If there was a Country with Quranic system than how?
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Dear Lote Tree,
Next time you are out travelling, maybe you should take off the dark sunshades; it is fantastic what you can experience when you see where you are.Hello Omar,
Again? -)
Next time you travel leave behind your "Idealism" then you might able to help some of those people you want to help instead of trying to help everyone and failing to do so and become sad and cynical about human nature.
Oh yes, I have had the good fortune to travel to all continents and living and working amongst natives of many different cultures, including Japan, repeatedly. I consider myself very fortunate in that sence.
Why did you travel? Were you not polluting the atmosphere when made those trips? Why spend all that money on air travel. You could have given to an orphanage?
Just kiddin -)
If something hits you in the head, maybe you at least will be aware of its existence, divine or not, it could be a beginning of something great. brickwall
So IT IS divine intervention then? -)
What you are preaching is not pragmatism; it is selfishness, my dear. You should try some of what you are prescribing, ?nurturing human compassion in yourself?, but this time try make it unlimited. There is an ocean of difference.
Oh Omar, you don't know me. You don't know the limits of my compassion. I am compassionate enough to listen to your painful failure of your Idealism to cure all the world ills.
Just kiddin -)I consider myself very compassionate. And those that know me personally will say the same thing of me and ultimately I hope God will consider me compassionate too -)
To stand on your own feet is commendable, but what you do not seem to realize is that you are standing on others feet, and that is not exactly the same.
Thank you -)
I say, you have to be RESPONSIBLE for your actions and that means not standing on others feet but also helping others to their feet and encouraging them take responsibility for their actions.Just to mention one thing, what was sent from Europe to help the unfortunate in Indonesia and Sri Lanka, is ?peanuts? compared to what Europe has taken out of the same countries my friend. Europe has exploited these areas through hundres of years. Sorry, I forgot, that is not in your present neighbourhood, so being ?pragmatic? these things dosen?t count in your community-book. whatever
That is a typical "Islamic" reply to why other countries are prosperous and they are not. You telling me Islamic Empires did not exploit anyone? That is the nature of Empires Omar. But that is the past Omar. Looking to the past will not solve your problems. Taking charge of the present and looking forward to the future is the way to go. Japan and Germany were so comprehensivly defeated in war. Did they look to their past and wallowed in misery? No. The have took their destiney into their own hands and built themselves to be very successful. Just like India is abandoning its colonised past and looking forward to the future and the sucess is already evident with India becoming one of the fastest growing IT centre.
It is very strange that if you have experienced poverty, oppression and dislocation, you can not see that you managed to get out of that through the help of others, probably others not even from your own community. You managed to run away from it. You did not stand on your own two feet; you used the help of others, who were from outside your own community. Sadly, not everybody is as fortunate. cry
This is what I said over and over again Take charge of your life. Take responsibility for your actions. Help and encourage others to do the same.
About using your brains; it was not meant as an insult, just a friendly advice. You should wind yourself down a notch or two and feel the ground under your feet again.
I don't just feel the ground with my FEET Omar, I feel it with my WHOLE being. You are on the other hand are puffed up and floating on your IDEALISM of quraninc UTOPIA. But you have become cynical because that Utopia is not there.
Here what I say to you. Leave that Idealism on your shelf and do something that is pragmatic help those that around you to take charge of their life and take responsibility for their actions. This is do-able. And you will see the result -)
When you come down to the rest of us, I hope I have got the plot of land I asked the owner for, and maybe we can start farming healthy products together?
Still waiting for God to give you things?
I think you will have a very very long wait Omar... -)
But I wish your dreams come true. And I will definately come and buy your healthy foods -)I think we will make a lovely team. Until then, live well my friend. welcome
Thank you. God willing, I shall try to live well Omar.
And I wish you all the success in life and that you are able to bring into fruitition some of that Idealism that you so dearly yearn for -)Regards,
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Peace LoteTree,
Thank you. God willing, I shall try to live well Omar.
So you shall not live well if God does not will?
Just trying to understand you and your true stance in regards to freedom.
Anwar Azim
Hey you are back Anwar?
What cave have you crawled out this time?
Just kiddin -)- why use yfn123, what is this about chap?
Is not God willing a saying that you use if you are brought up in certain culture and it becomes part of your language just as saying Thank You in English?
But lets open a thread chap and will shall discuss FREEDOM until you are blue in the face (that is another English saying, not that you really become blue in the face or anyting!! -)
Regards,
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Hi all,
For those who happened to read any of the ?discussions? here, it would have been an excellent demonstration of the human basic and self righteous instincts, ?take care of yourself and close your eyes for the rest, unless it seems benefit you?.
This is reasoning according to the human basic instincts and the cause of all the suffering in the World of both humans and the Earth itself.There are strong arguments against a community living by the Qur?an. The whole idea is called a Utopia, and thereby deemed impossible to reach.
Should this discourage us from striving for it?
The System of God is including the whole World, without limits, there can not be any other way, but how to initiate such an endavour?I think shamsul-arefin raised an extremely good question, ?Country with Qur?anic system, then how?? How to sustain it, how to live by it, relations to other states?
Therefore my question is, can this be initiated without involving a certain limited plot of land? From the beginning these limitations were not there, they came about due to the mentioned human reasoning that is leading our selves and the Earth as a whole, to the brink of extinction.
Are we really looking for Utopia or does the human being have the ability to live in a balanced way as the Qur?an is teaching?
Best regds
Ali Omar
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Hi all,
For those who happened to read any of the ?discussions? here, it would have been an excellent demonstration of the human basic and self righteous instincts, ?take care of yourself and close your eyes for the rest, unless it seems benefit you?.Hello Omar,
Obiviously you for one did not read any of it! You for one closed your eyes to reality and only despaired why Quranic Utopia has failed for 1400 hundred years. Read it again. This what said. Take charge of your own life. Take responsibility for your own actions as an individual and to the wider community you live in. Help and encourage others to do the same. Cultivate and Nurture human compassion in yourself and those that have around you. You see this as selfishness. I see this as bringing up indviduals to be responsible human beings. I see this as giving human beings their dignity.
This is reasoning according to the human basic instincts and the cause of all the suffering in the World of both humans and the Earth itself.
70 years of communist Utopias did not remove any of that human suffering did it? It caused more and it also destroyed freedom and personal liberty of individuals. The fact is that human suffering is caused by Greed in one form of another. And greed can only be overcome by cultivating human compassion in ourselves and in others.
There are strong arguments against a community living by the Qur?an. The whole idea is called a Utopia, and thereby deemed impossible to reach.
Yes, Utopias are indeed impossible to achieve.
Should this discourage us from striving for it?
We can strive for it but Utopias will always remain an Ideal.
The System of God is including the whole World, without limits, there can not be any other way, but how to initiate such an endavour?
God's system of government is one that is created through human reasoning like democracy. Though democracy is flawed and has its limitation but it has so far served humanity best. What will come after democracy. I am sure human beings will think of something -)
I think shamsul-arefin raised an extremely good question, ?Country with Qur?anic system, then how?? How to sustain it, how to live by it, relations to other states?
I don't think we can use Quran for that because language and morality of the scripture is that of the ancient world. We can certainly use Quran as a guide but we must rely on our Reason to develop a set of rules that serves us best as a society.
Therefore my question is, can this be initiated without involving a certain limited plot of land? From the beginning these limitations were not there, they came about due to the mentioned human reasoning that is leading our selves and the Earth as a whole, to the brink of extinction.
The plot-of-land idea led Communism? and what happened to Communism? So what does that tell us about the Human Condition?
Are we really looking for Utopia or does the human being have the ability to live in a balanced way as the Qur?an is teaching?
Every scripture tells you to live a Balanced Way.
Regards,
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Hi all,
I begin to wonder now.
There are a number of examples of individuals trying to bring up the question of a practical ?Islamic community?, but this is not followed up and discussed in earnest.
Theories on how laws and regulation could function are discussed, but how to solve it in a practical sense seems to be less interesting.Why this fright of bringing it a step further instead of just keeping on discussing it on a purely philosophical level? scared
Is it like some have suggested, a Utopia?
In that case, why discuss Utopia? To waste time?
Is the Qur?an telling us to live in a way that is impossible for us?
Why not just use the Qur?an as a paper-weight, live by our basic instincts and give a damn in everything else, like most of the human race has always done? whateverIF THERE WAS A COUNTRY WITH QURANIC SYSTEM THEN HOW?
Best regards
Ali Omar
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Dear David,
This is just the problem; can you see a physical mass of land making any difference in the task of following Gods system?
Humans are humans with all our strengths and weaknesses. Gods system lies not in a piece of land, it lies in our hearts and mind.
Have borders made the people living inside ?better? than the people living outside?As soon as we put up borders around a plot of land we are telling people ?this is ours, keep out!? If we can not keep others out, they will bring their own customs and beliefs in with them, destroying our ?rosegarden?.
This will always happen, whether we put up a ?Chineese wall?, a ?Berlin wall? or whatever means we choose for segregation.So, therefore the question, can there be a physical country following the words of God, or do we have to build a non-physical community?
How?
Best regds
Ali Omar
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Dear Ali Omar, peace,
I guess my position was not well-stated. I was actually holding the opposite position.
I can not see a non-physical/non-land-based community adhering to a Quran only position. For instance, death penalty is allowed under Quranic law, however, many physical states do not allow this. Therefore, I am restricted to the system in whose land mass I reside.
There must be a government with the ability to enforce laws. How is this possible without a land-mass/physical area? It is very difficult.
There is also the problem of taxes. Do I get to choose where my taxes go? Not really. If I can not control where my money goes, am I able to fully live by the Quran? No. If my money is helping support a system that is partly against the system of God, am I fully living by the Quran? No.
So as long as I am living in a land-mass that is controlled by a system other than God's system I can not fully live by the Quran. That is why I am unable to see how a non-physical/non-landmass based community can be completely Quran based.
peace
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Peace all,
David made a good point. A Qur'an-system country needs a physical presence.
I know this might sound far-fetched, but is it possible to take steps to won a governmental election with a Qur'an-only political party? I think this has to be the entry point to get Qur'an rules enforced in a secular democracy. Short of revolutions, of course.
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I know this might sound far-fetched, but is it possible to take steps to won a governmental election with a Qur'an-only political party? I think this has to be the entry point to get Qur'an rules enforced in a secular democracy. Short of revolutions, of course.
I disagree.
In a society of individuals with different beliefs then secular democracy is the only way to go.
Regards,
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Dear all,
Well, back to the sketch-board again.
If a land area is a must, then how, where, when?
We have a lot of land areas available at this very moment, the only obstacle is they are either inhabited by humans, or they are, more or less uninhabitable.
So, how to achieve the goal of building a nation adhering to the laws of the Qur?an?
And after the nation has been built, how to keep the system of that nation pure?We have to have some kind of law enforcement to see to that part, and also to protect the nation from getting contaminated by forces opposing the system. If individuals opposing the system get a majority, POP.......goes the Qur?anic nation.
Iran has tried for many years to keep their inhabitants within the framework of their ?Qura?nic? system. Malaysia still has the ?religious police force? checking on individuals, and other countries have their means of keeping individuals ?on the right path?.
So called communist countries have also tried to keep their systems pure through various means, and so on and so forth...............How is it that a nation of people following the Qur?an would succeed where all the others have failed? If this is so, why hasn?t anyone been so clever as to adopt a system that, through simple rules and laws is perfect for the human beings?
Could it be that humans are self centered and egoistic of nature and therefore has to be kept at bay, one way or another, whatever system is introduced?I would very much like to see ideas on how to solve the building and sustaining of a nation adhering to God?s words.
As far as I know, countries where the inhabitants are given the right to vote for their leaders seems to be those that are most successful in covering the material needs of their people. This should be no surprise as the individuals will vote for those who seem able to give them most. A purely self centered behavior.How can a system following the Qur?an, where the ideal is the exact opposite of self centeredness, compete?
You can not tell somebody that, ?Listen, you will not be allowed to gamble, play the stock-market, or let your money do the work for you in this system, but in the long run it will be better for you, because everybody will be better off, nobody will starve or be suppressed by others........?
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Revolution? Yeah, right!Best regards
Ali Omar
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How is it that a nation of people following the Qur?an would succeed where all the others have failed? If this is so, why hasn?t anyone been so clever as to adopt a system that, through simple rules and laws is perfect for the human beings?
Could it be that humans are self centered and egoistic of nature and therefore has to be kept at bay, one way or another, whatever system is introduced?Sadly, I believe this is true. Some humans can overcome this tendency, but most are not, hence we need laws and law enforcement.
I would very much like to see ideas on how to solve the building and sustaining of a nation adhering to God?s words.
As far as I know, countries where the inhabitants are given the right to vote for their leaders seems to be those that are most successful in covering the material needs of their people. This should be no surprise as the individuals will vote for those who seem able to give them most. A purely self centered behavior.How can a system following the Qur?an, where the ideal is the exact opposite of self centeredness, compete?
You can not tell somebody that, ?Listen, you will not be allowed to gamble, play the stock-market, or let your money do the work for you in this system, but in the long run it will be better for you, because everybody will be better off, nobody will starve or be suppressed by others........?
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Revolution? Yeah, right!Best regards
Ali Omar
It seems a little hopeless, then...
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Peace Ali Omar, everyone,
We have to have some kind of law enforcement to see to that part, and also to protect the nation from getting contaminated by forces opposing the system. Ali Omar
please Ali Omar, who are "we"? I mean, who are those "we" that are going to impose that kind of law enforcement and who are the people who will be under that law enforcement?
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Dear Elena,
Very well observed and exactly my point!
?We? are of course ?my self?, ?my self? and ?my self?, anybody else who qualifies, I wonder?
Could anybody from ?the others? be included, or should ?we/I? just exclude them, or do ?we/I? choose, based on what?Nation following the Qur?an, how?
Best regds
Ali
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Peace Ali Omar,
I just can imagine a utopia or a desired fair society becoming real through education, but not starting from a "new" imaginary nation, but providing education to the present citizens, in our actual society, something like what brother idolfree is doing, to start with. -
Dear Elena,
Yes, that is it. Educate ourselves.
But as Gods system is including all human beings in the whole World, people must be given the understanding of inclusiveness and not exclusiveness as the situation is at present. That is, the system of God is not limited by human created borders, even though we all feel bound, one way or another by some kind of human drawn borders.We are all living on, and of, the same planet Earth, if some people pollute the air in one place, this may affect the whole planet. The same is true concerning other of the Earth?s resources.
To use an old slogan, ?we may work local, but think global?.The question raised here, on many occasions, is how to achieve a nation of people following the Qur?an.
I fail to see how to isolate this to a certain area of land.Best regds
Ali Omar
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Peace Ali Omar, all,
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Yes, how to sell the idea in the first place?
I think that education is the key, however, will the majority ever accept the Quran?
Regardless, we should do whatever we can to promote God?s system. Within democracies, believers who are able should try to involve themselves in politics with a focus on implementing God?s system.The question raised here, on many occasions, is how to achieve a nation of people following the Qur?an.
I fail to see how to isolate this to a certain area of land.The societal laws in the Quran can be isolated to a certain area of land, though I do understand your point about us all sharing a planet. A Quran-based nation is not precluded from engaging in and promoting treaties of mutual benefit with other non-Quran-based nations, such as international clean air legislation (e.g. Kyoto Protocol).
However, the opposite does not appear possible. How can you implement Quranic laws without dominion over land?peace
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Dear David,
So-called democracies or rather countries where leaderships are elected through the votes of the people, are majority ruled. Therefore if a majority can not be won for a system following the Qur?an, there can be no nation following the Qur?anic laws.
The other possibility is, of course, implementing the laws by force. Another Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia............................. Not very tempting?
So, we are left with the possibility to use democracy to win a majority for the laws of the Qur?an within an existing country, or to find other ways and means.
The laws don?t seem possible to implement unless it happens on a certain area of land, guarded by human drawn borders.
The options then seem to be
- Win election in an existing country and implement laws and rules based on the Qur?an.
- Gather people of like minds across borders, implementing whatever laws and rules of the Qur?an possible, under the laws of the various countries.
I leave out the option of forceful implementation as that is breaching the law of God.
Have I overlooked any other option?
I really hope so, because both these options have already been deemed very unlikely to be ?do-able?.Then, how?
Best regds
Ali Omar