=[ Difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan ]=

yfn123

Greetings with peace,

If it means "cut to the exact", then it must be no more and no less. This meaning also does not allow other sources. In any case, whether it is "cut to the exact" or "fully detailed" in regards to guidance, what has been communicated is sufficient, i.e. the guidance is self-sufficient.

Anwar Azim

Peace PB, All
The word Kitaab has more than one meaning. One of them is the Divine Laws that Allah has created the universe according to them.

The word Fussilat does not mean detailed. It means cut to the exact (if I would translate it from the dictionary). You can check Fussilat's meaning in most of the Arabic dictionaries (if you know Arabic) in this link http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca

You will not find the words shar7 or Is-hab which both mean detail.

TAJ

Salaams PB,

PEACE, TAJ,

Peace PB, All

The word Kitaab has more than one meaning. One of them is the Divine Laws that Allah has created the universe according to them.

The word Fussilat does not mean detailed. It means cut to the exact (if I would translate it from the dictionary). You can check Fussilat's meaning in most of the Arabic dictionaries (if you know Arabic) in this link http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca

You will not find the words shar7 or Is-hab which both mean detail.

According to the following definition, fussilat, is a deritive of fasala-detailed

Main Entry FASALA/DETAILED expatiate into detail; fully detailed; make clear statements/clearly explained; distinct. page 428.

Can I ask you Based on what source did you get your translation? Because the link I gave to you
http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca
has Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6.

You wrote fussilat="cut to the exact". I'm having a difficult time distinguishing the difference between "cut to the exact" and fully detailed. When Allah, "cuts something to the exact", what about that thing, then, is not fully detailed?

Iwrote It means cut to the exact (if I would translate it from the dictionary). This is the closest I could come up with, but ?detailed? is just not there!

Given your definition then, what, relative to the following definition of guidance, hasn't Allah, in His Quran, "cut exactly"?

Not my definition, PB. Please check the link! Maybe you can translate what is in there better than me. Everything in the Quran is perfectly and exactly put, cut, drawn, designed. But the Quran does not go into details regarding many issues. As a matter of fact what I see is that the Quran is a perfect summary of Al Kitaab.

And I think that the AHadeeth that the traditional Muslims invented and are so badly clinging to is because they are so thirsty for details, details they couldn't find in the Quran, details about Salat, etc..Don't you think?And that is why you see them taking stories from the Bible and Torah.

unknownuser

PEACE, TAJ,

The word Kitaab has more than one meaning. One of them is the Divine Laws that Allah has created the universe according to them.

I don't disagree, however, please give me your understanding of the following ayat

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?
The term used for fully detalied in the above ayat is...fussalna fully detalied. Are you claiming that fussalna in the above ayat, means something other than fully detailed?

The word Fussilat does not mean detailed. It means cut to the exact (if I would translate it from the dictionary). You can check Fussilat's meaning in most of the Arabic dictionaries (if you know Arabic) in this link http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca...Can I ask you Based on what source did you get your translation? Because the link I gave to youhttp//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca has Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6.

Yes, I use The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar. He goes extensively into fasala and it means detailed.

You will not find the words shar7 or Is-hab which both mean detail.

Are the above terms used in Al-Quran to describe it? If so, would you please post those ayats, thanks.

Not my definition, PB. Please check the link! Maybe you can translate what is in there better than me. Everything in the Quran is perfectly and exactly put, cut, drawn, designed. But the Quran does not go into details regarding many issues. As a matter of fact what I see is that the Quran is a perfect summary of Al Kitaab. And I think that the AHadeeth that the traditional Muslims invented and are so badly clinging to is because they are so thirsty for details, details they couldn't find in the Quran, details about Salat, etc..Don't you think?And that is why you see them taking stories from the Bible and Torah.

If everything is perfectly and exactly put, then, how is that not fussalna/fully detailed?

If there are no details as to how to perform the so-called ritual prayer/salat, then, the only rational explanation, given the definition of fussalna is, there is no ritual prayer to be performed, otherwise, a discrepancy/contradiction occurs.

Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Kitab?

Looking forward to your comments.

TAJ

Salaam PB,

PEACE, TAJ,

The word Kitaab has more than one meaning. One of them is the Divine Laws that Allah has created the universe according to them.
I don't disagree,
Al Hamdu Le Ellah! I'm glad!

The word Fussilat does not mean detailed. It means cut to the exact (if I would translate it from the dictionary). You can check Fussilat's meaning in most of the Arabic dictionaries (if you know Arabic) in this link http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca...Can I ask you Based on what source did you get your translation? Because the link I gave to youhttp//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1%ca has Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6.
Yes, I use The Dictionary of the Holy Quran, Abdul Mannan Omar. He goes extensively into fasala and it means detailed.

Ok, but! Where did Abdul Mannan Omar get his information from? Those classical Arabic-Arabicdictionaries I mentioned Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6 and some others, which are not found in the internet, are really the main source for teh Quranic Arabic. They contain the old Arabic and no modern dictionary can do without them. Yes, sometimes the information in those old books might just shock you because their meanings might not match modern meanings!! I will give you an example
The Arabic word RAQAM. If you ask any Arab now old or young of what is the English equivilant of that word, they will ALL tell you NUMBER. However, if you check the old Arabic dicyionaries Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6, you will not find that RAQAM means NUMBER!! It means other things that Brother Ayman mentioned in his debate with Edip on this thread
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3673&start=0
****A new meaning for "marqum" as "numerically structured" is invented without providing any argument as to why the clear Arabic meaning was not used. The meaning has no basis in classical Arabic dictionaries. Here is what the dictionaries say about the word

Wasit

. (. &#1614. 1." " . 2." " . " ".

Lisan Al 3arab

Clearly, Arabic dictionaries say that "marqum" means "written/recorded" or "whose letters are dotted". There is nothing in there about "numerically structured". ****
Can you see, PB, that a simple small word being mistranslated could collapse the whole theory of code 19?

My point is From where did Abdul Mannan Omar bring his information?
In modern Arabic the word Fussilatt is used for detailed but not in the old classical Quranic Arabic.

Now I apologize, PB, for not having the time to comment on the rest of your post. I promise to return to you later. This subject is very important to me and I am very interested to find out the exact meanings of "Kitaab". Every Ayah that contains the word "Kitaab" needs to be studied thoroughly. "Kitaab" may have a different meaning according to context, none of them could mean "Book". Because what is a book? Is it papers with a cover with words written in them? Is it a CD? Is it words carved in stone? Unless "Book" is used metaphorically!

however, please give me your understanding of the following ayat

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?
The term used for fully detalied in the above ayat is...fussalna fully detalied. Are you claiming that fussalna in the above ayat, means something other than fully detailed?

You will not find the words shar7 or Is-hab which both mean detail.

Are the above terms used in Al-Quran to describe it? If so, would you please post those ayats, thanks.

Not my definition, PB. Please check the link! Maybe you can translate what is in there better than me. Everything in the Quran is perfectly and exactly put, cut, drawn, designed. But the Quran does not go into details regarding many issues. As a matter of fact what I see is that the Quran is a perfect summary of Al Kitaab. And I think that the AHadeeth that the traditional Muslims invented and are so badly clinging to is because they are so thirsty for details, details they couldn't find in the Quran, details about Salat, etc..Don't you think?And that is why you see them taking stories from the Bible and Torah.

If everything is perfectly and exactly put, then, how is that not fussalna/fully detailed?

If there are no details as to how to perform the so-called ritual prayer/salat, then, the only rational explanation, given the definition of fussalna is, there is no ritual prayer to be performed, otherwise, a discrepancy/contradiction occurs.

Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Kitab?

Looking forward to your comments.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

This verse states that the SIGNS (not verses) of the BOOK(universe) are explained in detail by this ARABIC reading. It is the universe that is fully detailed. This arabic reading is a guide, one of the best guides.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you PB,

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?

Yes, because it says "Book" not "reading". Knowledge is that which is based on a solid foundation, as the universe certainly is created on solid LAWS. And it is the Universe(Al kitaab) that is explained in detail by the reading(quran).

shuaib

salam br taj,

actually i often use a lexicon called Lughaat-ul-Quran which was written specifically with the Quran in mind, and really dives into the essences of the roots. But I usually refer to lisaan-ul-arab since that is the standard lexicon.

I tried using that web sites lisaan but for some reason it starts in the middle of fasl rather than the beginning! buggy?? but anyway, it does not mean detailed. (yet another mistake by Omar and his QD?). it essentially means to delineate between 2 different things, clarify etc. as a corollary to that, it can also mean cut into 2.

funny thing is that link you gave when I searched fasl it showed the meaning sharh! so i'm not sure how we are doing it differently.

http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1

TAJ

Salaams Shuaib,

funny thing is that link you gave when I searched fasl it showed the meaning sharh! so i'm not sure how we are doing it differently.

http//qamoos.sakhr.com/idrisidic_1.asp?Sub=%dd%d5%e1

I will tell you why the dictionary in your link is putting this word Shar7 or Sharh, because this is a modern English-Arabic, Arabic-English dictionary, most probably Al Mawrid, or maybe Al Munjid? Those modern dictionaries do not usually go far back to search for the classic Arabic. They would setlle for what is commonly known!

I tried using that web sites lisaan but for some reason it starts in the middle of fasl rather than the beginning! buggy?? but anyway, it does not mean detailed. (yet another mistake by Omar and his QD?).

I don't know Omar nor heard of his dictionary, maybe because I disregard all the modern dictionaries. But if one is depending on modern dictionaries then one is likely to make many shocking (very common) mistakes as in the case of "Raqam" and "Marqoom"
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3673&start=0

Thank you

mmkhan

Salam Mmkhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaam Marie,

Sorry for the late reply.

wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum WA arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni"
Is this wrong gramatically?

As brother Taj said below, it is not wrong gramatically. Then what could be the purpose of using "wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum WA arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni"?

wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is not wrong gramatically and it is more fluid than "wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni"

I am looking for some more references... InshaAllah, I will quote them if I find.

Regards,

MMKhan

mmkhan

Peace be upon you,

Peace be upon you too brother,

What is the "Al Quraan" that you are referencing? The word "quran" means "reading". That which is "read" is the entire visible Universe, which is truly an illusion. From time to time, human beings reach thier Divine Potentials and recieve direct inspiriation from God within. Then this is written down on pages. At no point is there the instruction to NAME certain pages "Al Quran".

There are only writings by humans, MANY OF THEM, which we must listen to and follow the BEST, and the BEST is decided by debate(hajja) and verification.

Simply as you said "Quraan" means "Reading". It may refer to any book or paragraph or sentence, etc.. But when "Al" is added to it then it will become "The Reading" that is refering only to Al-Quraan that is in Arabic language, sent for the mankind for guidance from Allah.

Like
"Raheem" may refer to any one who is merciful. But
"AlRaheem" is the only ONE who is The Merciful.

I agree with you that all the signs / verses of AlQuraan is visible universally.

Regards,

MMKhan

mmkhan

Salaams MMKhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaams brother Taj,

"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni"
Is this wrong gramatically?

It is not wrong. You can read it as Arjulakum or Arjulikum, .

MMKhan I really can't see the connection between the grammar here and the title of this thread. Can you please tell me why do you see that the difference between Al Quran and Al Kitab is something that has to do with grammar?

Sorry brother, I think you misunderstood. We were discussing something on the Al-Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer.

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Regards,

MMKhan

TAJ

Salaams MMKhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaams brother Taj,

"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni"
Is this wrong gramatically?

It is not wrong. You can read it as Arjulakum or Arjulikum, .

MMKhan I really can't see the connection between the grammar here and the title of this thread. Can you please tell me why do you see that the difference between Al Quran and Al Kitab is something that has to do with grammar?

Sorry brother, I think you misunderstood. We were discussing something on the Al-Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer.

I can't get you, Khan! You say that you "were discussing something on the Al Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer." !!
I find that absurd! If you are discussing something written then grammar should be considered, shouldn't it? How would you disregard grammar if you are discussing written (or read) sentences whether they are Ayat or not?

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

And I am a woman.

mmkhan

salams all,

Wa Alaikum Salaam brother Shuaib,

There is a difference between Al-Kitaab and Al-Quraan.

It can be seen from the following verses

"Thaalika AL-KITAABU laa raiyba feehi, hudan-LILMUTTAQEEN" 22

"Shahru Ramadhaanal-lazee unzila feehi AL-QURAANU hudan-LIN-NAAS" 2185

Al-Kitaab is a guidance for Muttaqeen
Al-Quraan is a guidance for Naas

This both cannot be the same.

You need to look more carefully at the beginning of surah 2. There are 2 groups of people, muttaqeen (those people who wish to save themselves from the various thorns in their path) and those who are not (kuffar). People who are not muttaqeen means people who do not care to save themselves from the various thorns their paths may encounter. They don't care if the path they have taken will lead them straight off of a cliff. They are more interested in immediate joys and immediate rewards, rather than their future rewards/punishments. The Quran says about these people, it is the same whether you warn them or not! And that makes sense, since obviously, if the Quran is meant for those who WANT to protect their future, it will be wasted on someone who does not truly care about their future!

But still, it says "guidance for Muttaqeen"

In that verse, it does not say that this book is not for them. It says it makes no difference whether you warn them or not. But, of course this book and this religion has been sent for the guidance of humanity as a whole.

Does this really matter if it does not say that it is not for them?

And it is not this book brother, it is that book.

" "
"A.L.M, that is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

" "
"And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!" 1741

if you read it (Al-Quraan), you may not get the explaination. But if you look at the writing (Al-Kitaab) you will surely get the explaination how it is refering to washing.

I dont know if you're being serious here. Are you saying al-kitaab is inaccessible then, to the blind person or visually impaired?? This distinction you are making is purely artificial and superficial and is not substantiated in the roots. If your knowledge of Arabic is deep, you can interpret verses just by hearing them... there is nothing magical about seeing it in writing with your eyes.

You might be right brother. But please look at the 56 that we are discussing on above.

kitaab is a general word but is very often used to refer to the Quran. The context lets us know what the usage is, and in 22, it refers to the Quran.
413 is another good example.

Where did you get "is often used to refer to the Quran"? If so, then what means

" "

"Those are the ones to whom We have given the book, and the law, and the prophethood, if they reject it, then We will entrust it to a people who will not reject it." 689

The book (singular) is given to all the Prophets. From your understand Al-Quraan is given to all the Prophets?

May Allah guide us all towards the truth.

Regards,

MMKhan

mmkhan

Salaams MMKhan,

Wa Alaikum Salaams Taj,

I can't get you, Khan! You say that you "were discussing something on the Al Kitaab (which is written) not actually the grammer." !!
I find that absurd! If you are discussing something written then grammar should be considered, shouldn't it? How would you disregard grammar if you are discussing written (or read) sentences whether they are Ayat or not?

Yes you are right. But ... I don't mean this. anyways... that is not important to discuss this I think. Because I agree with what you said.

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

religion authorities?

What I understand is everything word by word has been send from Allah. No religion authorities interfearance allowed. But Allah is the one who made it easy for non-Arabs.

It is not simply that to avoid confusion it might have written. No, but there are specific patterns or forms on which all the ayats / signs / verses has been designed.

Like if you take a closer look at 56 that we are discussing on. If

"Arjulakum" is used, it is refering to washing of legs. Or else if
"Arjulikum" is used, it would refer to wiping of legs. As per the pattern of that verse.

Please follow the discussion from the beginning for more details.

And I am a woman.

Sorry sister

Regards,

MMKhan

TAJ

Salaam Khan,

The actual question is why
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulakum ilal-ka'baiyni" is used instead of
"wamsahoo bi-ru-oosikum wa arjulikum ilal-ka'baiyni" which can also be used in 56

Both are grammatically right. You can write (and read) the words in both ways, either Arjulakum or Arjulikum. Both are grammatically correct. Maybe the reason you would only find one of them instead of the other in the written Quran is because religion authorities must have decided to settle on one way of writing/printing this Ayah, to avoid confusion (among non-Arabs) maybe, that's all.

What I understand is everything word by word has been send from Allah. No religion authorities interfearance allowed. But Allah is the one who made it easy for non-Arabs.

It is not simply that to avoid confusion it might have written. No, but there are specific patterns or forms on which all the ayats / signs / verses has been designed.

Like if you take a closer look at 56 that we are discussing on. If

"Arjulakum" is used, it is refering to washing of legs. Or else if
"Arjulikum" is used, it would refer to wiping of legs. As per the pattern of that verse.

The Quran can be read and written in many ways. Have you not heard of the famous Seven Readings?

Anyway, regarding Arjulakum and Arjulikum, both call for wiping and not washing, because the word appear in another sentence following the one concerning washing the faces and hands-till-elbows.

TAJ

Salaams PB,

2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?
The term used for fully detalied in the above ayat is...fussalna fully detalied. Are you claiming that fussalna in the above ayat, means something other than fully detailed?

(52

And that WE had come to them with a Law We had perfectly designed based on knowledge (so that it would be) Hudan and mercy for people who believe.

A Law the whole universe is created by. But who would recognize the Huda and the Mercy in that Law except people who believe.
I don't see that the Kitaab here is referring to the Quran (the 114 Suras). What I see that it is in the Quran that Allah speaks about that Kitaab about that Law of Creation.

This is what I understand now from . I need to study it further but I would like to see your comment.

unknownuser

Peace be upon you,

Simply as you said "Quraan" means "Reading". It may refer to any book or paragraph or sentence, etc.. But when "Al" is added to it then it will become "The Reading" that is refering only to Al-Quraan that is in Arabic language, sent for the mankind for guidance from Allah.

Yes, anything that is read is a reading(quran), but AL QURAN is THE READING, which is the God's Book, which He created with "Be" and it becomes. Sometimes we see THIS reading which can refer to the written pages.

unknownuser

PEACE, IDOL,

Peace be upon you PB,

752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.

Is there any question in your mind that ayat 752 is referring to Al-Quran?

Yes, because it says "Book" not "reading". Knowledge is that which is based on a solid foundation, as the universe certainly is created on solid LAWS. And it is the Universe(Al kitaab) that is explained in detail by the reading(quran).

Main Entry KATABA to write transcibe inscribe Book writing Scripture written revelation.

Given the above definition then, Al-Kitab, while referring to the Creation, also refers to Al-Quran itself, in that, it is scripture/written revelation. Dictionary of the Holy Quran, by Omar pg. 478.

A. According to your understanding then, the following ayats are not referring to Al-Quran, but the Universe.

22 This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).

378 Most surely there is a party amongst those who distort the Book with their tongue that you may consider it to be (a part) of the Book, and they say, It is from Allah, while it is not from Allah, and they tell a lie against Allah and they know it.

6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.

Did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

181 Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no crookedness

Again...did Allah send/reveal the Universe to the Messenger or did He reveal Al-Kitab-Al-Quran to the Messenger?

456 These are the Ayats of Allah, which We rehearse to you in Truth; then in what HADITH will they believe after Allah and His AYATS?

The ayats in the above ayat, are they the Universe, Al-Quran or both?

B. Another question comes to mind, did Allah leave out any details when He created the Creation/Al-Kitab?

C. If you maintain that, Al-Kitab is not Al-Quran, is Al-Quran, then, fully detailed, in that, as it must be part of Al-Kitab which is fully detailed?

413 A Book, whereof the verses are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand;-

This verse states that the SIGNS (not verses) of the BOOK(universe) are explained in detail by this ARABIC reading. It is the universe that is fully detailed. This arabic reading is a guide, one of the best guides.

While I agree that AYATS is written in the above ayat , nonetheless, Allah, while referring to the natural phenomena as ayats, His Kitab Al-Quran, goes into many other areas which are absolutely pertinent to one's guidance. For example, looking at the Universe, is not going to explain the laws of inheritance. If the ayats, that is the Creation as a whole and its parts, was sufficient as guidance ( guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life (not doing shirk) 2185 & 649, so that, one may pass the test of conduct 187, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining Paradise 649, thus, obivating any need for extra-Quranic sources i.e. sunnah and hadith, for one's guidance. ), then there would have been no need for Messengers and Kitabs/Readings.

Looking forward to your reply.

unknownuser

PEACE, TAJ and SHUAIB,

SHUAIB it essentially means to delineate between 2 different things, clarify etc. as a corollary to that, it can also mean cut into 2.

Both you and Taj, understand fassalna to mean delineate. Let's look at the definition of this term

Main Entry DELINEATE to set forth with accuracy or in detail.

Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specifically.

Given the above definitions, Omar, is not at all off on the definition of fassalna/fussilat. Let me ask you this, do you agree that when Allah created the Creation/Universe, that He delineated/detailed it perfectly, meaning that, He left nothing out of it? I must assume that you will answer in the affirmative, hence, how could He have not done the same when He created Al-Quran?

TAJ Ok, but! Where did Abdul Mannan Omar get his information from? Those classical Arabic-Arabicdictionaries I mentioned Lisaan Al3arab, Al Ghaney, Al Wasee6, Al Mu7ee6 and some others, which are not found in the internet, are really the main source for teh Quranic Arabic. They contain the old Arabic and no modern dictionary can do without them. Yes, sometimes the information in those old books might just shock you because their meanings might not match modern meanings!! I will give you an example

From what I can ascertain, he used the one's you mention and a whole lot more. I don't know how to scan, but perhaps Shuaib, if he has Omar's Dict., might scan pgs 46-48. These pages list his resources.

TAJ Can you see, PB, that a simple small word being mistranslated could collapse the whole theory of code 19?

I do not believe in code 19.

shuaib

salams mmkhan,

But still, it says "guidance for Muttaqeen"

Saying that something IS for something does not automatically mean EXCLUSIVELY for something. If tires are for a car, it does not mean tires are ONLY for cars and are not used for anything else!

And it is not this book brother, it is that book.

" "
"A.L.M, that is the book in which there is no doubt, a guide for the righteous.

" "
"And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion!" 1741

Well, according to some Arabic scholars, thaalika in this sense is referring to "this" book. I dont really understand the finer points about those particular grammatical rules... but given the context, we must deduce that the Quran is being referred to here.

The book (singular) is given to all the Prophets. From your understand Al-Quraan is given to all the Prophets?

Why dont you go back and read my email carefully. My last statement was that kitaab is a general term that is often used for Quran. Often means not always. 689 is an example where kitaab refers to ALL revealed books including the Quran. 413 is an example where kitaab refers specifically to the Quran.

Where did you get "is often used to refer to the Quran"? If so, then what means

I quoted you a verse, 413. Did you check it?

You might be right brother. But please look at the 56 that we are discussing on above.

I know you are discussing it, but it is irrelevant to the discussion. Like I said, even grammatical analysis of the Quran does NOT need writing. It can be done by hearing as well, for someone who is learned in Arabic.

I dont know how well you know Arabic, but the argument you have put forward is truly invalid. I won't go into this in detail now since it's irrelevant anyway. Suffice it to say that your delineation of words into majroor and mansoob and using that fact to attach it to a particular verb, is grammatically wrong.