AL-KAHF (THE CAVE)

asifwadud

There is a story in this Sura about Musa meeting a person(known as Al-Khidr) and there are descriptions of three incidents taking place with him. What is there to learn from this Musa's encounter with this knowledgeable person. If someone knows please explain, this is important.

Fahad1

There is a story in this Sura about Musa meeting a person(known as Al-Khidr) and there are descriptions of three incidents taking place with him. What is there to learn from this Musa's encounter with this knowledgeable person. If someone knows please explain, this is important.

salam asif.
one of the things that we learn is that there is good in everything and Allah is doing everything for a reason . and we should not question Allah's wisdom .

asifwadud

I have been visited by one of my relatives who happens to be a Khadem of a Mazar(they do all sorts of things that can be considered Shirk prostration to the grave of the saints, praying to the saint instead of Allah). He first quoted from Sura Al-Fatiha
"Show us the straight way,"
"The path of those whom Thou hast favoured;"

Then using a verse from Sura Nisa he said that the "favoured" ones are prophets, saints etc.
Whoso obeyeth Allah and the messenger, they are with those unto whom Allah hath shown favour, of the prophets and the saints and the martyrs and the righteous. (004.069)

What he is saying is that to know the "straigth way" mentioned in Sura Al-Fatiha we need to go to the "favoured" ones and if we dont go to them then we are disobeying Allah as per Sura Al-Fatiha. So he is saying that we need to go to saints so that we can see the straight path. Then he also said that once we go to the saints no matter whatever they tell us to do, we should do it without questioning even if it goes against the law of Quran, common sense etc. For the support he uses Musa's encounter with Al-Khidir from Sura Al-Kahb.

What more? there is another post I have started where he is trying to validate why prostraiting to the grave of the saints is allowed, nay, a must for us.

I am trying my best to make him understand that the straight path can be found by following Allah and His messenger from 469- one doesnt have to go to the mazar of saints and serve there to see the straight path, but he keeps uttering from the Story of Musa and AlKhidir. That's why I need to know the explanation of the story of Musa and Al-Khidir in Sura Kahb.

Someone

Peace asifwadud, all

This chapter is indeed one of the most opaque in the scripture. I remember my first reading of the scripture from cover to cover, I tried to put all my "logical and rationnal" abilities in analysing the signs, and it took almost 2 years to finish the book.

The reason why I'm talking about this anecdote is that at this very chapter, I realised that all "my logical and rationnal" thinking was not enough, I had to "let go" a part of my ego, the part that thinks "it knows it all". In a way I had to admit that I'm limited, and that I need a bit of "faith" to overcome this situation, to be able to continue the reading.

It was like being in a dark cave where you can hardly discern anything, with no choice but to put your trust in "a guide who knows the way" to get you out. Staying in the dark was the other alternative, but I made the choice to advance with "faith and rationnal" thinking, seeking a way in between.

Getting back to the subject, some points as understood from the chapter

The number of "the people of the cave" is know only by the god and a small group of people, maybe the people who actually lived the incident. Many people are conjecturing about their number without certain knowledge.
And from the story of mousa', we can see that "Over eachone with knowledge, there is a more knowledgeable one". And patience is the key to learn.
Not to be hasty in passing judgement over the first impression, we have to look deeper searching for the meanings.
And there is no one that know it all, only the god the all-knowing the wise.

Surely there is more to learn from the chapter, this is but my own understanding and "some memories of feelings" wink .

--

zenje

Salaam Someone,

Thanks for sharing, that was wonderful.

You remind me of my cousin who had the same problem with that particular chapter and that particular incident with Musa. As you said;

It was like being in a dark cave where you can hardly discern anything, with no choice but to put your trust in "a guide who knows the way" to get you out. Staying in the dark was the other alternative, but I made the choice to advance with "faith and rationnal" thinking, seeking a way in between.
I'm afraid he didn't take the same path you did, and ended up leaving quran altogether. ( He currently believes in a god or some higher power, but thats about it. It's amazing how a couple of verses can either 'make you or break you'.

Peace

el-Aziz

Well, in my opinion there are two virtues spelled out, namely

Patiance
"you have to be patient"
Modesty

that there's always someone that knows more than you, and with a portion of the virtue above, you might be able to achieve and perceive the reason to be modest and humble

Wakas

peace,

I seem to recall members discussing what we can learn from various stories within 'the reading' ('al quran') but I couldn't find the thread for you. Perhaps someone else can. I cant recall if this story was specifically discussed though.

I did find a thread which listed all the signs relevant to Moses
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3437

Then he also said that once we go to the saints no matter whatever they tell us to do, we should do it without questioning even if it goes against the law of Quran, common sense etc. For the support he uses Musa's encounter with Al-Khidir from Sura Al-Kahb.

The story of Moses does not imply that at all.

Wakas

kzd

There is a story in this Sura about Musa meeting a person(known as Al-Khidr) and there are descriptions of three incidents taking place with him. What is there to learn from this Musa's encounter with this knowledgeable person. If someone knows please explain, this is important.

Salaam,

I agree with el-Aziz and add more to it.

Start with the end of Sura

18110 Say, "I am no more than a human like you, being inspired that your god is one god. Those who hope to meet their Lord shall work righteousness, and never worship any other god beside his Lord."

If it is not clear work your way further back,

18101They are the ones whose eyes were too veiled to see My message. Nor could they hear.
18102 Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as gods (or allies if you like) beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.
18103 Say, "Shall I tell you who the worst losers are?
18104"They are the ones whose works in this life are totally astray, but they think that they are doing good."
18105 Such are the ones who disbelieved in the revelations of their Lord and in meeting Him. Therefore, their works are in vain; on the Day of Resurrection, they have no weight.

Do you see the point yet? A main point is to show that Moses was no more than a human being, with precious little knowledge or power. All that matters is the message itself do not worship any other god but God. And the message in the Quran is complete and detailed

18109 Say, "If the ocean were ink for the words of my Lord, the ocean would run out, before the words of my Lord run out, even if we double the ink supply."

Moses whom God honors so in the Quran, mentioning his name more than any other human being, saying I created you for Myself, etc, commits tremendous sin by killing another human being unjustly (other verses), does not even have enough knowledge to know what was going on with this servant of God, commits sins by repeatedly breaking his promise to him, etc. No need to glorify messengers beyond who they really were human beings like you and me, limited in every way, in particular dead (show me, where are they now) having zero power other than what God had given them.

It is all about who one chooses as his god. Many are not even aware of who their god, their lord and master is. All are not aware who their god is some of the time. Our actions what we say, do, how we lead our life is what bears this out for ourselves.

18102 Do those who disbelieve think that they can get away with setting up My servants as (or allies if you like) beside Me? We have prepared for the disbelievers Hell as an eternal abode.
18103 Say, "Shall I tell you who the worst losers are?
18104"They are the ones whose works in this life are totally astray, but they think that they are doing good."
18105 Such are the ones who disbelieved in the revelations of their Lord and in meeting Him. Therefore, their works are in vain; on the Day of Resurrection, they have no weight.

Peace

unknownuser

Peace be upon you all,

The story of Musa and the "Unnamed" teacher teaches us first and foremost about patience and humbling ourselves to be taught by a greater Mind. To understand that our intellect is faulty and the cause of much straying.

I can only speak on one of the stories, which is the young boy who was killed who had not killed another. The first question one must ask is does the God kill innocent boys? Does the God order wickedness? The answer is no, so this tells us to be patient and look deeper. Throughout the reading, "sons" "young boy", etc are used as symbolisms. A "young boy" is related to a new idea/thought because it is active and newly formed, unlike, for example, the symbolism ot the OLD WOMAN who is passive and rigid, like Lots wife, she could not change from the culture that had impregnated her spirit(nafs) so she lagged behind.

The God gives us the example of Ibrahim, we must be prepared to sacrifice our own IDEAS/THOUGHTS (son) for the God's Path. Thats what this is about.

So when The unnammed teacher killed the "young man", it symbolized that we must not see this as literal, we have to seek the deeper meaning, but if you have no patience, you will continue to settle for the literal meanings which will throw us in all kinds of directions.

For now, just deal with the question of "Does the God order wickedness?"

asifwadud

I can only speak on one of the stories, which is the young boy who was killed who had not killed another. The first question one must ask is does the God kill innocent boys? Does the God order wickedness? The answer is no, so this tells us to be patient and look deeper. Throughout the reading, "sons" "young boy", etc are used as symbolisms. A "young boy" is related to a new idea/thought because it is active and newly formed, unlike, for example, the symbolism ot the OLD WOMAN who is passive and rigid, like Lots wife, she could not change from the culture that had impregnated her spirit(nafs) so she lagged behind.

On what basis you are interpreting son as "new idea/thought"? Do u have any Quranic support behind that? I believe it's your mere conjecture.

Sura AL-E-IMRAN

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.(003.007)

jonny_k

Salam,
I believe tht the unnamed teacher was an angel who appeared as a man on earth 2 Moses n as we all know tht angels can take the life of a human with GOD's permission at the appointed time so theres absolutely no prob here. We also know from Quran tht everyone's lifespan is already fixed by GOD. Idolfree's argument tht the boy was innocent n therefore 2 take his life wld be wrong is absurd since GOD takes the life of millions of young children everyday n He Alone knows the reasons. Wht appears wrong 2 us is not necessary wrong. Tht young boy was probably a teenager who cozed a lof trouble n wld continue 2 coz greater 2 his parents in the future so GOD knowing this commanded one of His angels 2 take his life. GOD Bless!

asifwadud

peace everyone,
idolfree1 said

For now, just deal with the question of "Does the God order wickedness?"

Never.

See the problem is the "person" did something that seemed to be wicked. That "person" was given "special" knowledge by God. The relative of mine I am talking about said here "special knowledge" means "spiritual knowledge", and so that person was none other than a saint. And so even if a saint does something that looks like a "crime", his actions should not be questioned. First of all how are we gonna know who is a saint or not? And even if someone happens to be a saint does it allow him to do(the problem is that they say whatever he is doing is ordered by God) things without any question?

He would not answer how to identify a saint, but keeps telling me a saint should be allowed to do everything(whatever it be) and we should not question his actions.

I need to know more comprehensive interpretation of this story related to Musa.

TheNabi

Salaam Kyle,

Very interesting dude.

Joe

unknownuser

Salaam asif,

I hope this helps.

Using lanes and or qd.

1874
Then they both proceeded till when they met a boy then he cursed/(admonished) him/person said (Moses) have you admonished/cursed/(hurt) an innocent without feeling verily you have brought a thing evil.

1880
And as for the boy were his parent?s believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
1881
So we intended that should change for them their lord (to) good/agreeable (in) relation/likeness (to) him in righteousness and nearer to mercy.

The main word here is Qatal which is used here as to kill, but is not used for that in a number of other places in the quran

Two such places are

254-256, and 854 but the second is more obvious.=cursed

The main other word

NAFSUN = soul/spirit/mind/person/feeling. e.t.c

AND by the way

Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanikalitubashshira bihi almuttaqeena watunthira bihi qawmanluddan

So have We made the (Qur'an) easy in thine own tongue, that with it thou mayest give Glad Tidings to the righteous, and warnings to people given to contention.
2.

Fa-innama yassarnahu bilisanikalaAAallahum yatathakkaroona

Verily, We have made this (Qur'an) easy, in thy tongue, in order that they may give heed.

The quran is easy, and in the Arabic tongue so one doesn?t need to imagine things ?we just need to analyse and understand the lingo.

I think.

God Bless.

yfn123

Greetings with peace,

These are just frauds... just trying to take advantage of people's faith.

Anwar Azim

peace everyone,
He would not answer how to identify a saint, but keeps telling me a saint should be allowed to do everything(whatever it be) and we should not question his actions.

zenje

Please note, Moses had no doubts about who the person was, just his actions.

Peace.

asifwadud

mz357 said

The main word here is Qatal which is used here as to kill, but is not used for that in a number of other places in the quran

I believe the meaning of a word depends on the context. It is possible that a word will have different meanings depending on the context. ONLY when the meaning is not clear in a particular instance we look at other examples to get the meaning. I don't think it is wise to use the meaning of the same word in other verses to get the meaning of this verse which seems to be quite apparent that it means to "kill". If you still think it did not mean "kill" what do you think God would/should have used if He wanted to mean "Qatal" as "kill" and not as "curse"?

unknownuser

Salaams Asif,

Yes i think you have to look at this verse according to its context to understand which meaning of Qatal you should/shouldn't use.

So is killing an inocent person allowed anywhere in the quran???

emphatic "NO"

So most appropriate would have to be another meaning then kill?

and as Nafs can/does mean feelings or even avaricious ways then i would think that is what its about , the finishing/removing such an attitude from the young boy so he was more righteous then before.

But unless you look at the meaning of each of the words in the ayat you won't grasp that .Be wise and look at the whole verse ,all the words - to understand.

And this ayah following is another example where the translater has mishandled the translations.

And Moses said to his people ?O my people, you have wronged your souls by taking the calf, so repent to your Maker, and kill yourselves. That is better for you with your Maker, so He would forgive you. He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.?
And you said ?O Moses, we will not believe you until we see God openly!? So the lightning bolt took you while you were still staring.
Then We resurrected you after your death that you may be appreciative.

Hard to believe even free-minders are/can sometimes be nuts! - i thinks.

Salaams.

marie

Salam,

killing in contrast with saving a life

On that account, We decreed to the Children of Israel the Eternal Moral Ordinance for all humanity (217 that whoever kills a human being, unless it is in the course of justice for murder or bloody crimes on the earth, it shall be as if he killed all mankind. And whoever saves one life it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. Our Messengers came to people with clear Truth, yet many of them continued to transgress in the earth.

Min ajli thalika katabna AAalabanee isra-eela annahu man qatala nafsan bighayri nafsin aw fasadin fee al-ardi fakaannama qatala alnnasajameeAAan waman ahyaha fakaannama ahyaalnnasa jameeAAan walaqad jaat-hum rusulunabialbayyinati thumma inna katheeran minhum baAAda thalikafee al-ardi lamusrifoona

nafsan bighayri/without nafsin

1874 So they went on till, when they met a lad, he slew him. Moses said, "What! Have you slain an innocent person who had slain none/without justice? Verily, you have done a horrible thing."
Faintalaqa hattaitha laqiya ghulaman faqatalahu qalaaqatalta nafsan zakiyyatan bighayri nafsin laqad ji/ta shay-annukran

alnnafsa bialnnafsi---->life for a life

And We have decreed for them in it that a life for a life, and an eye for an eye, and a nose for a nose, and an ear for an ear, and a tooth for a tooth, and wounds to be similar; and whoever remits anything of it, then it will cancel sins for him. And whoever does not judge by what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
Wakatabna AAalayhim feeha anna alnnafsa bialnnafsi waalAAayna bialAAayniwaal-anfa bial-anfi waalothuna bialothuniwaalssinna bialssinni waaljurooha qisasunfaman tasaddaqa bihi fahuwa kaffaratun lahu wamanlam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faola-ikahumu alththalimoona

1881.So we wanted their Lord to replace for them with one who is better than him in purity and closer to mercy.?
Faaradna an yubdilahuma rabbuhuma khayran minhu zakatan waaqraba ruhman

khayran minhu is used to compare two similar things. One says X1 is better than X2 like in 973 and 4911.

The Night of Destiny is better than one thousand sahr.
Laylatu alqadri khayrun min alfi shahrin
O you who believe, let not a people ridicule other people, for they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock one another, or call each other names. Evil indeed is the reversion to wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does not repent, then these are the transgressors.
Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoola yaskhar qawmun min qawmin AAasa an yakoonoo khayran minhum wala nisaon min nisa-in AAasaan yakunna khayran minhunna wala talmizoo anfusakum walatanabazoo bial-alqabi bi/sa al-ismualfusooqu baAAda al-eemani waman lam yatub faola-ikahumu alththalimoona

ayman

Peace Asif,

There is a story in this Sura about Musa meeting a person(known as Al-Khidr) and there are descriptions of three incidents taking place with him. What is there to learn from this Musa's encounter with this knowledgeable person. If someone knows please explain, this is important.

I agree with you that it is important to properly understand this sign without bias from the traditional account, which is based on the mythology of Khidr (the green one).

Let's look closely in various translations at the explanation given by The God's servant.

018.079
YUSUFALI "As for the boat, it belonged to certain men in dire want they plied on the water I but wished to render it unserviceable, for there was after them a certain king who seized on every boat by force.
PICKTHAL As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force.
SHAKIR As for the boat, it belonged to (some) poor men who worked on the river and I wished that I should damage it, and there was behind them a king who seized every boat by force.

018.080
YUSUFALI "As for the youth, his parents were people of Faith, and we feared that he would grieve them by obstinate rebellion and ingratitude (to Allah and man).
PICKTHAL And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.
SHAKIR And as for the boy, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should make disobedience and ingratitude to come upon them

018.081
YUSUFALI "So we desired that their Lord would give them in exchange (a son) better in purity (of conduct) and closer in affection.
PICKTHAL And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy.
SHAKIR So we desired that their Lord might give them in his place one better than him in purity and nearer to having compassion.

018.082
YUSUFALI "As for the wall, it belonged to two youths, orphans, in the Town; there was, beneath it, a buried treasure, to which they were entitled their father had been a righteous man So thy Lord desired that they should attain their age of full strength and get out their treasure - a mercy (and favour) from thy Lord. I did it not of my own accord. Such is the interpretation of (those things) over which thou wast unable to hold patience."
PICKTHAL And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear.
SHAKIR And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father was a righteous man; so your Lord desired that they should attain their maturity and take out their treasure, a mercy from your Lord, and I did not do it of my own accord. This is the significance of that with which you could not have patience.

Ask your relative those questions and have him ask it to his Saints and see if they can answer

Where does The God say in 1865-82 that Moses was wrong to question the actions of The God's servant?

Where does it say that The God ordered the servant to kill the youth?

Why the change from the first person "I" in 1879 to the "we" in 1880-81 and then to "the Lord" in 1882?

People claim that the servant killed the youth based on orders from The God and hence He participated in the action described in 1880-81. Does The God fear anything?

Here is what is clear even from the above translations

The servant on his own decided to damage the boat. He did what any intelligent person could have done to prevent the unjust king from taking it.
The servant killed the youth based on others FEARING that in the future the youth would do bad things. Where else do we hear that in the future people would do bad things?

002.030
YUSUFALI Behold, thy Lord said to the angels "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said "I know what ye know not."
PICKTHAL And when thy Lord said unto the angels Lo! I am about to place a viceroy in the earth, they said Wilt thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said Surely I know that which ye know not.
SHAKIR And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said Surely I know what you do not know.

What was The God's answer? He said Surely I know what you do not know.

Despite the "malaika" knowing the future, The God made the human the leader of the earth. Hence, Moses was right and The God's servant was wrong even though he knew the future.

As for the action of fixing the wall, this was the ONLY action not out of The God's servant own accord but was based on what The God desired. You can see this in the fact that the majority of translators (except Yusuf Ali) didn't start a new sentence between "and I did not do it of my own accord" and the explanation about the building of the wall.

I hope this helps.

Peace and all best wishes,

Ayman