The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?
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Salaamun alaikum Taj,
Adam was not on Heaven or in any place other than Earth itself. Adam was created from Earth to live on Earth. Earth was not a punishment for his mistake. His punishment was to get him out from that perfect place, a place somewhere here on Earth where he was perfectly enjoying his living to another place also somewhere here on Earth but that is so rough that he has to survive. It was a change from living to survival. Both phases took place on this Earth.
Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran. It is not a good practice to uphold something based on conjecture without knowledge. I have provided all the evidences from Al-Quran in my previous post supporting my understanding which looks like you have conveniently ignored. I will reproduce some of those ayat for your convenience
Adam was in paradise
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."and then he was sent to Earth
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
"min" is not an added thing to the verb here. The "m" belongs to the original root verb. So it is 3alama-Ya3lamo. When we add the "Anna" so the verb would look like this "Ya3lamanna" this does not change the meaning whether the meaning is to Know or to Distinguish as both are correct. Adding the "Anna" would only add confirmation to the meaning, more emphasis and force. It will add "will definitely/surely/clearly ...so and so"
I will give you this example
Sa3lamo my result tomorrow= I will know my result tomorrow.
Sa3lamanna my result tomorrow= I will definitely/surely/clearly/beyond doubt know my result tomorrow.Looks like you completely missed what I was trying to say. I am not discussing "anna". I am talking about the "min" (minkum) separate from the word "Ya'lam" which appears in the sentence a few words later.
003142 Am hasibtum an tadkhuloo aljannata walamma yaAAlami Allahu allatheena jahadoo minkum wayaAAlama alssabireena
009016 Am hasibtum an tutrakoo walamma yaAAlami Allahu allatheena jahadoo minkum walam yattakhithoo min dooni Allahi wala rasoolihi wala almu/mineena waleejatan waAllahu khabeerun bima taAAmaloonaI am trying to prove that instead of "Ya'lami Allahu" being translated as "Allah knows" in those ayat it should be translated as "Allah distinguishes" based on the presence of "min" (minkum) following the word "Ya'lamu" in 3143 and 917 otherwise the translation "Allah knows" causes a glaring contradiction as per Nadia's post. In 293 I am talking about the "min" appearing one word before "Ya'lamanna" in ".......allatheena min qablihim falaya'lamanna........" Please reread mine and Nadia's previous posts carefully. Thank you,
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer, All
Salaamun alaikum Taj,
Adam was not on Heaven or in any place other than Earth itself. Adam was created from Earth to live on Earth. Earth was not a punishment for his mistake. His punishment was to get him out from that perfect place, a place somewhere here on Earth where he was perfectly enjoying his living to another place also somewhere here on Earth but that is so rough that he has to survive. It was a change from living to survival. Both phases took place on this Earth.
Before you state your understanding as a fact please provide evidence for the above from Al-Quran. It is not a good practice to uphold something based on conjecture without knowledge. I have provided all the evidences from Al-Quran in my previous post supporting my understanding which looks like you have conveniently ignored. I will reproduce some of those ayat for your convenience
Adam was in paradise
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."
719 "And Adam, reside with your mate in the paradise, and eat from wherever you please; but do not approach this tree or you will be of the wicked."
722 So he misled them with deception; and when they tasted the tree, their sin became apparent to them, and they rushed to cover themselves with the leaves of the paradise; and their Lord called to them "Did I not forbid you from that tree, and tell you that the devil is your clear enemy?"
20115 So We said "O Adam, this is an enemy to you and your mate. So do not let him take you out from the paradise, else you will have hardship."and then he was sent to Earth
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
Try to read the transliteration in those Ayat and you will not see the word Paradise = Firdous.
You will only find the word Jannah which is a word that can be used to mean Paradise or to mean a Beautiful Garden. There are many examples in the Quran where the word Jannah appears to give the meaning of a beautiful place that can be a home and a garden.Secondly Iblees or evil does not exist in Paradise. You can check the Ayat with the description of Paradise and you will find them all talking about the purity = 6aharah of everything and everyone in it. God did not create Paradise and then after the incident God purified it!
Thirdly Descend does not mean Get out and then the door is shut.
It means move from a special place to a place that is less in quality. And that is exactly the case on Earth. Living conditions are not all the same around the world.
So Descend is like when you come down from upstairs to downstairs but you are still in the same house!
The letter 'Wa' can also mean Also or still.
God here reassures Adam and his wife afer they have repented that Earth is vast still and so they will still be able to settle and find joy.
So the rest of the Ayah would be like this Also you will/You will still find settlement and enjoyment until some time?. Some time does not necessarily mean until Judgment day.Allah has created Adam as a khaleefah in charge to build this Earth. Earth was not intended as a punishment. Earth is Adam's and our Birthplace and a test ground for humanity. We are being continuously tested.
Adam was not tested once. He probably did many mistake, the way we all do. The one mistake mentioned in the Quran was just one example of his mistakes and he was probably being moved from one place to another according to his and his wife's actions.
Allah gave us in the Quran examples of things that happened and will happen. Take the story of the people of Prophet Lot. Did their action end by them? That story was just a real example of History.As for the second part of the post I did read your post quickly and I did not think that you were speaking about the preposition "min".
Tanveer,
In the Quran you won?t find an Ayah for everything. We have sometimes to conclude, as for example in the case of the Halal meat.
We could reach different conclusions based on the same Ayat depending on how much we have learned the Quran as a whole.Wa Ssalaamm
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Salaamun alaikum brother Taj,
Try to read the transliteration in those Ayat and you will not see the word Paradise = Firdous.
You will only find the word Jannah which is a word that can be used to mean Paradise or to mean a Beautiful Garden. There are many examples in the Quran where the word Jannah appears to give the meaning of a beautiful place that can be a home and a garden.Please give me the evidence for your above understanding. Please give me proof from a dictionary or the rest of Al-Quran that Jannah means Earth. Any dictionary of Al-Quran says it means "garden" or "paradise" but none say it can mean "Earth". Paradise and garden are synonymous. I might agree with you only as far as that the "paradise" that we were in may not be the paradise that the righteous will go to in the Life Hereafter. But where does it say that Jannah is Earth? It could have been another planet or galaxy or somewhere else.
282 And those who believe and do good work, they are the people of Paradise, in it they abide eternally.
Arabic Original Text 282
2111 And they said "None shall enter Paradise except those who are Jewish or Nazarenes;" this is what they wish! Say "Bring forth your proof if you are truthful."
Arabic Original Text 2111
3134 And race towards forgiveness from your Lord and a Paradise whose width encompasses the width of the heavens and the Earth; it has been prepared for the righteous.
Arabic Original Text 3134In the above ayat and many many more, Allah uses the word Jannah for Paradise.
According to dictionary of Al-Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar, "Firdaus" means fertile land; the garden that contains everything that should be in a garden; orchard; fruitful valley; the best place of Paradise.
So it can mean garden too and is another word used to describe Paradise
18103 Those who believe and do good works, they will have gardens of Paradise as a dwelling place.
Arabic Original Text 18103Descend does not mean Get out and then the door is shut.
It means move from a special place to a place that is less in quality. And that is exactly the case on Earth. Living conditions are not all the same around the world.
So Descend is like when you come down from upstairs to downstairs but you are still in the same house!
The letter 'Wa' can also mean Also or still.
God here reassures Adam and his wife afer they have repented that Earth is vast still and so they will still be able to settle and find joy.In the universe you can be living on another planet in another galaxy and "descend" to Earth. Descend does not always mean from the same place. Even if it does mean from same place, the whole universe is one big place and you can "descend" from one place of the universe to another, for example from one galaxy to another. Where in Al-Quran it says Jannah = Earth? Allah uses two separate words for the two and they dont seem to be mutually inclusive.
So the rest of the Ayah would be like this Also you will/You will still find settlement and enjoyment until some time?. Some time does not necessarily mean until Judgment day.
Where do you get your understanding that the period of time mentioned in the above ayat does not necessarily mean until Judgement Day? Please prove it from Al-Quran. PM translates it as follows
724 He said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
Appointed time implies until the Judgement Day.
1539 "Until the Day of the appointed time."
17100 Did they not see that God who has created the heavens and the Earth is able to create their like? And He has made an appointed time for them in which there is no doubt. But the wicked refuse anything except rejection.
463 We did not create the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them except with truth, and for an appointed time.
5447 The Hour is their appointed time, and the Hour is far worse and more painful.The above ayat seem to imply that the appointed time is until the Day of Judgement.
Earth was not intended as a punishment. Earth is Adam's and our Birthplace and a test ground for humanity. We are being continuously tested.
Adam was not tested once. He probably did many mistake, the way we all do. The one mistake mentioned in the Quran was just one example of his mistakes and he was probably being moved from one place to another according to his and his wife's actions.I agree that Earth is not intended as a punishment but rather as a test ground. This is based on the following ayat that shows that Adam was forgiven and then sent to Earth, so how can it be a punishment wen he was forgiven?
20120 Then his Lord recalled him, and He forgave him and gave guidance to him.
20121 He said "Descend from this, all of you, for you are enemies to one another. So, when My guidance comes to you;"In my post I did not say we were sent here for our punishment but as a consequence of our actions
tanveermd wrote We thereafter realized our folly and repented and Allah forgave us but because we had caused irreversible changes in ourselves we suffered its consequences and died ! We were then reborn on Earth and are here because of OUR CHOICE and not because we were FORCED. We did it to ourselves.
Taj wrote We could reach different conclusions based on the same Ayat depending on how much we have learned the Quran as a whole.
Agreed, but we should form our conclusions based on evidences from Al-Quran.
In the Quran you won?t find an Ayah for everything. We have sometimes to conclude, as for example in the case of the Halal meat.
Be careful brother, you might be treading dangerous waters !! Allah clearly says in Al-Quran that it is fully detailed and complete and that Allah does not neglect anything in it.
1713 And everything We have detailed completely.
1689 "And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything <wa nazzalna_ 'alaikal kita_ba tibya_nal likulli shai'iw>, and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit."
640 We did not leave anything out of the record; then to their Lord they will be gathered.
6116 "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?" <al-kitaaba mufaSSalan> Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.
6117 And the word of your Lord has been completed with truth and justice; there is no changing His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower.
413 ?A Book of which the verses are distinctly detailed <fuSSilat ayaatahu>, an Arabic Qur?an for people who know?Regards,
Tanveer
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What's the point of trying to make the God subject to such "logical" thinking?
The way I see it, belief in God and a religion must be free of logical contradiction. Otherwise, as I see it, God would not be just. Why would He create us with reason if we would have to "crucify" it (in the words of Kirkegaard) in order to have faith? My reading of the Qur'an confirms to me that God wants us to be logical and rational (note that He often points out the illogical arguments of various unbelievers).
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An omniscient god does not allow for free will.
You have grasped what "omniscient" means! Humanity has spent centuries to reconcile this with Free Will but to no avail. The fact is humanity will not be able to reconcile this without rejecting ominiscience...
Regards,
I think perhaps you have not been very clear in stating your position? Perhaps you mean that some notions of omniscience are not compatible with free will, but this doesn't mean that it is impossible for there to be a way to reconcile the two. Moreover, there are a number of perfectly reasonable explanations, but they would imply that God is not merciful (or they seem to imply this). So the issue is Free Will + Omniscient, Merciful God. I don't think we should just throw up our hands and say we can't understand this--I think we should try to resolve it to the best of our abilities.
This reminds me of the (rather shallow) view that some have that the notion of omnipotence is inherently illogical. The supposed "paradox" is, can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it? Either way you answer it, apparently it's a blow to God's omnipotence. But actually it's not. God cannot create an object that cannot logically exist. Such an object is meaningless, the same way God cannot "green sideways", since such an action, as stated, is meaningless. (Of course, one could give a meaning to "green sideways", but in standard English, that phrase is both meaningless and ungrammatical.)
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Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.
I think that such a notion is, in fact, incompatible with God's All-Knowing nature. I'm not quite sure how you're using the word "random" here, but you seem to be implying that God cannot have complete knowledge of the future. (I don't mean to imply that you actually subscribe to this view, since you didn't make that clear, but merely what I see as the consequences of such a belief.)
Your example of a random number generator is quite an interesting one! For just about "random" functions in computer programs are not random at all--they are what is called "pseudo-random". This means that they are in fact deterministic, but the numbers that the random number generator spits out adhere to some probability distribution (for instance, every integer in some range is just as likely as any other). See http//dict.die.net/pseudorandom%20number/, for instance.
A true random number generator has to sample processes that are truly non-deterministic, such as physical processes (such as atmospheric noise or radioactive decay). See http//www.random.org/essay.html for more on this.
Now, is the string of random numbers generated by a true random number generator, such as random.org, known to God? My answer is "yes, of course."
tanveermd, I think you brought up some very good points in your post. I think right now I am leaning toward option #3, and I am reading the very interesting essay "Eternal Hell and Merciful God".
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Salaamun alaikum geek girl,
Welcome to the forum !
I wish I knew your real first name so I could address you by it !
tanveermd wrote
Possibility number 2 implies a God that is not knowledgeable of everything and would contradict a lot of ayat. But what if the absolute certain knowledge of a random event is not possible? The God may see the future and find out the outcome but if He sees the future again the outcome might be different because the choices made by humans are random events (free will implies randomness). This is analogous to a program on a spreadsheet based on a random number generator. Each time we run the program it can have a different outcome. We can travel in time and see what the outcome was of a certain run but if we came back and ran the program again at a slightly different time the result could be different. So Allah may know all the possible outcomes and in that sense He is All Knowing but the exact outcome might not be known unless the actual program is run and followed to the end.geek girl wrote
I think that such a notion is, in fact, incompatible with God's All-Knowing nature. I'm not quite sure how you're using the word "random" here, but you seem to be implying that God cannot have complete knowledge of the future. (I don't mean to imply that you actually subscribe to this view, since you didn't make that clear, but merely what I see as the consequences of such a belief.)Since my post quoted by you above, some new information was brought to my attention by Nadia which completely changed my thought process (please see Nadia's subsequent post about the word "Ya'lamu" in 3143 and 917 meaning "He distinguishes" rather than "He knows" and my subsequent post which researched that in more detail). I was just trying to explore some possibilities and reconcile two apparently contradicting sets of ayat. The new information brought to my attention shows that the two sets of ayat are not contradictory at all but the first set of ayat was mistranslated leading to my erroneous attempts to reconcile them. I believe and have always believed that Allah is Allknowing and knows everything as you have stated in your post
Now, is the string of random numbers generated by a true random number generator, such as random.org, known to God? My answer is "yes, of course."
Agreed. My own quote from the first sentence of my post
I believe that Allah is Just and Merciful and All Knowledgeable. I also believe that we have free will to choose our actions.
I have now managed to reconcile the idea of a Merciful, Just and Allknowing God (please see mine and Ayman's subsequent posts proving that it is our ignorance that is to blame and not the Mercy of The Allknowing God).
Eternal Hell and Merciful God is a very enlightening article !! I am looking forward to your enlightening comments on it.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaams Tanveer, All
I see that you insist that 'Jannah' can mean only Paradise The Reward for the Believers! While clearly to my understanding 'Jannah' can mean both The Paradise and also any awesome garden on Earth.
You asked for a proof from the Quran. Here it is
Take a look at the following Ayat in any possible translation, as well as in transliteration and then tell me if Allah means by the word 'Jannah', which appears in them in the singular form, the dual and plural, strictly the Paradise The Reward for the Believers, or could it mean also any awesome garden on Earth!Thank you!
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Eternal Hell and Merciful God is a very enlightening article !! I am looking forward to your enlightening comments on it.
I really liked the article (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm), and I agreed with all of it, up until the very end! Basically, I disagree with the notion that the unbelievers end up being annihilated if/when Hell is destroyed. To me, this does not mesh with the notion of a merciful God--why should God even create these souls in the first place if they end up doing a bunch of bad stuff, going to hell, and eventually be destroyed? Also, I have read some illuminating discussions of this issue by Christian theologian who argued that just as it would be denying a person's dignity for God to force him to believe something, so would it be denying a person's dignity to destroy him. (He used a very nice argument starting from the premise that God would not treat humans as means to an end, but as ends in themselves, in the Kantian sense.)
My sister's has pointed out to me that there is no reason to believe that time makes any sense at all in absence of a physical world. I'm not sure what is the standard view on the matter, but I don't believe that we will experience heaven and hell in our physical bodies--it will be our non-material souls that go to one of these "places". (Of course the Koran does state that our physical bodies will be reconstitued for Judgement Day, but that is so that they bear witness to our deeds in this world.) So, if there is no physical body, then Heaven and Hell are simply states that a soul will experience. And obviously all of the descriptions of Heaven and Hell that talk about physical things (i.e., gardens in Heaven), are clearly metaphorical.
And there's no reason to assume that it's a binary thing--either you're in a heaven-state, and it's like such and such, or you're in a hell-state, which has some other properties. Rather, I see it as a continuum. Those who are more spiritual and holy, and therefore closer to God, are going to be in the highest possible Heaven-state. At some point on the continuum, of course, a person has divorced himself from God entirely, and Hell will be the absence of God, along with the realization that he has made a terrible, terrible mistake in his life.
But why assume that you're in some Heaven- or Hell-state, and you stay in that state "forever"? In other words, why assume that you cannot grow spiritually once there is no longer a physical body? If we consider that "eternally" doesn't really have the meaning of "forever and ever" if the notion of time is radically different, then "eternal" is also a metaphor, just as were the gardens in Heaven. My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.
Also, another alternative explanation (as I see it) to Yuksel's argument is that perhaps when Hell is destroyed (of course, imagining that it is a physical place, which I don't believe it is!), the soul is "recycled" and will be put in the physical world of the next creation, if there is one. This is more or less reincarnation (though not in the Hindu sense, since the physical bodies would always be human), which I don't necessarily believe in, but as far as I am aware, nothing in the Koran rules out the possiblity of reincarnation.
Donna
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Salaamun alaikum brother Taj,
I see that you insist that 'Jannah' can mean only Paradise The Reward for the Believers! While clearly to my understanding 'Jannah' can mean both The Paradise and also any awesome garden on Earth.
Please do not misquote me. Let's see what I said
Please give me proof from a dictionary or the rest of Al-Quran that Jannah means Earth. Any dictionary of Al-Quran says it means "garden" or "paradise" but none say it can mean "Earth".
Now where do I insist that "jannah" can mean only "Paradise the reward for the believers". It can mean paradise or a garden. Paradise could mean a garden on Earth or "Paradise the reward for the believers". But nowhere it means "Earth". It could be a garden on Earth but not "Earth". All I asked you was to show me where in Al-Quran "jannah" means "Earth" and you still have not shown me that.
You asked for a proof from the Quran. Here it is
Take a look at the following Ayat in any possible translation, as well as in transliteration and then tell me if Allah means by the word 'Jannah', which appears in them in the singular form, the dual and plural, strictly the Paradise The Reward for the Believers, or could it mean also any awesome garden on Earth!Any word's meaning depends on how it is used in the context. I checked all the above ayat. In all of the above ayat "jannah" clearly means "a garden on Earth" from the context. In each of the above instances if you read the ayat before and after it is obvious that Allah is talking about garden/gardens on Earth. However nowhere "jannah" means "Earth".
In the ayat pertaining to Adam's first residence, the word "jannah" in those ayat cannot mean "a garden on Earth" because there is no clear cut reference to a garden on Earth in the context i.e. the ayat before and after. This is in stark contrast to the ayat that you quoted. In each of your quoted ayat, Allah makes it very clear that He is talking about a garden on Earth. If Adam's prior residence was on a garden on Earth, then Allah would have made it very clear in the context.
Let's analyze the pertinent ayat
229 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.
230 And your Lord said to the Angels "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said "I know what you do not know."It is obvious that Adam is not on Earth so far as Allah is talking about placing him on Earth but has not placed him on Earth yet. So how could he be in a garden on Earth???
231 And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of the description of these," so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?"
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."It is obvious from the context that Adam is still not on Earth. But he is in a garden so obviously that garden cannot be on Earth.
236 So, the devil tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."
NOW Adam is being sent to Earth. The words "and on Earth you WILL have residence" makes it very obvious that the "jannah" mentioned in 235 is not a garden on Earth.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Salaamun alaikum Donna !,
I really liked the article (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm), and I agreed with all of it, up until the very end! Basically, I disagree with the notion that the unbelievers end up being annihilated if/when Hell is destroyed. To me, this does not mesh with the notion of a merciful God--why should God even create these souls in the first place if they end up doing a bunch of bad stuff, going to hell, and eventually be destroyed?
Agreed. I think that is Edip's idea and not from Al-Quran. Al-Quran nowhere says that unbelievers will end up being annihilated after Hell.
but I don't believe that we will experience heaven and hell in our physical bodies--it will be our non-material souls that go to one of these "places". (Of course the Koran does state that our physical bodies will be reconstitued for Judgement Day, but that is so that they bear witness to our deeds in this world.) So, if there is no physical body, then Heaven and Hell are simply states that a soul will experience. And obviously all of the descriptions of Heaven and Hell that talk about physical things (i.e., gardens in Heaven), are clearly metaphorical.
The above idea is your idea and not from Al-Quran. IMO Al-Quran clearly states that our physical bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day and then we will be sent to Hell or Heaven. So obviously Hell or Heaven will be experienced both by the physical body and the soul. The physical body will not be exactly similar to the physical body we have on Earth. IMO it will be different, because there is no excretion, or disease in Heaven. So IMO no anus and no lymphatic system, therefore a different kind of physical body i.e. a "super" physical body. In the same way the physical things in Heaven e.g. gardens and fruits and rivers will also be physical but different from the physical things of this world.
256 Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.
3019 He brings the living out of the dead, and He brings the dead out of the living. And He revives the land after its death. And similarly you will be brought out.
3040 God who created you, then He provided for you, then He puts you to death, then He brings you to life.
3050 So look at the effects of God's mercy, how He revives the land after its death. Such is the One who will revive the dead, and He is capable of all things.
4311 And He is the One who sends down water from the sky, in exact measure. We then revive with it a dead land. Similarly, you will be brought-out.1967 And man says "Can it be that when I am dead, I will be brought out alive?"
1968 Does man not remember that We created him before that and he was nothing at all?2336 "Does he promise you that if you die and become dust and bones that you will be brought out?"
2337 "Far fetched is what you are being promised."
2338 "There is nothing but our worldly life, we die and we live, and we will not be resurrected."
2339 "He is but a man who has invented a lie against God, and we will not believe in him."3678 And he cites an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation! He says "Who can resurrect the bones while they are dust?"
3679 Say "The One who made them in the first place will resurrect them. He is fully aware of every creation."2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred calendar years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred calendar years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"
It is clear from the above ayat that resurrection will be physical.
The evidence of transformation of the physical body into a different kind of physical body comes from the following ayat5664 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
5665 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.But why assume that you're in some Heaven- or Hell-state, and you stay in that state "forever"? In other words, why assume that you cannot grow spiritually once there is no longer a physical body?
Why can we not grow spiritually in a physical body? IMO we can still grow spiritually even with a physical body esecially a "super" physical body.
My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.
I disagree with the above idea of your sister too. IMO the "soul+super body" will be reverted to a clean and pure state once it has finished the "prison sentence" of Hell and then will be sent to Heaven. This is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.
Also, another alternative explanation (as I see it) to Yuksel's argument is that perhaps when Hell is destroyed (of course, imagining that it is a physical place, which I don't believe it is!), the soul is "recycled" and will be put in the physical world of the next creation, if there is one. This is more or less reincarnation (though not in the Hindu sense, since the physical bodies would always be human), which I don't necessarily believe in, but as far as I am aware, nothing in the Koran rules out the possiblity of reincarnation.
IMHO there will not be another physical world like Earth after Hell. As I mentioned above, after going through Hell, the "souls+super bodies" will be sent to Heaven. This possibility is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.
Regards,
Tanveer
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IMO Al-Quran clearly states that our physical bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day and then we will be sent to Hell or Heaven.
On this we are agreed (and thank you for the numerous ayat), since this is very clear. Moreover, the Quran explains that our bodies will bear witness to our sins, so one of the reasons for this resurrection is given.
So obviously Hell or Heaven will be experienced both by the physical body and the soul.
I don't think this follows. Our bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day, but there's no reason to assume that we will go to Heaven or Hell in physical form. Even if you do assume a physical body, there's no reason to assume that the physical laws of such places are anything like what we experience here.
The evidence of transformation of the physical body into a different kind of physical body comes from the following ayat
5664 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
5665 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.I don't think that this rules out the possibility of a non-physical existence (just the soul). Or, as I said above, the physical state might be so completely different that descriptions of Heaven would all be metaphorical.
Why can we not grow spiritually in a physical body? IMO we can still grow spiritually even with a physical body esecially a "super" physical body.
This is true. I guess I don't see any reason to believe it's a physical body, and it's more important to consider the state of one's soul.
My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.
I disagree with the above idea of your sister too. IMO the "soul+super body" will be reverted to a clean and pure state once it has finished the "prison sentence" of Hell and then will be sent to Heaven. This is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.
Can you explain why this is not ruled out? In this case, Hell would be more like the old Christian notion of Purgatory, and would not be eternal. So are you saying that Hell, a physical place, would be destroyed once everyone was done, and then they go to Heaven? (In that case, eternal would be taken to mean, "for the entire duration that Hell exists".) But the problem is that it doesn't seem like everyone would be in there for the same amount of time. Do you also then think the descriptions of Hell are literal? Is there literally fire and boiling water, etc? Personally I don't think there is, as I can't reconcile that with my conception of God. I don't see how any of that would help one's spiritual growth. It seems to be a very anthropomorphic view of God, almost likening Him to a father who punishes his child. (I don't mean to imply that this is your view, but this does seem to be a common view.)
I suppose an alternative explanation would be to claim that "eternally" is used metaphorically, but this is probably stretching things if you are assuming a physical world where the notion of time is meaningful.
IMHO there will not be another physical world like Earth after Hell. As I mentioned above, after going through Hell, the "souls+super bodies" will be sent to Heaven. This possibility is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.
Yes, I tend to agree with you that there won't be another Earth. My sister's view on the matter (which I agree with) is that certainly it's possible that there is reincarnation, but there is absolutely no clear mention of this in the Quran anywhere (though of course there are verses that could be taken to mean this, such as 5665 I suppose). Therefore, this can't be an important point, since otherwise it the Quran would have been clearer on the matter.