If there was a Country with Quranic system than how?
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Dear David,
This is just the problem; can you see a physical mass of land making any difference in the task of following Gods system?
Humans are humans with all our strengths and weaknesses. Gods system lies not in a piece of land, it lies in our hearts and mind.
Have borders made the people living inside ?better? than the people living outside?As soon as we put up borders around a plot of land we are telling people ?this is ours, keep out!? If we can not keep others out, they will bring their own customs and beliefs in with them, destroying our ?rosegarden?.
This will always happen, whether we put up a ?Chineese wall?, a ?Berlin wall? or whatever means we choose for segregation.So, therefore the question, can there be a physical country following the words of God, or do we have to build a non-physical community?
How?
Best regds
Ali Omar
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Dear Ali Omar, peace,
I guess my position was not well-stated. I was actually holding the opposite position.
I can not see a non-physical/non-land-based community adhering to a Quran only position. For instance, death penalty is allowed under Quranic law, however, many physical states do not allow this. Therefore, I am restricted to the system in whose land mass I reside.
There must be a government with the ability to enforce laws. How is this possible without a land-mass/physical area? It is very difficult.
There is also the problem of taxes. Do I get to choose where my taxes go? Not really. If I can not control where my money goes, am I able to fully live by the Quran? No. If my money is helping support a system that is partly against the system of God, am I fully living by the Quran? No.
So as long as I am living in a land-mass that is controlled by a system other than God's system I can not fully live by the Quran. That is why I am unable to see how a non-physical/non-landmass based community can be completely Quran based.
peace
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Peace all,
David made a good point. A Qur'an-system country needs a physical presence.
I know this might sound far-fetched, but is it possible to take steps to won a governmental election with a Qur'an-only political party? I think this has to be the entry point to get Qur'an rules enforced in a secular democracy. Short of revolutions, of course.
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I know this might sound far-fetched, but is it possible to take steps to won a governmental election with a Qur'an-only political party? I think this has to be the entry point to get Qur'an rules enforced in a secular democracy. Short of revolutions, of course.
I disagree.
In a society of individuals with different beliefs then secular democracy is the only way to go.
Regards,
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Dear all,
Well, back to the sketch-board again.
If a land area is a must, then how, where, when?
We have a lot of land areas available at this very moment, the only obstacle is they are either inhabited by humans, or they are, more or less uninhabitable.
So, how to achieve the goal of building a nation adhering to the laws of the Qur?an?
And after the nation has been built, how to keep the system of that nation pure?We have to have some kind of law enforcement to see to that part, and also to protect the nation from getting contaminated by forces opposing the system. If individuals opposing the system get a majority, POP.......goes the Qur?anic nation.
Iran has tried for many years to keep their inhabitants within the framework of their ?Qura?nic? system. Malaysia still has the ?religious police force? checking on individuals, and other countries have their means of keeping individuals ?on the right path?.
So called communist countries have also tried to keep their systems pure through various means, and so on and so forth...............How is it that a nation of people following the Qur?an would succeed where all the others have failed? If this is so, why hasn?t anyone been so clever as to adopt a system that, through simple rules and laws is perfect for the human beings?
Could it be that humans are self centered and egoistic of nature and therefore has to be kept at bay, one way or another, whatever system is introduced?I would very much like to see ideas on how to solve the building and sustaining of a nation adhering to God?s words.
As far as I know, countries where the inhabitants are given the right to vote for their leaders seems to be those that are most successful in covering the material needs of their people. This should be no surprise as the individuals will vote for those who seem able to give them most. A purely self centered behavior.How can a system following the Qur?an, where the ideal is the exact opposite of self centeredness, compete?
You can not tell somebody that, ?Listen, you will not be allowed to gamble, play the stock-market, or let your money do the work for you in this system, but in the long run it will be better for you, because everybody will be better off, nobody will starve or be suppressed by others........?
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Revolution? Yeah, right!Best regards
Ali Omar
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How is it that a nation of people following the Qur?an would succeed where all the others have failed? If this is so, why hasn?t anyone been so clever as to adopt a system that, through simple rules and laws is perfect for the human beings?
Could it be that humans are self centered and egoistic of nature and therefore has to be kept at bay, one way or another, whatever system is introduced?Sadly, I believe this is true. Some humans can overcome this tendency, but most are not, hence we need laws and law enforcement.
I would very much like to see ideas on how to solve the building and sustaining of a nation adhering to God?s words.
As far as I know, countries where the inhabitants are given the right to vote for their leaders seems to be those that are most successful in covering the material needs of their people. This should be no surprise as the individuals will vote for those who seem able to give them most. A purely self centered behavior.How can a system following the Qur?an, where the ideal is the exact opposite of self centeredness, compete?
You can not tell somebody that, ?Listen, you will not be allowed to gamble, play the stock-market, or let your money do the work for you in this system, but in the long run it will be better for you, because everybody will be better off, nobody will starve or be suppressed by others........?
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Revolution? Yeah, right!Best regards
Ali Omar
It seems a little hopeless, then...
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Peace Ali Omar, everyone,
We have to have some kind of law enforcement to see to that part, and also to protect the nation from getting contaminated by forces opposing the system. Ali Omar
please Ali Omar, who are "we"? I mean, who are those "we" that are going to impose that kind of law enforcement and who are the people who will be under that law enforcement?
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Dear Elena,
Very well observed and exactly my point!
?We? are of course ?my self?, ?my self? and ?my self?, anybody else who qualifies, I wonder?
Could anybody from ?the others? be included, or should ?we/I? just exclude them, or do ?we/I? choose, based on what?Nation following the Qur?an, how?
Best regds
Ali
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Peace Ali Omar,
I just can imagine a utopia or a desired fair society becoming real through education, but not starting from a "new" imaginary nation, but providing education to the present citizens, in our actual society, something like what brother idolfree is doing, to start with. -
Dear Elena,
Yes, that is it. Educate ourselves.
But as Gods system is including all human beings in the whole World, people must be given the understanding of inclusiveness and not exclusiveness as the situation is at present. That is, the system of God is not limited by human created borders, even though we all feel bound, one way or another by some kind of human drawn borders.We are all living on, and of, the same planet Earth, if some people pollute the air in one place, this may affect the whole planet. The same is true concerning other of the Earth?s resources.
To use an old slogan, ?we may work local, but think global?.The question raised here, on many occasions, is how to achieve a nation of people following the Qur?an.
I fail to see how to isolate this to a certain area of land.Best regds
Ali Omar
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Peace Ali Omar, all,
Excuse me for sounding pessimistic, but I would like to know, how to sell the idea in the first place to win an election?
Yes, how to sell the idea in the first place?
I think that education is the key, however, will the majority ever accept the Quran?
Regardless, we should do whatever we can to promote God?s system. Within democracies, believers who are able should try to involve themselves in politics with a focus on implementing God?s system.The question raised here, on many occasions, is how to achieve a nation of people following the Qur?an.
I fail to see how to isolate this to a certain area of land.The societal laws in the Quran can be isolated to a certain area of land, though I do understand your point about us all sharing a planet. A Quran-based nation is not precluded from engaging in and promoting treaties of mutual benefit with other non-Quran-based nations, such as international clean air legislation (e.g. Kyoto Protocol).
However, the opposite does not appear possible. How can you implement Quranic laws without dominion over land?peace
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Dear David,
So-called democracies or rather countries where leaderships are elected through the votes of the people, are majority ruled. Therefore if a majority can not be won for a system following the Qur?an, there can be no nation following the Qur?anic laws.
The other possibility is, of course, implementing the laws by force. Another Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia............................. Not very tempting?
So, we are left with the possibility to use democracy to win a majority for the laws of the Qur?an within an existing country, or to find other ways and means.
The laws don?t seem possible to implement unless it happens on a certain area of land, guarded by human drawn borders.
The options then seem to be
- Win election in an existing country and implement laws and rules based on the Qur?an.
- Gather people of like minds across borders, implementing whatever laws and rules of the Qur?an possible, under the laws of the various countries.
I leave out the option of forceful implementation as that is breaching the law of God.
Have I overlooked any other option?
I really hope so, because both these options have already been deemed very unlikely to be ?do-able?.Then, how?
Best regds
Ali Omar