meaningless. One can follow the argument to the begining. If God knew I was destined for hell why create me in the first place? If God knowingly created me for hell, then did I ulitmately have a choice?
Khi- Salam. Thts simply coz U DO NOT KNOW UR CHOICE AS YET. If now on the day of judgement GOD just puts u in hell coz He knew ur choices but never let u carry them out in life u cld compalin 'Oh GOD y did u put me in hell when i did nothing wrong'. So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!
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So ur existance here is 2 prove it 2 U tht ur righteous or not. GOD DOESNT NEED 2 KNOW UR CHOICES, U DO! N yes the choice is still urs. GOD Bless!
But that does not answer my question does it? Why create me if God knew I was "destined" for hell? There is no need for the creation is it? There is no need for me to exist at all and there would be no need to complain at all because I would not have existed...
Regards,
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Salaamun alaikum all,
I believe that Allah is Just and Merciful and All Knowledgeable. I also believe that we have free will to choose our actions. Now if Allah already knew that some humans would end up in Hell before He created them and they will eternally remain in Hell then that would imply an unmerciful God. So logically only 3 things are possible
- He chose not to know the outcome before He created.....this again implies an unmerciful God as explained below
- He knows all the possible outcomes but does not know exactly which branch we will choose......this implies a God that is not all knowing.
- He knows our outcome and then in the end all those who go to Hell will suffer exactly equal to what their sins were and then the suffering will end......this does not contradict with The God being Just, Merciful, and All Knowing with us still having free will to choose our actions.
Possibility number one is flawed and not supported by any evidence from Al-Quran. If The God chose not to know the outcome before He created us then after He created us He would know what our outcome would be and that some humans would end up in Hell forever and that again makes Him unmerciful unless He terminated the evil ones before they performed their actions.
Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.
The following ayat seem to imply that Allah does not know exactly what we will choose to do
3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to know those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.but then there is an apparent contradiction with the following ayat which clearly say that Allah knows our present and future
2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
20108 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge.
2129 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
2275 He knows their present and their future. And to God all matters are returned.One actual example of Him knowing the future is
1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.One way the above two sets of ayat can be reconciled is that even though He knows our future, meaning all the possible future outcomes, all the actions have not actually happened yet and Allah wants to know with absolute certainty what action we will choose to do. But that still leaves us with some imperfection in Allah's attribute of All Knowledgeable. May be that is how it is, that absolute certain knowledge of random events is impossible and that there are different possible time lines that exist and no one can know which time line will be the actual time line that will be played out until it is actually played out. The Abu-Lahab example is after he had already made his choice. Maybe Allah does not know with absolute certainty what choice we will make but He does know with absolute certainty if we will change our decision once we have made it.
For the third possibility please see Edip Yuksel's enlightening article at the following link
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm
Here Edip shows the difference between eternal Hell and Hell eternally !! and proves that Hell is not eternal.
In the end only Allah knows !!!
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace LT,
I understand God knows all the OUTCOMES of every branch, but does he know which branches WE will choose? This is different from knowing all outcomes of the branches I think...
According to my study of the great reading, choices are made in the present not in the future. Therefore the issue of "will choose" is not meaningful. Relative to the present, the future is the domain of outcomes. On a universal level, which future outcome materializes after one instant is the result of the choices made by every creature in the universe in the present instant. We all have a choice and we all should serve The God.
From the great reading we know that The God guides us (in the present) to which branch to choose or He doesn't guide us (in the present) to which branch to choose. The God's decision to guide or not guide is not predestined. So the question is what causes us to make a correct choice. Think about it, what would allow you to always make the correct choice?
Of course the answer is knowing the future. If you knew all the future outcomes then you would select the best one and avoid the choices leading to bad ones. For example, you would select the winning lottery ticket. The reason why we don't always make the right choices is becasue we are ignorant of the future.
Ultimately for us, all future outcomes converge to either heaven or hell. If one can see the hidden future and see himself in hell then he would not make the choices that got him there. Instead, he would make the choices that result in the outcome of heaven.
The God created us to serve him. This is the purpose that The God intended for us. Therefore, The God's purpose for our creation entails that we make the right choices. As we saw, the reason why we make the incorrect choices is our ignorance. If we had all the information then we would always make the correct choice and we would be in sync with the purpose for which The God created us.
So the question is not about The God's knowledge, which is absolute. The paradox occurs as a result of our own ignorance. This is why the human is described as ignorant for accepting the trust. Fulfilling the trust is about overcoming our ignorance of the future through trust in The God.
I hope this helps.
Peace and all best wishes,
Ayman
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But that does not answer my question does it? Why create me if God knew I was "destined" for hell? There is no need for the creation is it? There is no need for me to exist at all and there would be no need to complain at all because I would not have existed...
Regards,
Khi- As i said only if ur created will u knowthe path which ull choose. If ur just thrown into Hell without being given a chance of recognizing urself u wld have every riight 2 compiain n GOD is just. As far as 2 y does GOD create anything at all i can only give u the answer from Quran i.e. 2 worship/serve Him. Also u shld understand tht GOD is not time bound n it is like Hes already seen all the events. GOD Bless!
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As far as 2 y does GOD create anything at all i can only give u the answer from Quran i.e. 2 worship/serve Him.
What's the point of knowingly creating individuals that do not serve him?
Regards,
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What's the point of knowingly creating individuals that do not serve him?
Regards,
What's the point of trying to make the God subject to such "logical" thinking?
So that we may develop some understanding of what God is?
Regards,
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An omniscient god does not allow for free will.
You have grasped what "omniscient" means! Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...
It's not free will but free choice and there is no problem in reconciling that with an ominiscient God...now, God is all knowing...His knowledge is absolute/complete...if the problem is how can a 'merciful' God allow us to have choices in which we choose all by ourselves the wrong path...then maybe we need to discuss that and not reject God's omniscience which is according to the scripture absolute...He is the knower of everything...that includes, er, everything...
Nadia
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Hello Nadia,
Peace Lotetree,
Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...
It's not free will but free choice and there is no problem in reconciling that with an ominiscient God...now, God is all knowing...His knowledge is absolute/complete...if the problem is how can a 'merciful' God allow us to have choices in which we choose all by ourselves the wrong path...then maybe we need to discuss that and not reject God's omniscience which is according to the scripture absolute...He is the knower of everything...that includes, er, everything...
Nadia
Can you please clarify the difference between Free Will and Free Choice?
Thanks.
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=27878&highlight=#27878
Brother Ayman explained it (better than i can)
Firstly, you are confusing "free-will" and "free-choice". No human has "free-will". You cannot simply freely will something and it happens. For example, you can't will to be the richest man in the world and... boom it happens. So "free-will" is not achievable in this low-life. What we have is free choice. Everyday we are faced with choices. We can choose amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Hence, what we are really discussing is "free choice" amongst a limited number of alternatives.
Nadia
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Salaamun alaikum all,
So the question is not about The God's knowledge, which is absolute. The paradox occurs as a result of our own ignorance. This is why the human is described as ignorant for accepting the trust. Fulfilling the trust is about overcoming our ignorance of the future through trust in The God.
I think brother Ayman's response contains the answer. Allah is All Knowing, Just, and Merciful. We cannot blame him for creating humans knowing some of them will end up in Hell. We can only blame Him if He had not provided us with the knowledge essential to making the right choices. We can only blame our ignorance or the lack of trust in Allah.
OUR FIRST BLUNDER
First of all we were not even supposed to be on Earth. We were created to serve Allah and we were supposed to remain in Heaven. Then out of our choice to remain ignorant and not trust Allah we committed a grave sin.
After our creation we were living in Heaven peacefully IN OUR FIRST LIFE and our Lord used to communicate with us. The only thing forbidden was to "eat from the tree" and Allah gave us fair warning
7173 And your Lord took for the children of Adam from their backs, their progeny; and He made them witness over themselves "Am I not your Lord?" They said "Yes, we bear witness." Thus you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection that you were unaware of this.
5666 You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."Everything was fine until Iblis deceived us and we disobeyed Allah and ate from the tree with our own free choice. As soon as we did that it caused irreversible changes in us. Before that our soul was visible to us but our physical body/ego/sin was hidden from us. After eating from the tree our body/ego became visible and our soul became invisible, like on Earth here and we became mortal and our physical desires like hunger, sleep, excretion etc. manifested. We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.
OUR SECOND BLUNDER
Allah gave us a second chance out of His Mercy and sent us to Earth. Even then He offered us to accept the trust or not. Out of our choosing to remain ignorant we chose to accept the trust. I am pretty sure Allah must have given us knowledge at that time and informed us of the consequences of accepting the trust including ending up in Hell. We continued to be stubborn and ignorant and accepted the trust.
3372 We displayed/presented the trust on the skies/space and the earth, and the mountains, so they refused that they bear it, and they were cautious/afraid from it, and the human bore it, that he truly was unjust/oppressive, ignorant
The following is the covenant that resulted from this trust
3660-61 Did I not make a covenant to you, Adam's descendants, that you do not serve the devil, he truly is for you a clear/evident enemy, and that you serve Me, that is a straight path?
THIRD BLUNDER OF SOME (MOST) OF US
Then after that He continued to give us the knowledge required to make the right choices. Now if anyone continues to choose to remain ignorant and/or not trust Allah and keep serving the devil and end up in Hell then it is not Allah's fault. He is Merciful and Just. Only we are to blame if we end up in Hell. Those of us who will make the same mistake of being deceived by Iblis/ego again and rejecting the truth will have to suffer the consequences and that will be OUR CHOICE.
Just because Allah knows what is going to happen in the future and that some of us will end up in Hell DOES NOT MEAN HE FORCED IT UPON US
479 Any good that befalls you is from God, and any bad that befalls you is from yourself.
Following are the signs detailing this story
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
720 But the devil whispered to them, to reveal their sin which was kept from them; and he said "Your Lord did not forbid you from this tree except that you would become Angels, or you would be immortal."
721 And he swore to them "I am giving good advice."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
723 They said "Our Lord, we have wronged ourselves and if You do not forgive us and have mercy on us, then we will be of the losers!"
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
725 He said "In it you will live and in it you will die, and from it you will be brought forth."20113 And We had made a pledge to Adam from before, but he forgot, and We did not find in him the will power.
20114 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam." They all submitted except for Satan, he refused.
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."
20116 "You will have in it that you will not go hungry nor need clothes."
20117 "And you will have in it that you will not go thirsty nor suffer from heat."
20118 But the devil whispered to him, he said "O Adam, shall I lead you to the tree of immortality and a kingdom which will not waste away?"
20119 So they both ate from it, and their sin became apparent for them, and they began to place leaves on themselves from the paradise. Adam had disobeyed his Lord, and had gone astray.
20120 Then his Lord recalled him, and He forgave him and gave guidance to him.
20121 He said "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you;"
20122 "Then, whoever follows My guidance, he will not go astray nor suffer."
20123 "And whoever turns away from My remembrance, then he will have a miserable life, and We will raise him blind on the Day of Resurrection."1425 And the devil said when the matter was complete "God had promised you the promise of truth, and I promised you and broke my promise. And I had no power over you except that I invited you and you responded to me. So do not blame me, but blame yourselves; I cannot help you nor can you help me. I reject that you have set me as a partner before this; the wicked will have a painful retribution."
4011 They will Say "Our Lord, You have made us die twice, and You have given us life twice. Now we have confessed our sins. Is there any way out of this path?"
IS THIS A CONTRADICTION?????
I only have one question. Can anyone explain the apparent contradiction between the following 2 sets of ayat?
SO THAT ALLAH WOULD KNOW (implying that He does not know??)
The following ayat seem to imply that Allah does not know exactly what we will choose to do
3143 Or did you think that you would enter Paradise without God knowing those who would strive amongst you and knowing those who are patient?
917 Or did you think that you would be left alone? God will come to know those of you who strived and did not take other than God and His messenger and the believers as helpers. God is Expert in what you do.
293 While We had tested those before them, so that God would know those who are truthful and so that He would know the liars.GOD IS ALL KNOWING
but then there is an apparent contradiction with the following ayat which clearly say that Allah knows our present and future
2255 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge except for what He wishes.
20108 He knows their present and their future, and they do not have any of His knowledge.
2129 He knows their present and their future, and they cannot intercede unless it is for those whom He is pleased with. And they stand in awe and reverence of Him.
2275 He knows their present and their future. And to God all matters are returned.One actual example of Him knowing the future is
1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.Any comments will be highly appreciated. Ayman? Wakas? Nadia? Marie? Zenje? The Nabi? Layth? Edip? Hafeez? Idolfree? Lote Tree? idmkhizer? ANYONE????????
Peace,
Tanveer
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Peace all,
One actual example of Him knowing the future is
1112 Condemned is the hand of Abu-Lahab; condemned indeed.
1113 His money will not avail him, nor what he has earned.
1114 He will be sent to a flaming Fire.
1115 And his wife who carries the logs.
1116 On her neck will be a rope of thorns.Any comments will be highly appreciated. Ayman? Wakas? Nadia? Marie? Zenje? The Nabi? Layth? Edip? Hafeez? Idolfree? Lote Tree? idmkhizer? ANYONE????????
Who was the condemned Abu Lahab and his wife who carried the logs? Can anyone explain? Obviously, the above ayahs are essential to reflect upon what Abu Lahab and his wife did or did not do, to better understand the condemnation that they so deserved, don't you think? So what example do they set out without knowing their historical backgrounds? Perhaps "Muhammad" knew who Abu Lahab and his wife were all along, hence the above verses? What say you guys?
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Peace tanveermd,
I think brother Ayman's response contains the answer. Allah is All Knowing, Just, and Merciful. We cannot blame him for creating humans knowing some of them will end up in Hell. We can only blame Him if He had not provided us with the knowledge essential to making the right choices. We can only blame our ignorance or the lack of trust in Allah.
Indeed...i agree to some degree here...our own choices cause us to go down the wrong path yet some still want the chance of frolicking and cavorting in the heavenly pastures even though they may have constantly chosen wrong...that is whats unfair imo.
SO THAT ALLAH WOULD KNOW (implying that He does not know??)
Allah is the knower of everything as in the scripture...his knowledge is absolute...there is nothing He does not know...
Some alternative translations
003.142
YUSUFALI Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?KHALIFA Do you expect to enter Paradise without GOD distinguishing those among you who strive, and without distinguishing those who are steadfast?
009.016
YUSUFALI Or think ye that ye shall be abandoned, as though Allah did not know those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? But Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye doKHALIFA Did you think that you will be left alone without GOD distinguishing those among you who strive, and never ally themselves with GOD's enemies, or the enemies of His messenger, or the enemies of the believers? GOD is fully Cognizant of everything you do.
029.003
PICKTHAL Lo! We tested those who were before you. Thus Allah knoweth those who are sincere, and knoweth those who feign.KHALIFA We have tested those before them, for GOD must distinguish those who are truthful, and He must expose the liars
According to the fact that God is the knower of everything (that does include the future cuz thats part of everything), the explanation that goes along with this fact is that men are being tested for our benefit NOT for God's...so that the record is all clear and fair...see God is distinguishing us by testing us for us...not that God is distinguishing us because He doesn't know...as that is a contradiction to God's knowing all. I think if we substitute distinguish in most of these verses it makes more sense than God must know (as if He doesn't know something)...as that is a glaring contradiction.
I don't understand how its comforting that THE God is NOT all knowing...
Nadia
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From the great reading we know that The God guides us (in the present) to which branch to choose or He doesn't guide us (in the present) to which branch to choose. The God's decision to guide or not guide is not predestined. So the question is what causes us to make a correct choice. Think about it, what would allow you to always make the correct choice?
Agree with brother Ayman here, and the rest of his excellent comment.