making sense of heaven/hell
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Peace Ichephren,
I agree with some of the thoughts posted but would vary in my understandings thus far with respect to attributing some sort of human emotion to God. We must maintain that God does not 'need' man, but man needs God. In this context to say that an act of shirk would somehow disappoint or enrage God is attributing Biblical attributes which cannot be found in the Qur'an. God is far beyond human comprehension, and thus, far beyond human emotion. It can be no other way, as the Creator and the created are not equal.
That being said, I agree completely with Kyle's comments. An act of shirk is the worst of the sins because it leads one down the dark path of seperation. This can be seen in all self-segregated groups. Once you deviate from Oneness, you have seperated yourself, by illusion only, from the whole, and hence, spread seeds of further discord since you are bound to bring someone with you, and consequently, bound to oppose someone else as well. And these someone's become many, and many become nations, and so on and so forth. I would venture to say that shirk is the root of all the seperation we see today.
So it's not so much that you will be "punished" without mercy for shirk, but that shirk is difficult to turn back from, and if you maintain it to your end, then you have ended in seperation. It is a self-inflicted consequence, not a punishment, as is the law of recompense.
Peace,
Tay -
In light of my recent debate with Apple Pie over original sin, a thing emerges on my mind about this thread
The Qur'an said shirk is the greatest sin.
I think Christians believe that the greatest sin is Adam's Original Sin, which condemns everyone to hell except those who accept that Jesus is God.
Claiming Jesus is God is shirk.
I see that both positions are absolute opposites.
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Peace all...
I agree with many of the thoughts here, and I would think that separation from God would be hell. In very tough times when I've let myself get caught in the foolish trap of despair, wrongly thinking perhaps God was distant from me, it's not been pleasant.
Certainly, having partners (of any type) with God leads to relying on something other than God, which implies less than complete trust. Like most people, when I don't totally trust another person, I find that I hold back. So I can see there is a danger of separation when someone chooses to give part of the trust that rightfully belongs to God to something or someone else.
The parts of the Quran that talk about feeding the fires of hell sound very much like the way negative energy feeds upon itself and grows.
And to add to what idolfree said about bringing separate parts back together, especially as it relates to physics, there again, we have duality. Quantum mechanics can only be used for the examination of the very small--for particles, while relativity can only be used for the very large--for stars and planets. Superstring theory seeks to unite these two, giving us the means to make calculations that fit for both. And it's all based on tiny vibrating loops or "strings" that exist below the level of quarks. It is the best hope yet of finding a true unified theory.
The math, however, is soooo complicated, and it requires us to look at more dimensions that our standard 4 dimensions of spacetime. Very tough for the brain to grasp and difficult to model, since we are capable of perceiving only 3 dimensions. But it will be interesting to see what develops and how our understanding grows when there is unity in how we study both gluons and galaxies or quarks and quasars.
As a side note to this idea of heaven and hell...and I have no idea how to connect the dots on this, but I'm throwing it out there anyway...I think it's interesting that nuclear fission (splitting an atom apart) creates toxic waste while nuclear fusion (joining two atomic nuclei together) does not.
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Peace be upon you Sytalls,
Beautifully expressed. Also sounds like you have good knowledge of science, I would appreciate if you added more of that to the discussions to help us, myself included, who only know the surface of such things.
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Peace to you also, idolfree.
Thank you for your very kind comment. And I would be delighted to offer whatever I can, within my own limited realm of knowledge about this subject. Although I currently make my living as a writer, I was indeed a physics major once upon a time. I never went past the undergrad level, since there was a point at which I knew I loved studying physics but didn't relish the idea of actually having a career as a physicist.
Oddly enough, I decided to go back to school and study physics about a year after becoming a Muslim (insert usual labeling apologies here). And I really didn't even know I was any good at math! shock Even as late as the seventies and early eighties, girls weren't really encouraged to pursue physics and math degrees. Especially not those of us who were once cheerleaders. Evidently, in most people's minds, pom-poms and Newton's Laws of Motion didn't mesh well or something.
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Peace Sytalls,
I concur with Kyle's praise. It's interesting that you brought up string theory as I just finished hour 3 of the program "The Elegant Universe" last night on the Nova website.
I must admit that the concept of mathematics painting these wild pictures does not render in my mind. It's not until I "see" it that I understand it. Video always helps, as does articulate explanation. Nevertheless, I seemed to grasp what was being explained about string theory but I didn't get really excited until they (physicists) introduced the possibility of parallel universes via the hypothetical membranes, or "branes". I found this absolutely fascinating, and would like to read more about it.
Do you know of any good layman starting points? Also, how does string theory fit into the holographic theory, if at all?
Thanks in advance, and peace,
-Tay -
Peace to you, Tay.
Oh wow...I love Brian Greene's explanations of string theory. He does an excellent job of explaining the concept without going too far into the mathematics. A lot of the math involved in string theory is well beyond my abilities to understand.
Although I don't have cable and haven't seen the Nova program, I do have a copy of "The Elegant Universe." It is delicious reading.
Another book I frequently recommend to people who want a better understanding of quantum mechanics and relativity is Gary Zukav's "Dancing Wu Li Masters." He discusses the other worlds theory (which you may enjoy, since you liked the branes parallel universes stuff), and he blends in eastern philosophies with the physics lessons, as well. And he uses a good sense of humor throughout the book.
For the topic of membranes and parallel universes, there's a book out by a theoretical professor named Michio Kaku. I believe it's called "Parallel Worlds" or "Parallel Universes." But I haven't yet read it, so I'm not sure how good it is. Kaku has several other books out on quantum theory and relativity that are quite good, so I'm assuming this latest work should be interesting, as well.
There are lots of interesting things that happen at the sub-atomic level--particles that seem to communicate with each other about their locations, even though they seem to be in no way connected to each other physically; quantum jumps (or leaps) where an electron goes from one energy state to another without passing through any sort of state in between (it's at one state and then another--poof!); and, my favorite, tunneling or barrier penetration, where the wavefunction of a particle crosses a potential energy barrier into an area that would normally be forbidden by classical interpretations.
Now with new theories emerging, physics is getting really exciting! Holographic brain theory is fascinating! Especially when you consider the passage from the Quran that mentions how even our shadows bend towards God. (Sorry, I don't have the sura number at the moment, but perhaps you'll know what I'm talking about.) And this theory definitely, definitely, definitely fits with God's statements about being the True Reality.
I'm not entirely sure how holographic theory, which is pretty new, would affect string theory. String theory seeks to find a way to mathematically define the behavior of both particles and things in space by a single set of equations, rather than using two different theories (quantum mechanics and relativity). That's not a very precise description, but perhaps close enough.
Holographic theory redefines how we see the whole picture...including whether or not there is even a "whole picture" that we can see, especially as individuals. It goes way beyond the Uncertainty Principle, taking us into a world that suggests to me something like very much like the worlds portrayed in "The Matrix."
But here's the thing...for most people who have studied physics, our idea of perception gets altered. This started happening to me at the classical stage with electromagnetism, when I begin to realize my contact with things in general was all based on the repulsion of like forces. You know, that same feeling that comes when you try to push two like poles of a magnet together.
Since studying modern physics, even if only at the undergrad level, I've lost any sense that there is such a thing as "reality" in the way most people talk about it.
By way of example...while working production for a corporate client's meeting in Florida, and during some down time, I went on this Spiderman amusement park ride with a colleague. (I know, tough career I have, right?) Anyway, it involved a roller coaster ride inside an enclosed space that used holographic images. As hard as I tried to get my mind to accept that things flying into my face were only collections of light particles, I couldn't do it on the instinctual level. Even knowing I was totally surrounded by illusions, which were supported by sensory stimuli (air currents, water, certain sounds, the way the background was designed, and the movement of the roller coaster itself), my brain simply was incapable of NOT responding to make-believe characters or objects flying toward my face. lol I flinched every single time!
Anyway, I always think of that in relation to holographic theories.
There was a pretty decent paper I read a short time ago about holographic brain theory from a physicist's point of view. If I can find it on google, I'll post the link for you. Also, I'll ask around and see if anyone knows if there's a good non-technical book out on the subject yet.
Sometimes my limitations are glaringly obvious when it comes to my ability to describe certain phenomena without relying on math (especially since I no longer use it often enough to speak the "language" as I once did). That's where physicists like Greene or Kaku or Zukav excel. Their knowledge about physics combined with great communication skills give them the ability to translate complex mathematical equations into language that non-mathematicians can understand. It is a different level of knowing. And it's interesting that the great scientists were blessed with both creative thinking and mathematical abilities. They were simply able to look past how everyone else was defining "reality."
Okay, well, ops clearly I have no trouble opening up about this subject. Or showing my geeky side.
Thank you, Tay. Peace.
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Heaven and Hell?
Heav'n but the Vision of fulfill'd Desire,......?
And Hell the Shadow from a Soul on fire,...?Regards,
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Peace be upon you Sytalls,
Thank you for sharing the "science". I think you may have me in the book store today
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Strange, is it not? That of the myriads who...
Before us pass'd the door of Darkness through,
Not one returns to tell us of the Road,
Which to discover we must travel too.Sytalls,
I did not know you were a Omar Khayyam reader?
Shakespeare would come to echo these lines in Hamlet!Regards,
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Peace all.
D Lote-Tree, I think pretty much everybody I knew was "into" Omar Khayyam in the seventies. My first introduction was when a guy recited the "a jug of wine, a loaf of bread, and thou...beside me singing in the wilderness" line. A good friend of mine still keeps The Rubaiyat on her bedside table so that she can read a passage or two each night before she goes to sleep.
Thanks for the link, Tay. ) Living in the country is peaceful, but not having cable is a drawback out here. We also don't have high-speed internet access, so I'll have to forward your link to a friend's house in the city and watch it there. After reading the information on the link, I did and search and found out I could also get a copy through Netflix.
Something else you may be interested in is the movie Zenje mentioned on another thread, "What the BLEEP Do We Know." While it doesn't refer to the holographic theory specifically, the information relates to this in some ways--the idea behind it anyway. There's lots of good information about quantum physics. Netflix had a copy of the film, and I imagine some other video stores would, as well.
Thanks to Zenje for that recommendation, by the way. I just watched the film yesterday. And thanks to idolfree for opening up this discussion.
In the film, there were a couple of things I wasn't entirely sure were correct, but that is very likely my lack of knowledge rather than that of the interview subjects. Or maybe it was the way the material was integrated with other topics, possibly taking some piece of information out of a context I was familiar with. Overall, I thought the information covered much of what I learned in school and from later reading.
I was laughing when the film got to the point about electromagnetic forces and how we don't really touch anything, because I'd just mentioned that to you in my post--as the time when my perceptions began to get altered. But the idea is presented more clearly than I think I presented it to you, especially since some special effects are added to help illustrate things.
There will likely be questions you have that I can't answer, but I should be able to find someone to ask or find suitable reference material...so we can both learn together.
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Peace all.
Lote-Tree, I think pretty much everybody I knew was "into" Omar Khayyam in the seventies. My first introduction was when a guy recited the "a jug of wine, a loaf of bread, and thou...beside me singing in the wilderness" line. A good friend of mine still keeps The Rubaiyat on her bedside table so that she can read a passage or two each night before she goes to sleep.
Good chap -)
I think we all have the spirit of Omar Khayyam inside of us The Yearning for both of an Earthly and a Spiritual freedom?
What say you?The was a Door to which I found no Key;
There was a Veil past which I could not see
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There seemed - and then no more of Thee and Me.Perhaps we should all cultivate an attidue of Omar Khayyam?
What say you?Regards,
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Peace Tay,
Thanks for the wonderful link. I just finished watching the 3 hour Nova program about "the elegant universe". The concepts are mind boggling and exciting. Maybe Heaven and Hell exist in the other dimensions or parallel universes and maybe we will be able to communicate with their inhabitants using gravitons !! Time travel could be possible based on tachyons predicted by string theory.
Maybe that is how The God is sustaining the whole universe. His word vibrating the strings of energy, manifesting and orchestrating the whole universe.
We need to continue to ponder on the signs and meditate to get all the answers !! hmm trance
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Peace Sytalls,
Yes, "What the Bleep Do We Know" was a very good program for painting the picture of quantum physics. I also enjoyed the fact that these scientists are opening their minds to what would have been considered shady ideas. Even the mention of God in the program surprised me. I think things are getting better.
I would say, however, that "The Holographic Universe" is required reading for anyone interested in the subject. Michael Talbot does a wonderful job of breaking down complex concepts into understandable terms. Further, he touches on so many aspects of the human condition it is quite amazing to look back on when the book is complete. I mean, from near-death experiences, to the UFO phenomenon, to reincarnation, to psychic energy, he's found leaders in theses fields who have accepted the Holographic Theory as a possibility. And he ties these "mystical" realms of thought to hard science and the outcome is almost undeniable.
I know it's much too early for me to draw conclusions, but thus far, I would say that String Theory would probably be the 'nuts and bolts' of the Holographic Theory. At face value, I think they would partner nicely.
Another angle which I have not pursued yet despite my cousin's begging, is vibrational wellness and accoustics in general. There is much to be said about the power of sound. Heck, the Israelis are using accoustic canons as a non-lethal weapon to address crowd control. They've found the right frequency and the means to channel this frequency in a focused beam to shut down the person's ability to function. I think these 3 concepts may paint a a nice picture of reality.
I've maintained the Gibreel is the 'frequency' of revelation, the "voice of God", if you will, and we are all capable of tuning ourselves to this frequency, this wordless, 'truth' that so many have expereienced.
It is a very exciting time, perhaps equally as exciting as it is frightening.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Tanveer,
Thanks for the wonderful link.
You are quite welcome. The link was referred to me by David in the Movie Thread.
Maybe that is how The God is sustaining the whole universe. His word vibrating the strings of energy, manifesting and orchestrating the whole universe
That is certainly plausible. Deep down, I think science is always looking for God despite the "lack of proof". I mean, look how many people have faith in a mathematical equation that presumes the existence of something so small, it can never be tested nor witnessed, and yet, this is the glue that binds the heavens. Theories forming on top of theories. I don't think scientists realize how imaginative they are. It is wonderful to see.
We need to continue to ponder on the signs and meditate to get all the answers !!
Absolutely brother. Let no door remain closed. The more we open ourselves up, the more truth pours in.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace be upon you Tay,
Great site!!! Thank you for sharing, just what I needed.
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Good chap -)
I think we all have the spirit of Omar Khayyam inside of us The Yearning for both of an Earthly and a Spiritual freedom?
What say you?The was a Door to which I found no Key;
There was a Veil past which I could not see
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There seemed - and then no more of Thee and Me.Perhaps we should all cultivate an attidue of Omar Khayyam?
What say you?Regards,
There is certainly something to be said for finding unity. D I almost chose that passage instead of the other one, mainly because I very much like the sentiment expressed.
And not to mess up any warm fuzzy erasures of separation lines...but I don't quite pass the physical appearance test for "chap." shock lol
Peace.