A GREAT CONTRADICTION
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PEACE, TO ALL,
The following I posted on another forum, but a comment made to me by Shuaib, gave me the idea that it might be a good idea to post it here as well. The old members here will find nothing new in it but it nay be help to newcomer.
The vast majority of those who identify themselves Muslims, follow the corrupted bodies of work--the sunnah and hadiths of Bukhari et al, along with Allah's Book of Guidance/Al-Quran, for their guidance.
Allah says 698...here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure We detail Our Ayats for people who understand.
This present life, then, is a fleeting test and there are only two destinies awaiting mankind...Hell and Paradise.
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks
53...This day have I perfected for you your Deen and completed My favor on you and chosen for you Al-Islam as your Deen..
Main Entry PERFECTED being entirely without fault or defect flawless satisfying all requirements
Main Entry COMPLETE having all necessary parts, elements, or steps.
Main Entry NECESSARY an indispensable item logically unavoidable that cannot be denied without contradiction
Main Entry DETAIL to report minutely and distinctly specify marked by abundant thoroughness in treating small items or parts.
GUIDANCE/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...that you should exalt the greatness of Allah for His having guided you and that you may give thanks.
187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the worship of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.
With all of this said, what details then, pertinent to living a righteous life, hence, being able to successfully pass the test of conduct, are not to be found in Al-Quran, necessitating, seeking them out in extra-Quranic tainted bodies of work i.e sunnah and or hadith?
With this in mind then, how is the following contradicton reconciled
Allah claims that His Quran IS fully detailed/complete.
6114 Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
111 A. L. R. (This is) a Book, with ayats basic or fundamental (of established meaning), further explained in detail,- from One Who is Wise and Well-acquainted (with all things)
1689 One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people) and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
1712 And We have made the night and the day two signs, then We have made the sign of the night to pass away and We have made the sign of the day manifest, so that you may seek grace from your Lord, and that you might know the numbering of years and the reckoning all things have We explained in detail.
1854 And certainly We have explained in this Quran every kind of example, and man is most of all given to contention.
413 A Book, whereof the ayats are explained in detail;- a Qur'an in Arabic, for people who understand
456 These are the Ayats of Allah, which We rehearse to you in Truth; then in what HADITH will they believe after Allah and His AYATS?
Main Entry AYAT evidence proof.
Main Entry CLEAR free from obscurity or ambiguity easily understood unmistakable capable of sharp discernment free from doubt.
Main EntryBANA explain explanation clear meaning explaining clearly clear proof precise testimony clear beyond doubt obvious easily understood
Main Entry FASALA/FULLY DETAILED expatiate in to detail distinct narrating a thing with all its particulars distinguishing decisive detailed clearly explained.
Main Entry HADA to guide show with kindnes the right path lead to the right path follow right path until one reaches the goal.
Main Entry MATHALA an example case to resemble eqivalent imitate compare anyone with be or look like someone bear a likeness similar discourse lesson.
Given the definitions of bana, fassalna and mathala, where in Al-Quran can one find a clear example/details for the so-called ritual prayer,; where can we find its equivalent in Allah's perfect/complete Book of Guidance--Al-Quran?
The vast majority of those who identify themselves as Muslims, claim that
Allah's Quran is NOT fully detailed/complete, that is, it is not sufficient/enough for one's guidance.
Hence, the need to find details i.e. the details for the so-called ritual prayer, in secondary sources of "guidance" i.e. the sunnah and the hadiths.
Free Minds member, Shuaib, writes
"Remember, the Quran does NOT have all the details within it. There are many items that are detailed, but many that are left open ended for the Muslim ummah to decide upon with the changing needs of their times. That is why it is wrong to take the meaning detailed. It's better to take the meanings clarified or distinct".
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3650&start=25
HARUN YAHYA, writes
"However, we can understand how exactly we should perform prayers only by looking at sunnah. Because there is no detailed information in the verses about the way of praying, what to say in prayer, the way of man and woman's performing the prayer, the degree of importance of the prayers, the details of ablution, what nullifies ablution. We can learn such details only by looking at Sunnah of the prophet.
As another example, we can mention the suggestions of the prophet about Friday and the things He said about Friday prayer. Beside the subjects such as speaking that which is best, cleanness, foods, modesty, there are verses in the Qur'an about obligations such as fasting, ablution and hajj (pilgrimage). However, there is no detailed information about those worships in the verses. We learn the detail information about how to perform these worships from the interpretations of the scholars about the words and habits of the prophet.
http//64.233.161.104/search?q=caches9KEC0X6Y5YJwww.harunyahya.com/31sunnah.html+is+the+Quran+fully+detailed&hl=en
Dr. Khalid Alvi writes
Any student of the Qur'an will see that the Holy Book generally deals with the broad principles or essentials of religion, going into details in very rare cases. The details were generously supplied by the Prophet himself, either by showing in his practice how an injunction shall be carried out, or by giving an explanation in words. The Sunnah or Hadith of the Holy Prophet was not, as is generally supposed, a thing of which the need may have been felt only after his death, for it was very much needed in his lifetime. The two most important religious institutions of Islam are prayer and zakat; yet when the injunction relating to prayer and zakat were delivered, and they were repeatedly revealed in both Mecca and Madina, no details were supplied. Keep up prayers (aqimoo as-salaah the Qur'anic injunction and it was the Prophet himself who by his own actions gave details of the prayer and said (Salloo kamaa ra'aytamoonee usaallee) "Pray as you see me praying."
http//64.233.161.104/search?q=cache9uG3YS4ljsMJwww.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/sunnah/indispensability_of_hadith.htm+do+the+Sunnah+and+Hadith+give+details&hl=en
Amin Ahsan Islahi, writes
"The religion with which we have been blessed by Almighty Allah through the Qur?an only lays down broadly the fundamentals for life. It does not embrace all the details of expositions thereof. Comprehensive education of the Ummah in the matter of details has been left entirely to the Mu
allim-i-Qur?an, the Prophet (sws) himself. The overall structure of Islam has been raised and completed through the Sunnah of the Prophet (sws). For instance, basic commandments with regarding prayers, fasts, pilgrimage, zakat and other obligations and rites have, no doubt, been laid down in the Holy Qur?an. However, there are no details mentioned on any of these subjects; so much so that the Qur?an does not even mention the details of such an extremely important matter as prayers, for example their timings, total number, and the number of rakats in each prayer...http//www.muslimreviewer.com/ahadith.htm
By claiming that the Prophet gave details pertinent to the guidance of mankind, and, at the same time, claim that Allah didn't provide the details pertinent to mankind's guidance in Al-Quran, although He declares that He did, is to call Allah a liar, as well as, make Muhammad a partner with Allah in the guidance of mankind. Allah says Al-Quran is fassalna and hada , and the right path instructs one how to live a righteous life in this world, thus, avoiding Hell and gaining the Supreme Achievement--Paradise, in the coming world.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. Whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
Now, either Allah is correct that, His Quran IS fully detailed, and the vast majority of those who identify themselves as Muslims are wrong, or, the vast majority of so-called Muslims, are correct that, Allah's Quran is NOT fully detailed and Allah is wrong, however, both parties cannot be...right. Which party is right?
- Do you agree or disagree that, relative to/specific to the above M-W definitions, and the definition of GUIDANCE, as corroborated by the above four ayats that, Al-Quran is fully detailed?
In other words
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Did Allah, leave out any detail from Al-Quran, which could result in an individual going astray and thus going to HELL?
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If you answer "agree" to question #1. and answer "no" to question #2, what Quranic term then means...."fully detailed"?
If Allah is to be believed, and it is to our benefit in the world to come that we do, then we need to take what He says with absolute seriousness. Given that Allah cannot lie or make a mistake, it simply stands to reason that why there aren't any details for a so-called ritual prayer in Al-Quran, must mean the word solaa doesn't mean ritual prayer at all and, whatever it does mean, it is definitely fully detailed in his Quran. Nothing else, given the facts, makes any sense.
This contradiction is extremely important to resolve, because it determines if one will maintain the Tauhid Allah or practice shirk .
3543 On account of their arrogance in the land and their plotting of Evil, but the plotting of Evil will hem in only the authors thereof. Now are they but looking for the way the ancients were dealt with? But no change wilt thou find in Allah's way (of dealing) no turning off wilt thou find in Allah's way.
- Istikbaran fee al-ardi wamakra alssayyi-i wala yaheequ almakru alssayyi-o illa bi-ahlihi fahal yanthuroona illa sunnata al-awwaleena falan tajida lisunnati Allahi tabdeelan walan tajida lisunnati Allahi tahweelan.
The Straight Path/Sunnah of Allah, states that Allah's Book of Guidance--Al-Quran, IS fully detailed. The Sunnah of the Ancients state, Allah's Allah's Book of Guidance--Al-Quran, IS NOT fully detailed.
5104 When it is said to them "Come to what Allah hath revealed; come to the Messenger. They say "Enough for us are the ways we found our fathers following." what! even though their fathers were void of knowledge and guidance?
Looking forward to your responses.
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salams PB
unfortunately, for some odd reason, you are being rather stubborn about pushing upon everyone the FALSE translation of fasala mufassala etc as DETAILED. It is NOT detail, and you in your own words prove the very point by stating that things such as prayer are not detailed. While punishment for zina is mentioned, punishment for MANY other crimes are not detailed.
The "great contradiction" or "great confusion" is 2-fold. On the one hand you have the traditionalists who feel that these unmentioned details are essentials of Islam and hence they have created another "book of Allah" called hadith. This is obviously a blatant crime.
On the other hand you have people who say, well Allah didn't mention those details so let's just ignore this fact entirely and pretend all the details are there! This is also wrong, and this group seems to gravitate toward metaphorical and philosophical interpretations.
The point is quite simple. The Quran is the constitution for humankind... the rules for how to set up our society. Now human society is not a static entity. It has gone from a group of hunter/gatherers to feudal communities to states and modern countries and who knows where the ages will take us. It is the wisdom of Allah that he detailed specifics for certain things but left details for other things unmentioned, SO THAT Muslims (through democratic methods) could determine what should be implemented in their particular time-frames (4238 ). However, those things that Allah deemed unchangeable throughout time, he detailed them in the Quran. Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
Saying that the Quran is not detailed is no attack on the Quran, rather it is a praise... the reason the other religions are dead is because they have fixed all the details of laws and now they CANT change according to the needs of the times. The fact that a number of things are left open-ended gives us immense freedom to set up our society according to the needs!
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This present life is a fleeting test and there are only two destinies awaiting mankind...Hell and Paradise.
Hello Priest Bokmei,
Greetings.
Real Priest at last -)
Why is there are only two destinations?
Why not a third?Regards,
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
This present life is a fleeting test and there are only two destinies awaiting mankind...Hell and Paradise.
Hello Priest Bokmei,
Greetings.
Real Priest at last -)
Why is there are only two destinations?
Why not a third?Regards,
Does Al-Quran mention a third? If so, please post the ayat so that I may correct my position.
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PEACE, LOTE TREE,
This present life is a fleeting test and there are only two destinies awaiting mankind...Hell and Paradise.
Hello Priest Bokmei,
Greetings.
Real Priest at last -)
Why is there are only two destinations?
Why not a third?Regards,
Does Al-Quran mention a third? If so, please post the ayat so that I may correct my position.
It was more of a philosophical question -)
And I thought you being a priest, may have made you ponder on this very question...What if you desire neither?Regards,
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Peace be upon you,
That which is FULLY DETAILED is "Al Kitaab" or the universe itself. This reading(quran) is a guide to "Al Kitaab".
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PEACE, IDOL,
Peace be upon you,
That which is FULLY DETAILED is "Al Kitaab" or the universe itself. This reading(quran) is a guide to "Al Kitaab".
I beg to differ. The return of man is not to the Universe, but to Allah and one of two destinies...Hell or Paradise. Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
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PEACE, LOTE,
It was more of a philosophical question -)
And I thought you being a priest, may have made you ponder on this very question...What if you desire neither?LOL! No, I am not a priest. It is simply a nickname. I am a Muslim and I follow Allah and His Quran...only and alone.
Peace.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
unfortunately, for some odd reason, you are being rather stubborn about pushing upon everyone the FALSE translation of fasala mufassala etc as DETAILED
.LOL! Well, I have to give you this one! I don't like to look at myself as being stubborn but as persistent.
What, then, according to you and your sources , is the definition of fasala, and the relationship between it and the following definition of guidance
Guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
It is NOT detail, and you in your own words prove the very point by stating that things such as prayer are not detailed.
I think you will agree with me when I say that, the so-called ritual prayer, is obligatory/fard, yes? Allah, per ayat 53 says "...This day have I perfected your deen for you.." Further, Allah, defines His Book of Gudiance as being free of discrepancy . With all of this in mind then, why would Allah scatter the details for an "obligatory act of worship", through out bodies of work i.e. the sunnah and the hadiths, which are proven to be corrupted, that is, having
discrepancies/contradictions? That would make absolutely no sense at all, hence, the only ogical concusion one can arrive at is...there are no details for a ritual prayer, because there is no ritual prayer to be performed as aprt of Allah's Deen.On the one hand you have the traditionalists who feel that these unmentioned details are essentials of Islam and hence they have created another "book of Allah" called hadith. This is obviously a blatant crime.
Agreed.
On the other hand you have people who say, well Allah didn't mention those details so let's just ignore this fact entirely and pretend all the details are there! This is also wrong, and this group seems to gravitate toward metaphorical and philosophical interpretations.
It may not be so much a metaphorical and philosophical issue, as it is an issue of such poor translations. Pper ayat 2185, Allah says
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...
Guidance the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
Now, let me ask you this, given the above ayat, what possible details could Allah have left out, pertinent to the above definition for guidance? Remember, Hell, is the consequence for us not practicing this Deen properly, hence, why would Allah not detail everything pertinent to us avoiding Hell, in His Book of Guidance--Al-Quran? Your position that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, relative to mankind's guidance, simply makes no sense. Consider this, Al-Quran, as with the Creation, is from Allah. To say then that Al-Quran is not fully detailed, would be akin saying the Creation is not fully detailed. Or, do you think Allah left some detail out of His Creation when He created it?
That Allah detailed the punsihment for zina , but left it open for mankind to decide the punishment fo other acts of fahusha/indecencies, does not mean that Al-Quran is lacking in details. The particular fahusha, zina, per ayat 1732 "... is road to many other evils", hence, Allah, detailed its punishment, because that is how He wants it to be dealt with. What is the problem?
It is the wisdom of Allah that he detailed specifics for certain things but left details for other things unmentioned, SO THAT Muslims (through democratic methods) could determine what should be implemented in their particular time-frames (4238 ). However, those things that Allah deemed unchangeable throughout time, he detailed them in the Quran. Thus, the Quran IS complete, despite leaving out "details."
Well, you make my point , in that, what is pertinent to living a righteous life thus avoiding Hell, is thoroughly detailed in Al-Quran. Let me ask you a question, in that, Allah, didn't give us the details on how to build a house, paint a building, sport glide or build a car engine, do we the say...well, Allah's Quran is not fully detailed?
Saying that the Quran is not detailed is no attack on the Quran, rather it is a praise... the reason the other religions are dead is because they have fixed all the details of laws and now they CANT change according to the needs of the times. The fact that a number of things are left open-ended gives us immense freedom to set up our society according to the needs!
While it may not be an attack on Al-Quran, however, for one to say that it is not fully detailed , would be a naive and inaccurate assertion. Btw, Al-Islam is not religion, but Deen. The practice of the Sunnis, Shias, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Hindus etc., are religions .
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salams PB
about the definition of fasala, like i mentioned before, I confirmed the meanings in lughaat-ul-quraan (not widely available) as well as lisaan-ul-arab. Fasala does not mean detailed.
I think you are not understanding a key point of mine. The Quran is full of guiding principles, and BASED on those principles it is up to US (yes, us lowly Muslims) to actually take matters into our own hands/minds and make practical LAWS based on those Quranic principles.
SOME laws however, Allah decided that He would make it set and therefore unchangeable throughout time, e.g. punishment for zina, etc. But MANY other laws were not detailed... but GUIDING principles were ALL applied.
The traditionalists have brainwashed everyone (perhaps including you) that all human beings are inherently incapable and stupid and evil, and cannot be trusted to (GOD FORBID!) make LAWS for themselves based on guiding principles!!
As far as ritual prayer, that is always a big stumbling block because of the emotional attachments to the ritual itself. The form is arbitrary, the guiding principles are in the Quran and HOWEVER the Muslim ummah decides to go about it is fine.. it is not set in stone and can thus change throughout time according to the needs of the people.
hope this helps you understand at least where i am coming from.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
about the definition of fasala, like i mentioned before, I confirmed the meanings in lughaat-ul-quraan (not widely available) as well as lisaan-ul-arab. Fasala does not mean detailed.
O.k., well, does Allah use any word for detail in Al-Quran? If so, what is it? How, then, is Allah using fasala, to mean precisely what?
I think you are not understanding a key point of mine. The Quran is full of guiding principles, and BASED on those principles it is up to US (yes, us lowly Muslims) to actually take matters into our own hands/minds and make practical LAWS based on those Quranic principles. SOME laws however, Allah decided that He would make it set and therefore unchangeable throughout time, e.g. punishment for zina, etc. But MANY other laws were not detailed... but GUIDING principles were ALL applied.
The traditionalists have brainwashed everyone (perhaps including you) that all human beings are inherently incapable and stupid and evil, and cannot be trusted to (GOD FORBID!) make LAWS for themselves based on guiding principles!!
These guiding principles, what is the purpose/objective of them, to do what? Do you disagree that, mankind faces only two destinies...Hell and Paradise? If you do not disagree, then, what, relative to the guiding principles of Al-Quran, are not fully detailed in Al-Quran?
As far as ritual prayer, that is always a big stumbling block because of the emotional attachments to the ritual itself. The form is arbitrary, the guiding principles are in the Quran and HOWEVER the Muslim ummah decides to go about it is fine.. it is not set in stone and can thus change throughout time according to the needs of the people.
Really?, do you think the Muslim ummah would accept your position, and, how could you prove it to them? Also, what ayat can you bring forth to corroborate your assertion that, the so-called ritual salat is arbitrary and can be performed as one wishes. You cannot just state something like that and not have Allah back it up. Remember now, salat, is the so-called second Pillar and is an obligatory rite/practice, in view of the so-called Muslims.
You still haven't answered the following. What in the following, regarding guidance, isn't fully detailed in Al-Quran?
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain (among you), and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.
Looking forward to your reply.
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salam pb,
man you are tiring me out bro!
O.k., well, does Allah use any word for detail in Al-Quran? If so, what is it? How, then, is Allah using fasala, to mean precisely what?
Should I be the one asking you this? Where's your research? I will look into that when i have the time but i do not know off the top of my head.
These guiding principles, what is the purpose/objective of them, to do what? Do you disagree that, mankind faces only two destinies...Hell and Paradise? If you do not disagree, then, what, relative to the guiding principles of Al-Quran, are not fully detailed in Al-Quran?
Have we started going in circles yet? Bro... what is so hard to understand... some details are there, some are not. But ALL the guidiing principles are there... like drinking is bad. Now at one time, drinking may be a lesser crime and given a fine.. another time it may be at the root of several evils and people may be jailed/lashed... Muslims will decide based on the needs of the society at that time.
you sound like you just want to be led around on a leash being told exactly what to do and what not to do... is that it??
Really?, do you think the Muslim ummah would accept your position, and, how could you prove it to them?
The answer to the first part is obvious. The second part, the proof is in the fact that it is not detailed in the Quran. Plain and simple.
You still haven't answered the following. What in the following, regarding guidance, isn't fully detailed in Al-Quran?
I think you need to slow down and try and understand what I am saying, because we're going in circles here and its driving me nuts.
From all that i have described to you, it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete... the guidance is that sometimes you have to step up to the plate yourself and GOD FORBID, make decisions and laws YOURSELF! (Traditionalists say NONO, don't make decisions, let the SUNNAH do it... and you are saying NONO, dont make decisions, let the Quran do it (even though some details ARENT there! )).
Muslims have been brainwashed that making decisions is unforgivable. . Apparently you have fallen pray to this too because you just aren't getting what i am saying. The Quran is complete, ALL the necessary guidance is there and even some of the laws are detailed... EVERYTHING WE NEED TO SUCCEED IS THERE! But that means WE are going to have to have some input too... and YES, that means that if we aren't up to par in knowledge and imaan and everything, we will make wrong laws and FAIL. And it serves us right! But if we are excellent in knowledge and imaan etc, then we will meet the challenge and succeed in this world and the next.
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
man you are tiring me out bro!
Gotta start working out more, dude!
PRIEST O.k., well, does Allah use any word for detail in Al-Quran? If so, what is it? How, then, is Allah using fasala, to mean precisely what?
Should I be the one asking you this? Where's your research? I will look into that when i have the time but i do not know off the top of my head.
Allah, has given is the term...fasala, however, you don't want to accept His Ayat.
These guiding principles, what is the purpose/objective of them, to do what? Do you disagree that, mankind faces only two destinies...Hell and Paradise? If you do not disagree, then, what, relative to the guiding principles of Al-Quran, are not fully detailed in Al-Quran?
Have we started going in circles yet? Bro... what is so hard to understand... some details are there, some are not.
Your above statement contradicts both Allah and your following statemant
But ALL the guidiing principles are there...
Don't you see the discrepancy in your positions?
you sound like you just want to be led around on a leash being told exactly what to do and what not to do... is that it??
When it comes to avoiding Hell...don't you?, because that is what is at stake here. Man, only has two destinies to look forward to...Hell and Paradise. Do you wish to avoid Hell? If so, don't you want to make absolutely certain that what you are doing and saying in Allah's name, is, in fact, what He's told you to do and say? Otherwise, we assign lies and partners to Allah and mislead ourselves and others, and what must the end of that be?
Really?, do you think the Muslim ummah would accept your position, and, how could you prove it to them?
The answer to the first part is obvious. The second part, the proof is in the fact that it is not detailed in the Quran. Plain and simple.
Then if it is not in Al-Quran, what does that tell you? Why would Allah leave out important details relative to His Guidance?? That makes no sense at all. For Him to do that would constitute a lapse of judgement.
You still haven't answered the following. What in the following, regarding guidance, isn't fully detailed in Al-Quran?
I think you need to slow down and try and understand what I am saying, because we're going in circles here and its driving me nuts. From all that i have described to you, it should be obvious that the guidance IS complete... the guidance is that sometimes you have to step up to the plate yourself and GOD FORBID, make decisions and laws YOURSELF! (Traditionalists say NONO, don't make decisions, let the SUNNAH do it... and you are saying NONO, dont make decisions, let the Quran do it (even though some details ARENT there! )).
On the contrary, I understand you perfectly. You want it both ways. On one the one hand you want to affirm that Al-Quran, just as Allah has said it is, is fully detailed/complete. On the other hand other hand, you want to justify using other flawed bodies of work for your guidance, in order to rationalize what you are practicing in the name of Allah, because you cannot find the details for what you are doing in His name in Al-Quran! Your situation is quite clear, Shuaib. You are in contradiction to Allah and yourself...just as I was once.
Hence, my question remains. What, relative to the following, is not fully detailed in Allah's Quran
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
2185 The month of Ramazan is that in which the Quran was revealed, a guidance to men and clear proofs of the guidance and the criterion...to glorify Him in that He has guided you; and perchance ye shall be grateful.
187 That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
18110 Say "I am but a man like yourselves, (but) the inspiration has come to me, that your Allah is one Allah. whoever expects to meet his Lord, let him work righteousness, and, in the service of his Lord, admit no one as partner.
649 The Day that He assembles you (all) for a Day of Assembly,- that will be a Day of mutual loss and gain (among you), and those who believe in Allah and work righteousness,- He will remove from them their ills, and He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein for ever that will be the Supreme Achievement.
Don't go nuts. D
Looking forward to your reply.
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salam pb,
i think we're reaching a dead-end here unfortunately.
Allah, has given is the term...fasala, however, you don't want to accept His Ayat.
actually no, YOU gave us the term detailed.. not Allah.
i proved that fasala does not mean detailed. go research this, you dont have to believe me. learn arabic and then research it, if you want to get into deep arabic discussions.
Your above statement contradicts both Allah and your following statemant
Quote
But ALL the guidiing principles are there...
Have we started going in circles yet? Bro... what is so hard to understand... some details are there, some are not.
Don't you see the discrepancy in your positions?
you are not reading carefully. read it again. principles and details, like i have posted about 10 times today in 2 forums, are not the same thing. read it again.
When it comes to avoiding Hell...don't you?,
that's the exact argument traditionalists use to scare people into becoming dogs on leashes... will you resort to the same tactics now?
Why would Allah leave out important details relative to His Guidance??
Did you actually READ any of my posts? I must have said it 10 times today! so that those laws could change based on the needs of the times!
i dont know if we're going to agree on this.. but at least understand what i am saying! i NEVER justified hadith or ANY other outside sources... BUT, i am saying that Muslims themselves ARE responsible and WILL need to have input in this system... what you are saying is that you're quite simply scared of having that kind of responsibility, and that is the EXACT same thing that traditionalists feel! THAT is the reason they cannot let go of sunnah! Fear!
We are not meant to be dogs lead around by a leash, simply following orders blindly. There is no beauty of fulfillment or achievement in that!
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PEACE, SHUAIB,
actually no, YOU gave us the term detailed.. not Allah.
6126 This is the way of thy Lord, leading straight We have detailed the Ayats for those who receive admonition.
6126 Wahatha siratu rabbika mustaqeeman qad fassalna alayati liqawmin yaththakkaroona
752 For We had certainly sent unto them a Book, based on knowledge, which We explained in detail,- a guide and a mercy to all who believe.
752 Walaqad jinahum bikitabin fassalnahu AAala AAilmin hudan warahmatan liqawmin yuminoona
Now, is it your position that, fassalna, does not mean fully detailed? If so, then, what is Allah stating in the above ayats?
i proved that fasala does not mean detailed. go research this, you dont have to believe me. learn arabic and then research it, if you want to get into deep arabic discussions.
I'm sorry, Shuaib, but just how did you prove what cannot possibly be proved? The following comment by you, does not constitute proof;
lughaat-ul-quraan (not widely available) as well as lisaan-ul-arab. Fasala does not mean detailed.
You quote an obscure arcane dictionary and then say it is proof...I don't think so. Could you scan the entire definition of fasala so we can all take a look at it?
Your above statement contradicts both Allah and your following statemant
Quote
But ALL the guidiing principles are there...
Have we started going in circles yet? Bro... what is so hard to understand... some details are there, some are not.
Don't you see the discrepancy in your positions?
you are not reading carefully. read it again. principles and details, like i have posted about 10 times today in 2 forums, are not the same thing. read it again.
Guidance/Al-Quran the instructions on how to live a righteous life in this world (especially, not to do shirk) , so that, one may successfuly pass the test of conduct , so that, one may avoid the destiny of Hell and gain the destiny of Paradise .
O.k., fine. What principles then, regarding the above definition of guidance, are not fassalnahu/fully detailed in Al-Quran? That's all I want to know.
When it comes to avoiding Hell...don't you?,
that's the exact argument traditionalists use to scare people into becoming dogs on leashes... will you resort to the same tactics now?
I'm not resorting to scare tactics, however, is Hell not real? And hasn't Allah promised it to those who reject His Guidance? Somethings in life we are supposed to be afraid of. Here, check this out
ON HELL
280 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that you say of Allah what ye do not know?"
324 This because they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" For their forgeries deceive them as to their own deen.
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Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is Allah's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;
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They will abide therein Their penalty will not be lightened, nor will respite be their (lot).
And those who followed shall say Had there been for us a return, then we would renounce them as they have renounced us. Thus will Allah show them their deeds to be intense regret to them, and they shall not come forth from the fire.
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Their wish will be to get out of the Fire, but never will they get out therefrom their penalty will be one that endures.
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It will also be said "This Day We will forget you as ye forgot the meeting of this Day of yours! and your abode is the Fire, and no helpers have ye!
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"This, because ye used to take the Ayats of Allah in jest, and the life of the world deceived you" (From) that Day, therefore, they shall not be taken out thence, nor shall they be received into Grace.
4;56 (As for) those who disbelieve in Our ayats, We shall make them ENTER the fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
FIRE IS SO TERRIFYING THAT...
NEW YORK CITY 9/11/01 (AP)-In New York, some of the occupants of each tower above its point of impact made their way upward towards the roof in hope of helicopter rescue. Because of the smoke, no such rescue could safely be attempted. A number of people jumped from the burning building to the streets and roofs below.
PARIS 4/15/05 (AP) - People screamed for help and jumped from windows early Friday as fire and smoke swept through a hotel...
CAN ONE BE SAVED ON ONE'S DEATH BED?
- Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy For Allah is full of knowledge and wisdom.
4 18. Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented indeed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Man, Hell, is definitely something to fully fear and avoid at all costs...yes?
Why would Allah leave out important details relative to His Guidance??
Did you actually READ any of my posts? I must have said it 10 times today! so that those laws could change based on the needs of the times!
So, Allah's Laws change over time, is this really your position? Allah's Quran is for all times, all people, and in all places. How can man change Allah's Laws? And if he could, then, there would be contradictions in Allah's Deen.
i dont know if we're going to agree on this.. but at least understand what i am saying! i NEVER justified hadith or ANY other outside sources... BUT, i am saying that Muslims themselves ARE responsible and WILL need to have input in this system...
Well, if you are going to maintain that, some details, relative to man's guidance are absent from Al-Quran, then, where are these details to be found then, if not in extra-Quranic sources?
what you are saying is that you're quite simply scared of having that kind of responsibility, and that is the EXACT same thing that traditionalists feel! THAT is the reason they cannot let go of sunnah! Fear!
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Afraid of responsibility?
We are not meant to be dogs lead around by a leash, simply following orders blindly. There is no beauty of fulfillment or achievement in that
8421 And when the Quran is recited to them they do not make obeisance?
How does obeying Al-Quran, constitute being lead around blindly like a dog on a leash? Allah, per ayat 1736, forbids blind following
1736 And pursue not that of which you have no knowledge; for every act of hearing, or of seeing or of (feeling in) the heart will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning)
What is your Book of Enlightement?
228 Yet there is among men such a one as disputes about Allah, without Knowledge, without Guidance, and without a Book of enlightenment,-
Good discussion, keep coming.
Peace.
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salams pb,
semantics is partially a problem here. By laws I dont mean like laws of nature or laws of allah... maybe a better word is APPLICATIONS. But I already explained in my post to djcreation, exactly what i meant by law and principle.
You quote an obscure arcane dictionary and then say it is proof...I don't think so. Could you scan the entire definition of fasala so we can all take a look at it?
You're turning out to be a real piece of work PB... I know you have good intentions but PAUSE and REFLECT. Is lisaan al arab arcane or obscure??
3 separate people have approached you who know Arabic, and told you that fasala does not mean detailed! I could scan the pages but lisaan al-arab is on the net! the links been posted here already! or did you forget?
If you don't know Arabic, don't you have the slightest feeling that you are biting off more than you can chew? This is a SERIOUS problem with your intellectual integrity here.
Lisaan al arab is available on the net.. go read it.
O.k., fine. What principles then, regarding the above definition of guidance, are not fassalnahu/fully detailed in Al-Quran? That's all I want to know.
I feel like smacking my head when you say stuff like this.. it just shows how little you are actually reading of my post. I have said that ALL the principles are there. The APPLICATIONS/laws are NOT all there (only some). And then I gave the example of punishment for drinking... ring any bells yet??
Well, if you are going to maintain that, some details, relative to man's guidance are absent from Al-Quran, then, where are these details to be found then, if not in extra-Quranic sources?
Haven't I said it since the beginning over and over? WE decide! OH MY GOD!! RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Yes, based on our imaan, our sincere knowledge, our research, science humanities art, everything is put on the line... and we make the call to apply a principle one way or another... and if we are wrong, we fail... and we deserve to fail. HEAVEN DONT COME EASY! Dont expect to avoid hell by just being led around on a leash!!
PRIESTS dont decide, MULLAHS dont decide, HADITH doesn't decide.. WE DECIDE.. and we can change our decisions based on changing times/knowledge/experience. And we dont do this as individuals but as a unified ummah (or else there would be chaos... in fact, hadith PROBABLY started out this way... because there were many groups and chaos was ensuing, they decided to take away everyones right to decide and make those applications "divine" aka hadith... it may have superficially unified people... but unfortunately, it also crippled us).
log asaan samjte hain musalmaan hona (people think its easy to become a true muslim).. why do you think the Prophets, despite being DIRECT receivers of revelation, were not sure of their destiny.. it wasn't just lip service humility! they knew how challenging it truly was!
I have no idea what you are talking about here. Afraid of responsibility?
understand yet?
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Response to Priest Bokmei's opening post
Good post. I agree with your stance. The stumper question for traditionalists would be 'If it's so important, then why are the details of salat included in the Qur'an?'
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PEACE, ANDYA,
Response to Priest Bokmei's opening post
Good post. I agree with your stance. The stumper question for traditionalists would be 'If it's so important, then why are the details of salat included in the Qur'an?'
Exactly!
Thanks for your comment.
Peace.
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Salaams priest , All,
Priest said"
With all of this said, what details then, pertinent to living a righteous life, hence, being able to successfully pass the test of conduct, are not to be found in Al-Quran, necessitating, seeking them out in extra-Quranic tainted bodies of work i.e sunnah and or hadith?
With this in mind then, how is the following contradicton reconciled
Allah claims that His Quran IS fully detailed/complete. "
keeping in mind that the ayah is somewhat mistranslated
002.177
YUSUFALI It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing.And the righteous way is expalined at other places in the quran isn't it?
Or did you mean something else priest to what i have said.
Regards.
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peace All,
After reviewing the occurrences of fassala vb. (II)
697, 698, 6119, 6126, 752, 1712
655, 732, 7174, 911, 105, 1024, 132, 3028,
111, 413, 4144
6154, 7145, 1037, 12111, 1712
6114, 7133
It seems that it does not mean 'detailed'. See 4144, 7133 for example.
It means to make distinct, distinguish, clarify.
salat=prayer is still incorrect however.
Wakas
