=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=
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Peace Apples,
You've demanded
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.
Here are 5 "portions" for starters that I'd be interested in seeing you spin
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay.
572 They do blaspheme who say "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
6125 Those whom God willeth to guide, - He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying, - He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe
5016 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
Let's focus primarily on the "portions" that I've bold-faced. wink
Thanks,
Tay -
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but THEY killed him not, nor crucified him,
The word THEY is refering to the Jews.. It says THEY (the Jews) didn't crucify Jesus. The Bible says the same thing, it wasn't the Jews who crucified Jesus. BUT NOTICE Muhammads manual doesn't say Jesus wasn't crucified. It just says the Jews didn't do it!!. So that is straight out of the Bible because the bible also says the Jews didn't do it...
You only need to look at the previous verses to see who THEY is refering to.. it is referring to the Jews..
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but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts
No didn't miss it.... The Jews (Pharisees) did try to take credit for it, so it did appear to them that THEY crucified Jesus... But the Bible makes it clear that it wasn't them who did it. Its straight out of the Bible, just reworded by Muhammad.....
Plus you can't produce ANY verse that said Jesus WASN"T crucified, ONLY verses that says the JEWS didn't do it. In fact in the very Next verse it says Jesus was raised up to God. Again straight out of the Bible
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay
"I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute"
Straight out of the bible and reworded by muhammad
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Nice try Albion. Let's be clear.
Please provide reference to the chapter and verse where we can find in the Bible the words or explanation that God made it appear that Jesus was crucified.
Second, it is clear from the Biblical account that the Jews were responsible for the alleged crucifiction. Are the Jews not the people who brought up the charges on Jesus? Are they not the people who demanded Jesus be executed?
When a prosecutor tries a murderer and calls for the death penalty, do we blame the guy who performed the lethal injection?
Sorry bro, but you're trying too hard to defend your stance, even though you know it is clearly wrong.
In fact in the very Next verse it says Jesus was raised up to God.
Please stick to one point at a time as it's clear you've already bitten off more than you can chew. When we get to the next verse, I suggest borrowing Apple Pie's lexicon and looking up the word "rafaa".
Peace,
Tay -
Please provide reference to the chapter and verse where we can find in the Bible the words or explanation that God made it appear that Jesus was crucified
Where did I say that!!. I said it appeared to THEM (They the Jews) that THEY (the Jews) crucified him.. You have deliberately left out the word THEY (Them the Jews) so I can't provide reference to something I didn't say...
First provide the verse from the quran the says God MADE it appear that Jesus was crucified ". You are deliberately leaving out the word "THEY" out of the quote. Thy Agian !!!
And I don't mean provide a bad translation, as you will need to back up such a claim with the Arabic transliteration.....
"they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them"
"and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa)"
Do you see - "appeared so unto them" .. this is referring back to THEY crucified him
It says that it appeared that THEY (The Jews) crucified Him. It DOESN"T say it appeared He WAS crucified. Or God MADE it appear that he WAS crucified. Why do you keep leaving out the reference to THEY (the Jews) in that verse..
The Jews (Pharisees) forced the issue with the Romans, and it appeared to them that they were responsible. But in fact it had already been pre-ordained by God. So how can the Jews be responsible for something that was part of Gods plan.
Gods plans never fail!!!!
Second, it is clear from the Biblical account that the Jews were responsible for the alleged crucifiction. Are the Jews not the people who brought up the charges on Jesus? Are they not the people who demanded Jesus be executed?
No it is CLEAR it was part of Gods plan and was first prophecies by God about 800 years earlier in the Book of Isaiah. How can anyone be responsible for what God himself took credit for!!!... It only APPEARED to them that they were responsible...
When a prosecutor tries a murderer and calls for the death penalty, do we blame the guy who performed the lethal injection?
Who is blaming Pontius Pilate!!.... There is no blame on anyone, it was all part of Gods pre-ordained plan.... And Gods plans NEVER fail...
Mat 2028 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many"
1Ti 26 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Jesus GAVE his life.. it wasn't taken FROM HIM !!!
...
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace Apples,
You've demanded
Quote
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence.We demand nothing.
You respond because you want to?
Here are 5 "portions" for starters that I'd be interested in seeing you spin
4157 That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Apostle of God"; - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-
570 We took the covenant of the Children of Israel and sent them apostles, every time, there came to them an apostle with what they themselves desired not - some (of these) they called impostors, and some they slay.
572 They do blaspheme who say "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help.
6125 Those whom God willeth to guide, - He openeth their breast to Islam; those whom He willeth to leave straying, - He maketh their breast close and constricted, as if they had to climb up to the skies thus doth God (heap) the penalty on those who refuse to believe
5016 It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.
Let's focus primarily on the "portions" that I've bold-faced.
Thanks,
TayLet?s begin with your first attempt?and leave plenty of room for discussion before moving on to your other subsequent attempts?
4.157?
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the future?as the answers are in the context?.not in something that has been taken out of context?
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.
Here?s the drill (once again)?
Review the very next ayah that follows 4.157?
Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman
4.158 On the contrary, Allah rose him (Jesus) to Him, and Allah was/is glorious/mighty, wise/judicious.
= ?Bal?
?Bal? definition
A particle of digression; it denotes emendation, wherever it occurs, in the case of negation or an affirmation; or it is a word of emendation, and denoting digression from that which precedes. When it is followed by a proposition, the meaning of the digression is either the canceling of what precedes, as in
Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan subhanahu bal AAibadun mukramoona
21.26 And they said "The Compassionate hath gotten offspring? extolled be his freedom from that which is derogatory from his glory, nay/nay rather/nay but they are honored servants."
or...
If it is used as confirmation, then it must be followed by a clause in the affirmative, no matter if the question which it follows is the negative or affirmative.
It can be rendered as But, on the contrary, besides; much more; no; nay; rather.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 242 - 245
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 62We have two other examples of the cancellation and/or correcting of prior scriptures just within Sura 4, as seen in 4.49 & 4.155?
Thus, it should come as no surprise, we can see for ourselves that 4.158 cancels what is said in 4.157 regarding the false claim that Jesus was not Crucified , and replaces this false claim with the corporeal Resurrection event as described in 4.158 & 4.159?.
A quick review?
= ?rafaAAa?
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 1121 - 1124
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 217 ? 218Observe the definition for corporeal
? having, consisting of, or relating to a physical material body as a not spiritual b not immaterial or intangible
= ?rafaAAahu?
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?
Thus...it is quite clear that Jesus was Crucified and ?corporeal? raised from the dead.
And...further evidence...
4.159 And that from The Book's people, except to believe with him (Jesus) before his death, and the Resurrection Day, he (Jesus) is on them a witness/testifier.
Again....what happens...?
Jesus dies...i.e. He was Crucified......Then He is Resurrected from the ?corporeal? dead...and He is a witness as mandated from the ?alkitabi? Biblical scriptures...
In addition?you could not have cherry-picked a better sura for Biblical alkitabu material?as it is specifically called out an astounding 18x?.!
But...wait...it gets better with even more context....look at 4.163...
That We inspired/transmitted to you, as We inspired/transmitted to Noah and the prophets from after him, and We inspired/transmitted to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Issac, and Jacob, and the grandchildren/Jewish tribes, and Jesus, and Job, and Jonah and Aaron, and Solomon, and We gave David a Book. (4.163)
Just look at the Biblical names mentioned.
Take a real close look at the last name mentioned here...David...and his book....
His book was what....?
The Psalms.
Take a look at what his Psalms tell us...
Psa 221 To the Chief Musician, on the deer of the dawn. A Psalm of David. My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me, and are far from My deliverance, from the words of My groaning?
Psa 222 O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; and in the night, and there is no silence to Me.
Psa 223 But You are holy, being enthroned on Israel's praises.
Psa 224 Our fathers trusted in You; they trusted, and You delivered them.
Psa 225 They cried to You, and were delivered; they trusted in You, and were not ashamed.
Psa 226 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of mankind, and despised by the people.
Psa 227 All who see Me scornfully laugh at Me; they open the lip; they shake the head, saying,
Psa 228 He rolled on Jehovah, let Him deliver Him; let Him rescue Him, since He delights in Him.
Psa 229 For You are He, My Taker from the womb; causing Me to trust on My mother's breasts.
Psa 2210 I was cast on You from the womb, from My mother's belly, You are My God.
Psa 2211 Be not far from Me; for trouble is near; because no one is there to help.
Psa 2212 Many bulls have circled around Me; strong bulls of Bashan have surrounded Me.
Psa 2213 They opened their mouth on Me, like a lion ripping and roaring.
Psa 2214 I am poured out like waters, and all My bones are spread apart; My heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of My bowels.
Psa 2215 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and My tongue clings to My jaws;
Psa 2216 and You appoint Me to the dust of death; for dogs have encircled Me; a band of spoilers have hemmed Me in, piercing My hands and My feet.
Psa 2217 I count all My bones; they look, they stare at Me.
Psa 2218 They divide My garments among them, and they made fall a lot for My clothing.
Psa 2219 But You, O Jehovah, be not far off; O My Strength, hurry to help Me!
Psa 2220 Deliver My soul from the sword, My only one from the paw of the dog.
Psa 2221 Save Me from the lion's mouth; and from the horns of the wild oxen. You have answered Me.
Psa 2222 I will declare Your name to My brothers; I will praise You in the midst of the assembly.
Psa 2223 You who fear Jehovah, praise Him; all the seed of Jacob, glorify Him; and all the seed of Israel, fear Him.
Psa 2224 For He has not despised nor hated the affliction of the afflicted; and He has not hidden His face from Him, but when He cried to Him, He heard.
Psa 2225 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly; I will pay My vows before those fearing Him.
Psa 2226 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek Jehovah shall praise Him; your heart shall live forever.
Psa 2227 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn back to Jehovah; and all the families of the nations shall worship before You.
Psa 2228 For the kingdom is Jehovah's; and He is the ruler among the nations.
Psa 2229 All the fat ones of the earth have eaten, and have worshiped; all those going down to the dust shall bow before Him; and He kept not His own soul alive.
Psa 2230 A seed shall serve Him; it shall be spoken of the Lord to the coming generation;
Psa 2231 they shall come and shall declare His righteousness to a people that shall yet be born; for He has done it.David?s Psalms foretell of Jesus? Crucifixion....and sure enough, they are directly mentioned in sura 4....further confirming that Jesus was indeed Crucified and Resurrected as stated in the Arabic...
As if this were not enough, the authors of the Koran have also provided Sura 86 which demonstrates beyond any reasonable doubt that Jesus was indeed Crucified, Resurrected and Judges the dead.
Thanks...
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Peace Albion,
You stated
It says that it appeared that THEY (The Jews) crucified Him. It DOESN"T say it appeared He WAS crucified. Or God MADE it appear that he WAS crucified. Why do you keep leaving out the reference to THEY (the Jews) in that verse..
I'm not deliberately leaving anything out. It's all there in black and white. "But they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them". Your spin does not solve the problem, nor does it provide reference to any evidence that this was copied from the Bible.
What you've brought forth is wishful thinking.
Since we've now broken the boundaries of what should be included in this debate, I ask that you consider the context
4155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve God's Word; We need no more)"; - Nay, God hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe; -
4156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
Do you see the theme here?
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Apples,
You stated
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the future
That's fine, but if that's the case, try not to be so bold in your requests next time, per
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence (emphasis yours)
you stated
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.
You're going off on an irrelevant tangent here, try to stay focused. wink
Next, you weave your path away from the ayah in question into the next ayah, which is not what you had requested. Nevertheless, I'll play along.
You quoted, and emphasized
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
Why am I not surprised?
Let me have a crack at it
?rafaAAa? definition
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?
This is misleadingly false. In fact, when "rafaa" is used in the same context, it denotes exalting in honor.
7176 Walaw shi/na larafaAAnahu biha walakinnahu akhlada ila al-ardi waittabaAAa hawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatruk-hu yalhath thalika mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina faoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahum yatafakkaroona
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
1956-57 Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
1956-57 Also mention in the Book the case of Idris He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet And We raised him to a lofty station.
The ball's in your court.
Peace,
Tay -
4155 In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of God; that they slew the Apostle in defiance of right; that they ...
Yes Jesus is the NEW Covenant... which replaced the OLD Covenant that was brocken.. Again straight out of the Bible
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Peace Apples,
You stated
Quote
We would ask that you give some more context to your one-hit Koranic ?proof-texts? in the futureThat's fine, but if that's the case, try not to be so bold in your requests next time, per
Quote
bring forth ANY portion of your book of faith that is completely free from Jewish and Christian influence (emphasis yours)you stated
Quote
Modern Muslims are notorious for massacring their very own scriptures?who needs an enemy when they are their own?.You're going off on an irrelevant tangent here, try to stay focused.
You read our posts just like everyone else?
It clearly states ?any portion??..not a word?not an ayah?.but any portion that you think fits the criteria set forth?
You opted (for your first attempt), to show an out-of-context Islamic propaganda ayah that you wanted to use to promote the Islamic ?position??
However, since Koranic ayahs are artificially inserted into the original Arabic in the first place, your ayah submittal is really quite pathetic?.as you conveniently stopped your quote just before the Arabic word ?bal??
Had you shown full context, then you would have seen that ?bal? totally and completely erases and negates the entire ayah that precedes it?the very one that you (and Islam as a whole) uses to ?buttress? their lame position.
Your response to the classic definition of ?bal??..?
Zero.
Natta.
Zippo.
Why is this?..Tay?..?
You have just demonstrated that Islam is the result of the incomprehension of the classic Arabic and the taking of their scriptures out of context?.it is a way of life for the Muslim?unfortunately?
Now?look at this?.
Immediately after you make the statement to ?stay focused??..you immediately go onto ayah 4.158?..not even the very ayah (4.157) that you posited as your first entry?.talk about not staying ?focused??
It is clear that you perhaps do understand the meaning of the word ?bal??after all?
Next, you weave your path away from the ayah in question into the next ayah, which is not what you had requested. Nevertheless, I'll play along.
You quoted, and emphasized
Quote
?rafaAAa? definitionMasculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.
Why am I not surprised?
Let me have a crack at it
?rafaAAa? definition
Quote
Masculine singular. He raised it; he elevated it; upraised it; uplifted it; he took it up, raised, exalted. To raise up, lift, exalt, hoist, extol, take away, trace back, honor, show regard to, advance speedily, come to an upland, arraign anyone before or introduce to (a ruler), elevate, raise in dignity, see a thing from afar, refine. It is sometimes applied to corporeal things, meaning the raising, or elevating, a thing from the resting-place thereof; it signifies the putting away or removing or turning back a thing after the coming or arriving thereof. The bring a thing near, or presenting, or offering it. He withdrew, put away, removed, did away or did away with, annulled, revoked, or remitted.Quote
?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran?This is misleadingly false. In fact, when "rafaa" is used in the same context, it denotes exalting in honor.
Now?.this is fascinating?.
First of all?it is a fact that ?rafaAAahu? is used only this once in the entire Koran. This is not misleading in any way.
Secondly not only do you now start using our references (thanks for the thumbs up!)?but you move onto even more ayahs?further distancing yourself from 4.157?which you were so adamant about ?staying focused? towards?.
It is clear that you are beginning to understand the inherent weakness regarding the clich? usage of just 4.157?.are we correct?.?
4.157 is a dead ayah.
It has been replaced by 4.158 & 4.159?.
7176 Walaw shi/na larafaAAnahu biha walakinnahu akhlada ila al-ardi waittabaAAa hawahu famathaluhu kamathali alkalbi in tahmil AAalayhi yalhath aw tatruk-hu yalhath thalika mathalu alqawmi allatheena kaththaboo bi-ayatina faoqsusi alqasasa laAAallahum yatafakkaroona
If it had been Our will, We should have elevated him with Our signs; but he inclined to the earth, and followed his own vain desires. His similitude is that of a dog if you attack him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, he (still) lolls out his tongue. That is the similitude of those who reject Our signs; So relate the story; perchance they may reflect.
Remember the context?
7.174 And as/like that We detail/explain the evidences/verses, and maybe/perhaps they return.
7.175 And read/recite on them whom We gave/brought him Our verses/evidences, so he broke away/separated from it, so the devil followed him, so he was from the misguided.
7.176 And if We wanted/willed, We would have risen him with it, and but he perpetuate/immortalize/eternalize the earth/Planet Earth, and he followed his self attraction for desire/love and lust , so his example/proverb (is) like the example (of) the dog, if you burden/load on it, it pants , and if you leave it, it pants, that is (the) example/proverb (of) the nation those who lied/denied/falsified with Our verses/evidences , so narrate/relay the narration/information ,maybe/perhaps they think.
7.177 It became bad/evil an example/proverb (of) the nation those who lied/denied/falsified with Our verses/evidences, and were causing injustice/oppression (to) themselves.
Please tell us how many times ?mathalin? occurs in these ayahs??
= ?mathalin?
?mathalin? definition
Noun. Parable, likeness, similitude, like, reason, proverb, discourse, equivalent, comparison, sign, lesson, an example, case, state, condition, argument, match, an analogue. It comes from the root ?mathala?, which means to resemble, imitate, compare any one with, be or look like some one, bear a likeness.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, pp. 3017 - 3018
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar pp. 525 ? 526Please also tell us how many times the quintessential ?alkitabu? occurs in these ayahs?.?
1956-57 Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
1956-57 Also mention in the Book the case of Idris He was a man of truth (and sincerity), (and) a prophet And We raised him to a lofty station.
The ball's in your court.
Peace,
TayLol?.who do you think Idris refers to?.?
From Biblical ?alkitabu? no less?
Idris is none other than Enoch?
Look?
Waothkur fee alkitabi idreesa innahu kana siddeeqan nabiyyan
19.56 And remember/mention in The Book Enoch, that he truly was always very truthful, and a prophet.
WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
19.57 And We raised him a high and mighty/dignified place/position.
19.58 Those are those who Allah blessed/praised on them from the prophets from Adam's descendants; and from who We carried with Noah, , and from Abraham's and Ishmael's descendants, and from who We guided and We chose/purified, if the merciful's verses/evidences are read/recited on them they fell down prostrating and weeping .
= ?idreesa?
?idreesa? definition
The prophet Enoch, so called from his great learning. It comes from the root ?darasa?, which means to study, read, read with attention, disappear (trace), efface, obliterate, teach. It, a trace or mark, and a house, or a thing, became effaced, erased, rased, or obliterated; or it (the trace, or mark, of a house; or what remained, cleaving to the ground, marking the place of the house) became covered with sand and dust blown over it by the wind or it, an abode, or place of sojourning, became effaced , erased, rased, or obliterated, and its traces or remains, became concealed, or unseen.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume three, pp. 870 - 871
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 176 - 177As copied from the Holy Bible?
Gen 524 And Enoch walked with God. Then he was not, for God took him.
WarafaAAnahu makanan AAaliyyan
19.57 And We raised him a high and mighty/dignified place/position.
Thus?.we understand that Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Same as Jesus.
Right from your Koran.
Straight from your very own example.
We have to ask; who?s side are you on?..?
Or do you prefer playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey with your scriptures?.hoping that one day you may hit the bull?s-eye??!
Please put forth a concerted effort next time?.
Thanks?
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Peace Apples,
Here is the dictionary definition for portion
por?tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p?rshn, pr-)
n.
A section or quantity within a larger thing; a part of a whole.
A part separated from a whole.Now you stated
It clearly states ?any portion??..not a word?not an ayah?.but any portion that you think fits the criteria set forth?
Now tell me, Apples, what quantity of words constitutes a portion. You say it is not an ayah. OK. Is it 2 ayahs? 3 ayahs? How many ayahs are there in a portion?
Your intitial attempt was purposely bold in order to project your confidence in your stance. Now you're refining the attempt to include the context which you deem fit, or perhaps, the context for which you've already prepared answers. Interesting.
Perhaps the word "portion" was a bad choice. Perhaps "theme" would have been better. This would certainly strengthen your position, except for the fact that the Qu'ran already proclaims it is sent as a confirmation of the truth in the previous scripture. So if the Torah is from divine revelation, and the NT is from divine revelation, and the Qur'an is from divine revelation, doesn't it make sense that there would be plenty of recurring context? It would also make sense that there should be some original context. You seem to agree, except that anything you've found to be original, you've either brushed off as "artificially inserted", or you lump it together with the larger context, thus negating the very guidance that was offered.
Here's a tidbit of info for you
any Muslim who's read the Qur'an and atleast some of the previous scripture will notice that there are many similarities. These same people will also recognize that the Qur'an, as explained within it's pages, was sent as a confirmation of previous scripture. No newsflash here.So your constant badgering of readers to fulfill your redundant request and the delight you take in the fact that no one is responding to it, is nothing more than an imagined outcome and the makings of borderline lunacy. It's really quite interesting to observe, and even more interesting to watch you spin your wheels pumping out your pasted dialogue in imaginary debates.
So, when you slipped and used the word "portion" in your latest request, I took the opportunity to provide "portions" that cannot be confirmed from the Bible. Have you noticed that you cannot confirm these "portions" without grabbing the larger context? Do you know why? Because the "portions" are original, homey.
Now, on to your bickering
However, since Koranic ayahs are artificially inserted into the original Arabic in the first place, your ayah submittal is really quite pathetic?.as you conveniently stopped your quote just before the Arabic word ?bal??
hmmm... I could have sworn you recently posted that the author of the Qur'an was actually a Christian. I also recall you repeatedly stating that the Qur'an is a copy of the Bible. But now you say there are ayahs that were artficially inserted. I presume every ayah that was "inserted" just so happens to be the same ayah that does not agree with your Bible. nope
Immediately after you make the statement to ?stay focused??..you immediately go onto ayah 4.158?..not even the very ayah (4.157) that you posited as your first entry?.talk about not staying ?focused??
I can't have a debate with myself. That would be silly. You decided to sidetrack and here we are, sidetracked. I would much rather you address the "portions" I pointed out but it seems you've evaded once again. This is always your m.o. and I find it curious that you're trying to pin it on me.
Secondly not only do you now start using our references (thanks for the thumbs up!)?but you move onto even more ayahs?further distancing yourself from 4.157?which you were so adamant about ?staying focused? towards?.
Please see above. You brought the word into the debate, as you always attempt to expand the context to fit your library of "ready-to-paste" articles.
Thus?.we understand that Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Really? Raised where? God is omnipresent. Is Enoch also omnipresent, or was he exalted? Think.
We have to ask; who?s side are you on?..?
Who's "we" and what sides are you talking about?
Or do you prefer playing pin-the-tail-on-the-donkey with your scriptures?.hoping that one day you may hit the bull?s-eye??!
Very witty bravo
Peace,
Tay -
Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply.
Peace Apples,
Here is the dictionary definition for portion
por?tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (p?rshn, pr-)
n.
A section or quantity within a larger thing; a part of a whole.
A part separated from a whole.Now you stated
Quote
It clearly states ?any portion??..not a word?not an ayah?.but any portion that you think fits the criteria set forth?Now tell me, Apples, what quantity of words constitutes a portion. You say it is not an ayah. OK. Is it 2 ayahs? 3 ayahs? How many ayahs are there in a portion?
Your intitial attempt was purposely bold in order to project your confidence in your stance. Now you're refining the attempt to include the context which you deem fit, or perhaps, the context for which you've already prepared answers. Interesting.
Perhaps the word "portion" was a bad choice. Perhaps "theme" would have been better. This would certainly strengthen your position, except for the fact that the Qu'ran already proclaims it is sent as a confirmation of the truth in the previous scripture. So if the Torah is from divine revelation, and the NT is from divine revelation, and the Qur'an is from divine revelation, doesn't it make sense that there would be plenty of recurring context? It would also make sense that there should be some original context. You seem to agree, except that anything you've found to be original, you've either brushed off as "artificially inserted", or you lump it together with the larger context, thus negating the very guidance that was offered.
So your constant badgering of readers to fulfill your redundant request and the delight you take in the fact that no one is responding to it, is nothing more than an imagined outcome and the makings of borderline lunacy. It's really quite interesting to observe, and even more interesting to watch you spin your wheels pumping out your pasted dialogue in imaginary debates.
So, when you slipped and used the word "portion" in your latest request, I took the opportunity to provide "portions" that cannot be confirmed from the Bible. Have you noticed that you cannot confirm these "portions" without grabbing the larger context? Do you know why? Because the "portions" are original, homey.
Not surprisingly?.the bulk of your reply has been reduced-down to your understanding of the word ?portion??
Since you comprehend little to nothing regarding classic Arabic; let?s review a couple of basic points so that you will not make the same lack of context mistakes in the future?
Here are some Arabic prefixed conjunctions that you need to watch for when positing things in context.
Since you are a popular English rendering power user (which completely glosses over these points)?.this may not mean much to you?but (someday) when you get serious, you may want to comprehend these basic Arabic elements
= ?wa?
?wa? definition
An inseparable prefixed conjunction; and; also; but; whilst, at; together; with; together with. Connects words and clauses as a simple coordinative ?and?. It is used as a conjunction, unrestricted conjunction, and is expressive of concomitance, particle used for swearing (by God).
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3049
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, p. 290
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 599
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, p. 156
Arabic English Dictionary, J.G. Hava, p. 845 - 846Coordinative
To put in the same order, or rank; to bring into a common action, movement, or condition.
Conjunction
An uninflected linguistic form that joins together sentences, clauses, phrases, or words
The act or an instance of conjoining the state of being conjoined; to join together (as separate entities) for a common purpose; Combination.
Occurrence together in time or space Concurrence; the simultaneous occurrence of events or circumstances.
Concomitance
Accompaniment; an addition intended to give completeness or symmetry; compliment; an accompanying situation or occurrence.
= ?fa?
?fa? definition
A prefixed inseparable conjunction particle having conjunctive power. A particle of classification or gradation which sometimes unites single words, indicating that the objects enumerated immediately succeed or are closely behind one another; but more usually connects two clauses, showing either that the latter is immediately subsequent to the former in time, or that it is connected with it by some internal link, such as that of cause and effect. It implies a close connection between the sentences before and after it. This connection may be either definite cause and effect or a natural sequence of events signifying; And, Then; For; Therefore; So that; So; In order that; In that case; In consequence; Afterwards; At least; Lest; Because; For fear of; Truly, After, By; But; Thus; Consequently; In order to. It is also expletive, and a prefix to other particles.
References
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume six, pp. 2321 ? 2323
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 1, pp. 290 - 291
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur?an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, p. 414Now?.please go back and see just how many of these concomitance and sequence markers you failed to comprehend in your ?examples??.
Here's a tidbit of info for you
any Muslim who's read the Qur'an and atleast some of the previous scripture will notice that there are many similarities.It is rather obvious?
These same people will also recognize that the Qur'an, as explained within it's pages, was sent as a confirmation of previous scripture. No newsflash here.
Now that you feel this way?you can understand that the Koran ?confirms? that
? Jesus is God
? Jesus was Crucified
? Jesus was Resurrected
? Jesus Judges the deadNow, on to your bickering
Quote
However, since Koranic ayahs are artificially inserted into the original Arabic in the first place, your ayah submittal is really quite pathetic?.as you conveniently stopped your quote just before the Arabic word ?bal??hmmm... I could have sworn you recently posted that the author of the Qur'an was actually a Christian.
Indeed?
I also recall you repeatedly stating that the Qur'an is a copy of the Bible.
Second-hand copy?
But now you say there are ayahs that were artficially inserted. I presume every ayah that was "inserted" just so happens to be the same ayah that does not agree with your Bible.
Perhaps you are not cognizant of what the insertion of ayahs means.
The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
The Arabic was divided up into ayahs at a later date?.hence, ayahs are artificial in nature.
Now?.you understand? roll
Quote
Immediately after you make the statement to ?stay focused??..you immediately go onto ayah 4.158?..not even the very ayah (4.157) that you posited as your first entry?.talk about not staying ?focused??I can't have a debate with myself. That would be silly.
You seem to be doing a fine job of it so far?
You decided to sidetrack and here we are, sidetracked.
Please inform us how showing your ?proof-text? in its full intended context?.is ?sidetracking??.?
I would much rather you address the "portions" I pointed out but it seems you've evaded once again. This is always your m.o. and I find it curious that you're trying to pin it on me.
Showing the full context of your posited ayahs is not evading?
Quote
Secondly not only do you now start using our references (thanks for the thumbs up!)?but you move onto even more ayahs?further distancing yourself from 4.157?which you were so adamant about ?staying focused? towards?.Please see above. You brought the word into the debate, as you always attempt to expand the context to fit your library of "ready-to-paste" articles.
Thanks once again for confirming the authority of my references.
Secondly?.thanks for showing us the Enoch ayah?.It awesomely buttressed our position?
Thanks?
Quote
Thus?.we understand that Enoch was corporeally raised to God.Really? Raised where? God is omnipresent. Is Enoch also omnipresent, or was he exalted? Think.
Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Your prime example (by using ?WarafaAAnahu?) cements our position.
Are you now ready to address the Arabic word ?bal??.and how it negates your posited 4.157?.?
Or do you require more time to digest what you have just learned?..?
Your call?.
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Apple Apple Apple....
All that babbling and you still failed to tell me how many ayahs in a portion. nope
This is because "portion" was the vaguest possible term you could use, despite all the backpeddling and empty rheotric. Why not just swallow your pride and admit it?Perhaps you are not cognizant of what the insertion of ayahs means.
The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
Thanks for the lesson in redundancy. Now please tell me how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. Thanks.
Please inform us how showing your ?proof-text? in its full intended context?.is ?sidetracking??.?
"Full context" and portion are 2 different concepts. Shall we look it up together or will leaving you the link suffice?
http//dictionary.reference.com/Showing the full context of your posited ayahs is not evading?
Sorry, but it is. Please see above.
Thanks once again for confirming the authority of my references.
You're hallucinating again. Take a deep breath and read it again.
Enoch was corporeally raised to God.
Your prime example (by using ?WarafaAAnahu?) cements our position.
Thanks for evading, again. How about answering the questions I posed regarding the logical paradox of omnipresence and your faulty understanding of "raised"?
Are you now ready to address the Arabic word ?bal??.and how it negates your posited 4.157?.?
Sorry, but my "portions" were in queue before you sidetracked. Common courtesy bro.
Peace,
Tay -
Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your reply?
Apple Apple Apple....
All that babbling and you still failed to tell me how many ayahs in a portion.
This is because "portion" was the vaguest possible term you could use, despite all the backpeddling and empty rheotric. Why not just swallow your pride and admit it?How many ayahs in a ?portion???
This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.
Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.
Well?it didn?t.
Please tell us about the Arabic word ?bal? juxtaposed to the end of 4.157?.
Don?t keep running away from the scriptures that you are basing your eternal soul towards. wink
Quote
Perhaps you are not cognizant of what the insertion of ayahs means.The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
Thanks for the lesson in redundancy.
So?now your Koran is redundant?.?
Now please tell me how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. Thanks.
Should we repeat our explanation once again?.since you seem to have failed to grasp it the first two times??
Quote
Please inform us how showing your ?proof-text? in its full intended context?.is ?sidetracking??.?"Full context" and portion are 2 different concepts. Shall we look it up together or will leaving you the link suffice?
http//dictionary.reference.com/
Quote
Showing the full context of your posited ayahs is not evading?Sorry, but it is. Please see above.
It?s too late to correct your one-hit wonder ayahs, now?..unless of course you want to go back and edit your initial reply in this thread?
Please?keep right on posting your position however you please?.plucked straight out of its intended context?and we will show you what it really means?by plugging it right back into its intended position within the text?
Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?
Not very impressive?.by any standard?
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Peace Apple Pie,
You finally answered, in response to how many ayahs in a portion
This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.
That wasn't so hard, was it? I'll put together a new effort addressing your proprietary definition.
Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.
Well?it didn?t
Actually it did. I provided the portion and you failed to refute it without expanding. Now that you've admitted you used the wrong word, we can try it again.
So?now your Koran is redundant?.?
No, your rhetoric is. And your reading comprehension is lacking as well. I'd double check my position before attempting sarcasm.
Should we repeat our explanation once again?.since you seem to have failed to grasp it the first two times??
Who is this "we" you keep mentioning? By the way, you never addressed the whole choosing sides thing. At any rate, you didn't explain how you differentiate between inserted text and original text. And you only addressed this once. Are you getting sleepy?
Here's what you stated
The ?original? Arabic script was a continuous stream of letters.
There were no segregated ayahs in place.
The Arabic was divided up into ayahs at a later date?.hence, ayahs are artificial in nature.
You've provided no evidence, and no examples. Tell me where in this explanation one can find out how it is you differentiate between original text and inserted text. I hope I'm not asking for too much.
Thank you.
It?s too late to correct your one-hit wonder ayahs, now?..unless of course you want to go back and edit your initial reply in this thread?
Cop-out
Please?keep right on posting your position however you please?.plucked straight out of its intended context?and we will show you what it really means?by plugging it right back into its intended position within the text?
Please refine your use of the English language to the accepted definitions of words. You have enough on your plate redefining Arabic.
Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?
I'm just playing by your rules Apples. Does that bother you? I told you I would do this months ago. You selectively read, I selectively read. You pull things out of context, I pull things out of context. You ask for portions, I provide portions. What's the problem?
Not very impressive?.by any standard?
Likewise. Kinda like looking in the mirror. wink
Peace,
Tay -
Tray ... or any one else who is game
We are all still waiting for you to show us where in the Quran it say JESUS was NEVER CRUCIFIED.
All you can produce are verses that says the Jews didn't crucify Jesus... This is straight out of the Bible like 90% of Muhammads material... after he twisted and distorted most of it..
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Salaam,
Well certainly it is said that isa has not been crucified by his enemies but one must also keep in mind before asking the wrong questions that he was also given victories by God . Humiliation was not his lot.
I certainly see no harm in the quran having Biblical material, or should I say material from the Vedas within it. The Bible is mostly material from the Vedas if you've read them.
Joe
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Greetings Tay,
Thanks for your response?
Quote
This would be as many as needed to show the context and meaning of your assertion.That wasn't so hard, was it? I'll put together a new effort addressing your proprietary definition.
Putting your ?proof-texts? into their intended context is not hard at all?
You should try it sometime? wink
Quote
Apparently, breaking with Islamic tradition is difficult, and you thought that positing 4.157 completely out of its context?.was somehow going to ?prove? your point.Well?it didn?t
Actually it did. I provided the portion and you failed to refute it without expanding. Now that you've admitted you used the wrong word, we can try it again.
4.157 is a dead ayah.
?Bal? erases it and replaces it with 4.158 & 4.159?
Period.
End of story.
Just face this undeniable fact of life.
Time to start standing up for what you believe in, instead of repeatedly running away from the word ?bal??
Let?s see if you run away yet again?.lol?. lol
Quote
Perhaps?instead of name calling?you could actually start studying the mother-tongue that you are basing your eternal souls towards?.instead of defacing it out of its intended context...and pouring new meanings into the out-of-context-text?I'm just playing by your rules Apples. Does that bother you? I told you I would do this months ago.
What rules??
You selectively read, I selectively read.
You selectively read.
We do not.
You pull things out of context, I pull things out of context.
You pull things out of context.
We do not.
You ask for portions, I provide portions. What's the problem?
There is no problem.
You keep on posting in the same out-of-context manner (albeit the Muslim way)?.and we will put in all back into full context as it was intended to be?.
No problem at all?
Thanks?