How should we deal with the homosexuals?
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Hi everyone,
I've noticed the topic "Homosexuality in Islam" has been discussed quite a few times on this forum. My topic however is not regarding whether or not homosexuality is lawful or unlawful in our faith.
Personally, I am a firm believer in the Quran and according to what I understand, God forbids homosexuality in the strongest words and thus so do I. I am against gay marriages and gay couples.
The point of this topic is to get some input from other believers as to how they think we Muslims should conduct overselves when dealing with gays, bisexuals, lesbians and transvestites.
Gays are not just living in the United States and Europe, they are in every community - from the middle east to Asia, homosexuality was, is and always will be a part of this world.
Recently a gay couple purchased the vacant home next to ours. They are two men living together and at first we thought perhaps they are college friends or maybe brothers, but we had a conversation with one of them about two weeks ago and he clearly said he and his partner have been together since high school and that they are gay.
Since they live in the same home, I am assuming they have physical relations with each other. My question to you all is, everytime I leave my home, I see them (well, most of the times) and they say "Hi!" and "Hello!" and I don't know how to deal with these men....one of them is a very friendly guy and he almost always comes to talk with me, especially now that the weather is nice and I am in my garden most of the time. He likes to plant vegetables as well and he gives me tips on how to plant.
Everytime I read the story of Lot, I see God's anger towards the gays and I wonder should I completely shun these guys by not greeting them? If yes, then aren't I taking away from them their God-given dignity and not talking to them when they have done absolutely nothing wrong to me? Especially, since the Quran says this
{486}When greeted with a greeting, you shall respond with a better greeting or at least an equal one. GOD reckons all things.
If no, then how can I be nice to someone whose lifestyle displeases God? How can I converse with someone who being a male sleeps with another male? Moreover, would my attitude change if these gay men have been of the Muslim faith since God tells us all believers are one family?
Any comments?
(by the way, I really don't want to go into a discussion as to wheather or not the people of Lot were really punished for homosexuality/not. I am sure you all have varying views, but using my brain the only conclusion I have reached is that homsexuality is wrong).Thanks,
MA -
peace
Heres my take for what it is worth.
You chose to live by the system, they chose not to. There are no compulsion in the system, thus they have a right to chose as they do, allthough YOU know that God will deal with them, not you or anyone else. I fail to see why you should not be freindly towards them, and caring.
If they where rude, that would be another thing. Personally i try to counter rudeness with humour. If people is rude, i will give them a hint, in very certain terms, that they are. Nomatter if they are gay, or not
Dont tell people what is right, SHOW people what is right, and if you fail, repent, and seek forgiveness. If they greet you with freindlyness, greet them back, and avoid hurting their feelings. If they know that youre a muslim, they altso know where our scripture stands regarding their choice, no need to smear it in their face.
regards
Noah -
Everytime I read the story of Lot, I see God's anger towards the gays and I wonder should I completely shun these guys by not greeting them? If yes, then aren't I taking away from them their God-given dignity and not talking to them when they have done absolutely nothing wrong to me?
salam MA.
dont shun those guys completely . if they greet u , it is good that u greet them too . if they talk to u nicely , it is better that u should too . but try to make clear to them , your stance about their homosexual activities .the homosexuals are to be punished for their evil practices.
surah An Nisa
15
If any of your women are guilty of lewdness take
the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from
amongst you against them; and if they testify
confine them to houses until death do claim them
or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.16
If two men among you are guilty of lewdness
punish them both. If they repent and amend leave
them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning Most Merciful.But I believe u might not be in a position to punish them ,so at least denounce their homosexual activities .
26 161
When their brother Lot said unto them
Will ye not ward off (evil)?26 165
What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the
males,26 166
And leave the wives your Lord created for
you? Nay, but ye are froward folk.And make clear to them your position ABOUT THEIR HOMOSEXUAL PRACTICES .
26168
He said I am in truth of those who hate
your conduct.11 80
He said "Would that I had power to suppress
you or that I could betake myself to some
powerful support."salam.
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Thank you for your comments. The guys are not mean to me and therefore I have no reason to avoid them.
The thing that I am afraid of is that one of these guys is becoming a good friend of mine. We share similar interests and he is a very nice guy, he has helped me in the past and I am not sure if I should avoid him or not. If I don't avoid him, then there'd be a gay guy I am friends with and I wonder would Lot have had done something like this?
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My first reaction when reading the title is
"OH MY GOD NOT THIS TOPIC AGAIN?" shock
Anyway. Just treat them like you would treat any two ordinary guys.
I once shared a house with (among others) an unmarried (heterosexual) couple. I just treat them like I would treat a guy and a girl that happens to be my neighbour.
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peace All,
You are not in a position to enforce punishment of any kind. If you accept to live in a country, you must abide by its rules, and if no punishment exists for such action then you cannot punish according to one's own law. Not saying there is a punishment, I'm just saying.
Thus, one should remain civil. If a discussion arises of your position, then it should be made clear. Other than that, be civil.
Wakas
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I understand your disagreement with their lifestyle, but I think it is not for you to judge their actions. Recall that Lot did not punish the homosexuals, rather God did. He did speak out to them against their behavior, but recall that he was a messenger of God. However, I believe that he must have treated them with respect and kindness--to do otherwise would be wrong. (I like to remember Jesus' words "let he who has not sinned cast the first stone." He was not condoning her behavior, but did condemn the behavior of those who wanted to punish her very cruely.)
Homosexuality is condemned in the Koran, but there are many other behaviors that are condemned even more strongly. Yet we ourselves our guilty of many of these latter behaviors (lying, ascribing parters to God, ignoring God's message). (Note that I am not saying that we are literally joining others with God, but when we place too much importance on things that we shouldn't, such as the material world, in effect we are forgetting the nature of God.) If we were to shun all those who do not live an upright life, we would shun nearly everyone, including ourselves!
It sounds like your neighbors are very friendly people--it's entirely possible that they are more moral than some of your other neighbors! They are simply truthful about their lifestyle, so it is just a matter of their sins being more apparent, rather than more severe. If thinking about what goes on behind closed doors makes you uncomfortable--don't think about it!
For instance, given the number of people who commit adultery, it is sadly the case that there are likely many such people in your neighborhood. Yet most of them hide this fact very well--even from their spouses! To you, they may seem like moral and upright people, yet in my opinion, they are committing a far, far worse crime than are your gay neighbors. (If you don't agree that adultery is worse, you can certainly imagine other crimes that are far too common, such as child abuse or rape.)
Sadly, I think that some people (and I am not grouping you in this category here!) use religion to justify their prejudices and discrimination. Personally, I think that you should not only be civil, you should be friendly to these people (as well as to everyone). If they eventually discover that your religion condemns their behavior, they will respect you all the more, since you would be truly living the Muslim lifestyle and acting in a way that is markedly different from other religious people.
I am reminded of the following story of Mohammed (I assume this is from a hadith, so it may be inaccurate, of course, but it is definitely in the spirit of Islam). As the story goes, every day Mohammed would pass by the home of a certain Jewish woman who disliked him, and she would throw hot ashes (I think) on him. Yet he did not change his path and patiently passed by her house every day. One day, she did not throw anything on him, so out of concern, he went to see if she was ill (and in fact she was). When she saw that he treated her with such kindness in the face of her cruelty, she realized the truth of his message and converted to Islam.
Donna
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Also--I disagree with Saladin that you should actively speak out against their behavior. Your neighbors are painfully aware that most major religions condemn their behavior; yet another person pointing this out to them will only antagonize them. If it comes up in discussion, there is no point in hiding your views, but why would they bring up such a thing?
As to whether Lot would be friends with someone who was gay... that is an interesting question. Perhaps the comparison is not relevant, since Lot's spiritual level is far, far greater than that of you and I. I think that someone on that level would probably only have friends who were deeply committed to God. So he would probably not have any atheist friends, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a Muslim having atheist friends (and sadly many of my friends are atheist or agnostic). Obviously I don't have the bond with them that I do with people who do believe in God, but all of my friends are moral people, so in a sense they have some understanding of God's will.
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Also--I disagree with Saladin that you should actively speak out against their behavior. Your neighbors are painfully aware that most major religions condemn their behavior; yet another person pointing this out to them will only antagonize them. If it comes up in discussion, there is no point in hiding your views, but why would they bring up such a thing?
what if it never comes up in discussion ? u never tell them then ? how did Lot condemn the behaviour of his people ? did the topic just come up in discussion ?
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Salaams Saladin, Donna, All
Maybe what Donna means is that one should not condemn others straight in their faces unless he himself is perfect as perfect as a prophet can be!
Especially when the subject is not being in discussion and so different opinions are not welcomed!Is my conclusion right, Donna?
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Also--I disagree with Saladin that you should actively speak out against their behavior. Your neighbors are painfully aware that most major religions condemn their behavior; yet another person pointing this out to them will only antagonize them. If it comes up in discussion, there is no point in hiding your views, but why would they bring up such a thing?
what if it never comes up in discussion ? u never tell them then ? how did Lot condemn the behaviour of his people ? did the topic just come up in discussion ?
Lot was a prophet, and as such he had different duties than we do. The story of Lot is meant to illustrate that homosexuality is wrong, not that we should emulate his behavior. No one other than Lot was telling those people that they should stop what they were doing, but this is not the case in our society--everyone is telling gays they are bad and they have to tolerate quite a bit of abuse.
By this reasoning, anytime God commanded some prophet to do something, we should assume we are to do the same? We don't go around preaching the 10 commandments to everyone, after all.
Saladin, neither you nor I are without sin. It is not for us to tell others what to do. We can guide those that we think will listen, but it is not our job to be morality police. What purpose would it serve to tell those people that they should stop what they are doing? Do you think it will change their minds? This is something they've heard countless times throughout their lives, what makes you think your words will have any effect other than to upset someone unnecessarily?
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Salaams Saladin, Donna, All
Maybe what Donna means is that one should not condemn others straight in their faces unless he himself is perfect as perfect as a prophet can be!
Especially when the subject is not being in discussion and so different opinions are not welcomed!Is my conclusion right, Donna?
Yes, Taj, that is what I mean. In particular, this behavior harms only the people involved--it is not like other sins that cause harm to others (e.g. lying, stealing, etc.) Also, our words would be useless to these people--they have heard the same thing countless times before and have not changed their behavior. I don't know a reference off the top of my head, but I know there are verses in the Koran that say you should not try to convince others about God when it is very clear that they will not listen.
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Lot was a prophet, and as such he had different duties than we do. The story of Lot is meant to illustrate that homosexuality is wrong, not that we should emulate his behavior.
we are supposed to follow in the examples set by the prophets .
By this reasoning, anytime God commanded some prophet to do something, we should assume we are to do the same?
what i said above . examples have been set for us in the koran . we follow them.
What purpose would it serve to tell those people that they should stop what they are doing? Do you think it will change their minds?
lets hope it does . maybe they will fear God .
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I don't know a reference off the top of my head, but I know there are verses in the Koran that say you should not try to convince others about God when it is very clear that they will not listen.
yes there is a verse that says like dont waste your time on those who dont want to listen .
so if it becomes clear that they dont want to listen we leave them . yes .
