Understanding zina
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Peace Naxus and Shams,
024.033 Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD's money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful
i think here Allah want us to get married rather to be boy friend girl friend marriage is not only for sex but its about the responsibilties whicih both the partner share about each other peace
Brother Naxus, it appears that Shams does not believe in following the Quran.
I am a believer in The All but I have to disagree that Quran is a must to be followed.
Thank you for clarifying that you do not believe in Quran as the word of The God and do not follow it for your guidance and source of law. I am not clear yet if you accept The God or not and I don't know what you mean by "the all". We should not idolize the ego and follow its desires. The God says the following in Al-Quran, which I know you do not believe in following but I am quoting from it to let you know what it says
2544 Have you seen the one who has taken his ego as his god? Will you be a caretaker over him?
4523 Have you seen the one who took his ego as his god, and God led him astray, despite his knowledge, and He sealed his hearing and his heart, and He made a veil on his eyes? Who then can guide him after God? Will you not remember?I understand Zina to be cheating someone to have sex.
It seems like you have invented your own new definition of zina. Please give a reference to support your definition of "zina".
Are you suggesting that I am a total separate entity/existence other than God?
You are not God but God is closer to you than the jugular vein. His Rouh is in you.
1529 And your Lord said to the Angels "I am creating a human from a hardened clay."
1530 "So when I perfect him, and blow of My Rouh in him, you shall submit to him."
5017 And We have created man and We know what his soul whispers to him, and We are closer to him than his jugular vein.Please see the following for more detail
http//free-minds.org/articles/science/human.htm
that was a very bad example. You violated the owner?s right and you never had an agreement with the owner to sell his car to others. The car manufacturer never complains on what you do with your car once its bought. But obviously you face the consequences of your own action later on.
The body which contains our soul and the rouh does not belong to us. It belongs to its Creator and submits to it willingly or unwillingly. The only power given to us is the free will to choose our actions and when we use our free will to choose to perform an unrighteous action, we are going against the will of the Creator. The car manufacturer never complains once the car is bought but what if one has not bought the car yet. The body still belongs to The God so one cannot do whatever one wants with it. One has to follow the rules laid down by The God otherwise one will face serious consequences on the Last Day for "violating the lease agreement".
You cheat, you get cheated also. Sometime you get cheated also when you think u haven?t cheated anyone.. How would you explain that..? But every action has a reaction and we find many things unfair cause we can?t figure out the missing link in our daily act.
One is cheating on The God by using the body owned by Him to perform an action not authorized by Him. That is the missing link which you fail to understand.
A gf/bf relation can be true or untrue as a marriage can be also like that. It all boils down to ones intension. Can you see intention? None of us can. All we can do is assume or do some math based on the actions.
So when I am talking abt gf/bf, I am talking abt those who have good intensions in relation and willing to take care of each other and fulfill the responsibility. There is nothing to hide in a gf/bf relation. Parents can also acknowledge it. Thats why France has a rule for bf/gf also, to protect their rights and also the child(if any is born).
gf/bf sexual relation is not the same as marriage. It is unauthorized by the Creator so one's intentions do not matter as one is already violating the Creators commands. Who knows when one will stop fulfilling one's responsibilities following one's ego's wishes. Then who will protect the rights of the people affected? The Earth and our bodies belong to The God and we have to follow His rules and not what some country decides to follow.
Its just not creating a big deal as most Asians do with this paper thing. It seems most asian culture values the paper more than the emotional bindings.
Marriage is not just a paper thing as you keep saying. Relationship is not just physical or emotional. It is mental and spiritual also and is associated with commitment and responsibility and the only way one can prove that one is really being responsible is by declaring the relationship publicly in front of witnesses and getting the consent of the Creator. If one does not do that then one is cheating with The God and one's partner because as you said no person knows the other's intentions. If one's intentions are true then one needs to prove it by getting married first.
I think millions of ppl have been misguided by that little peace of paper and "what others think", as most seems to idolize those things in a marriage rather than emotional binding.
bf/gf doesnt mean that they don?t love each other as marriage also doesn?t mean that husband/wife love each other.
It all depends on the intension which we cant see.
Millions of people are misguided by satan and their ego which they idolize. You accept that no person can see your intentions. So how can one prove to one's so called sexual partner that one's intentions are really true? The only way one can prove that is by getting married and being fully legally responsible for the consequences of one's selfish physical desires and protecting the rights of one's sexual partner and the future children that can result as the consequence of one's acts.
I hope that we all choose to accept The God and obey Him and do the righteous deeds, then The God will guide us to the straight path.
Tanveer
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Peace all.
Tanveer, what are you doing? Surely, you're not suggesting that a person give up something he wants to do simply because The Quran says so? Why, that would be...let's see...submitting to God.
When I decided to become Muslim, it wasn't the pork I cared about giving up. I can pass on bacon any day. But giving up the idea that I could act on my desires without consequences, well, that was more difficult. If there were any loopholes, I would have surely found them.
Based on my own view of things, I don't see anything wrong with the type of relationship that Shams and his girlfriend have. But God does, and He says so in The Quran. I trust God's judgment more than my own, therefore I submit to His Way...and this means no sex outside marriage.
The laws for divorce are easy in Islam, so why not get married? If, as you say, it's just a piece of paper, why not sign that contract and be assured that you're doing the right thing before God? You don't have to answer here, but the answer within yourself may be show you that the commitment isn't fully there. That you want to try out the relationship before you sign any contracts.
And Elke's right. D Some of the discussion here sounds like testimony from Clinton's impeachment. There seems to be a lot of playing around with the definition of a word in order to make it fit with desires.
Kissing (the romantic kind) is intimate physical contact that is a way to make contact and show physical interest in another person. Is anybody really going to play sucky face with someone they don't have desires for? And that's a far different thing than a family or friend kiss. If you can handle kissing with the confidence you will go no further, well, then you know the limits of your own temptations. But for the other things mentioned, they lead to the fulfillment of sexual desires...and that is most definitely having sex with someone.
Anyone who is determined to excuse his or her behavior can usually find some sort of justification. But not without consequences. There's an old expression around where I live for that kind of determination...we call it being "hell-bent" on doing something.
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Salaamun alaikum all,
The word "ZINA" according to dictionary of the Quran by Abdul Mannan Omar means adultery or fornication.
ADULTERY means the following
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Adultery \Adul"tery, n.; pl. Adulteries.
- The unfaithfulness of a married person to the marriage
bed; sexual intercourse by a married man with another than
his wife, or voluntary sexual intercourse by a married
woman with another than her husband.
From WordNet (r) 1.6
adultery
n extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes
with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as
grounds for divorce"From Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary
Adultery
conjugal infidelity. An adulterer was a man who had illicit
intercourse with a married or a betrothed woman, and such a
woman was an adulteress. Intercourse between a married man and
an unmarried woman was fornication. Adultery was regarded as a
great social wrong, as well as a great sin.FORNICATION means the following
From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Fornication \For`ni*ca"tion, n.
- Unlawful sexual intercourse on the part of an unmarried
person; the act of such illicit sexual intercourse between
a man and a woman as does not by law amount to adultery.
Note In England, the offense, though cognizable in the
ecclesiastical courts, was not at common law subject to
secular prosecution. In the United States it is
indictable in some States at common law, in others only
by statute. --Whartyon.- (Script.)
(a) Adultery.
(b) Incest.
(c) Idolatry.
From WordNet (r) 1.6
fornication
n 1 voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to
each other
2 extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes
with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as
grounds for divorce"SEXUAL INTERCOURSE means the following
From WordNet (r) 1.6
sexual intercourse
n the act of sexual procreation between a man and a woman; the
man's penis is inserted into the woman's vagina and
excited until orgasm and ejaculation occurSo as I have clearly demonstrated, zina is both adultery and fornication involving extramarital or pre-marital illicit sexual intercourse. So sexual intercourse between gf/bf is ZINA and is prohibited.
Kissing could be sexual and nonsexual. Sexual kissing leads to sexual arousal and nonsexual kissing (e.g. mother kissing son) does not lead to sexual arousal. IMO Sexual kissing if performed extramarital or pre-marital (e.g. gf/bf) would be one of the FAHISHATUN and is prohibited. Similarly IMO oral sex would be FAHISHATUN also and is prohibited if performed extramarital or pre-marital. Finally IMO anal sex is FAHISHATUN and is forbidden in any situation.
May Allah help us avoid zina and fawahish.
why are you quoting these dictionaries? did god tell you to follow these to get your definition of words in the quran or did he tell you to follow quran alone??
- The unfaithfulness of a married person to the marriage
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Dear Kb,
why are you quoting these dictionaries? did god tell you to follow these to get your definition of words in the quran or did he tell you to follow quran alone??
Firstly, I did not quite understand what you said, because English is not my first language. Please define the English words you used and tell me what they mean.
Secondly, please tell me how you can find out the meaning of all the Arabic words used in the Quran, especially if you do not know Arabic. For example tell me what is the meaning of "wa" in Quran. Also tell me what "qul" means and what "zina" means. Please do not just tell me what it means, prove it also.
Thirdly, please tell me how trying to find out the meaning of a word in Quran is "not following Quran?"
If you cannot answer all of my 3 questions then please do not bother to reply. Oh, did I forget to mention that to answer all my questions you CANNOT use or quote from a dictionary. I will not accept your or any other person's authority for what you tell me, without a valid reference or definitive proof.
Thanking you in anticipation,
Tanveer
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geeee..what a great discussion, It is really appreciated D ..So, I guess tanveermd has given out a detailed explanation and so do the rest of you..Ok..we are done with ZINA,..let us talk about marriage...ok..I saw sham talking about "a piece of paper" or something...ok, is it a must to sign the "document" or something? How about in the case where...2 person like each other but their family don't accept their relationship...Can they get married? Or marriage is just an agreement between 2 person that to live together and to take the responsibilities to take care each other....or they need some witnesses or something to proved that they are married? I mean without taking your country law into consideration as different country have a different law...
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salam all.
How about in the case where...2 person like each other but their family don't accept their relationship...Can they get married?....
hmm. i think one is not supposed to disobey the parents ,right . so what if the parents dont want one to marry the person he/she wants to marry . should he disobey the parents .?
same question, i know .
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Peace all,
I believe that what we "owe" to our parents, as described in the scripture, is "ihssane"= kindness and respect. Nowhere I read that we owe them "obedience", but out of mercy, we should spare them abjectness.
But I understand that parents usually take "respect=obedience" although they are different. We should be patient with them as they were with us when we were young.
--
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Dear Kb,
why are you quoting these dictionaries? did god tell you to follow these to get your definition of words in the quran or did he tell you to follow quran alone??
Firstly, I did not quite understand what you said, because English is not my first language. Please define the English words you used and tell me what they mean.
Secondly, please tell me how you can find out the meaning of all the Arabic words used in the Quran, especially if you do not know Arabic. For example tell me what is the meaning of "wa" in Quran. Also tell me what "qul" means and what "zina" means. Please do not just tell me what it means, prove it also.
Thirdly, please tell me how trying to find out the meaning of a word in Quran is "not following Quran?"
If you cannot answer all of my 3 questions then please do not bother to reply. Oh, did I forget to mention that to answer all my questions you CANNOT use or quote from a dictionary. I will not accept your or any other person's authority for what you tell me, without a valid reference or definitive proof.
Thanking you in anticipation,
Tanveer
I am not saying trying to find out a meaning of a word in quran is not following quran but if you are using dictionaries that people wrote to come up with a meaning of a word in the quran rather then taking the literal meaning of a word as the quran explains it then are you really following the quran alone or are you following other sources as your relgious guidance also? I cannot read the quran in arabic so I wouldn't be able to tell you the definition of those words according to quran. I think the correct way of knowing the meanings of words in quran would be for you to go learn the language of quran instead of relying on others interpretations of words and dictionaries.
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KB...even if Arabic were your native language, you would still need a dictionary from time to time to understand certain words...or the possible variations in meanings of those words.
The translation of the word is not in question...what is in question is the "scope" of the word.
Naxus cited a passage from The Quran that addresses the issue of marriage and responsibilities. Tanveer then gave the translation of the word "zina" from a dictionary of The Quran and expounded on this by showing the scope of the word in English, since that is the language we are using in this forum. Tanveer then went on to give excellent examples of how we can either seek to submit to God through appropriate behavior or seek to serve our own desires by trying to make a word fit with what we want.
But, when you look at the use of dictionaries, wasn't this discussion, in and of itself, a language lesson? Therefore, isn't this actually part of "learning the language of The Quran"?
If not, then how would you go about learning this language without a translator, a translation and a dictionary? And who would teach you? How would you know that your classical Arabic teacher's translations are correct?
By your argument, a person would have to be born knowing classical Arabic and the nuances of each word. Then there would be no need for a dictionary of any kind...unless that person wanted to share his or her knowledge with others.
Peace.
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Dear Kb,
I cannot read the quran in arabic so I wouldn't be able to tell you the definition of those words according to quran. I think the correct way of knowing the meanings of words in quran would be for you to go learn the language of quran instead of relying on others interpretations of words and dictionaries.
As Sytalls has mentioned, it is impossible for someone to be born knowing the complete Classical Arabic language needed to understand Quran. You have to learn it from a teacher or a dictionary and then see which particular meaning of a word has been used in Quran according to the context and its general usage in Quran. Even modern Arabs do not know the meaning of some of the Classical Arabic words used in Quran without the help of a standard Classical Arabic dictionary. Foreigners have to learn the Quranic language through a teacher or a dictionary too. Please go through Sytalls excellent post and then answer the following
- Please tell me the meaning of the following words in Quran "wa", "laa", "innahu", and "kaana".
- How do you learn the language of Quran without using any Classical Arabic dictionary, or grammar book or a human teacher?
- How will you find out what "zina" means in Quran using Quran only?
To help you out I will give you all the "zina" verses from the Quran
1733
243
244
2569
6013
652
Don't just criticize me without any base. Please answer my questions. YOU CANNOT USE ANY DICTIONARY OR ANY BOOK OTHER THAN QURAN OR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING TO FIND OUT THE MEANINGS.
The way you have written your post makes it clear that you have never made any attempt to find out what different words in Quran mean. People like you just sit there and criticize others without making any actual attempts to find out what Quranic words mean.
If you cannot answer my questions then please do not pass your judgement on others because you will be accountable to The God for making false accusations.
Regards,
Tanveer
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Dear Kb,
I cannot read the quran in arabic so I wouldn't be able to tell you the definition of those words according to quran. I think the correct way of knowing the meanings of words in quran would be for you to go learn the language of quran instead of relying on others interpretations of words and dictionaries.
As Sytalls has mentioned, it is impossible for someone to be born knowing the complete Classical Arabic language needed to understand Quran. You have to learn it from a teacher or a dictionary and then see which particular meaning of a word has been used in Quran according to the context and its general usage in Quran. Even modern Arabs do not know the meaning of some of the Classical Arabic words used in Quran without the help of a standard Classical Arabic dictionary. Foreigners have to learn the Quranic language through a teacher or a dictionary too. Please go through Sytalls excellent post and then answer the following
- Please tell me the meaning of the following words in Quran "wa", "laa", "innahu", and "kaana".
- How do you learn the language of Quran without using any Classical Arabic dictionary, or grammar book or a human teacher?
- How will you find out what "zina" means in Quran using Quran only?
To help you out I will give you all the "zina" verses from the Quran
1733
243
244
2569
6013
652
Don't just criticize me without any base. Please answer my questions. YOU CANNOT USE ANY DICTIONARY OR ANY BOOK OTHER THAN QURAN OR ANY OTHER HUMAN BEING TO FIND OUT THE MEANINGS.
The way you have written your post makes it clear that you have never made any attempt to find out what different words in Quran mean. People like you just sit there and criticize others without making any actual attempts to find out what Quranic words mean.
If you cannot answer my questions then please do not pass your judgement on others because you will be accountable to The God for making false accusations.
Regards,
Tanveer
Tanveer I did not pass any judgement on you, go back and read my posts, I simply just asked you some questions and told you what I thought, I never said you have to be born knowing the complete classical arabic, I know that you have to try and learn it somehow, I am just suggesting to you to try learning the language of quran so you can verify the correct meanings of quranic words using the context of quran to help you, thanks for giving me the zina verses but I don't know how to read arabic yet so I wouldn't be able to tell you, isn't there a verse in quran that describes what zina is? how else would we know the correct meaning if we don't use the quran alone? like lets say u look in dictionary and you get like 5 different definitions of a word in quran, tell me how would you know what the correct meaning is?
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Salaamun alaikum Kb,
why are you quoting these dictionaries? did god tell you to follow these to get your definition of words in the quran or did he tell you to follow quran alone??
Tanveer I did not pass any judgement on you, go back and read my posts, I simply just asked you some questions and told you what I thought
I apologize for thinking that you were trying to pass judgement on me that I do not follow Quran alone. Your questions above seemed to imply that, but you have clarified that they were just inquisitive rather than judgemental.
I never said you have to be born knowing the complete classical arabic, I know that you have to try and learn it somehow, I am just suggesting to you to try learning the language of quran so you can verify the correct meanings of quranic words using the context of quran to help you
One cannot learn the Classical Arabic language by inspiration from The God. The Quran is not a book meant to teach the Classical Arabic language to a foreigner. It was revealed in Arabic language because the people it was revealed to already knew that language and they could understand it and spread its message to others. So even the Quran implies that one has to learn its language from the people who already know the language in which it was revealed, obviously through a teacher and/or a dictionary and/or a grammar text.
123 We have sent it down an Arabic compilation, perhaps you will comprehend.
1339 And as such, We have sent it down a law in Arabic.
146 And We have not sent any messenger except in the language of his people, so he may clarify to them.
26196 In a clear Arabic tongue.
3928 A compilation in Arabic, without any crookedness, that they may be righteous.
413 A Scripture whose verses are detailed, a compilation in Arabic for a people who know.
4144 And had We made it a non-Arabic compilation, they would have said "If only its verses were made clear!" Non-Arabic and Arabic, Say "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, there is a deafness in their ears, and they are blind to it. These will be called from a place far away."
426 And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic compilation, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Gathering that is inevitable.
4456 We have thus made it easy in your language, perhaps they may take heed.Once you have learned the Quranic language or the various meanings of a Quranic word through an appropriate dictionary then of course you can verify the correct meaning as used in Quran using the context of the Quran as you are correctly suggesting. The dictionary of Quran is used just to get all the possible meanings of the word and then you have to find out what meaning fits the Quranic context best.
3918 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
3953 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.like lets say u look in dictionary and you get like 5 different definitions of a word in quran, tell me how would you know what the correct meaning is?
Once you get 5 different definitions of a word then you see which meaning fits the word best by looking at its usage in the verse, the context of the verse, the related verses, the general usage of that word in Quran, relating the meaning to "examples" in Quran, and maintaining consistency without causing any contradiction.
For examples, and how to read and study the Quran please go through the following links
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/reading.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/study.htm
http//free-minds.org/women/beating.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/themessenger/salatala.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/theft.htm
http//free-minds.org/articles/quranic/malakat.htmGod bless,
Tanveer
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Peace All,
zina is a difficult and important subject and personnally i had a lot of difficulty in defining my position.
I do no follow the definition of zina = adultery when married and fornication when unmarried - these are two different meanings and god doesn't run out of words...and what is really the definition of marriage ?
The basic rule i believe is that one has just one partner that one is sentimentally involved and ready to commit with while engaged in the (sexual) relation- monogamy - and that there should be no cheating - be it through (sexual) relations with other persons or just through changing your mind concerning your commitment... Polygamy (if it really exists...) exists only for the sake of social security of widows with orphaned children...
Life example i used to be married - the legal way. Husband cheated and i wanted out. He didn't let me go (arab country laws...). Even though our marriage was over, i was still legally married cause he wouldn't divorce. I did leave him some time to change his mind but after about a year i committed WHAT ???
Dont tell me i committed adultery! I wont accept it. Now, if you say it was fornication, i tell you it had a relation with someone i (still am) very much in love with... Been divorced here for about two years now but still cannot remarry cause my divorce didn't pass in the other country where i got married the first time....so it's a question of piece of paper...
I do not believe God considers these papers, but rather the purity or unpurity of our intentions.
Now you legalists, as said our prophet Jesus - "you throw the first stone" !
Elke
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Peace,
thanks Elke.Geeee...This discussion is getting more interesting..I believe everyone is learning something from here....Well, yeah....As I said earlier..Zina is such a difficult and important subject..yet not that many people really want to talk about it...I started this thread as I see so many people still confused with what Zina really mean (including me) and I can also see...we have different people with different opinion..So, I hope that one day, after all the discussion and research on it, we will all agree about something...
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Peace all,
We should submit and surrender to The God instead of succumbing to our desires and considering what is prohibited to be lawful, otherwise we will be idolizing our ego. That is what the test is about. All tests are hard including resisting physical desires. But with hardship comes ease, so we should strive to walk the straight path and be patient
947 With hardship comes ease.
If one has committed a mistake one should repent to The God soon after and never repeat it again, for The God is Forgiving and Merciful.
542 Whoever repents after his wrongdoing and makes reparations, then God will accept his repentance. God is Forgiving, Merciful.
7154 As for those who commit sin but then repent afterwards and believe; your Lord after that is Forgiving, Merciful.Elke, it makes me sad to hear about your situation. It is never too late to repent. IMHO you should try to get married soon to the person you care about so you can fulfil your desires the right way, while submitting and surrendering to The God. If you cannot get married then you should try to be patient, and The God will make all your problems go away eventually. This life is just an illusion, the life hereafter is the real life and eternal.
4733 And We will test you until We distinguish those who strive among you and those who are patient. And We will bring out your qualities.
2434 And let those who are not able to marry continue to be chaste until God enriches them of His Bounty.
2234 And there is no sin upon you if you openly propose marriage to these women, or you keep it between yourselves. God knows that you will be thinking of them, but do not meet them secretly, unless you have something righteous to say. -
I think the concepts that are being dealt with here must be analyzed. There are ways to arrive at a conceptual definition using literature itself and the usage of the word (thats how dictionaries are formed, they describe the concept). I see no reason we can't arrive at a conceptual definition of marriage and zina by using the Quran. Merely saying that the Quran prohibts Zina and only allows relations with people we are married to is not enough, because then it boils down to what exactly is marriage? The concept you will find in the dictionary will be the concept as connected with british (english) culture/religion. That is how they define marriage, and so their dictionaries state it as thus. A different concept would be the "institution of marriage" as specified by Socrates in the Republic. The concept here is not an institution of contracts or arranged marriages etc., to Socrates and his people, marriage simpling meant 'mating'. WHen Socrates mentions that the state makes life possible by establishing and protecting the institution of marriage, he means exactly that. The state establishes laws to protect both partners who have decided to 'mate' (remember the greek conceptual definition of marriage is simpy 'mating'). This is nothing to do with contracts, or ritualistic marriages, rather, it only declares as legal the process of human pairbonding. Humans find their own mates just like other animals, I think the Quran is somewhere along this line. A couple that has mated is "married" in effect, as marriage does not mean the same thing here as it does in english (christian definition). Allah has installed certain protections for the woman, such as ujoor, farida etc., and divorce is simply breaking up, but with the time limitation to protect any children that may come out of the relationship. Some argue that paying a woman who is in a relationship with you is prostitution, but Dr. Tatiania (http//www.drtatiana.com/) has a different point of view. In her research, she found that many animals use some sort of gifts in exchange for sex, especially the human female. Upon receiving money/gifts, the effect on human females is one of arousal. Although not all women are like this, this discovery is not startling considering the responsibilities placed on the man by Allah. They were there for a reason. (to the be the protectors and maintainers of women), and the ujoor could possibly be wages not dowry, as that would probably keep the relationship going. The woman likes getting gifts/money, and the man respects more what he pays for, otherwise the same problem happens that happens in the western countries, high promiscuity rate, and high divorce rate. I suppose there is some logic to paying your mate after all.
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Peace all
This is indeed an interesting topic, especially when examining the subtleties of relationships and what constitutes "marriage."
Elke, so sorry about all you've been through. I think your situation is quite different from sham's, who seems to be testing the relationship waters, so to speak It's a different mind set. You seem to have already made a commitment before God and others, which is lacking only a non-religious contract. It is one thing to be hedging on a commitment but still wanting to have sex...and another to be in a situation where you are, for all intents and purposes, already married to the second man.
The people who refuse to grant you your rights are violating Islamic law, are they not? After four months, you are supposed to reconcile or be set free in a dignified way. So abiding by a law that is in confict with The Quran seems irrelevant, since you were well past the four-month waiting period after leaving the first husband.
Which brings up an interesting point that zach made about the concept of marriage? Does it have to be recognized by any country's court system? Or could people follow what is stated in The Quran. Couldn't the dowry be paid, vows of commitment expressed in front of witnesses and the union of the couple be recognized as a valid marriage before God?
Oh, one side note, backtracking to something said earlier in this thread...in NC, it is actually illegal for unmarried people to have sex. It's a misdemeanor, and a woman here recently lost her job with the local police department because she lived with her boyfriend. The man who fired her said he wouldn't arrest her, but he couldn't have anyone who was knowingly committing a crime working in a law enforcement office.
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Elke, so sorry about all you've been through. I think your situation is quite different from sham's, who seems to be testing the relationship waters, so to speak It's a different mind set.
dear sytalls,
I never mentioned in any of my post that I have gf or in any sort of relation. It was Tanveer who said I'm having a sexual relation with ma gf and thus commiting Zina. I hope he did it without knowing as he seems to be quite hyped up. It is possible that human makes mistake in such hype mood.
Anyway, imagine ppl like you and others who will take it as true and think that I have a gf and having sex. This is how False Hadith are spread even without knowing the truth.
Well, I have different thought and In my view sexual relation is fine within true lovers. It depends on both party, either they have reached that level of trust to share their body. But who am I to judge their intensions?
the way I see a relation is that, 2 person loves each other, both side parents are aware of the relation, even friends are aware of it. So where is glitch? If anyone cheats on the other than there is court to protect their rights and obviously witnesses are their.
Well one might ask what if witnesses lie? Well this lying can happen even when 2 ppl are institutionally married.
I am not against the paper work. Moreover I think its a good thing to have evidence in hard copy. But everything is possible in this world and a paper work can?t give the ultimate protection. Thats why I emphasize more on emotional binding rather than institutional drama, So that ppl get in relation because they are in love.
Does the state owns a citizen?s body? Than how can the state run verdict on whom he/she is sharing his/her body with? State can only act when there is a violation of anyone?s right.
these are just my opinion...
Peace
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I think the concepts that are being dealt with here must be analyzed. There are ways to arrive at a conceptual definition using literature itself and the usage of the word (thats how dictionaries are formed, they describe the concept). I see no reason we can't arrive at a conceptual definition of marriage and zina by using the Quran. Merely saying that the Quran prohibts Zina and only allows relations with people we are married to is not enough, because then it boils down to what exactly is marriage? The concept you will find in the dictionary will be the concept as connected with british (english) culture/religion. That is how they define marriage, and so their dictionaries state it as thus. A different concept would be the "institution of marriage" as specified by Socrates in the Republic. The concept here is not an institution of contracts or arranged marriages etc., to Socrates and his people, marriage simpling meant 'mating'. WHen Socrates mentions that the state makes life possible by establishing and protecting the institution of marriage, he means exactly that. The state establishes laws to protect both partners who have decided to 'mate' (remember the greek conceptual definition of marriage is simpy 'mating'). This is nothing to do with contracts, or ritualistic marriages, rather, it only declares as legal the process of human pairbonding. Humans find their own mates just like other animals, I think the Quran is somewhere along this line. A couple that has mated is "married" in effect, as marriage does not mean the same thing here as it does in english (christian definition). Allah has installed certain protections for the woman, such as ujoor, farida etc., and divorce is simply breaking up, but with the time limitation to protect any children that may come out of the relationship. Some argue that paying a woman who is in a relationship with you is prostitution, but Dr. Tatiania (http//www.drtatiana.com/) has a different point of view. In her research, she found that many animals use some sort of gifts in exchange for sex, especially the human female. Upon receiving money/gifts, the effect on human females is one of arousal. Although not all women are like this, this discovery is not startling considering the responsibilities placed on the man by Allah. They were there for a reason. (to the be the protectors and maintainers of women), and the ujoor could possibly be wages not dowry, as that would probably keep the relationship going. The woman likes getting gifts/money, and the man respects more what he pays for, otherwise the same problem happens that happens in the western countries, high promiscuity rate, and high divorce rate. I suppose there is some logic to paying your mate after all.
Great explanation! This is something interesting that I believe not only me getting a useful knowledge...I'm happy that this discussion is getting more serious and people giving out their opinion seriously....