=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.
As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Shirk, is the antithesis of Tauhid Allah, hence, Allah's guidance, is to warn mankind away from it. Allah will not forgive those who die in shirk, because to do shirk, is to be a rejector of Tauhid Allah. Please read 18110 and 572.
572 They do blaspheme who say "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
You misunderstand. Whatever is on earth, is an embellishment for the earth. The test of conduct is directed a human beings .
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Well, given that you admit Al-Quran is a book, then how do you reject that the following ayats are talking about Al-Quran as kitab.
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
What Book is that guide?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance.
These two ayats, then, identify Al-Quran as the Book of guidance sent to mankind, and that it is fully detalied.
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
The point I was making with 53 is, Al-Islam, the Deen of Allah, is complete and perfect. Al-Quran, that by which He guides to and explains what He means by submission to Him--Al-Islam, likewise, must be perfect and complete, otherwise, Al-Quran would misguide mankind, do you see?
Main Entry PERFECT/ED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements pure, total lacking in no essential detail complete meaning not lacking or faulty in any particular to bring to final form.
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
You are trying trap the people who are in discussion on this thread brother. You know well, when we are discussing about the guidance or Al-Quraan or Al-Kitaab, there is no way to answer in Yes or No.
What are you talking about? Of course you can answer yes or no, and at least four people here have answer "no". Re-read the above definition for guidance. Those aren't my ayats, but Allah's. No excuses, Ashuura.
For an example If a person just started getting guidance and he died before be reach 100% of the guidance. What will be his final destiny? Will he go to hell? Yes or No?
I don't know, however, the person was assured of one thing though, and that is...Al-Quran, was/is...100% fully detailed guidance.
This type of question you were asking brother. Please be fair in your discussions. We are not here to WIN, but I am most of us I found to be in a search of Truth.
Of course the question is fair, and it is the difference between shirk and tauhid. Why do you continue to make excuses. Just answer yes or no.
Remember, we are discussing the details relative to/specific to...GUIDANCE, that is all
Looking forward to your reply.
We have not yet started discussing about details brother. But about the Guidance, both got the guidance
Al-Quraan is the guidance for mankind
Al-Kitaab is the guidance for righteousWell, given this is your position then, is either of them lacking in one single detail...relative to/specific to/pertinent to the guidance that they are supposed to provide? Yes or no? Please answer.
Lookig forward to your reply.
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PEACE, IDRIS,
Just for the record. Here on page SIX, PB states
[Idolfree1This reading(quran) cannot be fully detailed.
Go figure! ?
What you've overlooked, which I didn't was, what exactly did he mean by Al-Quran is not fully detailed? However, he is correct, Al-Quran isn't fully detailed...except for one thing. Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, is fully detailed. You will notice that he will not answer the following question, perhaps you can query him as to why he won't. You don't mind querying me, so, do the same with him, fair enough?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your response.
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peace be upon you priest,
Does Allah tell us to follow the prior books for guidance or this Quran? Were the prior books sent as guidance to all of mankind or just to their respective peoples?
He tells other people to follow these books (5144-14 would The God do so if there was no guidance contained in them? as for your last statement it seems, it seems just to the people who recieved them also according to the quoted signs
When they were first revealed I'm certain that they were all intact, however, did they remain this way. This is why I asked you what food did Allah probibit the Jews. Please look into that in Al-Quran.
let me guess your argument will be that the food forbidden in the torah we have nowadays is different then what is mentioned in these verses or not in there
6138-139
And they said ?These are livestock and crops that are restricted, and none shall eat from them except as we please,? by their claims; and livestock whose backs are forbidden, and livestock over which they do not remember The God?s description as invention against Him. He will recompense them for what they invented.
And they said ?What is in the bellies of these livestock is purely for our males and forbidden for our wives, and if comes out dead, then they will be partners in it.? The God will recompense them for what they describe. He is Wise, Knowledgeable.6143-144
Eight pairs from the lambs two, and from the goats two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Inform me if you are truthful!?
And from the camels two, and from the cattle two; Say ?Is it the two males that He forbade or the two females, or what the womb of the two females bore? Or were you witnesses when The God ordered you with this?? Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about The God to misguide the people without knowledge. The God does not guide the wicked people.6146
And for the guided We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.I think there's another verse(s) I couldn't find it
Look into Al-Quran and then tell me.
I didn't find any prohibition of swine/pig for "jews"
How much time does it take to answer such a straight forward question?
I have several questions regarding the verse you posted, do you think that just because the system was completed on that day then that makes this reading complete? what if the books that came before it are included in the details making up the system? this is what I'm talking about, you can't take every argument you make as absolute truth as if its ordered by God
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PEACE, IDRIS,
He tells other people to follow these books (5144-14 would The God do so if there was no guidance contained in them? as for your last statement it seems, it seems just to the people who recieved them also according to the quoted signs
There is no...5144-148. Anyway, I never claimed that there was no guidance in them, rather, it is my understanding that...there is some guidance in them , however, Allah, does not say to follow them in wholesale for one's guidance.
let me guess your argument will be that the food forbidden in the torah we have nowadays is different then what is mentioned in these verses or not in there
6146 And for the guided We have forbidden all that have claws; and from the cattle and the sheep We forbade their fat except what is attached to the back, or entrails, or mixed with bone. That is a punishment for their rebellion, and We are truthful.
I didn't find any prohibition of swine/pig for "jews"
Yes, you are correct. It is my understnading that, the Jews, were never forbidden to eat pork, yet, their scripture says so
Deut. 177-8 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
Doesn't this indicate that the prior scriptures have been altered, hence, as as bodies of work, they are not reliable for guidance?
I have several questions regarding the verse you posted, do you think that just because the system was completed on that day then that makes this reading complete? what if the books that came before it are included in the details making up the system? this is what I'm talking about, you can't take every argument you make as absolute truth as if its ordered by God.
You didn't answer my question at all. The questions you answered, were the questions I asked in you in response to your questions.
The other books are not relevent to the question that I asked you. No matter what your position is on the prior books, Al-Quran, still stands on its own, hence, you can answer the question right now, what is the problem?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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peace be upon you priest,
The other books are not relevent to the question that I asked you. No matter what your position is on the prior books, Al-Quran, still stands on its own, hence, you can answer the question right now, what is the problem?
THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
at the moment I would answer "no" but I still have some questions and problems with your question
could details remaining in the previous books, if altered, be necessary for guidance? this would relate to the question because 53 speaks of the system being complete and not this reading, and the previous books are included in the system
does one need this reading to not end up going to hell?
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PEACE, IDRIS,
at the moment I would answer "no" but I still have some questions and problems with your question
All praises due to Allah. The only sane/taqwa answer to that question is "no", hence, Al-Quran, relative to/specific to/in respect to--- the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise , is fully detailed. For if it weren't, then mankind would inevitably/inexorably...be lead to...HELL.
Of course, what other possible answer can be rendered? The thought that Allah, gave mankind a book which is missing details for his guidance, knowing the consequence of that...HELL, is simply ridiculous and probably blasphemous.
could details remaining in the previous books, if altered, be necessary for guidance? this would relate to the question because 53 speaks of the system being complete and not this reading, and the previous books are included in the system
Are the prior books necessary/indispensible/pertinent to our guidance?
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a GUIDE and a mercy to all who believe.
Al-Quran, clearly, is the Book being referred to in the above ayats as being fully detailed - GUIDE, to wit
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...
Thus
2951 And is it not enough/sufficient for them that we have sent down to you the Book which is rehearsed to them? Verily, in it is Mercy and a Reminder to those who believe.
does one need this reading to not end up going to hell?
I don't know.
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
Peace be upon you brother Priest,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
You have limited the guidance in a very short area.As per the verses you have quoted above 18110 and 649, they contain words like "'Amila Thaalihan" and "Ya'mal Thaalihan". What does this mean to you? "Thaalih 'Amal" means "Corrected Deeds", which contains every thing. You have just limited it to Shirk only.
Shirk, is the antithesis of Tauhid Allah, hence, Allah's guidance, is to warn mankind away from it. Allah will not forgive those who die in shirk, because to do shirk, is to be a rejector of Tauhid Allah. Please read 18110 and 572.
Brother, will you please make it clear to me what exactly are we discussing? Shirk or Tawheed or Details or Guidance or Perfect or Explained or Complete or The Book or Al-Islam or Al-Deen or Righteousness or what?
You are not allowing me to stand in one place for discussion brother. And please, please do not call it an excuse that I am looking for. I don't have to actually.
And still you do NOT look at what I have given you before. But you sticked to your question and it seems that you are trying to put you understanding in my head.
572 They do blaspheme who say "(Allah) is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
I do agree with the verses, but what relation it got with our discussion, I still dont understand.
Again in 187 as you have quoted for successfully passing the test of conduct, it says "What ever is on Earth". Again it includes everything.
You misunderstand. Whatever is on earth, is an embellishment for the earth. The test of conduct is directed a human beings .
Human beings = men and jinn?
Please come up with the clear reference from Al-Quraan.
Yes, as I said before, you are correct that Al-Quraan IS a book. But it cannot be THE Book or AL-Kitaab. I have given you so many reasons about why Al-Quraan cannot be Al-Kitaab brother. But it seems that you have just ignored them.
Well, given that you admit Al-Quran is a book, then how do you reject that the following ayats are talking about Al-Quran as kitab.
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
What Book is that guide?
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance.
These two ayats, then, identify Al-Quran as the Book of guidance sent to mankind, and that it is fully detalied.
How do I reject that ayat talking about Al-Quraan as Kitaab? No way, It is very clear verse, how can I reject it?
But you are twisting the words. None of the verses said or refer to Al-Quraan as THE Book. How can you say "identify Al-Quraan as THE Book of guidance"? Where this AL or THE come from?
Allah, defines His Guidance/Quran as...perfect and complete .
Oops shock Are you trying to correct Allah or by mistake you have misquoted this verse? 53 never contain any such word as Al-Quraan or Huda/Hidayat. It is simply talking about Al-Deen which is a seperate issue.
The point I was making with 53 is, Al-Islam, the Deen of Allah, is complete and perfect. Al-Quran, that by which He guides to and explains what He means by submission to Him--Al-Islam, likewise, must be perfect and complete, otherwise, Al-Quran would misguide mankind, do you see?
Again you are mixing up Al-Quraan and Al-Islaam brother. Please, if you don't agree with me, tell clearly, I don't know your intentions but Allah knows well. Fear Allah.
Now, given that Al-Quran is a book--11 to 1146 ( see above definition of book), and its purpose is to guide ( see above definition of guidance) mankind away from Hell, did Allah, leave out any necessay/indispensible detail from Al-Quran, His Book on Guidance, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL? Yes or No.
Again Yes or No?
Well, given this is your position then, is either of them lacking in one single detail...relative to/specific to/pertinent to the guidance that they are supposed to provide? Yes or no? Please answer.
Again? Ya Allah help me.
OK, now, what is the guidance? Let me explain you what is it. What you explain does not contain any clear reference from Al-Quraan. But you are just picking up different verses and making a chain of it as you like. But see how Allah explains everything. Alhamdulillah.
"Those who believe in the unseen, and uphold the Salaat, and from Our provisions to them they spend." 23
"And those who believe in what was sent down to you, and what was sent down before you, and regarding the Hereafter they are certain." 24
"These are the ones guided by their Lord, and these are the winners." 25
From where are they guided by their Lord? This is the guidance.
May Allah guide us towards the correct path.
Regards,
MMKhan
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Brother, will you please make it clear to me what exactly are we discussing? Shirk or Tawheed or Details or Guidance or Perfect or Explained or Complete or The Book or Al-Islam or Al-Deen or Righteousness or what? You are not allowing me to stand in one place for discussion brother. And please, please do not call it an excuse that I am looking for. I don't have to actually.
O.k., I will make it crystal clear for you so that you can stand in one place. We will simply focus on the term GUIDANCE, o.k.?
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world, so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct, so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise.
Now, can you grasp the above definition of guidance? Do you have any problem with it? O.K., let's move on.
Now, THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
To help you with this, just imagine you are before Allah and He asks you..."Ya Khan, did I leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from My Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to your GUIDANCE, which could have resulted in your going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?" What would your answer be to Allah?
There, now you have your focus...what's your excuse going to be this time Khan, when you refuse to answer yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
Peace be upon you brother Priest,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Seperately, these verses are really very good. But making it a definition of guidance by mingling verses by ourself is not good.
Brother, will you please make it clear to me what exactly are we discussing? Shirk or Tawheed or Details or Guidance or Perfect or Explained or Complete or The Book or Al-Islam or Al-Deen or Righteousness or what? You are not allowing me to stand in one place for discussion brother. And please, please do not call it an excuse that I am looking for. I don't have to actually.
O.k., I will make it crystal clear for you so that you can stand in one place. We will simply focus on the term GUIDANCE, o.k.?
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world, so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct, so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise.
Now, can you grasp the above definition of guidance? Do you have any problem with it? O.K., let's move on.
The above definition of guidance is absolutely your own made definition. When I have quoted you from Al-Quraan what actually the guidance is, you just ignored and repeat your own quiz of yes or no.
Now, THE QUESTION
Did Allah leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from Al-Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to--GUIDANCE, which could result in an individuals going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?
You should understand one thing here... If a person finished his MBBS and start practising, he say that I have finished my studies. But there are more for him if he wants to study. And the other person who finished his MD says the same that my studies are over.
What do you understand with that. Any of them is wrong? NO, but they are right at their own place.
Similarly one (a lay man) who receive the guidance from Al-Quraan is to become the rigtheous. But after that he (the rigtheous one - Muttaqee) has to receive the guidance from Al-Kitaab
To help you with this, just imagine you are before Allah and He asks you..."Ya Khan, did I leave out any necessary/essential/indispensible detail from My Quran-- relative to/specific to/pertinent to your GUIDANCE, which could have resulted in your going astray and inevitably going to HELL? Yes or no?" What would your answer be to Allah?
I cannot answer this question except to say "Falaa tadhriboo li-Allahil amsaal, Allahu ya'lamu wa antum laa ta'lamoon"
now you have your focus...what's your excuse going to be this time Khan, when you refuse to answer yes or no?
Looking forward to your reply.
My excuses (if you think so) has already been given above. Read it carefully, do not ignore as you do it always... D
Regards,
MMKhan
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PEACE, MMKHAN,
GUIDANCE the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Seperately, these verses are really very good. But making it a definition of guidance by mingling verses by ourself is not good. The above definition of guidance is absolutely your own made definition. When I have quoted you from Al-Quraan what actually the guidance is, you just ignored and repeat your own quiz of yes or no.
LOL! I was wondering when you were going to come with that excuse. Anyway, the definiton is not mine, but Allah's and those ayats prove it. Do you, then, reject the above definition for guidance, yes or no?
I cannot answer this question except to say "Falaa tadhriboo li-Allahil amsaal, Allahu ya'lamu wa antum laa ta'lamoon"
I have no idea what you wrote above, although, I'm certain it's just one more excuse for not answering yes or no my question.
My excuses (if you think so) has already been given above. Read it carefully, do not ignore as you do it always...
Yes, I read them, now, when are you going to stop stalling and answer either yes or no to my question?
Looking forward to your reply.
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Peace,
Al-Kitaab can mean
The book, the prescription, the law, the writing, the decree.It can also mean
Books, Prescription, Law, Writing(s), Decree(s).
If the Koran can be classified under any of the above it can be described as such only in that sense. If it contains any of the above than it can contain al-kitaab only in the cases where that makes sense.
There is not need for such an argument as can be seen above the the Classical Arabic senses of Al-Kitaab are understood.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Peace,
Al-Kitaab can mean
The book, the prescription, the law, the writing, the decree.It can also mean
Books, Prescription, Law, Writing(s), Decree(s).
If the Koran can be classified under any of the above it can be described as such only in that sense. If it contains any of the above than it can contain al-kitaab only in the cases where that makes sense.
There is not need for such an argument as can be seen above the the Classical Arabic senses of Al-Kitaab are understood.
Godbless,
ProGodPeace be upon you brother,
Normally, I translate every word by looking at the usage of same word in other places. And I think this is the best way to get the correct meaning. And also I don't use any word with multiple meanings as I see it not suitable to understand the verses clearly.
Also as per AlQuraan it has been sent in ARABIC LANGUAGE so we cannot interperete our own meanings.
May Allah guide us all towards the correct path.
Regards,
MMKhan
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You think I'm interpreting my own meanings? . . .Interesting. I am using Classical Arabic to give the meanings of this word so that people can, with more education, approach the Koran.
Looking at how the Koran uses a word in other places can give you a glimpse at how the word CAN be used, but it is only through understanding Cl. Arabic grammar and definitions that you will understand how to interpret Cl. Arabic words in the Koran and in other Cl. Arabic text. Believe me, I'm not making this up.
Godbless,
ProGod. -
Salaamun Alaik brother,
You think I'm interpreting my own meanings? . . .Interesting. I am using Classical Arabic to give the meanings of this word so that people can, with more education, approach the Koran.
No, I does not mean that you are interpreting. I mean that today what we see in the so called Quranic dictionaries. They are actually interpreting. Let me tell, I bought Al-Mawrid (an Arabic to English dictionary) which is very famous in middle east. But unfortunately, I don't find everything that I needed. I got another Quranic dictionary and when I looked for the word "Esha(n)" I got the meaning as "Night Prayer". This is what I meant.
Looking at how the Koran uses a word in other places can give you a glimpse at how the word CAN be used, but it is only through understanding Cl. Arabic grammar and definitions that you will understand how to interpret Cl. Arabic words in the Koran and in other Cl. Arabic text. Believe me, I'm not making this up.
A Glimpse? I don't think so brother. But Cl. Arabic may help you somewhat. But I believe that the usage of words in Al-Quraan do change. I believe that the usage of words at the time of Prophet Mohammed cannot be used today exactly in the same form. I might be wrong. But I think thats how Al-Quraan is useful for centuries or till the last hour.
In this case the Cl. Arabic Grammer or the usage of words at that time may not be helpful.
May Allah guide us all towards the Truth.
MMKhan
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Like is with the case with all dictionaries, just one will not always be sufficient. Some dictionaries are just more extensive than others. In the case of Arabic some are directed more towards what is modernly understood than what is traditionally or classically understood.
In addition to that you have to take into account that a dictionary that does not claim to explain a more Traditional or Classical Cl. Arabic will include words that came about way after the Koran that can be considered Cl. Arabic, like words that you would find in Medieval Classical Arabic all the way up to the Colonial Era.
A Quranic dictionary will be biased just by its name. Quranic is not a language. Those who believe that the Quran employs its own language really mean Islamic language. Being that Muslims believe that the Koran promotes Islamic theologies they will take those Arabic words and interpret them in their Islamic theological meanings when they read the Koran. So what they should really say is an Islamic dictionary, because the Koran doesn't have a language all on its own.
Understanding the words of the Koran as Muhammad and his people would have been able to understand it is the key to understanding what the Koran really says. Its message is what will be able to apply to all generations. Just because it is written in an ancient language doesn't mean that what it has to say is outdated and ancient.
Godbless,
Anwar -
Greetings anwar,
I would like to comment on this?
Peace,
Al-Kitaab can mean
The book, the prescription, the law, the writing, the decree.It can also mean
Books, Prescription, Law, Writing(s), Decree(s).
If the Koran can be classified under any of the above it can be described as such only in that sense. If it contains any of the above than it can contain al-kitaab only in the cases where that makes sense.
There is not need for such an argument as can be seen above the the Classical Arabic senses of Al-Kitaab are understood.
Godbless,
ProGodLet?s review the true understanding?
= ?alqur-ana?
?alqur-ana? definition
Originally meaning the Collection; ?I collected together the thing? or ?I read, or recited, the book or scripture?; and then conventionally applied to signify the Book of God that was revealed to Mohammad; it also signifies the revelation, meaning that which is termed the mighty, or imitable which is read, or recited, and written in books or volumes. A name for the Book of God, like the book of the Law revealed to Moses and the Gospel.
is so called because it has collected the histories of the prophets, and commands and prohibitions, and promises and threats, and the verses or signs, and the chapters.
It comes from the root ?qara?a?, which has the primary signification he collected together the thing; put it, or drew it, together; part to part, or portion to portion. He read, or recited, the scripture chanting; he read or recited anything in any manner, without, or from, or in a book.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume seven, pp. 2502 - 2504
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 448 - 449Thus, as we can clearly see for ourselves, the Koran is not ?original? at all. It is merely a ?Collection? of previous scriptures (Mainly OT and NT Gospels), that have been collected and pulled together in an attempt to imitate the Holy Bible.
The authors who penned the Koranic text went to great lengths in acknowledging as truth, their Biblical origins.
Let?s review the definition for ?the Book??.
= ?alkitabu?
?alkitabu? definition
Lane references sura 22 in his definition
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (22)
?That is the book, or scripture?; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, p. 74; volume seven, p. 2590Thus?it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that ?the collection? that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
Furthermore, let?s review some Koranic passages that will shed even more clarity on what it claims to be?
Alif-lam-ra tilka ayatu alkitabi waqur-anin mubeenin
15.1 A L R , that is The Book's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Koran.
Here we have the astounding statement (from the Koranic authors) that the Jewish and Christian scriptures ?alkitabi? are inseparable ?ayatu? from the Koran.
Compare to this ayah?
Ta-seen tilka ayatu alqur-ani wakitabin mubeenin
27.1 T S, that is the Koran's inseparable message, and (a) distinct/clear Book.
In order to re-emphasize that the Koran is no more than a collection of Jewish and Christian scriptures, the Koranic authors transposed the order of the same juxtaposed words; this time around claiming that the Koran is inseparable from the ?alkitabi?.
Are we beginning to see the picture now?.?
And?look at these examples?
Wama kana hatha alqur-anu an yuftara min dooni Allahi walakin tasdeeqa allathee bayna yadayhi watafseela alkitabi la rayba feehi min rabbi alAAalameena
10.37 And this the Koran was/is not that it be fabricated from (by) other than Allah, and but confirmation (of) what (is) between his hands, and detailing/explaining The Book, no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) from the Lord of mankind and the jinn.
The Koran details/explains the Jewish and Christian scriptures?..?
Who would have guessed?
Kitabun fussilat ayatuhu qur-anan AAarabiyyan liqawmin yaAAlamoona
41.3 A Book its verses were detailed/explained/clarified, an Arabic Koran to a nation reasoning/comprehending/knowing.
The Jewish and Christian scriptures are inseparable from an Arabic Koran?.?
There is absolutely no doubt that the authors who penned the Koran (as we know it today) borrowed Biblical material.
In fact, they quite proudly made it a blatant point to say so?.
Take care?
-
Peace,
This is the point where you started to go wrong
The Koran "is merely a ?Collection? of previous scriptures (Mainly OT and NT Gospels), that have been collected and pulled together in an attempt to imitate the Holy Bible. "
That is a big jump from the definitiont that you gave that all that the word Koran means is 'collection, recitation, chanting.' Let me note that it also has the meanings of 'study and reading.' Those meanings can be seen in other dictionaries. I wasn't even arguing about the Koran's link to the Old Testament and New Testament. But pointing to the fact that Qur'an(un) mainly means 'a collection' and Al-Qur'an 'the collection' or generally 'Collection(s)' does not create a link to the Bible even if you want it to.
As for Al-Kitaab
You have
Lane references sura 22 in his definition
Thalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (22)
?That is the book, or scripture?; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination."
I don't see why you think that you are making a point here. Christians and Jews still refer to their books as 'The Scripture' or 'Scripture.' Being that Saudi Arabia during Muhammad's time (God bless him) was full of Christians and Jews it would make sense that this meaning would have penetrated the Arabic language of the time. But that does not mean that the word doesn't have other meanings, just as you put them book, scripture (which we would refer to as 'script or text' nowadays when speaking about a non-religious scripture), appointment, divine prescript
(I would say authoritative prescript which I've read in other dictionaries), appointment, ordinance, judgement, sentence, fatal decree or predestination.What you should also consider (which you wouldn't get completely from any dictionary) is that the form fi&aal, which would be the equivalent of fa&l, in the case of kataba that would mean that kitaab is also a synonym of katb. It is also a synonym of kitaabat (a word that started being used because kitaab had taken a more religious sense in Arabic, despite its non-religious meaning of 'book'). Kitaab can mean 'any writing' as well as law, decree and prescription. These meanings derive from the other meanings of kataba which have to do with 'decreeing, prescribing and setting as law.'
So your statement
Thus?it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that ?the collection? that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.
This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
That is a big, big jump, brother. . . A big jump.
Godbless,
ProGod -
Greetings anwar,
Thanks for your reply?
This is the point where you started to go wrong
The Koran "is merely a ?Collection? of previous scriptures (Mainly OT and NT Gospels), that have been collected and pulled together in an attempt to imitate the Holy Bible. "
That is a big jump from the definitiont that you gave that all that the word Koran means is 'collection, recitation, chanting.' Let me note that it also has the meanings of 'study and reading.'
Actually, my position follows the original meanings of the words.
Furthermore?.the original definitions are indeed proven-out by a study of the Koran as a whole - which is indeed 99% Biblical material.
Those meanings can be seen in other dictionaries.
Please bring forth your references?
I wasn't even arguing about the Koran's link to the Old Testament and New Testament. But pointing to the fact that Qur'an(un) mainly means 'a collection' and Al-Qur'an 'the collection' or generally 'Collection(s)' does not create a link to the Bible even if you want it to.
The classic definition for ?alkitabu? was also given as pertaining to the Holy Bible.
This word is unimpeachably juxtaposed with ?alqur-ana? as shown in the brief examples demonstrated in 15.1 & 27.1 ?..showing beyond any reasonable doubt that the ?collection? called the Koran is no more than an Arabic Bible?
As for Al-Kitaab
You have
Quote
Lane references sura 22 in his definitionThalika alkitabu la rayba feehi hudan lilmuttaqeena
That The Book no doubt/suspicion in it, (it is) guidance to the fearing and obeying. (22)
?That is the book, or scripture?; as though combining in itself the excellences of all other books or scriptures; or meaning that is preeminently the book, or scripture. The Pentateuch or Mosaic Law; and the Gospel, or Book of the Gospels; the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians. Divine prescript, appointment, or ordinance; judgment, or sentence; fatal decree or predestination."
I don't see why you think that you are making a point here. Christians and Jews still refer to their books as 'The Scripture' or 'Scripture.' Being that Saudi Arabia during Muhammad's time (God bless him) was full of Christians and Jews it would make sense that this meaning would have penetrated the Arabic language of the time. But that does not mean that the word doesn't have other meanings, just as you put them book, scripture (which we would refer to as 'script or text' nowadays when speaking about a non-religious scripture), appointment, divine prescript
(I would say authoritative prescript which I've read in other dictionaries), appointment, ordinance, judgement, sentence, fatal decree or predestination.What you should also consider (which you wouldn't get completely from any dictionary) is that the form fi&aal, which would be the equivalent of fa&l, in the case of kataba that would mean that kitaab is also a synonym of katb. It is also a synonym of kitaabat (a word that started being used because kitaab had taken a more religious sense in Arabic, despite its non-religious meaning of 'book'). Kitaab can mean 'any writing' as well as law, decree and prescription. These meanings derive from the other meanings of kataba which have to do with 'decreeing, prescribing and setting as law.'
So your statement
Quote
Thus?it is quite clear, even at this point, and even without performing any scriptural comparison(s) whatsoever, that ?the collection? that comprises the Koran, is basically the Jewish and Christian scriptures.This is beyond any reasonable doubt.
That is a big, big jump, brother. . . A big jump.
Godbless,
ProGodHere is what we can do to test the strength of my position...
I challenge you to pick any portion of your book of faith in which you feel is completely free of any Jewish and Christian influence whatsoever?.
This should demonstrate if the classic definitions are indeed accurate?
Your call?