Quran's shariah and it's applicability
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Hello Nadia,
Peace Lotetree,
The question still stands unfortunately, the criteria for how you judge and/or accept what the quran reads as is still shrouded in the mists of acute mystery...As I said I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation. Then we will discuss this ok?
...importantly what YOU did that got the people up in arms and running after you with pitchforks...
FOR SPEAKING MY MIND FREELY! -)
Regards,
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That is good for you. But I question everything. I have always questioned everything. If you STOP questioning the very thing you live your life by then there is no chance of intellectual or spiritual growth in my view. You might aswell believe that the Earth is FLAT and is supported on back of a GIANT turtle because you have your Trust in God! Trust in God does not mean that you should STOP questioning that Trust!
LT, can you actually read in full? Or do you read the last 5 words of every reply I give ? 3/159 tells us that after consultation, we make a decision AND trust Allah. I have applied my reasoning and submitted myself to Allah.
and nowhere does Allah tell me the earth is flat. Please stop these pathetic, non-existent examples. They do you a disservice.
You tell me mquran what is the revelation for? To follow rules? or a GUIDE to understanding GOD? And how do you become certain that the revelation is from God and not words of a fallible human being? That is the crux of the matter mquran isn't it? Scritpure came through a human being and therefore you can't be sure if it is from God. You either have faith in it or you don't. There is no way of getting around this.
If you don't know the Quranic verification procedure, then why are you calling it scripture ? Don't believe in it and be frank about it. One thing though, on this forum, people ask questions. And slogan-babbling don't usually satisfy them.
I said I am not interested in this until I see Edip Yuksel Reformist Translations! Then we will take from there. OK?
So when Yuksel's 'reformist' translations come out, tell me, how will you verify it ? Or maybe because Yuksel's a Kurd or Turk, you'll believe in him just like you believed in Rashad ? Hehe...takes all sorts, doesnt it.
If you believe in Yuksels translation, why did you assert that spoils of war was correct ? How will you know if Yuksel is wrong and the others right ?
How does this square with your primacy of reasoning ?
Honestly, its very baffling how you carry on this discourse.
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I have applied my reasoning and submitted myself to Allah.
Thats good of you. I am very proud of you! -)
But I will continue questioning the very existence of my life as I have always done.and nowhere does Allah tell me the earth is flat. Please stop these pathetic, non-existent examples. They do you a disservice.
I did not claim it was! -)
One thing though, on this forum, people ask questions.
That is what I am doing! I am asking how can be sure scripture came from God! Is this not a question?
I said I am not interested in this until I see Edip Yuksel Reformist Translations! Then we will take from there. OK?
So when Yuksel's 'reformist' translations come out, tell me, how will you verify it ? Or maybe because Yuksel's a Kurd or Turk, you'll believe in him just like you believed in Rashad ? Hehe...takes all sorts, doesnt it.
He he -) do you not understand what I keep saying to you? I will wait Edip Yuksel Reformist Translation of the Quran - then we can discuss this fully. OK chap? Be a good sport.. -)
How does this square with your primacy of reasoning ?
Honestly, its very baffling how you carry on this discourse.It is baffling how you make sense to yourself mquran when you don't trust your own REASON let alone anyone elses! -)
Regards,
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Peace Lotetree,
As I said I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation. Then we will discuss this ok?
I don't suppose we will get an answer as to what your criteria is for verifying the quran...ok then.
Regards,
Nadia -
peace be upon you Lotetree,
the truth is that the average Arab speaker today is not much better off than the English speaker is in interpreting/translating the classical arabic of this reading (quran), the classical arabic of this reading (quran) is very different from the Arabic of today, thats why arabs still have to take classical arabic lessons to understand it, so Rashad being a native Arab doesn't give his translation any more credibility than mquran's does, also in his defense, mquran never said he doesn't use reason or doesn't trust it (he said he trusts in God more), you have been seeming to go off on an emotional tangent under this thread, my suggestion is to follow your own principles and reasonably verify mquran's translation rather than just judging it based on its differences from other translations or on mquran's character himself or on the validity of Edip Yuksel's translation if i might add
p.s.-his translations are right, i agree with them, so maybe if we get a lot of people to agree on them you will as well because it will be the view of the "collective human conciousness" lol
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Hi there LoteTree,
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,
Hmm, I thought so too.
I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
I understand enough Danish. That is why I CHOOSE live in a liberal society where I have the liberty to speak my mind. But if you understand FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY more than me then Danish please teach me! I will be a willing student.
All governments have set rules and standards by which one must abide by wherever you reside and in whatever you do, whether you like it or not, and that also includes house rules, work rules, school rules, street rules, forum rules, etc., etc. If you dishonor any of these rules, then taste the outcome. You cannot live by Freedom and Personal Liberty simply by Speaking Your Mind out and do what you please. That?s the gist of the matter implied.
What does NUCLEAR techonology to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND?
Again, you lost your reasoning power.
Help me then Danish to regain my reasoning power...
When it comes to nuclear warheads, your FREEDOM to SPEAK YOUR MIND and your PERSONAL LIBERTY doesn?t relate, but ?chopping heads and body parts? does. Nevertheless, if nuclear technology has nothing to do with FREEDOM TO SPEAK YOUR MIND and YOUR PERSONAL LIBERTY to SPEAK YOUR MIND, then how does chopping heads and body parts do. Are severing of heads and body parts performed only by swords and not by nuclear warheads and other methods. Do you realize your misplaced reasoning power I was referring to earlier? Regardless, my statement on earlier post pointed towards ?evolving? in relations to Freedom or Personal Liberty, hence your weakness in reasoning both ways. Here are your quotes
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Though I do not have a FEAR OF DEATH mquran, but I do fear the pain of my head getting lopped off by a blunt sword by group of human beings, whose view of life, God, Religion I may happen to disaggree with! And I also fear of my HEAD and BODY being seprated from my family and friends in this life!!! That is why I CHOOSE to live in a liberal society!!!!
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I have my HEAD STILL attached to my body mquran and for that I AM GRATEFUL FOR LIBERTY! If I continued to live under that oppressive government, my HEAD and BODY would have been floating separately in some river...each finding its own way to God!!!
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
Oh Danish that thread is written in jest mate!! -)
Do you not understand any of the humour that been posted in the humour thread?I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol
On another forum, here?s what you wrote
You give out blankets so that God will pat you on the back for doing a good deed. For you giving about blankets is about reward. And as I said it is about Ego satisfaction. Can you ever conceive giving without expecting a reward? The Apple tree in your garden provides you with apples - what does it expect in return?Perhaps you didn?t care to contemplate on what the tree expects in return? Think!
Hey Danish why did not respond to that thread so that I would have given you an answer! -)
And how is it that you bought about your answers here on this thread (above) to my post from another thread (Women as sex objects) LoteTree. Squirmy, perhaps! Anyhow, care to answer them regardless of which thread or forum it belongs.
When I said "are you sick of freedom" Danish, I meant it as a jest. I did not mean to offend you. I thought you would have responded with humour too! but I guess you did not. So bow my head to that...
Ok, once again LoteTree, I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol In case I'm mistaken again, from now on I'll take your responses as humourous and laugh them out. wink
Regards.
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Hi there LoteTree,
...IF my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced, then put forward your arguments and convince me...
Hmm, I thought so too.
Lets have your arguments then chap! -)
Well, Khalil, you might not see "God" in my face I am afraid, unless if you consider a Yoda look alike "beautiful" As for myself I don't classify people as ugly or beautiful when I meet them. I will always meet people as individuals. But I can say Angelina Jolie is beautiful though I have not met her.
A defamed statement.
Oh Danish that thread is written in jest mate!! -)
Do you not understand any of the humour that been posted in the humour thread?I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol
The Thread was "All women as sex objects", it could never be true therefore it must put there as a joke. But Danish I can't make you appreciate humour! Read the Humour Thread perhaps you might get something! -) I can't teach you to be Witty Danish, sorry! -)
And how is it that you bought about your answers here on this thread (above) to my post from another thread (Women as sex objects) LoteTree. Squirmy, perhaps! Anyhow, care to answer them regardless of which thread or forum it belongs.
Hey? I thought you quoted those in this thread? You bought those quotes yourself from other threads! When you mentioned FREEDOM in the "Women as Sex Objects" and I merely commented!
When I said "are you sick of freedom" Danish, I meant it as a jest. I did not mean to offend you. I thought you would have responded with humour too! but I guess you did not. So bow my head to that...
Ok, once again LoteTree, I didn?t realize this was humour mate, my bad. lol
Regards.There was smiley at the end of that sentence "Are you sick of freedom -)" on that thread. Obiviously you did not understand this -(
In case I'm mistaken again, from now on I'll take your responses as humourous and laugh them out. wink
No. Then people will call you stupid! -)
and you don't want that do you -)Regards,
P.S - when you try to misquote people Danish try to be consistent -)
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peace be upon you Lotetree,
the truth is that the average Arab speaker today is not much better off than the English speaker is in interpreting/translating the classical arabic of this reading (quran), the classical arabic of this reading (quran) is very different from the Arabic of today, thats why arabs still have to take classical arabic lessons to understand it,I have come to this realisation recently Idris and wasn't that a surprise to me!!!! -) The Word of God in Arabic Tongue and even Arab themselves need translations thats very ironic! -)
so Rashad being a native Arab doesn't give his translation any more credibility than mquran's does....
Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think -)
also in his defense, mquran never said he doesn't use reason or doesn't trust it (he said he trusts in God more),...
I am sure mquran can defend himself on that account Idris! but I guess mquran doesn't trust his Reason so you have to defend him too. That is ok. I don't discriminate against disability, you can help him out -) (just kiddin -)
you have been seeming to go off on an emotional tangent under this thread...
You say this because you know my arguments on FREEDOM and LIBERTY are valid! Convince me Idris, why my faith in FREEDOM and LIBERTY is MISPLACED. If you can convince then I will pack my bags today and go and live under an oppressive government -)
my suggestion is to follow your own principles and reasonably verify mquran's translation rather than just judging it based on its differences from other translations or on mquran's character himself or on the validity of Edip Yuksel's translation if i might add
Thanks for your advice Idris. Do you speak Arabic yourself?
p.s.-his translations are right, i agree with them, so maybe if we get a lot of people to agree on them you will as well because it will be the view of the "collective human conciousness" lol
OK Idris, since you say it, it must be right!
Are you an expert on Classical Arabic Idris?Regards,
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LT Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think
Compare this statement with sunni slogans BUKHARI AND CO spent thier ENTIRE LIVES following the path of the messenger. They were excellent in character bla bla bla so thier information is definitely more credible (even though we never met them ourselves)....
If this is the pattern of RATIONALISM, soon the 'collective human consciousness' will be very UNCONSCIOUS indeed shock
Lote Tree, where do you live ? I'll find the nearest mosque (not masjid, but mosque) for you to go say shahada again....
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LT Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think
Compare this statement with sunni slogans BUKHARI AND CO spent thier ENTIRE LIVES following the path of the messenger. They were excellent in character bla bla bla so thier information is definitely more credible (even though we never met them ourselves)....
That was their problem wasn't it? And many if not all of you followed them one time or another! Duh! -)
But I never did in the first place mquran! -)
I questioned everything as far as I can remember! -)If this is the pattern of RATIONALISM, soon the 'collective human consciousness' will be very UNCONSCIOUS indeed shock
But you have BECOME UNSCONSCIOUS ALREADY mquran because you DON'T TRUST YOUR REASON -)
Lote Tree, where do you live ?
Millions of miles away from you mquran!!!! so you will not be able to use blunt sword on me!!!! -) And I am so glad of that too! -)
I'll find the nearest mosque (not masjid, but mosque) for you to go say shahada again....
My God does not live in a mosque mquran!
Yours does, does it?
Can you not conceive a God
that does not live in a mosque?
Perhaps you can't and therefore your understanding of God will always be limited... -)Regards,
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Lets have your arguments then chap! -)
I already did, and once again you couldn't grasp the point. Here's my quote for you to look at it with your deep intuition and GRASP what when wrong
LoteTree wrote
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,Hmm, I thought so too.
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In case I'm mistaken again, from now on I'll take your responses as humourous and laugh them out. wink
No. Then people will call you stupid! -)
and you don't want that do you -)Hey, the more the merrier. And that would hilarious, not humourous. lol
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P.S - when you try to misquote people Danish try to be consistent -)
Print your above humourous remark (with a smiley) in large bold fonts LoteTree, it'll become handy and haunt you. oops
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peace be upon you Lotetree,
I have come to this realisation recently Idris and wasn't that a surprise to me!!!! -) The Word of God in Arabic Tongue and even Arab themselves need translations thats very ironic! -)
languages evolve over time, you and I prolly wouldn't be able to understand old English from the 17th century very well so it makes sense that Arabs wouldn't be able to understand Arabic from the 7th century nearly at all
Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think -)
im not sure if Rashad and Edip spent their whole life but they did and have spent many years, but the problem is that Rashad was still influenced by the Sunni interpretation and kept a lot of those views in mind while translating, the thing is no matter how many people suscribe to a view and what their merits were and no matter how long it took to come up with it, it doesn't escape being reasonably verified
You say this because you know my arguments on FREEDOM and LIBERTY are valid! Convince me Idris, why my faith in FREEDOM and LIBERTY is MISPLACED. If you can convince then I will pack my bags today and go and live under an oppressive government -)
i have no problem with liberty and freedom, neither does anybody in this thread from what i've seen, the problem is liberty must always have limits so as not to intrude on the freedom and rights of others and society as a whole, have you read Layth's book "The Natural Republic"?
Thanks for your advice Idris. Do you speak Arabic yourself?
no but I do try to use dictionaries, the root, grammer, etc. to translate it to the best of my abilities and not to mention the most important using reason and the methods of interpreting this reading (quran) provided by itself to come to a conclusion
OK Idris, since you say it, it must be right!
Are you an expert on Classical Arabic Idris?no but all you need to do to come to the translation of a word is a set of good dictionaries, the root, and the context of the reading as a whole to come to a conclusion of a word and he is right from my knowledge, but i knew u would comment on the underlined part, thats what I said it to kind of mock your position on the translation
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LoteTree wrote
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,Hmm, I thought so too.
..erm where is your brilliant argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY Danish old chap? Do you want me to GRASP this WITH my INTUITION then? But I am not telepathic Danish -)
No. Then people will call you stupid! -)
and you don't want that do you -)And this would not be humourous but hilarious. lol
OK, I will laugh at you too then -)
P.S - when you try to misquote people Danish try to be consistent -)
Print your above humourous remark (with a smiley) in large bold fonts LoteTree, it'll become handy and haunt you. oops
Why? do you have sight problem?
If so go and see an optician!! -)And it will not haunt me at all but it will just show me how silly you are!
Because you did not misquote me old chap, only quoted half of it -)
That is OK, but you did have the intetion to miquote me didn't you?
-) I knew this and this being clever Danish, OK chap?...-)
Just kidding -)Don't take offence Danish it is just verbal banter, just
witty jousting I say... -)Regards,
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Here's what I wrote
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles?
You can speak all you want about Freedom and Personal Liberty, but how do you live by such principles? Aren?t there not rules and standards that governs everyone?s lives? If yes, then who is governing you to live by such standards? If not, then you couldn?t possibly be living in an uninhabited jungle or an unknown planet without any bearings whatsoever. I sincerely doubt that you understand the gist of Freedom or Personal Liberty when it comes to simply Speaking Your Mind out.
And here?s what you acknowledged
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced
Now what is there to argue about LoteTree?
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Hello Idries,
peace be upon you Lotetree,
I have come to this realisation recently Idris and wasn't that a surprise to me!!!! -) The Word of God in Arabic Tongue and even Arab themselves need translations thats very ironic! -)
languages evolve over time, you and I prolly wouldn't be able to understand old English from the 17th century very well so it makes sense that Arabs wouldn't be able to understand Arabic from the 7th century nearly at all
Yes, Language evolves over time. That is a good point. And all our languages have been human inventions. But scripture is said to be God's Eternal Word, outside of time and therefore the meaning should not change should it? If it changes then it is not eternal is it?
Yes, you can say that. But this man and Edip Yuksel have spent their whole life breathing every nuances of the Classical Arabic! So I say they have a slight advantage over ordinary people, I think -)
im not sure if Rashad and Edip spent their whole life but they did and have spent many years, but the problem is that Rashad was still influenced by the Sunni interpretation and kept a lot of those views in mind while translating, the thing is no matter how many people suscribe to a view and what their merits were and no matter how long it took to come up with it, it doesn't escape being reasonably verified
I understand what you say. But the point I was making is that they know more about the language than me as an ordinary person because they spent more than 20 years on it and able to read the Classical Arabic language. Also Edip Yuksel is still alive so I will able to ask about his Reformist translations when it comes out.
You say this because you know my arguments on FREEDOM and LIBERTY are valid! Convince me Idris, why my faith in FREEDOM and LIBERTY is MISPLACED. If you can convince then I will pack my bags today and go and live under an oppressive government -)
i have no problem with liberty and freedom, neither does anybody in this thread from what i've seen, the problem is liberty must always have limits so as not to intrude on the freedom and rights of others and society as a whole, have you read Layth's book "The Natural Republic"?
But when people say liberty and freedom are "slogans" Idris as mquran does, then I am unable to accept that. I understand limits of liberty and freedom. But it is my view that we should have the FREEDOM and LIBERTY but we should be responsible for our actions to ourselves and to the society that we live in. This is FREEDOM with RESPONSIBILITY and not FREEDOM without RESPONSIBILITY. FREEDOM and LIBERTY should be celebrated and not derided...
Thanks for your advice Idris. Do you speak Arabic yourself?
no but I do try to use dictionaries, the root, grammer, etc. to translate it to the best of my abilities and not to mention the most important using reason and the methods of interpreting this reading (quran) provided by itself to come to a conclusion...
But what if your conclusions contradicts others? How do you resolve that?
For example latest translations of Progressive Muslim of the verseThey ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
mquran say this is either "additional benefits" or "profit". The literal translation is Gift/Spoils. If you put all these in the verse
- They ask you regarding the Additional Benefits, Say ?Additional Benefits" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the PROFITs, Say ?PROFITSs" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Better still but why all profit for God and messenger? -Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the GIFTS, Say ?GIFTS" are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
Definately incorrect - Does not make sense to me
- They ask you regarding the spoils of war, Say ?The spoils of war are for God and the messenger.? So be aware of God, and be upright in matters between you; and obey God and His messenger if you are believers.
This does make sense to me, in the historical, linguistical context of the English language and the surah's context
As a non-translator Idris this makes sense to me - spoils. But spoils only makes sense in the context of war.
Do the words "war" have to be in a sentence for us to understand the sentence refers to War?
"Creative Translations" is not being TRUTHFUL to the original meaning of the sentence.
OK Idris, since you say it, it must be right!
Are you an expert on Classical Arabic Idris?no but all you need to do to come to the translation of a word is a set of good dictionaries, the root, and the context of the reading as a whole to come to a conclusion of a word and he is right from my knowledge, but i knew u would comment on the underlined part, thats what I said it to kind of mock your position on the translation
But you could have said Idries that mquran translation has more validity for YOU instead of saying it was correct in the first place -)
It is unlikely Idries, that I will be able to master Classical Arabic even if I study it day and night nor will able to chase after root words for the meaning. Therefore ordinary person like me has no choice but to rely on people who are expert on translations and Classical Arabic. There is no way out for us. mquran lost his credibility for me as a translator because he don't trust his reason. That is why I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation... Do you understand what I am getting at Idries?
Regards,
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Look Danish I have lived under an oppressive government where my freedom to speak my mind was denied. If you think my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced, then please put foward your argument to convince me that I should go back and live under the oppressive government that I have left behind. If you can convince me then I would happily go back and live there
Above is what I wrote.
And here?s what you quoted from above
LoteTree wrote
...my faith in FREEDOM and PERSONAL LIBERTY is misplaced,and this is what you said!
Hmm, I thought so too.
So where is your argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY?
But lets end this it is not going anywhere....
Cheers
Regards,
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Yes, Language evolves over time. That is a good point. And all our languages have been human inventions. But scripture is said to be God's Eternal Word, outside of time and therefore the meaning should not change should it? If it changes then it is not eternal is it?
This is correct. The meaning of al-quraan shouldn't change and upon establishment of its internal principles, it doesn't. Despite 1400 YEARS of crap being shovelled over its message, we can still access it if only we read according to how it tells us.
Of course, if our criteria is 'but he's an arab, his translation must be right' and 'he studied classical arabic all his life' and 'he's made a REFORMIST translation' (a translation SHOULD be neutral, neither conservative or reformist) and so on, then we're not exactly reading al-quraan how it tells us. How then can we accuse it of not fitting in to these gloriously modern times , where murder has become more efficient by millionfold?
It is unlikely Idries, that I will be able to master Classical Arabic even if I study it day and night nor will able to chase after root words for the meaning. Therefore ordinary person like me has no choice but to rely on people who are expert on translations and Classical Arabic. There is no way out for us. mquran lost his credibility for me as a translator because he don't trust his reason. That is why I am waiting for Edip Yuksels Reformist Translation... Do you understand what I am getting at Idries?
Since you don't intend to learn the language, how on earth can you verify for yourself ? Through the ethnic origin of the translators ? Wow, I have to say, even sunnis dont go down this route. And this morally advanced guy of the 21st century with all calls to rationalism is doing this ? Not doing rationalism any favours, are we?
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Salaams All,
'The meaning of 'Al Anfal' has been the center of debate for as long as there had been history books (Arabic history books)!
Now those who have translated the word 'Al Anfal' as the 'spoils of war', they didn't do any work except take what some history books said. What did some of the history books say about it? They said that the whole Surah of 'Al Anfal'was actually about the famous Battle of Bader and that it was even called 'The Surah of Bader'! The story goes that some of the Mujahedeen (Fighters for the sake of Allah) argued about how to share the spoils, so they went asking Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). The answer came from Allah starting with this Ayah They ask you regarding the spoils of war..Books which were concerned about the linguistic side said that 'Al Anfal' cannot be limited to one historical event The Battle of Bader. And since the Quran is timeless, 'Al Anfal' can be applied at any time and to many different situations especially when the word 'Al Anfal' literally means extra things, more than one needs, or what one volunteers, or fortunes or lands or places that have no known owner.
I don't know about 'Additional Benefits', or 'Profits' or 'Gift' though! Maybe what Brother MQuran means by 'Gift' is Qurban! Like when one donates something as a Qurban LeEllah something that one would give in order to be closer and get acceptance from Allah.
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peace be upon you Lotetree,
here are two threads on this forum that have discussed this topic in the past, I think they might give you some insight on chapter 8 as they did for me http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1042&highlight=spoils
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=938 -
So where is your argument against FREEDOM and LIBERTY?
But lets end this it is not going anywhere....
Fantastic!!! I promise it is going to end soon. But don?t sweat and get sidetracked and go off-tangent mate, I?ve yet to accomplish the ?argument? part that you so desire and have the forum members to witness for themselves. I misquoted your sentence ?INTENTIONALLY? to TEACH YOU A LESSON that you requested by the very game you play. Patience lad, you?re on ?check? and soon to be ?check-made? (EXPOSED), if you know the rules of chess. wink