86:5-6
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In 865-6, the quran talks about the creation of sperm. I do not understand the translation. Is it "between the backbone and the ribs?" Could someone break it down for me please. 5. Falyanthuri al-insanu mimma khuliqa
6. Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin. On the Free Minds page, it says that it is between the backbone and the testicles. How accurate is this? I am going to post this in the quran forum as well. Thank you. -
In 865-6, the quran talks about the creation of sperm. I do not understand the translation. Is it "between the backbone and the ribs?" Could someone break it down for me please. 5. Falyanthuri al-insanu mimma khuliqa
6. Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin. On the Free Minds page, it says that it is between the backbone and the testicles. How accurate is this? I am going to post this in the quran forum as well. Thank you.Khi- Id translate 865-7 as
Let the HUMAN reflect on his creation.
He was created from ejected liquid.
HE(the human) comes out from between the spine and the viscera.
Many relate 'yakhruj' 2 the sperm but i believe it can equally refer 2 the human being himself which wld then be correct. From the context it cdan be seen tht GOD wants 2 make clear 2 the human how lowly he was so tht he shdnt become arrogant. GOD Bless! -
Peace,
I actually believe that these verses are refering to consummation not the production of sperm.i.e.
865 Let the Human reflect on his creation
866 He was created from ejected liquid
867 Coming out amongst the spine and viscera.yokhrejo means coming out.
min means from but it also means amongst
solb means back or backbone, i.e spine'
ttaraa'ib means viscera but it has a female meaning associated with it.
Peace
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peace ichephren,
Firstly, nice to see you post again. Now, onto your Q...
It has been discussed previously (the search function at the top of this forum is extremely helpful)
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3062It seems the FM translation is wrong because TaRaiB is plural, and the Arabic plural means more than two, and as far as I know, us males usually only have two testicles.
I'm pretty sure it cant refer to "He/human" like Khizar suggests, but I'm not great with grammar. I'll attempt my own literal translation
867
Ya (it) khruju (comes forth / emerges) min (from) bayni (between/amongst) al ssulbi* (the loin) wa (and) al ttara-ibi (the ribs)
*see 423 for the plural 'aslab'/loins
Unfortunately, ttara-ibi in that form doesn't occur anywhere else, so I guess its open to speculation, but it can be narrowed down if one considers it is plural.
The only thing I can think of between the two points is the spine, and I do know that the signal for ejaculation does come from that area (the base of the spine) or at least it travels down the spine. Perhaps that is relevant, perhaps not.
(6) he has been created out of a seminal fluid
(7) issuing from between the loins and the pelvic arch .*
- The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).
Hope that has helped a little.
Wakas
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peace ichephren,
Firstly, nice to see you post again. Now, onto your Q...
It has been discussed previously (the search function at the top of this forum is extremely helpful)
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3062It seems the FM translation is wrong because TaRaiB is plural, and the Arabic plural means more than two, and as far as I know, us males usually only have two testicles.
I'm pretty sure it cant refer to "He/human" like Khizar suggests, but I'm not great with grammar. I'll attempt my own literal translation
867
Ya (it) khruju (comes forth / emerges) min (from) bayni (between/amongst) al ssulbi* (the loin) wa (and) al ttara-ibi (the ribs)
*see 423 for the plural 'aslab'/loins
Unfortunately, ttara-ibi in that form doesn't occur anywhere else, so I guess its open to speculation, but it can be narrowed down if one considers it is plural.
The only thing I can think of between the two points is the spine, and I do know that the signal for ejaculation does come from that area (the base of the spine) or at least it travels down the spine. Perhaps that is relevant, perhaps not.
(6) he has been created out of a seminal fluid
(7) issuing from between the loins and the pelvic arch .*
- The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).
Hope that has helped a little.
Wakas
Khi- Salam. Yes ive heard tht argument be4. U may be right there. GOD Bless!
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Greetings ichephren,
I would like to make a comment here?
In 865-6, the quran talks about the creation of sperm. I do not understand the translation. Is it "between the backbone and the ribs?" Could someone break it down for me please. 5. Falyanthuri al-insanu mimma khuliqa
6. Khuliqa min ma-in dafiqin. On the Free Minds page, it says that it is between the backbone and the testicles. How accurate is this? I am going to post this in the quran forum as well. Thank you.Sura 86 is not referencing Human reproduction in any way, shape, or form.
Sura 86 is entirely about ?alttariqi??..i.e. the Morning Star?..i.e. Jesus, and how He was worshiped as God; was Crucified; was Resurrected; and Judges the dead?
To illustrate that sura 86 is NOT referring to Human reproduction; I have detailed and compared all of the Koranic fluid-based ?creation? ayahs with that of sura 86?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=29257#29257
Here?I delve into 86.7 & 86.8?.showing beyond any reasonable doubt that sura 86 specifically references the Crucifixion and Resurrection of ?alttariqi??i.e. Jesus?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40023#40023
For the entire sura exegesis, you can look here?
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=28737#28737
Hope this helps you in your quest for the truth?.
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Good day!
Wakas stated that in the Arabic language, the plural form is used for numbers of three or greater. I agree with this. In arabic we have "muthanna" to denote 2, and "jam3" to denote 3 or more.
Hence the word "taraeb" actually means plural. The ribs seems to be the most accurate explanation. ( I don't believe it's specifically female anatomy) I also don't agree with the tranlasion that equates "taraeb" with "Viscera" ( Viscera actually means internal organ of some sort in English. It is the plural of Viscous )
Please consider the following
Any of you know of a "Jahiliyya" poet known as Umru Al-Qays?
I remember, in one of his poems, he was describing his lover's body. In the second part of a verse in the poem, he describes her as follows
............................
I can't remeber what the first part of the verse was. You can find it in any Arabic Jahiliyya poetry book.
I believe that the language of the Quran is essentially the same language used in the Jahiliyya era. I believe that Umru Al-Qays, if he were alive today, would be more qualified to explain the meaning of words in the Quran than all the so-called "ulama" of Islam combined.
You see, when the Quran talks about the "Poets" it is reffering to those poets of the calliber of Umru Al-Qays, Zuhair bin Abi Sulma, Tarafa Bin Abd, and so forth..
I will post other threads soon, containg words of the Quran that may be found in Jahiliyya poems.
Peace.
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Peace Enigma, All,
Good to have you here Enigma (my favourite band!) )
Off topic TAJ but I like them too!
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taj.
Please excuse me... I studied Jahiliyya poetry way back in secondary school ( i was 15 yrs old ). I can't recall the poem.
Was he describing his donkey?
was he describing his camel??He could have been describing his chimpanze for all I care wink
that's not the point. The point is he used the same word 'TARAIB' in his poetry, which indicates that Umru Al-Qays KNEW WHAT THE WORD MEANS.The word appeared in the Quran and probably has the same meaning there.
I will try to find the poem again to see what exactly he was talking about.
( I remember it was a woman he described, but I can't be too sure ). -
Oh and by the way...
does anyone know what "" means?
I can't remember ( does it mean ivory that is white and shining ? )
If "taraib" means ribs, then there is a possibility that he was describing his lover's ribs as beingmeaning pronounced and protruding like white ivory
maybe the woman he described was thin, and had very fair skin. ?
I will look for the poem again.
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Peace,
Please excuse me... I studied Jahiliyya poetry way back in secondary school ( i was 15 yrs old ). I can't recall the poem.
Was he describing his donkey?
was he describing his camel??
He could have been describing his chimpanze for all I care winkI was just kidding! I knew that Tra'eb was what you were after!
Here is the famous Bayt
So the "Tra'eb" are the "Ribs".
Peace
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Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing and tirb meaning companion.
This is one of those words that does not have a precise meaning rather a poetic meaning.
Taraa'ib certainly does refer to ribs more precisely breast bones but it does have a female meaning associated with it. As you can see in the poem you posted enigma it refers to a female. In fact I would be interested to see if you can find an example where it refers to the male in particular in old writings.
The meaning I associate with taraa'ib is where air gets full. When you breath your stomach rises and your chest too. Tirb, meaning companion or matching I associate with same breath.
In any case I believe these verses refer to consummation, i.e. fertalization of the egg by the sperm as I explained above.
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Peace All,
Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing and tirb meaning companion.
Oh, no, KZD. You are mixing up things here. You are mistaken about the first part here, when you said Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing. I will explain
The Arabic word " " starts with the letter from the three-lettered root . The word " " has more than one Tashkeel and so it's meanings would even be a lot more. Some of them are Ecstasy, An electrifying feeling resulting from either overjoy or sadness, The sort of music or singing that will move you and make you dance like drunk! And many more..
The other Arabic word you mentioned that means Companion is this word " " . It starts with the letter from the three-lettered root . THe word " " also has more than one Tashkeel and so has yet many more meanings one of them sibling or a child of about the same age, etc.So " " and " " are completely different words.
Your mistake resulted from reading them written in Latin letters, because in English, the letter and the sound of does not exist. Some Arabs now are using the shape of number 6 to mean . The sound of is a very heavy version of the sound of the letter T.
On the other hand, the Arabic letter does exist in Latin letters. It is the same as T.This is one of those words that does not have a precise meaning rather a poetic meaning.
It has many meanings, KZD! More than I have time to explain!
Taraa'ib certainly does refer to ribs more precisely breast bones but it does have a female meaning associated with it. As you can see in the poem you posted enigma it refers to a female. In fact I would be interested to see if you can find an example where it refers to the male in particular in old writings.
The poet could be talking about his Faras = Mare, or Naqa = female camel. You would think that some poets would be describing their beloved when they in reality they would be describing their pets, which, at those days could mean to them much more than fellow humans. Ever heard of the famous war of Da7is And Al Gabra'a? Two big tribes ended completely killed because of a war that started from the result of a horserace!
Back to our subject the Arabic dictionaries say that Tra'eb means Ribs. But based on the Ayat , I am, deep down, not convinced. I am thinking what has the "ejected water" got to do with the RIBS!? hmm
You know what, I should ask my Arabic language professor!Have a good day )
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Back to our subject the Arabic dictionaries say that Tra'eb means Ribs. But based on the Ayat , I am, deep down, not convinced. I am thinking what has the "ejected water" got to do with the RIBS!? hmm
You know what, I should ask my Arabic language professor!Have a good day )
I think it is an Ancient belief that sperm came from the rib area or something like that -)
Regards,
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Peace All,
Here is the QXP explanation
865 Let the human being, then, consider out of what he has been created.
(And realize the common origin of all mankind. Has there not passed over man an era when he was not even worth mentioning? 761)
866 He has been created from a turbulent water. (2130, 2425).
867 That issued from between tough rocks and mingled dust.
[?Sulb? = Hard = Tough = Strong, Rocky, as given in ?Tajil Urus? and ?Muhit?. ?Turab? = Dust, with ?Turaib? as its plural in ?Tajil Urus?.
Mountains, rocky as pegs, along with the glacier systems and snow tops and sources of rivers, have been described as water reservoirs in many verses 133, 1519, 3110, 395, 7727, 7928-30, 8820. -
Peace TaJ,
Peace All,
Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing and tirb meaning companion.
Oh, no, KZD. You are mixing up things here. You are mistaken about the first part here, when you said Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing. I will explain
The Arabic word " " starts with the letter from the three-lettered root . The word " " has more than one Tashkeel and so it's meanings would even be a lot more. Some of them are Ecstasy, An electrifying feeling resulting from either overjoy or sadness, The sort of music or singing that will move you and make you dance like drunk! And many more..
The other Arabic word you mentioned that means Companion is this word " " . It starts with the letter from the three-lettered root . THe word " " also has more than one Tashkeel and so has yet many more meanings one of them sibling or a child of about the same age, etc.So " " and " " are completely different words.
Your mistake resulted from reading them written in Latin letters,
because in English, the letter and the sound of does not exist. Some Arabs now are using the shape of number 6 to mean . The sound of is a very heavy version of the sound of the letter T.
On the other hand, the Arabic letter does exist in Latin letters. It is the same as T.Thank you for your explanation. No Taj, I am not mixing the root word 6-r-b with the root word t-r-b. But I do believe that taraa'ib is from the root word t-r-b, tariba. Do you think that taraa'ib is not from root word tariba? If not then what root word is it from?
From the root word tariba many words are derived including taraa'ib. Unlike other trialiteral derivations it is hard to relate a common thread between these words. I mean the tariba has very little to do with tirb with atraab or taraa'ib. The common thread I see is, and I am being imaginative, is that it is refering to belly-full or hanf-full, something to do with how when you breath your belly and chest becomes full and round.
Otherwise, the most common or straightforward meaning of taraa'ib is chest bone, but I certainly do believe it is used more in conjunction with women another reason for which is that tariba means breast.
This is one of those words that does not have a precise meaning rather a poetic meaning.
It has many meanings, KZD! More than I have time to explain!
Well if you do find the time please explain. Like I said it is hard to see a common thread between the derivations from the root word tariba.
Taraa'ib certainly does refer to ribs more precisely breast bones but it does have a female meaning associated with it. As you can see in the poem you posted enigma it refers to a female. In fact I would be interested to see if you can find an example where it refers to the male in particular in old writings.
The poet could be talking about his Faras = Mare, or Naqa = female camel. You would think that some poets would be describing their beloved when they in reality they would be describing their pets, which, at those days could mean to them much more than fellow humans. Ever heard of the famous war of Da7is And Al Gabra'a? Two big tribes ended completely killed because of a war that started from the result of a horserace!
The poet may be singing about his camel? Perhaps, you never know wih these poet types )
Back to our subject the Arabic dictionaries say that Tra'eb means Ribs. But based on the Ayat , I am, deep down, not convinced. I am thinking what has the "ejected water" got to do with the RIBS!? hmm
You know what, I should ask my Arabic language professor!Have a good day )
Thanks I would be highly appreciative. Of course it is my belief that the trilliteral derivations have a common thread going to the root word. Most of the time it is quite obvious. But sometimes the original meaning is lost. I think that in general figuring that out gives much more meaning and depth to the words.
Peace
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Hi KZD,
Thank you for your explanation. No Taj, I am not mixing the root word 6-r-b with the root word t-r-b.
Oh, no, KZD! Excuse me! You did write in your previous post the following
Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing and tirb meaning companion.
Singing and the joy resulted from it is one of the meanings of the root 6-r-b. The root t-r-b does not have a derivative with the meaning of singing. In your earlier post you joined the two different meanings in one root. You didn't mention which root though. Here is what you wrote clearly and exactly
Taraa'ib is from the same root as atraab meaning singing and tirb meaning companion.
You did say " ..FROM THE SAME ROOT AS.."!
I am very surprised you are denying what you wrote especially since it is right in front of our eyes!!! -
Very interesting, how this thread is turning out
By the way, concerning the poem, I think he was indeed describing a woman in those verses. Her name is "Unayza" . The poet states that he snuck into her tent past some guards at night, while she was in her bed dress ( she must have been of high social standing ). Then, later on , they snuck out with her donkey (LOL)
Here, briefly, are some of the verses./
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/Then immediately, ( in the next verses ) he goes on to describe her body.
In the poem, we are led to assume that she received him in a state of undress, ( wearing her night gown ). Her ...um... cleavage oops must have been visible, so he goes on to describe it in the verse that is the subject of this discussion. ( isn't this how Jahiliya women used to dress anyway? They would cover their hair with a shawl to protect it from the heat and desert sand, but they would draw the shawl back around their neck leaving their bosom visible ) This is why God commanded them to cover that area with the shawl ( khimar ).
We can learn so much about those times from studying the poetry.
You can check out my post entitled "Jahilya poetry 1 " in this same section.
Peace
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Hello Lote,
Back to our subject the Arabic dictionaries say that Tra'eb means Ribs. But based on the Ayat , I am, deep down, not convinced. I am thinking what has the "ejected water" got to do with the RIBS!? hmm
You know what, I should ask my Arabic language professor!Have a good day
I think it is an Ancient belief that sperm came from the rib area or something like that -)
Regards,
Is that so!? roll
But the Quran is not a mythology book, LT.
