The Ultimate Qs: Do we have a free will or not?

[unknownuser]

Salaamun alaikum brother Taj,

I see that you insist that 'Jannah' can mean only Paradise The Reward for the Believers! While clearly to my understanding 'Jannah' can mean both The Paradise and also any awesome garden on Earth.

Please do not misquote me. Let's see what I said

Please give me proof from a dictionary or the rest of Al-Quran that Jannah means Earth. Any dictionary of Al-Quran says it means "garden" or "paradise" but none say it can mean "Earth".

Now where do I insist that "jannah" can mean only "Paradise the reward for the believers". It can mean paradise or a garden. Paradise could mean a garden on Earth or "Paradise the reward for the believers". But nowhere it means "Earth". It could be a garden on Earth but not "Earth". All I asked you was to show me where in Al-Quran "jannah" means "Earth" and you still have not shown me that.

You asked for a proof from the Quran. Here it is
Take a look at the following Ayat in any possible translation, as well as in transliteration and then tell me if Allah means by the word 'Jannah', which appears in them in the singular form, the dual and plural, strictly the Paradise The Reward for the Believers, or could it mean also any awesome garden on Earth!

Any word's meaning depends on how it is used in the context. I checked all the above ayat. In all of the above ayat "jannah" clearly means "a garden on Earth" from the context. In each of the above instances if you read the ayat before and after it is obvious that Allah is talking about garden/gardens on Earth. However nowhere "jannah" means "Earth".

In the ayat pertaining to Adam's first residence, the word "jannah" in those ayat cannot mean "a garden on Earth" because there is no clear cut reference to a garden on Earth in the context i.e. the ayat before and after. This is in stark contrast to the ayat that you quoted. In each of your quoted ayat, Allah makes it very clear that He is talking about a garden on Earth. If Adam's prior residence was on a garden on Earth, then Allah would have made it very clear in the context.

Let's analyze the pertinent ayat

229 He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.
230 And your Lord said to the Angels "I am placing a successor on Earth." They said "Would You place in it he who would corrupt in it, and spill blood, while we sing Your glory, and praise You?" He said "I know what you do not know."

It is obvious that Adam is not on Earth so far as Allah is talking about placing him on Earth but has not placed him on Earth yet. So how could he be in a garden on Earth???

231 And He taught Adam the description of all things, then He displayed them to the Angels and said "Inform Me the descriptions of these things if you are truthful."
232 They said "Glory be to You, we have no knowledge except that which You have taught us, You are the Knowledgeable, the Wise."
233 He said "O Adam, inform them of the description of these," so when he informed them of their descriptions, He said "Did I not tell you that I know the unseen of heavens and Earth, and that I know what you reveal and what you were hiding?"
234 And We said to the Angels "Submit to Adam," so they submitted except for Satan, he refused and became arrogant, and became of the rejecters.
235 And We said "O Adam, reside you and your mate in the paradise, and eat from it bountifully as you both wish, and do not approach this tree, else you will be of those who did wrong."

It is obvious from the context that Adam is still not on Earth. But he is in a garden so obviously that garden cannot be on Earth.

236 So, the devil tricked them from it, and he brought them out from what they were in, and We said "Descend; for you are enemies to one another; and on Earth you will have residence and provisions until the appointed time."

NOW Adam is being sent to Earth. The words "and on Earth you WILL have residence" makes it very obvious that the "jannah" mentioned in 235 is not a garden on Earth.

Regards,

Tanveer

[unknownuser]

Salaamun alaikum Donna !,

I really liked the article (http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/hell.htm), and I agreed with all of it, up until the very end! Basically, I disagree with the notion that the unbelievers end up being annihilated if/when Hell is destroyed. To me, this does not mesh with the notion of a merciful God--why should God even create these souls in the first place if they end up doing a bunch of bad stuff, going to hell, and eventually be destroyed?

Agreed. I think that is Edip's idea and not from Al-Quran. Al-Quran nowhere says that unbelievers will end up being annihilated after Hell.

but I don't believe that we will experience heaven and hell in our physical bodies--it will be our non-material souls that go to one of these "places". (Of course the Koran does state that our physical bodies will be reconstitued for Judgement Day, but that is so that they bear witness to our deeds in this world.) So, if there is no physical body, then Heaven and Hell are simply states that a soul will experience. And obviously all of the descriptions of Heaven and Hell that talk about physical things (i.e., gardens in Heaven), are clearly metaphorical.

The above idea is your idea and not from Al-Quran. IMO Al-Quran clearly states that our physical bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day and then we will be sent to Hell or Heaven. So obviously Hell or Heaven will be experienced both by the physical body and the soul. The physical body will not be exactly similar to the physical body we have on Earth. IMO it will be different, because there is no excretion, or disease in Heaven. So IMO no anus and no lymphatic system, therefore a different kind of physical body i.e. a "super" physical body. In the same way the physical things in Heaven e.g. gardens and fruits and rivers will also be physical but different from the physical things of this world.

256 Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.
3019 He brings the living out of the dead, and He brings the dead out of the living. And He revives the land after its death. And similarly you will be brought out.
3040 God who created you, then He provided for you, then He puts you to death, then He brings you to life.
3050 So look at the effects of God's mercy, how He revives the land after its death. Such is the One who will revive the dead, and He is capable of all things.
4311 And He is the One who sends down water from the sky, in exact measure. We then revive with it a dead land. Similarly, you will be brought-out.

1967 And man says "Can it be that when I am dead, I will be brought out alive?"
1968 Does man not remember that We created him before that and he was nothing at all?

2336 "Does he promise you that if you die and become dust and bones that you will be brought out?"
2337 "Far fetched is what you are being promised."
2338 "There is nothing but our worldly life, we die and we live, and we will not be resurrected."
2339 "He is but a man who has invented a lie against God, and we will not believe in him."

3678 And he cites an example for Us, while forgetting his own creation! He says "Who can resurrect the bones while they are dust?"
3679 Say "The One who made them in the first place will resurrect them. He is fully aware of every creation."

2259 Or the one who passed through a town, where all its inhabitants had passed away. He said "How can God possibly resurrect this after its death?" So God put him to death for one hundred calendar years, then He resurrected him. He said "How long have you stayed here?" He said "I have stayed here a day or part of a day." He said "No, you have stayed here for one hundred calendar years! Look at your food and drink, they have not changed, but look at your donkey! And We will make you a sign for the people; and look at the bones how We grow them, then We cover them with flesh." So when it was clear to him what happened, he said "I now know that God is capable of all things!"

It is clear from the above ayat that resurrection will be physical.
The evidence of transformation of the physical body into a different kind of physical body comes from the following ayat

5664 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
5665 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.

But why assume that you're in some Heaven- or Hell-state, and you stay in that state "forever"? In other words, why assume that you cannot grow spiritually once there is no longer a physical body?

Why can we not grow spiritually in a physical body? IMO we can still grow spiritually even with a physical body esecially a "super" physical body.

My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.

I disagree with the above idea of your sister too. IMO the "soul+super body" will be reverted to a clean and pure state once it has finished the "prison sentence" of Hell and then will be sent to Heaven. This is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.

Also, another alternative explanation (as I see it) to Yuksel's argument is that perhaps when Hell is destroyed (of course, imagining that it is a physical place, which I don't believe it is!), the soul is "recycled" and will be put in the physical world of the next creation, if there is one. This is more or less reincarnation (though not in the Hindu sense, since the physical bodies would always be human), which I don't necessarily believe in, but as far as I am aware, nothing in the Koran rules out the possiblity of reincarnation.

IMHO there will not be another physical world like Earth after Hell. As I mentioned above, after going through Hell, the "souls+super bodies" will be sent to Heaven. This possibility is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.

Regards,

Tanveer

[geek_girl]

IMO Al-Quran clearly states that our physical bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day and then we will be sent to Hell or Heaven.

On this we are agreed (and thank you for the numerous ayat), since this is very clear. Moreover, the Quran explains that our bodies will bear witness to our sins, so one of the reasons for this resurrection is given.

So obviously Hell or Heaven will be experienced both by the physical body and the soul.

I don't think this follows. Our bodies will be reconstituted on Judgement Day, but there's no reason to assume that we will go to Heaven or Hell in physical form. Even if you do assume a physical body, there's no reason to assume that the physical laws of such places are anything like what we experience here.

The evidence of transformation of the physical body into a different kind of physical body comes from the following ayat

5664 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
5665 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.

I don't think that this rules out the possibility of a non-physical existence (just the soul). Or, as I said above, the physical state might be so completely different that descriptions of Heaven would all be metaphorical.

Why can we not grow spiritually in a physical body? IMO we can still grow spiritually even with a physical body esecially a "super" physical body.

This is true. I guess I don't see any reason to believe it's a physical body, and it's more important to consider the state of one's soul.

My sister's view on the matter (which I am not totally sure I accept) is that the damage done to one's soul that puts it in the Hell-state is so extensive, and such a setback, that essentially the only way we can comprehend it is to imagine that we are in that state forever.

I disagree with the above idea of your sister too. IMO the "soul+super body" will be reverted to a clean and pure state once it has finished the "prison sentence" of Hell and then will be sent to Heaven. This is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.

Can you explain why this is not ruled out? In this case, Hell would be more like the old Christian notion of Purgatory, and would not be eternal. So are you saying that Hell, a physical place, would be destroyed once everyone was done, and then they go to Heaven? (In that case, eternal would be taken to mean, "for the entire duration that Hell exists".) But the problem is that it doesn't seem like everyone would be in there for the same amount of time. Do you also then think the descriptions of Hell are literal? Is there literally fire and boiling water, etc? Personally I don't think there is, as I can't reconcile that with my conception of God. I don't see how any of that would help one's spiritual growth. It seems to be a very anthropomorphic view of God, almost likening Him to a father who punishes his child. (I don't mean to imply that this is your view, but this does seem to be a common view.)

I suppose an alternative explanation would be to claim that "eternally" is used metaphorically, but this is probably stretching things if you are assuming a physical world where the notion of time is meaningful.

IMHO there will not be another physical world like Earth after Hell. As I mentioned above, after going through Hell, the "souls+super bodies" will be sent to Heaven. This possibility is not ruled out in Al-Quran either.

Yes, I tend to agree with you that there won't be another Earth. My sister's view on the matter (which I agree with) is that certainly it's possible that there is reincarnation, but there is absolutely no clear mention of this in the Quran anywhere (though of course there are verses that could be taken to mean this, such as 5665 I suppose). Therefore, this can't be an important point, since otherwise it the Quran would have been clearer on the matter.