If there was a Country with Quranic system than how?

[unknownuser]

Hello Ali Omar,

Why such a cynical view, Omar?

Did God separate a plot of land and give it to a particular individual?

Yes, he did. He gave ancient Canaan to the Isralite, and sanctioned ethnic cleasing of the native inhabitants, the philistine, so that Canaan will become the "Promised Land". So it was God who started it all Omar, all this taking over of land business!
Just kiddin -)

Well, it is obvious that you have more faith in the human conciousness and rightousness than me. Maybe I have lived too long and seen too much to have too many illusions left?

Does God create Evil human beings? I don't think so. Do you?
If we are not created Evil, how do we become Evil?

There is nothing wrong in believing in the essential Goodness of Humanity. If you view Humanity as Evil it becomes Evil. If you view humanity as Good then it becomes Good. The thoughts of today creates the worlds of tomorrow. Good thoughts will create Good society.
Evil thoughts creates world of death and destruction.

Since a very long time back in history we have relied on our ?Reason Alone?. I do not see that we have come very far on the road to self-realisation; we have as many self-righteous rulers as ever, probably more so.

The Rule of tyrannical, divinely appointed Kings are over. We are stamping out dictatorships all around the world? Is this not progress? In Pakistan I could get killed for critcising the Quran or the Prophet, under democracy we have the freedom of thought and personal liberty. Is this not progress?

We have managed to destroy large areas of the Earth and the various life forms in it, and we are still going on along the same path.

Yes, out of ignorance we have done a lot of destruction to our planet. But it is through our understanding that we can fix the damage we have done.

We have created a myriade of illnesses which never existed before.

Really? We have that power do we to create something that did exist before? I thought only God had this kind of power?

What we put into our bodies today, as food, is of less quality than it ever was.

Really? Eat organic food Ali Omar, they taste better -)
Just kidding! -) Become a farmer Ali Omar and grow some good food stuff and I will come and buy from you -)

Air, water and the soil itself is heavily polluted and poisenous to a large extent. These are just a few of innumerable examples of destruction where our ?Reason? has guided us.

And you can't see any beneficial thing that our "Reason" has given us?
This is very cynical Ali Omar. Try bit harder and you might find something of the Good that our Reason given us. Did you know it was our intellect that came up with the Idea of the Monotheistic God?

Our selfrightous rulers and slave keepers today are not using so much iron chains and whips etc., as they used to, that is correct. Today it is called economy and ownership, fences, borders, guns and bombs, starvation, and so on and so forth. We are controlled in a much
more subtle way than in the earlier days, but nevertheless very effective.

Really? Utopian communism with its state ownership failed miserably Ali Omar! Communism challenged the world in delivering food and prosperity to every individual. And it delivered none. And it destroyed individual freedom and liberty in the process. Democracy on the other hand delivered more prosperity to more people in a society than communism ever could. It also enhanced individual freedom and liberty.

The modern dictators are named Lewis, Adidas, McDonalds, VISA, CBS, Federal Reserves, and ?a million? others.

Corporations are the new reality in this world Ali Omar. Learn to deal with this reality. Just like Industrial Revolution in Britain was a new reality for the world in the 17th and 18th Century. What do you want to be? A luddite? or someone who embraces new challenges?

Anway lets discuss all these things... -)

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Dear Lote Tree,

Yes, I can see that I do come across as ?somewhat? cynical.
Well you are right; God is to blame for the whole thing.
Without God, no problem!

I keep wondering, who owned the various plots of land around the World from the beginning? Who owned the various resources that exist on Earth? Did somebody pay God in cash, or did God take checks, or maybe God accepts VISA? mrgreen

I believe God created all there is. What is ?evil? to one may be ?good? to another, but the Qur?an sets certain limits that are general, and not up to our own ?reason?.
So, how do we become evil? If God did not give us all possibilities we would not have ?good? or ?evil?. We would also not have ?balanced?.
I believe every one of us have the possibility to become good, evil and balanced.
Good, evil and balanced, in general, towards the system of God, that is.

So to behave in an exclusively ?evil? way is to behave so that everyone or everything in the Universe is suffering. To behave in an exclusively ?good? way is to behave so that everything and everyone in the Universe is benefitting.
God knows this is not possible for us and the Qur?an tells us how to behave in a balanced way.
This is what the message is all about.

Lote Tree

There is nothing wrong in believing in the essential Goodness of Humanity. If you view Humanity as Evil it becomes Evil. If you view humanity as Good then it becomes Good.

Absolutely correct!
But the reason is that if you look at something to find evil you will find it, if you look at something to find good you will find it.

There are various ways to uphold dictatorships; it may be through physical power, economical power or power over resources, or power over minds.
There may not be so many dictatorships upheld through physical power as before, but what about the economical (resources) power and the power over minds?

What is democracy?

I should not have used the word ?create? concerning illnesses, it is more appropriate to say that due to our negligence we have acted in such a way that the reaction from God?s system was illnesses. So these are results of our actions.

Through our understanding we have not done much to correct things have we? Is the rainforest growing back, are the oilreserves being filled up again, are the oceans becoming cleaner, is the air pollution becoming less, and so on and so on???.

Farming, good idea, I will ask God for a plot of land and start as soon as I get a positive answer from God. pray

Do we really believe in a monotheistic God? Has TV and videogames disappeared, is McDonalds gone, no more $$, no bigger car, boat, house etc etc? How many ?gods? do we actually have?

What is this freedom I hear so often mentioned?
And how much freedom do the people of the World actually have nowadays?
And where?

Corporations are the new reality in this world, yes; they are the new dictatorships in the world today.
We accept it, we do not deal with it, but we allow it and adjust to it, just like people has always done under other forms of dictatorships. Only difference is that you could manage to run away from the earlier ones, wheras we have hardly anywhere to run nowadays, they are world wide, and have millions of arms.
Progress you say? Well, maybe so.

New challenges, OK, are we handling them according to the way God is telling us?
Is the world better off then before?
What exactly is better?

Now I better take a break, this is becoming worse and worse. Maybe I am on a more positive note tomorrow? zzz

Best regds

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

Hello Ali Omar,

Yes, I can see that I do come across as ?somewhat? cynical.

Don't worry. We all go through these kind of cynical phases in our lives
-)

Well you are right; God is to blame for the whole thing.
Without God, no problem!

Now Omar, we shall not blame God for anything. We shall not take God's name in vain -)
We shall stand up on our two feet and take charge of our own life. We are going to be responsible for our actions.

I keep wondering, who owned the various plots of land around the World from the beginning? Who owned the various resources that exist on Earth?

"Ownership" is a human concept Omar, and it is a very human invention borne out of greed. Greed can only be overcome by cultivating and nurturing human compassion in ourself and in others.

Did somebody pay God in cash, or did God take checks, or maybe God accepts VISA?

It is not visa Omar but it is Zakat -)

I believe God created all there is. What is ?evil? to one may be ?good? to another, but the Qur?an sets certain limits that are general, and not up to our own ?reason?.

One person's "Evil" is another person's "Good"? can you elaborate this?

What are those limits in Quran Omar that is not found elsewhere?

So, how do we become evil? If God did not give us all possibilities we would not have ?good? or
?evil?. We would also not have ?balanced?.

So Evil originated with God?

So to behave in an exclusively ?evil? way is to behave so that everyone or everything in the Universe is suffering. To behave in an exclusively ?good? way is to behave so that everything and
everyone in the Universe is benefitting.

God knows this is not possible for us and the Qur?an tells us how to behave in a balanced way.
This is what the message is all about.

So why did pefect God create imperfect beings like us?

Lote Tree
There is nothing wrong in believing in the essential Goodness of Humanity. If you view Humanity as Evil it becomes Evil. If you view humanity as Good then it becomes Good.

Absolutely correct!
But the reason is that if you look at something to find evil you will find it, if you look at something to find good you will find it.

The best thing is to look for the Good then and cultivate and nurture this quality in us and others?

There are various ways to uphold dictatorships; it may be through physical power, economical power or power over resources, or power over minds. There may not be so many dictatorships upheld through
physical power as before, but what about the economical (resources) power and the power over minds?

One at a time Omar! we have just overcome physical dictatorship so far. We shall accompolish others in due course. Let me give you an example Monsanto Corporation was brought down to its knees in Europe over public fears over Genetically Modified Crops. In the end they had to abandon their whole European operation. That is a very small sucess, small but it is a start.

What is democracy?

Democracy is goverments by the People for the People. But generally Democracy is elected Dictatorship. Democracy is Tyranny of the Majority on the Minority. Democracy is not Utopia. Democracy is the best of the worst types of Government. But the one good thing about a Elected Dictatorship is that there is possibility of removing them from their job by peaceful means.

Although Democracy is best of the worst types of governments, it has been very successful in delivering economic prosperity and personal liberty to the individuals. And those have adopted democracy like defeated nation Japan have achieved spectacular results. But it is true also economic prosperity in itself is not good indicator but democracy does give personal liberty and freedom of thought to the individual as opposed to dictatorship where you could have your head chopped off for
speaking your mind! Having lived under a oppressive government I prefer any form of "democracy" than anything else.

I should not have used the word ?create? concerning illnesses, it is more appropriate to say that

due to our negligence we have acted in such a way that the reaction from God?s system was illnesses.

So these are results of our actions.

But we have saved millions through advances in medicine. We have eliminated smallpox, cholera and other deadly diseases. We have brought malaria under control. Malaria alone has killed more people on this planet than all the deaths caused in the World Wars. And Malaria is God's creation. Is it our fault that God's power of "evolution" to bacteria and viral life is always outwitting humanity in their battle to control them and save lives?

Through our understanding we have not done much to correct things have we? Is the rainforest growing back, are the oilreserves being filled up again, are the oceans becoming cleaner, is the air pollution becoming less, and so on and so on???.

We have but in slow degrees but it is happening. We have it in our power to make desert bloom Omar. We can take an wasteland and with our Engineering ability and technical ingenuity we can transform it into an "Garden of Eden" in matter of months. And have you heard about "London Smog" in the early 19th Century? The deadly smog of London which caused so much respiratory diseases? The Clean Air act
cleaned it all up! So WE can do these things!!!

Farming, good idea, I will ask God for a plot of land and start as soon as I get a positive answer from God.

Why do you have to ask God for everything Ali Omar?
That is lazy -) God is a busy man/woman -)

God has given you all the ability to take charge of own life. So take charge of your own life and take responsibility for your actions. Don't ask God to do it for you. Go and do it yourself -) True sign of maturity as individuals, Omar, is when we are able to stand up on our two feet and be counted as an individual...

Do we really believe in a monotheistic God?

I said it was the human intellect that arrived at the notion of Monotheistic God. Recall Abraham?

Has TV and videogames disappeared, is McDonalds gone, no more $$, no bigger car, boat, house etc etc? How many ?gods? do we actually have?

What is important is how many Gods you have Omar?
If people have multiple Gods why should that matter to you?

What is this freedom I hear so often mentioned?

Here is an example Do you want someone to tell you what to believe in?
If NO then that is FREEDOM.

And how much freedom do the people of the World actually have nowadays? And where?

In some countries NONE. In Europe a lot of freedom. This freedom allows individual to be anything they want to be.

Corporations are the new reality in this world, yes; they are the new dictatorships in the world today.

This is a "luddite" mentality Omar! In the Industrial Revolutions in 17th and 18th Century "luddites" went around smashing power-looms in England because they could not deal with reality of the Industrial Revolution.

But MuckDonald" is no dictator to me Omar. I never eat at MuckDonalds.
The food is crap! And you can stop eating there too -)

We accept it, we do not deal with it, but we allow it and adjust to it, just like people has always done under other forms of dictatorships. Only difference is that you could manage to run away from the earlier ones, wheras we have hardly anywhere to run nowadays, they are world wide, and have millions of arms. Progress you say? Well, maybe so.

Can't run away?...erm Corporate Airlines can fly you to any part of the world these days! -)

And you say people could run away from earlier dictatorships? I think they got shot trying to escape to west from Communism - Do you remember the Berlin Wall? And another thing MuckDonalds is not going to nuke you if you refuse to eat their foods! -)

Is the world better off then before? What exactly is better?

May be you should ponder that question first and see if you could find anything?

Now I better take a break, this is becoming worse and worse. Maybe I am on a more positive note
tomorrow?

OK chap, take a break... -)

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Dear Lote Tree,

Lote

We are going to be responsible for our actions.

Yeah, that?ll be the day! rotfl

Evil vs. good.
A Palestinian suicide bomber detonate a bomb in Israel. The common Palestinian thinks this is great, a good deed, while the Israelis might have another opinion and retaliate by destroying Palestinian houses and killing the families living there. Israelis will think this is great, while the Palestinians might have another opinion.
Anywhere in the world similar situations may occur, and many places it has happened, or is happening.
Remember the twin towers in New York? In many communities people were, literally, ?dancing in the streets?. Good or evil?

So then, what is evil and what is good?
The Qur?an sets a basic limit, and says that you shall not kill.
Then people have interpreted the ?loop hole? that says you may kill in justice, as a free ticket to kill whenever you feel it is just. This is a result of our ?reason?.

We are not imperfect beings, we are perfect as human beings, but we are not perfect as gods.

We have not overcome physical dictatorship; we have only exchanged it for something else, in those parts of the world where it does not still flourish.

Your description of democracy is a fair statement, ?by peaceful means? meaning ?do not chop their head off in a swift motion?, do it slowly so that nobody understand that you do it.

I bet the Dutch film producer who was stabbed in broad daylight didn?t quite feel he had freedom of speech?
Freedom to opt out of a military duty that you do not agree with?
If you have lived under a physically oppressive government, you may manage to get away.
How do you get away from rulers suppressing your mental abilities or controlling all economic and natural resources of the Earth?

We have saved millions through advances in medicine, and we have killed many more millions through our pollution and misuse of the planet Earth.
Malaria is far from being under control my friend. In Africa alone more than a million people died last year of the disease. I hardly consider that to be ?under control?.
Also in our area of the world we have a large number of deaths each year.

And how many of the various ?new? deceases do we control? Some of the most ?popular? ones right now are ?HIV? and ?SARS?, not to forget stressrelated illnesses that alone has crippled or killed more people than all other sicknesses and world wars put together.
Starvation is also killing something like 5-6 million children every year.
Progress you say? Maybe so??..

The deadly smog of London was created by man, and then reduced by man, but not back to the state it was before we created it. Progress you say? Maybe so??..

Desert turned into ?Garden of Eden??
Well, the truth is that deserts are expanding. As an example, in China the deserts are growing at a rate of 1,160 square miles annually.
What do we do with our knowledge? Keep it in the closet?
There is a great difference between what we can and what we do. What we ?can? does not save a single soul, or anything else, only what we ?do?.

Well, when I refer to God for purchase of land, it is to me something like going back to the ?owner?. According to the Qur?an everything and everyone belongs to God.
When I want to buy a car I don?t approach someone who has rented a car and ask to buy it from him?

Actually, I don?t care how many gods each of us have. I believe most of us have some additional types of gods stuck away here and there.

Do you believe in paying taxes, some of which goes to help kill people? If not, do you have the freedom to say NO?
An American watches the news on a TV sation in US, a Frenchman in France, a Brittone in Britain and a German in Germany.
Do they all tell the same story?
I just mentioned socalled ?western countries?, what if we drag in other parts of the world?
You are free to believe in any one of them, but actually you don?t have much other choice then to believe what the newscaster from each country has decided.
Where is your freedom?
All the media in the world is ?helping? to form your opinion, do you think you are not influenced?

Again, what is freedom? Freedom of speech, freedom from poverty, freedom to breathe unpolluted air, freedom of thought, freedom from fear, freedom???.. roll

Thank you for the freedom to opt out of Mc(or Muck)Donalds.
But ?Where have all the organic food gone?????.when will they ever learn?? My grandparents used all kinds of organic foods; there were no special counters or divisions for organic and unorganic. Progress you say? Maybe so???

Right, Corporate Airlines take you anywhere; even there you find them, like lice.
No, the corporations does not have to waste any bombs to control you, they have more subtle ways.
Isn?t it much smarter to suck everything out of a human before throwing him/her away, instead of shooting him/her like they did at the Berlin wall?
Progress you say? Maybe so????

Actually, after many years of pondering, I can not find that the world is better off today than it was before, on the contrary, my friend.
If you find anything, please let me know. What exactly is better now than it used to be?

Well even the break did not seem to help, looks like I am still on the same track.

The original question was ?a country with Qur?anic system, then how??
Well, I still wonder. I can not see that the borders around contries have done the world any good, so how would a world without borders be like?
Who would object to it, and why?

Best regds

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

Hello Omar,

Dear Lote Tree,
Lote

We are going to be responsible for our actions.

Yeah, that?ll be the day! rotfl

Are you not responsible for your actions?
If not, who is Omar?

Evil vs. good.
A Palestinian suicide bomber detonate a bomb in Israel. The common Palestinian thinks this is great, a good deed, while the Israelis might have another opinion and retaliate by destroying Palestinian houses and killing the families living there. Israelis will think this is great, while the Palestinians might have another opinion.
Anywhere in the world similar situations may occur, and many places it has happened, or is happening.
Remember the twin towers in New York? In many communities people were, literally, ?dancing in the streets?. Good or evil?
So then, what is evil and what is good?

Both actions are Evil. Both are wrong. Two wrongs does not make a right Omar.

The Qur?an sets a basic limit, and says that you shall not kill.

Omar, do you have to be told in a scripture that killing is wrong?

I don't murder people because the scritpure says not to, nor do I murder people out of the Fear of getting punished with Death Penalty or Prison, or eternal torment in hell. But I understand the "truth" that murder is wrong.

Then people have interpreted the ?loop hole? that says you may kill in justice, as a free ticket to kill whenever you feel it is just. This is a result of our ?reason?.

Sorry Ali Omar, this has nothing to do with "Reason"!!! Wake up, chap! -)
It is due to the blind obedience to Scripture, Hadiths and Sunnah. It is all to do with cowardly abdication of your God-given reason to your local Mullah, the Priest and the countless Brainless-Less Drongos with long beards that pass off as men of Piety!!! No Omar, if people use their "Reason" then they would see these people as they truley are.

We are not imperfect beings, we are perfect as human beings, but we are not perfect as gods.

But we can all aspire to the perfection of Gods?

We have not overcome physical dictatorship; we have only exchanged it for something else, in those parts of the world where it does not still flourish.

We have Omar. Certainly in the parts of the world I live in. May be not where you live perhaps. But it is matter of time perhaps -)

Your description of democracy is a fair statement, ?by peaceful means? meaning ?do not chop their head off in a swift motion?, do it slowly so that nobody understand that you do it.

Do it slowly so that nobody understands it? Are you descending into paranoia too?

I bet the Dutch film producer who was stabbed in broad daylight didn?t quite feel he had freedom of speech?

Is that guy who made the film "Submission"? He was called Theo Van Gogh.
What are you saying here, Ali Omar? That he should not have made the film?
And who killed him? He lived in a country where he had the Freedom to make those kinds of films, just like Francis Ford Coppola was able to make the "Last Temptation of Christ" and Monty Python "The Life of Brian" both were affront to Christianity. The Python film being comical criticism. But no Christian Fanatic tried to take Francis Coppola's life or the lives of cast members of Monty Pythons! But in Pakistan or other Traditional Muslim countries, even simple criticism of Koran, hadith or sunnah will merit you a death sentence! Was it not an Islamic Fanatic who ended Theo Van Gogh's life?

Freedom to opt out of a military duty that you do not agree with?

I don't think there is any military conscription in any of the European countries.

If you have lived under a physically oppressive government, you may manage to get away.

So that they can send spies to kill you with an poisned umbrella?

How do you get away from rulers suppressing your mental abilities or controlling all economic and natural resources of the Earth?

You are free to educate yourself Ali Omar! As Bob Marley says "Emancipate yourself from mental Slavery. Only we can free our Minds!"

We have saved millions through advances in medicine, and we have killed many more millions through our pollution and misuse of the planet Earth.

Give me an example of how pollution killed as many people as malaria?

Malaria is far from being under control my friend. In Africa alone more than a million people died last year of the disease. I hardly consider that to be ?under control?.

This figure has come down from all time high of 8 million a year.

not to forget stressrelated illnesses that alone has crippled or killed more people than all other sicknesses and world wars put together.

Really? -) Be careful Omar don't stress yourself. You might end up dead.
Just kiddin -)

The deadly smog of London was created by man, and then reduced by man, but not back to the state it was before we created it. Progress you say? Maybe so??..

Man created the problem. Man resolved it. So we can fix problems -)

Desert turned into ?Garden of Eden?? Well, the truth is that deserts are expanding. As an example, in China the deserts are growing at a rate of 1,160 square miles annually.

I said we have the engineering ability and technical know how to make the desert into Garden of Eden. Just like Israelis have made the desert bloom again.

As for deserts expanding - is that not God's doing?

Well, when I refer to God for purchase of land, it is to me something like going back to the ?owner?. According to the Qur?an everything and everyone belongs to God.

Whether everything belongs to God or not Omar, you need to take charge of your own life. Take responsibility for your actions.

When I want to buy a car I don?t approach someone who has rented a car and ask to buy it from him?

OK chap you keeping asking your owner.

Actually, I don?t care how many gods each of us have. I believe most of us have some additional types of gods stuck away here and there.

So what is your problem with other people having many Gods?

Do you believe in paying taxes, some of which goes to help kill people? If not, do you have the freedom to say NO?

I believe in paying taxes for the benefit of all the members of the society that I live in. And yes I can say No to paying taxes by electing a different Government to rule our affairs.

An American watches the news on a TV sation in US, a Frenchman in France, a Brittone in Britain and a German in Germany. Do they all tell the same story?

Why should they? We don't have world government yet Ali Omar!
You should tell your own story -)

I just mentioned socalled ?western countries?, what if we drag in other parts of the world?
You are free to believe in any one of them, but actually you don?t have much other choice then to believe what the newscaster from each country has decided.

I don't have to believe in anything. Thats the beauty of freedom!

All the media in the world is ?helping? to form your opinion, do you think you are not influenced?

No. I form my own opinion. This is called Individuality!

Again, what is freedom? Freedom of speech, freedom from poverty, freedom to breathe unpolluted air, freedom of thought, freedom from fear, freedom???.. roll

I told you Freedom is when you don't want someone else to tell you what to believe in and how to live your life.

Thank you for the freedom to opt out of Mc(or Muck)Donalds.

You don't have to eat McDonalds too Omar!

No, the corporations does not have to waste any bombs to control you, they have more subtle ways.

How did you managed to develop so much Parnoia Ali Omar?

Actually, after many years of pondering, I can not find that the world is better off today than it was before, on the contrary, my friend.

Well that is just sad -(
1400 hundred years of your Glorious Quran has not built up Quranic Utopia has it?
Whereas 50 years of incoporating democratic principles into their society has allowed defeated Nation Japan to become one of the most prosperous and successful countries in the world.

If you find anything, please let me know. What exactly is better now than it used to be?

There is no point Omar. You might aswell sit on your lazy backside and keep asking God to solve all your problems -)

Well even the break did not seem to help, looks like I am still on the same track.

No I think it has not. Perhaps you should continue on this cynical path for a while...

The original question was ?a country with Qur?anic system, then how??

Well, I still wonder. I can not see that the borders around contries have done the world any good, so how would a world without borders be like? Who would object to it, and why?

There is a glimpse of world without borders. It is called the Internet...
Is the Internet fully detailed in the Quran Omar or did it come out of God -given human reasoning?

Regards,

[Elena]

Peace,

What is democracy?

Democracy is ...

In addition,
permanent justification of the power.

[Ali_Omar]

Dear Lote Tree,

So, when is killing right? Why does so many think that killing, or other autrocities is good in so many instances?
Because it does occur, even by people who are considered good. Why do they do it? Because they are actually evil?
Do they need somebody to tell them that this is wrong? I know it, you know it, but they don?t seem to know it?

Why do people do horrendous things to eachother then, if it is not their reasoning telling them to? Maybe it is lack of reason? Is it blocked by someone or something, as you suggest?

Yes, it was a fanatic who killed Theo van Gogh. Did it make any difference to van Gogh why or how? What I am asking is, is this freedom? If not, we can conclude that freedom is not in Holland, at least not for everybody. Please tell me, where exactly is it then?

Yes, ?emancipate yourself from mental slavery?, how? When is our reasoning sound?
When are we emancipated?

Does a drop from 8 million to 1 million lives lost, mean we have control? You mean, as long as it is not increasing we have fixed it?
Man creates problems, thereafter we can almost fix it, but not quite. So what I am asking is, are we better off before or after we have created and almost ?fixed? a problem?

Deserts expanding! Then we agree? If not for God, no problems! (irony)
Sure, we take responsibility for our actions. (irony again)
Now, who is responsible for not putting our knowledge to use to stop the expansion of the deserts? You, me? Or maybe, somehow, we do NOT have the responsibility, somebody else has? Who?

Repeated transmission I do not care how many gods everyone has. Please feel free to have millions or none.

Lote
And yes I can say No to paying taxes by electing a different Government to rule our affairs.

OK, I understand you are happy with the existing one, if not you just stop paying taxes and get a new government. I want to migrate, where is this place?

And you are not influenced by what is happening around you? Great, lucky you!

Japanese democracy? Japanese progress due to democracy? rotfl
Sorry I?m still trying to recover.
But I have another joke that I think is just as good.
Chinese democracy. Chinese progress due to democracy.
As China is the fastest growing economy in the world, what else could it be than democracy there?

Well, maybe it would be wise to take a closer look into the Japaneese society and how it was rebuilt? I think you find democracy playing a somewhat minor role, to say the least.
And maybe the same is true in the case of China?

It just hit me, you talk about taking responsibility for you actions, and you don?t mention to take responsibility for what you don?t do.
A great philosophy!
How can you take responsibility for the deserts expanding, for various new sicknesses in the world, starving population, pollution etc. etc., when this is someby elses responsibility, and you therefore haven?t done anything?
Thank God for all these ?others? who have the responsibility for all these things, so that you and I don?t have to do it. lol

You are not a waiter of profession are you? I?ve heard the expression ?not my table?, from that cathegory. Is this your philosophy? Take care of yourself and let others take care of themselves?

Aaaahhhh, at last, a glimpse of a world without boundries, Internet!
Back to the original question, can this be a base for further cooperation to work towards a world where we are implementing rules to live by, according to a balanced and responsible system? Then how?

Best regards

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

Hello Omar,

Dear Lote Tree,
So, when is killing right? Why does so many think that killing, or other autrocities is good in so many instances?

No killing is right. Full Stop. Some killings are indeed tragic. You deal with it.

Do they need somebody to tell them that this is wrong? I know it, you know it, but they don?t seem to know it?

I thought you needed your scripture to be told that killing is wrong chap?
But I "understand" murder to be wrong without the scripture.

Why do people do horrendous things to eachother then, if it is not their reasoning telling them to? Maybe it is lack of reason? Is it blocked by someone or something, as you suggest?

It is when we let others to think for us, when we abdicate our reason to others Omar then things like Crusades, holocuast, Spanish Inquistion etc. happens.

Yes, it was a fanatic who killed Theo van Gogh. Did it make any difference to van Gogh why or how?

I don't understand you on this Omar. Are you saying his FREEDOM to make "Submission" was useless because he happened to be killed my a Islamic Fanatic?

What I am asking is, is this freedom?

I don't understand you. The guy was murdered. His right to life was ended by a Islamic nutter because he hated Theo Van Goh's FREEDOM!

If not, we can conclude that freedom is not in Holland, at least not for everybody. Please tell me, where exactly is it then?

I don't understand you chap. Freedom is there in Holland as opposed to in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.

Yes, ?emancipate yourself from mental slavery?, how?

How? Come on chap get off your backside and do some serious thinking and study!!! Don't be lazy -)

Does a drop from 8 million to 1 million lives lost, mean we have control? You mean, as long as it is not increasing we have fixed it?

We make little progress Omar! That is how things work. We don't have a magic wand to make an Quranic Utopia of your dreams.

Now, who is responsible for not putting our knowledge to use to stop the expansion of the deserts? You, me? Or maybe, somehow, we do NOT have the responsibility, somebody else has? Who?

Oh Omar you are another of those Idealist aren't you? and you also perhaps are about 18 years of age and never had a girlfriend and perhaps also suffer from sever acne? Yeah?

The Idealist problem is that they have to make everyone like they are. Make the world in their image! They want to make the world into an Utopia. Look chap Utopia is an Ideal that Humanity strives for. It can never be a reality! But you will say Quran can make Utopia but you fail to see that 1400 years of Quran has not helped has it!

The second problem with Idealist is that in order to make the the world in their Image they destroy Individuals Freedom and Liberty. Look what happened to Communist Utopia around the world!!!

So I say to you again Omar. Take charge of your OWN LIFE, take responsibility for your OWN ACTIONS and encourage others to take charge of their own life and take responsibility for their actions. Develop yourself as individuals and come together as communities. The world does not owe you a living! You have to live your own life. And waiting for God to solve all your problem is not going to help. You do God's work when you help yourself and those that you have around you. You do Gods work when cultivate and nurture human compassion in yourself and those that you have around you. This is the way to go. Doing your bit for yourself and those that you have around you. This is not a selfish approach. This a pragmatic approach. This way you help a lot of people instead of trying to help all the people in the world and failing to do so and end up being cynical about the nature of humanity.

Lote
And yes I can say No to paying taxes by electing a different Government to rule our affairs.

OK, I understand you are happy with the existing one, if not you just stop paying taxes and get a new government. I want to migrate, where is this place?

This place is within yourself. You need to discover it first and then you can migrate to it.

Japanese democracy? Japanese progress due to democracy? rotfl
Sorry I?m still trying to recover.

Yes chap. Japan was a feudal society before they were defeated in second world war. Read some history.

But I have another joke that I think is just as good.
Chinese democracy. Chinese progress due to democracy. As China is the fastest growing economy in the world, what else could it be than democracy there?

Here is a better joke. Pakistan, a country which was created from India to establish a Quranic Utopia. What has happened to this? It has not progressed much has it compared to neigbouring India! While India becomes fast growing IT hub in the world while pakistan is hanging people for criticising the Quran and the Prophet.

It just hit me, you talk about taking responsibility for you actions, and you don?t mention to take responsibility for what you don?t do.
A great philosophy!

Hey? How can I take responsibilty for someone else's actions as an individual? Why should I take responsibility for things that I don't do?

How can you take responsibility for the deserts expanding, for various new sicknesses in the world, starving population, pollution etc. etc., when this is someby elses responsibility, and you therefore haven?t done anything?

How I can take responsibility for desert expanding?
I can only take responsibility for the deserts I create.

Thank God for all these ?others? who have the responsibility for all these things, so that you and I don?t have to do it. lol

Oh my heart is bleeding for you Omar -)
This is the Idealist problem isn't, the pain of the desert expanding! Hey chap wake up. Do some useful thing - help yourself and those that around you and encourage others to do the same. This is pragmatic approach. This way you bring up people to be responsible. This is not a selfish approach but pragmatic. Communist Utopia promised so much to all the people but in the end it destroyed peoples freedom and liberty and also the environment. And failed to deliver the prosperity it promised.

You are not a waiter of profession are you? I?ve heard the expression ?not my table?, from that cathegory. Is this your philosophy? Take care of yourself and let others take care of themselves?

My philosophy is taking charge of your own life and taking responsibility for your actions and ecouraging others to do the same so that we grow up to be responsible and pragmatic. What is so wrong with helping and encouraging others to take responsibility for their life and actions? What is so selfish about that? I think it is very dignifiying as human beings to be able to stand up on your own two feet and take charge of our own life and being responsible for our actions in the society that you live in.

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Dear Lote Tree,

You have really made my day. 18 years old! How can I ever thank you?
My grandchildren will look at me in a different way, I?m sure!

To my mind the Qur?an is not a magic book. In fact, it can not do any thing at all, unless maybe it falls off a shelf and hits you in the head.

I see that you fancy the expression ?Utopia?. And, of course, if you look at everything good as ?Utopia? then it becomes ?Utopia?.
However, I quite agree, the World does not owe us anything; actually the World does not even need us.

What you do not seem to understand my friend, is that whatever you do in your life affect others, not only in your near vicinity, but maybe on the other side of the globe.

Your ?pragmatic? view on life, as you express it, is indeed selfish if you only apply it on yourself, and do not see the facts of life as a member of the human race.
Maybe one day when you have travelled a bit and seen a larger part of the rest of the World and lived amongst people from many different cultures, you might just get another view on things.
It is much better to go to Japan and live there for a while, than to read about it. I think it will prove much more educational. I can absolutely recommend it.

When the society that you live in is destroyed by natural disaster, your crops are destroyd by draught, your children are dying from famin or sickness, the values of your land are taken by others and so on and so forth, how do you shoulder your responsibility? Or do you just say ?sorry, not my table?? Being pragmatic that is, when facts are that you can not help yourself or your own family?

Or do you suddenly discover that there are people outside your community that you can ask for help? What do you do? Are you suddenly including ?others? in your ?pragmatic? view?
Do you include them when you need help, but exclude them when you don?t?
Selfish? Yes, sir, I would call it exactly that.

If you continue to live in your own rosy little world, one day you may wake up and find it less than rosy. But, as I said, this, my friend requires life experience, something you seem to lack.
Please, for your own benefit, do not use words you don?t understand, use your brains instead.

I hope somebody can take up the question posed by ?shamsul-arefin? and try to look more closely at it. I find that a bit more serious and challenging.

Best regards

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

You have really made my day. 18 years old! How can I ever thank you?
My grandchildren will look at me in a different way, I?m sure!

Hello Omar,

A witty reply Omar! I like it -)
but probably I am right arn't I?! -)
If not in the age sense - but in the sense that you still have the Idealism of a 18 year old who has never had a girlfriend and suffers from acne!
Hey I am kiddin here -)

If not 18 then an Old fart perhaps?
Just joking -)

To my mind the Qur?an is not a magic book. In fact, it can not do any thing at all, unless maybe it falls off a shelf and hits you in the head.

Will that be regarded as Divine intervention? -)

What you do not seem to understand my friend, is that whatever you do in your life affect others, not only in your near vicinity, but maybe on the other side of the globe.

Can you not see the logic of it? Whatever do in your life affects others precisely. That is why YOU need to, and not sombody else, to TAKE CHARGE YOUR LIFE and be RESPONSIBLE for your OWN actions as an Individual and to the society that you live in. And you must also help and ENCOURAGE others to take charge of their LIFE and take RESPONSIBILITY for their actions. You must cultivate and nurture human compassion in yourself and in those that you have around you. This way you grow up to be responsible and pragmatic because you will know your actions affects others.

Your ?pragmatic? view on life, as you express it, is indeed selfish if you only apply it on yourself, and do not see the facts of life as a member of the human race.

Taking charge of your own life and taking responsibility for actions, cultivating and nurturing human compassion in yourself, yes, I say you need to apply this to yourself first so that you will understand the Truth of these things. How will you be able to help and encourage others to do the same if you have not understood the truth yourself? This is not being selfish but being humble and pragmatic.

Maybe one day when you have travelled a bit and seen a larger part of the rest of the World and lived amongst people from many different cultures, you might just get another view on things.
It is much better to go to Japan and live there for a while, than to read about it. I think it will prove much more educational. I can absolutely recommend it.

My dear Ali Omar -)
Indeed I have travelled to some places. And I have families and friends all over the world including Quranic Utopic State Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, so yes, I speak from experience.

Have you visited Japan yourself? You should visit it. It is such a beautiful country -)
Though eating Sushi and Tofu can take time getting used to.
And fugu you most eat at your own risk -)

When the society that you live in is destroyed by natural disaster, your crops are destroyd by draught, your children are dying from famin or sickness, the values of your land are taken by others and so on and so forth, how do you shoulder your responsibility?

As Individuals we all contribute in our own way for the relief of these things in other societies. Did you know that Individuals in the Eurpean nations have donated more money to the Tsunami Relief than some governments themselves? This is what you get when you bring up individuals to take charge of their lives and take responsibility of their actions. When you are able to stand on your two feet and can cultivate and nurture human compassion in yourself, your conscious and compassion then can grow so that it embraces all humanity. Communism tried to FORCE people into doing this and that is why it ultimately failed because it undermined human dignity.

If you continue to live in your own rosy little world, one day you may wake up and find it less than rosy. But, as I said, this, my friend requires life experience, something you seem to lack.

Sorry Omar my world is not Rosy, it is Pragmatic. My world can never be a Utopia but strives for that Utopic vision. And yes, I have experienced poverty, oppression and dislocations. But I have taken up that scriptural truth that God helps those that help themselves, God helps those that help and encourage others to help themselves too.

Please, for your own benefit, do not use words you don?t understand, use your brains instead.

O my this seems like an insult!
How very imaginative of you -)
Shall I insult back? Perhaps not.
It will be lowering myself to your level!

I hope somebody can take up the question posed by ?shamsul-arefin? and try to look more closely at it. I find that a bit more serious and challenging.

Perhaps, yes, Shamsul's question will be easier for you to answer.
And your answer will be this "Yes, we can have Quranic Utopia only
if everyone followed it -)
How original! Have we not heard this from dawn of human begining.

Anyway Ali Omar. Nice to talking to you -)
I wish you all the best.

And when you decide to irrigate the Sahara desert
let me know and I will donate some money towards it -)

and I also hope that you find that plot of land for you to grow those healthy unpolluted foods so that I can come and buy them from you -)

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Dear Lote Tree,

Next time you are out travelling, maybe you should take off the dark sunshades; it is fantastic what you can experience when you see where you are.

Oh yes, I have had the good fortune to travel to all continents and living and working amongst natives of many different cultures, including Japan, repeatedly. I consider myself very fortunate in that sence.
Whereas I have a feeling you have not had the same opportunities, and maybe therefore have a somewhat limited experience. But don?t despair; you seem to still be young so opportunities may come. wait

If something hits you in the head, maybe you at least will be aware of its existence, divine or not, it could be a beginning of something great. brickwall

What you are preaching is not pragmatism; it is selfishness, my dear. You should try some of what you are prescribing, ?nurturing human compassion in yourself?, but this time try make it unlimited. There is an ocean of difference.
To stand on your own feet is commendable, but what you do not seem to realize is that you are standing on others feet, and that is not exactly the same.

Just to mention one thing, what was sent from Europe to help the unfortunate in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, is ?peanuts? compared to what Europe has taken out of the same countries my friend. Europe has exploited these areas through hundres of years. Sorry, I forgot, that is not in your present neighbourhood, so being ?pragmatic? these things dosen?t count in your community-book. whatever

It is very strange that if you have experienced poverty, oppression and dislocation, you can not see that you managed to get out of that through the help of others, probably others not even from your own community. You managed to run away from it. You did not stand on your own two feet; you used the help of others, who were from outside your own community. Sadly, not everybody is as fortunate. cry

About using your brains; it was not meant as an insult, just a friendly advice. You should wind yourself down a notch or two and feel the ground under your feet again.
When you come down to the rest of us, I hope I have got the plot of land I asked the owner for, and maybe we can start farming healthy products together?
I think we will make a lovely team. Until then, live well my friend. welcome

Best regds

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

Dear Lote Tree,
Next time you are out travelling, maybe you should take off the dark sunshades; it is fantastic what you can experience when you see where you are.

Hello Omar,

Again? -)

Next time you travel leave behind your "Idealism" then you might able to help some of those people you want to help instead of trying to help everyone and failing to do so and become sad and cynical about human nature.

Oh yes, I have had the good fortune to travel to all continents and living and working amongst natives of many different cultures, including Japan, repeatedly. I consider myself very fortunate in that sence.

Why did you travel? Were you not polluting the atmosphere when made those trips? Why spend all that money on air travel. You could have given to an orphanage?

Just kiddin -)

If something hits you in the head, maybe you at least will be aware of its existence, divine or not, it could be a beginning of something great. brickwall

So IT IS divine intervention then? -)

What you are preaching is not pragmatism; it is selfishness, my dear. You should try some of what you are prescribing, ?nurturing human compassion in yourself?, but this time try make it unlimited. There is an ocean of difference.

Oh Omar, you don't know me. You don't know the limits of my compassion. I am compassionate enough to listen to your painful failure of your Idealism to cure all the world ills.
Just kiddin -)

I consider myself very compassionate. And those that know me personally will say the same thing of me and ultimately I hope God will consider me compassionate too -)

To stand on your own feet is commendable, but what you do not seem to realize is that you are standing on others feet, and that is not exactly the same.

Thank you -)
I say, you have to be RESPONSIBLE for your actions and that means not standing on others feet but also helping others to their feet and encouraging them take responsibility for their actions.

Just to mention one thing, what was sent from Europe to help the unfortunate in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, is ?peanuts? compared to what Europe has taken out of the same countries my friend. Europe has exploited these areas through hundres of years. Sorry, I forgot, that is not in your present neighbourhood, so being ?pragmatic? these things dosen?t count in your community-book. whatever

That is a typical "Islamic" reply to why other countries are prosperous and they are not. You telling me Islamic Empires did not exploit anyone? That is the nature of Empires Omar. But that is the past Omar. Looking to the past will not solve your problems. Taking charge of the present and looking forward to the future is the way to go. Japan and Germany were so comprehensivly defeated in war. Did they look to their past and wallowed in misery? No. The have took their destiney into their own hands and built themselves to be very successful. Just like India is abandoning its colonised past and looking forward to the future and the sucess is already evident with India becoming one of the fastest growing IT centre.

It is very strange that if you have experienced poverty, oppression and dislocation, you can not see that you managed to get out of that through the help of others, probably others not even from your own community. You managed to run away from it. You did not stand on your own two feet; you used the help of others, who were from outside your own community. Sadly, not everybody is as fortunate. cry

This is what I said over and over again Take charge of your life. Take responsibility for your actions. Help and encourage others to do the same.

About using your brains; it was not meant as an insult, just a friendly advice. You should wind yourself down a notch or two and feel the ground under your feet again.

I don't just feel the ground with my FEET Omar, I feel it with my WHOLE being. You are on the other hand are puffed up and floating on your IDEALISM of quraninc UTOPIA. But you have become cynical because that Utopia is not there.

Here what I say to you. Leave that Idealism on your shelf and do something that is pragmatic help those that around you to take charge of their life and take responsibility for their actions. This is do-able. And you will see the result -)

When you come down to the rest of us, I hope I have got the plot of land I asked the owner for, and maybe we can start farming healthy products together?

Still waiting for God to give you things?
I think you will have a very very long wait Omar... -)
But I wish your dreams come true. And I will definately come and buy your healthy foods -)

I think we will make a lovely team. Until then, live well my friend. welcome

Thank you. God willing, I shall try to live well Omar.
And I wish you all the success in life and that you are able to bring into fruitition some of that Idealism that you so dearly yearn for -)

Regards,

[yfn123]

Peace LoteTree,

Thank you. God willing, I shall try to live well Omar.

So you shall not live well if God does not will?

Just trying to understand you and your true stance in regards to freedom. )

Anwar Azim

[unknownuser]

Peace LoteTree,

Thank you. God willing, I shall try to live well Omar.

So you shall not live well if God does not will?

Just trying to understand you and your true stance in regards to freedom.

Anwar Azim

Hey you are back Anwar?
What cave have you crawled out this time?
Just kiddin -)

• why use yfn123, what is this about chap?

Is not God willing a saying that you use if you are brought up in certain culture and it becomes part of your language just as saying Thank You in English?

But lets open a thread chap and will shall discuss FREEDOM until you are blue in the face (that is another English saying, not that you really become blue in the face or anyting!! -)

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Hi all,

For those who happened to read any of the ?discussions? here, it would have been an excellent demonstration of the human basic and self righteous instincts, ?take care of yourself and close your eyes for the rest, unless it seems benefit you?.
This is reasoning according to the human basic instincts and the cause of all the suffering in the World of both humans and the Earth itself.

There are strong arguments against a community living by the Qur?an. The whole idea is called a Utopia, and thereby deemed impossible to reach.
Should this discourage us from striving for it?
The System of God is including the whole World, without limits, there can not be any other way, but how to initiate such an endavour?

I think shamsul-arefin raised an extremely good question, ?Country with Qur?anic system, then how?? How to sustain it, how to live by it, relations to other states?

Therefore my question is, can this be initiated without involving a certain limited plot of land? From the beginning these limitations were not there, they came about due to the mentioned human reasoning that is leading our selves and the Earth as a whole, to the brink of extinction.

Are we really looking for Utopia or does the human being have the ability to live in a balanced way as the Qur?an is teaching?

Best regds

Ali Omar

[unknownuser]

Hi all,
For those who happened to read any of the ?discussions? here, it would have been an excellent demonstration of the human basic and self righteous instincts, ?take care of yourself and close your eyes for the rest, unless it seems benefit you?.

Hello Omar,

Obiviously you for one did not read any of it! You for one closed your eyes to reality and only despaired why Quranic Utopia has failed for 1400 hundred years. Read it again. This what said. Take charge of your own life. Take responsibility for your own actions as an individual and to the wider community you live in. Help and encourage others to do the same. Cultivate and Nurture human compassion in yourself and those that have around you. You see this as selfishness. I see this as bringing up indviduals to be responsible human beings. I see this as giving human beings their dignity.

This is reasoning according to the human basic instincts and the cause of all the suffering in the World of both humans and the Earth itself.

70 years of communist Utopias did not remove any of that human suffering did it? It caused more and it also destroyed freedom and personal liberty of individuals. The fact is that human suffering is caused by Greed in one form of another. And greed can only be overcome by cultivating human compassion in ourselves and in others.

There are strong arguments against a community living by the Qur?an. The whole idea is called a Utopia, and thereby deemed impossible to reach.

Yes, Utopias are indeed impossible to achieve.

Should this discourage us from striving for it?

We can strive for it but Utopias will always remain an Ideal.

The System of God is including the whole World, without limits, there can not be any other way, but how to initiate such an endavour?

God's system of government is one that is created through human reasoning like democracy. Though democracy is flawed and has its limitation but it has so far served humanity best. What will come after democracy. I am sure human beings will think of something -)

I think shamsul-arefin raised an extremely good question, ?Country with Qur?anic system, then how?? How to sustain it, how to live by it, relations to other states?

I don't think we can use Quran for that because language and morality of the scripture is that of the ancient world. We can certainly use Quran as a guide but we must rely on our Reason to develop a set of rules that serves us best as a society.

Therefore my question is, can this be initiated without involving a certain limited plot of land? From the beginning these limitations were not there, they came about due to the mentioned human reasoning that is leading our selves and the Earth as a whole, to the brink of extinction.

The plot-of-land idea led Communism? and what happened to Communism? So what does that tell us about the Human Condition?

Are we really looking for Utopia or does the human being have the ability to live in a balanced way as the Qur?an is teaching?

Every scripture tells you to live a Balanced Way.

Regards,

[Ali_Omar]

Hi all,

I begin to wonder now.
There are a number of examples of individuals trying to bring up the question of a practical ?Islamic community?, but this is not followed up and discussed in earnest.
Theories on how laws and regulation could function are discussed, but how to solve it in a practical sense seems to be less interesting.

Why this fright of bringing it a step further instead of just keeping on discussing it on a purely philosophical level? scared
Is it like some have suggested, a Utopia?
In that case, why discuss Utopia? To waste time?
Is the Qur?an telling us to live in a way that is impossible for us?
Why not just use the Qur?an as a paper-weight, live by our basic instincts and give a damn in everything else, like most of the human race has always done? whatever

IF THERE WAS A COUNTRY WITH QURANIC SYSTEM THEN HOW?

Best regards

Ali Omar

[David]

Peace all,

I am unable to see how a non-physical/non-landmass community can be completely Quran based.

Any thoughts?

peace

[Ali_Omar]

Dear David,

This is just the problem; can you see a physical mass of land making any difference in the task of following Gods system?
Humans are humans with all our strengths and weaknesses. Gods system lies not in a piece of land, it lies in our hearts and mind.
Have borders made the people living inside ?better? than the people living outside?

As soon as we put up borders around a plot of land we are telling people ?this is ours, keep out!? If we can not keep others out, they will bring their own customs and beliefs in with them, destroying our ?rosegarden?.
This will always happen, whether we put up a ?Chineese wall?, a ?Berlin wall? or whatever means we choose for segregation.

So, therefore the question, can there be a physical country following the words of God, or do we have to build a non-physical community?

How?

Best regds

Ali Omar

[David]

Dear Ali Omar, peace,

I guess my position was not well-stated. I was actually holding the opposite position.

I can not see a non-physical/non-land-based community adhering to a Quran only position. For instance, death penalty is allowed under Quranic law, however, many physical states do not allow this. Therefore, I am restricted to the system in whose land mass I reside.

There must be a government with the ability to enforce laws. How is this possible without a land-mass/physical area? It is very difficult.

There is also the problem of taxes. Do I get to choose where my taxes go? Not really. If I can not control where my money goes, am I able to fully live by the Quran? No. If my money is helping support a system that is partly against the system of God, am I fully living by the Quran? No.

So as long as I am living in a land-mass that is controlled by a system other than God's system I can not fully live by the Quran. That is why I am unable to see how a non-physical/non-landmass based community can be completely Quran based.

peace