The prophets, and their miracles
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Peace JM,
The miracle sent 2 the Prophet Muhammad was the Quran Itself n tht was enough a miracle 4 the ppl at his time. The knowledgable amongst the Arabs knew 2 appreciate it just like the magicians knew 2 appreciate GOD's miracle worked through Moses. GOD Bless! -
peace be upon you lotetree,
They are indeed Parables and not true - They are Symbolic Stories to Illustrate a deeper spiritual truth which can't be conveyed via ordinary discurses.
i totally agree, except for one part, I wouldn't say they are not "true" except when regarding them literally but they are true in the sense that the processes of the mind and self that they are symbolic of are realities
for example, Jesus giving life to the dead, healing the blind and lepers, is symbolic of the "newly formed will" reviving the divine breath/spirit/energy within us, letting us see the truth objectively and curing the disease in our hearts
P.S.-Lotetree, check 37 and 226 there are many allegories in this reading, especially when regarding the stories, they are examples for us to follow, and archetypes 12111
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peace be upon you lotetree,
They are indeed Parables and not true - They are Symbolic Stories to Illustrate a deeper spiritual truth which can't be conveyed via ordinary discurses.
i totally agree, except for one part, I wouldn't say they are not "true" except when regarding them literally but they are true in the sense that the processes of the mind and self that they are symbolic of are realities
That is what I meant Idris. They are not true in literal sense.
Scriptures are spiritual Guides and therefore there can only be spiritual truth behind the stories. Though I do not deny that the stories may also have some historical accuracy or relevance but it is not always the case. We should only try to understand the Parables in terms of spiritual truth that it is trying to convey...
for example, Jesus giving life to the dead, healing the blind and lepers, is symbolic of the "newly formed will" reviving the divine breath/spirit/energy within us, letting us see the truth objectively and curing the disease in our hearts
Yes, this is good insight Idris.
P.S.-Lotetree, check 37 and 226 there are many allegories in this reading, especially when regarding the stories, they are examples for us to follow, and archetypes 12111
Yes, I have read them Idris. I love poetry and I can appreciate allegories, similies and metaphor in all the scriptural texts... -)
That is why many Scriptures are written in the Language of Poetry because poetry with its power of sign and symbols can convey spiritual truth more effectively than normal discursive language...Regards,
Regards,
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Peace be upon you all,
I also hold the same understanding as Idris and Lote Tree, they are symbolic stories designed for right brain acceptance. It is the right brain that is responsible for understanding, for putting pieces together, while the left brain takes things apart (this can be verified in pshcyological books). That is why spiritual teachings have always been either heiroglyphics(pictures) or stories. The are easier to learn and remember.
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Peace be upon you,
To keep it short, Musa's word/debate swallowed up the word/debate of the magicians. Physics agrees that EVERYTHING is a SOUND. What animals movement looks like a sound wave? A snake! D
This is old symbolism. The So called Bible uses the snake as the one who WHISPERED(sound) to Eve. And the ancient Kemetans(Egyptains) wore the snake on thier foreheads to speak of the higher knowledge of SOUND.
YOu will also have to study the other symbolisms involved in these stories like Mus'a STAFF, which Musa says he "Leans on for support" and "guides the sheep with". The God showed Musa the truth about this "physical Illusion" that we call reality. There is no reality but the God.
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To keep it short, Musa's word/debate swallowed up the word/debate of the magicians. Physics agrees that EVERYTHING is a SOUND. What animals movement looks like a sound wave? A snake! D
Khi- Salam. This interpretation of the verse is very far fetched. Ever heard of Occam's razor. The simplest understanding is mostly the right one n the simplest understanding of the verse in qs is tht the rod turned into a serpent n swallowed up the magicians false devices. There is no mention of any word(kalima) or sound(arabic 'saut') in tht verse. As far as physics is concerned modern scientific knowledge leads us 2 the conclusion tht the world we see is all in our brain. We never reach the original. No light ever enters our brain. Thus the world we see is a simulation in our brain. Thus the world is like a matrix n we know tht in a matrix all is possible. Thus ic no prob tht GOD shld interfere in the matrix whenever n wherever He pleases. Ofcourse under normal conditions He doesnt but in case of Messengers n Prophets tht makes it a special case.
This is old symbolism. The So called Bible uses the snake as the one who WHISPERED(sound) to Eve. And the ancient Kemetans(Egyptains) wore the snake on thier foreheads to speak of the higher knowledge of SOUND.
Khi- Like i said all speculations n now u even refer 2 the Bible 2 prove a pt in the Quran.
YOu will also have to study the other symbolisms involved in these stories like Mus'a STAFF, which Musa says he "Leans on for support" and "guides the sheep with". The God showed Musa the truth about this "physical Illusion" that we call reality. There is no reality but the God.
Khi- If u truly believe tht theres no reality but GOD then u shld have no prob with GOD performing miracles through his messengers n prophets. Y in GOD's name cldnt the sea be physically parted by GOD's will or the rod of Moses' turned into a serpant by GOD's Will? GOD Bless!
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Peace be upon you Idmkhizr,
Ofcourse under normal conditions He doesnt but in case of Messengers n Prophets tht makes it a special case.
I see. A special Case. So teh messengers were me UNLIKE us, is that it?
Y in GOD's name cldnt the sea be physically parted by GOD's will or the rod of Moses' turned into a serpant by GOD's Will?
I think if you take a rod by the sea and try to split the sea, after a few hours at the most, you will realize that the God has created this world based on LAWS , and these LAWS do not change for anyone. Each is paid according to his/her deeds. You reap what you sow. Why cant any of the poor people today be shown away to escape through a sea like Musa?
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Peace all.
I totally agree with khizar that the prophets did indeed perform miracles. Usually, the parables in the Quran are identified as such. And the laws of physics are God's laws, so He can use them as He sees fit.
For Moses' parting of the sea...two Russian physicists demonstrated that the sea would be parted if there were sustained winds blowing at a certain velocity (both speed and direction) for a certain period of time. The force of the winds would indeed be enough to hold the waters up long enough for the Israelites to pass from one shore to the other.
We may not always be able to duplicate such feats, which God does with ease, but they are understandable in some cases.
There is also the case of the Walls of Jericho in the Bible. The people marching around the city for the specific number of times and days prescribed by God, then getting completely quiet, then blasting with trumpets created resonant frequencies that caused the walls to crumble. I can do the same on a very tiny scale (pardon the pun) by shattering a crystal glass with a resonant frequency.
If a modern day physician came across someone in Jesus' time who had just drowned or was, wouldn't it look miraculous to everyone if that physician revived the patient with CPR? If we mere mortals, over time, have learned to revive patients and treat serious illnesses, then who can say what knowledge God shared with Jesus when it came to healing people. If I told you that my cousin had triple bypass surgery, you wouldn't think this was a parable...simply an account of what happened after my cousin had a heart attack.
For all prophets, if they have a knowledge of God's spiritual laws, why wouldn't they also be given knowledge of the laws of physics (or medicine or chemistry)--or at least instructions that allow them to use those laws?
As for the rod turning into a snake and swallowing up the rods of Pharaoh's magicians, perhaps we simply don't understand enough at this point to know how that happened. There is nothing that suggests a sound wave. Besides, a wave of any kind is of the same form when mapped out on a graph. The snake-swallowing could have been the transmutation of matter or possibly light wave manipulation, which leads me to believe the incident happened pretty much as described. Things that happen in the subatomic world of particle physics are often far stranger!
Bohr, after dreaming about the (now outdated) structue of the atom had a dream in which he saw one snake swallowing another--which led to an understanding of the structure of a benzene ring.
Heisenberg changed the way physicists looked at their experiments by showing that the observer cannot be separated from what is being observed. And as khizar pointed out, our brains are interpreters of what we see...our world is made up only of our perceptions. Even the images come in upside down and our brains must turn them right side up for us. What we call reality is merely an invention within our own minds.
Then there's the, er, matter of dark matter. From 90 to 99% of our universe is made up of stuff we can't even see! We know it's there, because we see the gravitational evidence. But without light, we can't see any of this "hidden" matter. So at best, we can see 10%...and quite possibily only 1% of the vastness around us.
So in the grand scheme of looking at the sum total of what we don't know, a rod turning into a snake and gobbling up other rods seems entirely possible. And tales of such events are accurate as well as designed to show us, as we very slowly increase in the sophistication of our own knowledge, that if the prophets could have such knowledge of the physical world, then just possibly they have such knowledge of the spiritual world.
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Peace be upon you Sytalls,
Peace all.
I totally agree with khizar that the prophets did indeed perform miracles. Usually, the parables in the Quran are identified as such. And the laws of physics are God's laws, so He can use them as He sees fit.
Certainly, The God can do as The God Wills, but the God has decreed Mercy for Himself, meaning the God has given us LAW to work with so that we can find our way. Otherwise we would have to figure out each day how to do simple things like prepare food. Thanks to the God for His Mercy. How could we have any means of reasoning without the LAWS to ground us? Also, why has teh God done so much for some and so little , in comparison, for anyone that you or I know? Didn't the Jews(Hitler), Africans , and other groups go through just as much? Where was thier Musa to split a sea?
For Moses' parting of the sea...two Russian physicists demonstrated that the sea would be parted if there were sustained winds blowing at a certain velocity (both speed and direction) for a certain period of time. The force of the winds would indeed be enough to hold the waters up long enough for the Israelites to pass from one shore to the other.
In thier experiment, did the large group of people walking through that wind tunnel effect thier test? Further, it does not state that thier were high gusdt us winds, it states that Musa touched the sea with his stick and it parted. They should experiment with taht and see how long it woul dtake for such winds to reappear. I am sure thier was some African or Jew(Hitler) that was righteous and did not deserve such oppression.
We may not always be able to duplicate such feats, which God does with ease, but they are understandable in some cases.
Well than Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny can also be understandable using that basis. They just don't duplicate such feats all the time for everyone.
There is also the case of the Walls of Jericho in the Bible. The people marching around the city for the specific number of times and days prescribed by God, then getting completely quiet, then blasting with trumpets created resonant frequencies that caused the walls to crumble. I can do the same on a very tiny scale (pardon the pun) by shattering a crystal glass with a resonant frequency.
Yes, verifyable science is what we SHOULD deal with. Now show me the same SCIENCE in dealing with Seas splitting by the touch of a stick and sticks truning into snakes.
If a modern day physician came across someone in Jesus' time who had just drowned or was, wouldn't it look miraculous to everyone if that physician revived the patient with CPR?
yes, it would APPEAR miraculous, but if the physician explained to them the LAW that he used to do what he did, just like a magic trick explained, it would lose its Glitter. Everything is based on LAW, that is how doctores know what to do. Otherwise we might get the incorrect lesson that we should wait for the God to "save us" through some intervention, when the God clearly says we reap what we sow.
If we mere mortals, over time, have learned to revive patients and treat serious illnesses, then who can say what knowledge God shared with Jesus when it came to healing people. If I told you that my cousin had triple bypass surgery, you wouldn't think this was a parable...simply an account of what happened after my cousin had a heart attack.
Is it your underfstanding that the God is trying to tell us that Isa, son of Mariam, revived the dead through a medical proceedure? You mean to tell me there was a man of God who came with medical proceedures that he did not SHARE with the people? We still havce blind people in this world, where is that prescription from the God's messenger?
For all prophets, if they have a knowledge of God's spiritual laws, why wouldn't they also be given knowledge of the laws of physics (or medicine or chemistry)--or at least instructions that allow them to use those laws?
You said LAWS three times, yet "miracles" are suppossed to be soomething that goes against Laws. So its not even about them using LAWS, its about the God taking over.
As for the rod turning into a snake and swallowing up the rods of Pharaoh's magicians, perhaps we simply don't understand enough at this point to know how that happened.
We are told not to pursue that which we have no knowledge of.
There is nothing that suggests a sound wave. Besides, a wave of any kind is of the same form when mapped out on a graph. The snake-swallowing could have been the transmutation of matter or possibly light wave manipulation, which leads me to believe the incident happened pretty much as described. Things that happen in the subatomic world of particle physics are often far stranger!
So you are saying they were gathered together with Subatomic particle machines, or did they have sticks, which when thrown, turned to snakes? Are we talking about them mastering the God's LAWS , or are we talking about "Miracles"? I think it is not clear.
Bohr, after dreaming about the (now outdated) structue of the atom had a dream in which he saw one snake swallowing another--which led to an understanding of the structure of a benzene ring.
Heisenberg changed the way physicists looked at their experiments by showing that the observer cannot be separated from what is being observed. And as khizar pointed out, our brains are interpreters of what we see...our world is made up only of our perceptions. Even the images come in upside down and our brains must turn them right side up for us. What we call reality is merely an invention within our own minds.
Then there's the, er, matter of dark matter. From 90 to 99% of our universe is made up of stuff we can't even see! We know it's there, because we see the gravitational evidence. But without light, we can't see any of this "hidden" matter. So at best, we can see 10%...and quite possibily only 1% of the vastness around us.
So in the grand scheme of looking at the sum total of what we don't know, a rod turning into a snake and gobbling up other rods seems entirely possible. And tales of such events are accurate as well as designed to show us, as we very slowly increase in the sophistication of our own knowledge, that if the prophets could have such knowledge of the physical world, then just possibly they have such knowledge of the spiritual world.
You slid in their the statement "and tales of such events are accurate", how so? Were are these events rerpoduced? I am sure all of the religious and non religious world for that matter would pay to see these events reenacted, but it just doesn't happen. These events will always stay hidden in some lab because sticks don't EVER turn into snakes.
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Peace all.
Peace idolfree.
I'm not sure about your question concerning where was another Moses for the Jews persecuted by Hitler or for people in Africa. If I in any way implied that one group of people was more deserving of rescue than another, my apologies. That was not my intention. I was addressing only the specific incident of parting the Red Sea.
As to how Jesus healed the sick or for Moses touchng the sea with his staff and the waters parting, that goes to what I was trying to say (but obviously didn't quite do so very clearly ). Moses and Jesus didn't do those things on their own--God performed the miracles through them. God can do such things with ease, even if they are still on the edge of our "reason" and within our realm of comprehension, especially as we grow in knowledge.
It's as if we are allowed to glimpse the inner workings of some things without necessarily being able to duplicate the results or, at least, duplicate them without a lot of effort. But this much I do know--we must first know that something can be done before we can begin to try it on our own. Awareness happens when God does something extraordinary for humans to witness. Perhaps miracles are a way for us to know, when we are ready, what wonderful things can be achieved.
Webster's defines "miracle" as "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs" or "an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment."
While the definition of "miracle" may stay the same, our definition of "extraordinary event" changes as our knowledge increases. Our ability to understand concepts evolves and we learn in stages, according to what our minds can accept. I had to learn classical physics before studying quantum mechanics and relativity. And people who went on to grad school know far more than I do.
You slid in their the statement "and tales of such events are accurate", how so? Were are these events rerpoduced? I am sure all of the religious and non religious world for that matter would pay to see these events reenacted, but it just doesn't happen. These events will always stay hidden in some lab because sticks don't EVER turn into snakes.
And man will never fly or travel to the moon or harness the power of the atom. Yesterday's lab experiments currently light our homes, keep them warm or cool, and allow us to travel to all parts of the globe with relative ease, as well as venture beyond our planet's atmosphere.
If I were to travel back in time and try to explain nuclear fission to someone who hadn't yet learned to start a fire whenever they pleased, I'd be considered crazy. They couldn't understand what a lightbulb is, much less the need for electricity. So what purpose would there be for trying to manipulate an atom--something which can't be seen. Quite impractical for people to pursue such a fantastical tale, much less believe what I was saying. Overall, we tend to develop knowledge that will be used in some way...articles of convenience for a time.
They would, however, probably be intersted if I were to use my Bic and start a campfire in seconds. But how would I adequately explain such a thing? For a simple dollar lighter, I'd first have to explain what plastic and metal and butane are. Then there'd be no way to duplicate that same lighter in the Stone Age. Ah, but the good thing might be that in lighting the fire, I could possibly "spark" the imagination of a Stone Age scientist who realized fire could indeed be harnessed and put to good use as needed, which begins the process of discovery. (And don't get me into a causality argument here--it's just a very simplistic example.)
So perhaps it would take a tremendous explanation, involving basic concepts we don't yet understand, to explain to us how to turn an ordinary staff into a snake. And it seems we've yet to find a practical use for such a skill. Therefore, mankind will have to wait patiently until the day when "sticks-to-snakes" are within our realm of understanding. Even if that day should ever come, once again, it's very likely we would only be able to duplicate the action with considerable effort and expense. Still, we have an example of when such a thing occurred, so we can see that it's possible.
We may not always be able to duplicate such feats, which God does with ease, but they are understandable in some cases.
Well than Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny can also be understandable using that basis. They just don't duplicate such feats all the time for everyone.
Once we learn how to do certain things, we get better at them. I have more memory storage capacity in my tiny MP3 player than the biggest computer made at the dawn of that era. Therefore, it's quite conceivable to me that God, in His inifinte Power and Wisdom, can work miracles through His prophets with ease...for the benefit of those who need such miracles at that time, as well as providing us with examples of what is within the realm of possibiities. (As for pursuing what we have no knowledge of, I tend to think that applies to matters of pure speculation--such as the number of years the people and the dog were in the cave.)
Finally (yes, Virginia, there is a "finally"), we don't have to talk about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. Instead, we could talk about quarks and neutrinos or maybe electron clouds and quantum jumps...or superstring theory, where there's plenty to challenge the mind and stretch the boundaries of human reason.