-=[ Who are Bani Israel? ]=-
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Peace be upon you MMKhan,
Peace be upon you brother Kyle,
No, I do trust in physical prophets and I further add that all of us have the potential to reach that stage where we can "talk to the God", but its hard to get there, takes serious sacrifice. But regarding the message given to us, these "prophets" are given to us as character types. I do not follow the reasoning that the God gave us a message about some people we can never verify.
The stories are SYMBOLIC, not literal. These are EXAMPLES for us to follow, not just a story to be told. We have to figure out the symbolism, and if we go back to previous teachings, we find many of the same symbolism, therefore this reading does in fact confirm that which came before it.
Are you contradicting yourself? Please explain the bolded sentences.
I understand with your messege that we can reach upto the positions of the Prophets but it is really very difficult. Am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
If I am right, then we have to give a fire test to reach the position of Prophet Ibrahim. And we must have to born again that is also without father to reach the position of Prophet Eisa?
Its all very confusing for me at this time. Please rephrase your sentences if you don't mind. And if you feel that I understood it wrong.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you MMKhan,
Quote
No, I do trust in physical prophetsThe stories are SYMBOLIC, not literal.
Are you contradicting yourself? Please explain the bolded sentences.
I trust that physical man AND women have been on this earth
who have reached a level(maqam) where they could "talk to The God" WITHIN and could intuit the solutions to lifes problems. They would deliver the answers to others and would write the guidance down.This reading(quran) I trust to be one such reading. Regarding the method in which the guidance is given through these prophets, I do not take the stories as LITERAL, where there were Superhero like events happening that cannot be verified nor reproduced. Guidance is suppossed to GUIDE, not a story to be told at bedtime or to be watched on High Definition Television with popcorn. The Guidance comes from the SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, which we must all come to understand, so we can UNIFY the God's Message in the Earth. Whether Arabic or Non Arabic, it is a guide and healing to those who trust in it.
I understand with your messege that we can reach upto the positions of the Prophets but it is really very difficult. Am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes, you are correct. This is why they are our examples. An example is something you stive to emulate. Why would we be given an example of something we do not have the potential to become?
If I am right, then we have to give a fire test to reach the position of Prophet Ibrahim.
Correct D But you FIRST have to understand the SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. What is the fire that is being talked about? It is all of the wicked talk and actions of the rejector and hypocrites that comes to you when you walk and teach the maintained path of the knowlegable. When you bring the truth, they say "bring a reading other than this", they cannot bear the truth, so they ridicule you and some try to force you to change back to serving thier partners. Your family disowns you, your friends laugh at you. You become an outsider to the majority because you follow the God , not conjecture(blind belief). This is the "fire" that comes to you. But when you follow The God, to the maintained path that leads to PEACE, you are able to transcend the emotional/animal level and teh fire is "cool". You are not effected by outside conditions, you are in connection with your SOURCE WITHIN, ultimate PEACE.
And we must have to born again that is also without father to reach the position of Prophet Eisa?
Isa, the son of MAriam, is symbolic of the WILL of MAN, that is bron of the virgin Spirit/Mind. It is the CONCEPTION within that was impregnated by the God's Word, only after seperating yourself from tradition(Marium seperated from family). One must also be chaste because it is by learning how to ignore the cravings from the emotional level, you can gain control and rise above them, THIS is when the WILL is born, your ability to CHOOSE rather than imitate.
Its all very confusing for me at this time. Please rephrase your sentences if you don't mind. And if you feel that I understood it wrong.
I have nothing but patience when there is fruitful discussion. D
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Peace be upon you MMKhan,
Peace be upon you brother Kyle,
Quote
No, I do trust in physical prophetsThe stories are SYMBOLIC, not literal.
Are you contradicting yourself? Please explain the bolded sentences.
I trust that physical man AND women have been on this earth
who have reached a level(maqam) where they could "talk to The God" WITHIN and could intuit the solutions to lifes problems. They would deliver the answers to others and would write the guidance down.Women also?
This reading(quran) I trust to be one such reading. Regarding the method in which the guidance is given through these prophets, I do not take the stories as LITERAL, where there were Superhero like events happening that cannot be verified nor reproduced. Guidance is suppossed to GUIDE, not a story to be told at bedtime or to be watched on High Definition Television with popcorn. The Guidance comes from the SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE, which we must all come to understand, so we can UNIFY the God's Message in the Earth. Whether Arabic or Non Arabic, it is a guide and healing to those who trust in it.
Guidance is suppossed to GUIDE - Hmmm... You are really forcing me to think upon it. tempt
I understand with your messege that we can reach upto the positions of the Prophets but it is really very difficult. Am I right? Please correct me if I am wrong.
Yes, you are correct. This is why they are our examples. An example is something you stive to emulate. Why would we be given an example of something we do not have the potential to become?
Again, you are forced me to ponder on..... "An example is something you stive to emulate. Why would we be given an example of something we do not have the potential to become?" I think you are changing me without giving me chance to ponder upon rif
If I am right, then we have to give a fire test to reach the position of Prophet Ibrahim.
Correct But you FIRST have to understand the SYMBOLIC LANGUAGE. What is the fire that is being talked about? It is all of the wicked talk and actions of the rejector and hypocrites that comes to you when you walk and teach the maintained path of the knowlegable. When you bring the truth, they say "bring a reading other than this", they cannot bear the truth, so they ridicule you and some try to force you to change back to serving thier partners. Your family disowns you, your friends laugh at you. You become an outsider to the majority because you follow the God , not conjecture(blind belief). This is the "fire" that comes to you. But when you follow The God, to the maintained path that leads to PEACE, you are able to transcend the emotional/animal level and teh fire is "cool". You are not effected by outside conditions, you are in connection with your SOURCE WITHIN, ultimate PEACE.
Hmmm.. here I get chance... How can prove that Al-Quraan got a Symbolic Language and it is not Literal?
And we must have to born again that is also without father to reach the position of Prophet Eisa?
Isa, the son of MAriam, is symbolic of the WILL of MAN, that is bron of the virgin Spirit/Mind. It is the CONCEPTION within that was impregnated by the God's Word, only after seperating yourself from tradition(Marium seperated from family). One must also be chaste because it is by learning how to ignore the cravings from the emotional level, you can gain control and rise above them, THIS is when the WILL is born, your ability to CHOOSE rather than imitate.
brickwall
Its all very confusing for me at this time. Please rephrase your sentences if you don't mind. And if you feel that I understood it wrong.
I have nothing but patience when there is fruitful discussion.
Oh this is great to hear atleast.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Peace be upon you MMKhan,
Women also?
Yes, symbolic language also deals with male and female principle (yin and yang). The Message is described in the male reference because it is something that is to SENDING a seed to impregnate the virgin(pure, not filthy) MIND(Nafs is feminine).
We are dealing with two basic energies in life that we need to find the balance for, which is why "salaat", our METHOD OF HELP THROUGH TIME(patience needed), is maintained at DAWN and DUSK, the times when day and night merge.
But we must be scientists, we must gather knoledge about his universe and its laws(al kitaab), we must study the book as it should be studied, then these concepts like Male and Female principle will be of interest.
Let me ask you a question, why is it that following tradition is said to be following what are FATHERS followed? What about your mothers? Many people are raised without a father, only a mother, like Isa, son of mariam. wink
Its about the energy that is being dealt with, your tradition is also something SENT OUT to impregnate your mind/spirit. That is why we must GUARD our "salaat". We cannot allow the wrong seeds to be planted in our subconscious(mind/spirit).
Hmmm.. here I get chance... How can prove that Al-Quraan got a Symbolic Language and it is not Literal?
Fisrt, we have to take this reading out of the vacuum and put it in context of space and time. We are told to trust in what was revealed to us and those before us. We have to study other cultures before us, so we can verify the statetment "A confirmation of what came before you".
These symbolisms are very old, but they fit into the occurences of the symbols and they dont contradict.
What guidance comes from thinking that there was a man here on earth that could raise the dead back to life? Should we just think that the God will let our generation experience loss while those of a former time had a miracle worker? The God says His way NEVER CHANGES. At the very least we must approach these stories from a logical perspective, and the literal approaches dont add up to logic.
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Peace MMKhan,
Peace brother MMKhan,
Wa Alaikum Salaam Sister(?) Primanda,
sigh... I'm used to this but MMKhan, I am male. I know that my name can give the impression that I'm female... too late to get upset with my parents over it...
You said that 172 and 173 defines Bani Israil
172
Wa atayna Musa al-kitaba wa ja'alnahu hudan li Bani Isra-iila alla tattakhidzuu min duunii wakiilanLITERAL And We gave/brought Musa The Book, and We made it guidance to Bani Israil; that you do not take from other than Me a guardian/protector.
With the translation above, one more thing came into my mind. The book (Al-Kitaab) which was given to Prophet Moosa was MADE A GUIDANCE FOR BANI ISRAEL.
If I recall, Allah says,
"And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is Allah's judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers." 544
"We have sent down the Torah, in it is guidance and a light; the prophets who have surrendered judged with it for those who are Jews, as well as the Rabbis, and the Priests, for what they were entrusted of Allah's Scripture, and they were witness over. So do not fear the people but fear Me; and do not purchase with My revelations a cheap price. And whoever does not judge with what Allah has sent down, then these are the rejecters." 545
Please take a look at the bolded ones. And please let me know your understanding on how the link 172-3 and 544-45 works.
Nothing noteworthy in particular, it just supports the 172 definition of Bani Israil as 'those whom were given the Torah for guidance'
173 Dzurriyyata man hamalna ma'a Nuhin. Innahu kaana 'abdan syakuuran
LITERAL Descendants (of) whom We carried/loaded with Nuh. That he truly was a thankful/grateful worshipper/slave.
The problem is... not everyone living today are the descendants of those that was carried with Nuh, in my humble opinion. Why? Because I think the flood of Nuh was not global--Nuh saved believers from his people only, not the ancestors of everyone in the world. As in 970 where Nuh's people is mentioned alongside the 'Aad and Tsamud peoples.
I don't understand your stand here. 970 Also mentioned about Prophet Ibrahim... So? My understanding for the Nooh's flood was global. But no reference sorry.
970
Did not the information come to them about those from before them, Noah's people, and the Aad , and the Tsamud and Abraham's people, and owners of Madyan, and the overturned cities? Their messengers came to them with the evidences, so God was not to cause injustice to them, and but they were themselves causing injustice.My interpretation of that verse is that Nuh's people were considered 'one people among the others'.
Also, my Qur'anic references for my local flood position are vague too, I admit, therefore I look at the geological and archaeological of the earth. There are no evidence of a worldwide flood any time at the history/prehistory of the earth. However, geologists have found evidences of major floods around the Middle East at ancient times; these might be interpreted as the flood that drowned Nuh's people.
But you give an interesting insight... if your theory is correct, then the Bani Israil could include most Middle-Eastern peoples (Israelites, Arabs, Kurds, Armenians) as I think it is these peoples whose ancestors were affected by the flood.
Still, the fact that they are referred as 'Bani Israil' tend to give the impression that these people were descendants of a person called 'Israil'. The Bible said that Israil is Jacob (Ya'qub), son of Ishaq and grandson of Ibrahim, but as far as my own reading goes Ya'qub is never called Israil in the Qur'an. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Affected by flood? Is there any alive who were affected at the time of flood? I think all were finished.
Well it goes down to your interpretation of a global flood. I think the survivors, which were carried by Nuh, then became the ancestor of those peoples I mentioned.
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Peace MMKhan,
Peace be upon you BROTHER AP,
Peace brother MMKhan,
Wa Alaikum Salaam Sister(?) Primanda,sigh... I'm used to this but MMKhan, I am male. I know that my name can give the impression that I'm female... too late to get upset with my parents over it...
Oops! I am sorry brother.
Nothing noteworthy in particular, it just supports the 172 definition of Bani Israil as 'those whom were given the Torah for guidance'
No, what I was trying to point out is, if we are also Bani Israel, then is the Taurah a guidance for us?
970
Did not the information come to them about those from before them, Noah's people, and the Aad , and the Tsamud and Abraham's people, and owners of Madyan, and the overturned cities? Their messengers came to them with the evidences, so God was not to cause injustice to them, and but they were themselves causing injustice.My interpretation of that verse is that Nuh's people were considered 'one people among the others'.
If so, what is the relation with our discussion?
Also, my Qur'anic references for my local flood position are vague too, I admit, therefore I look at the geological and archaeological of the earth. There are no evidence of a worldwide flood any time at the history/prehistory of the earth. However, geologists have found evidences of major floods around the Middle East at ancient times; these might be interpreted as the flood that drowned Nuh's people.
But you give an interesting insight... if your theory is correct, then the Bani Israil could include most Middle-Eastern peoples (Israelites, Arabs, Kurds, Armenians) as I think it is these peoples whose ancestors were affected by the flood.
But it still has to confirm, who Bani Israels are?
Still, the fact that they are referred as 'Bani Israil' tend to give the impression that these people were descendants of a person called 'Israil'. The Bible said that Israil is Jacob (Ya'qub), son of Ishaq and grandson of Ibrahim, but as far as my own reading goes Ya'qub is never called Israil in the Qur'an. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
Affected by flood? Is there any alive who were affected at the time of flood? I think all were finished.
Well it goes down to your interpretation of a global flood. I think the survivors, which were carried by Nuh, then became the ancestor of those peoples I mentioned.
What I think is Allah has explained every thing in Al-Kitaab, so we may need to search more about it instead of searching in History or Bible. InshaAllah, we will surely find it in Al-Kitaab itself.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Still confusion arises. But Alhamdulillah, Allah has shown who are Bani Israel as in
"And We gave Moses the Scripture and We made it a guidance for the Children of Israel Do not believe in any besides Me." 172
"The progeny of those whom We carried with Noah, he was a thankful servant. " 173
Here I understand that people after those who were carried with Noah are the Bani Israel. Including us.
Please correct me if you find me wrong.
Regards,
MMKhan
Salam MMKhan,
first of all i really like your posts.
I have a question, I had the same thoughts as u about bani israel, but what are your thoughts about 1958? -
Salam MMKhan,
first of all i really like your posts.
I have a question, I had the same thoughts as u about bani israel, but what are your thoughts about 1958?Salaam brother Bender and welcome welcome
Thank you for your nice words. Do you know you have dig out atleast 5 year old thread. )
About 1958 I understand something different. 'Israel' is mentioned separately and after Ibrahim (AS), if 'bani Israel' is referring to the sons of 'Israel' mentioned in 1958 then 173-4 is saying something else.
I still don't understand the usage of 'waw with tashdeed' between Prophet Noah (AS) and Prophet Ibrahim (AS), it means that is a relation between those two.
Still I need to look at other relating aayats brother to understand it better.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam Brother Mohammed
Salaam brother Bender and welcome welcome
thank you
Thank you for your nice words. Do you know you have dig out atleast 5 year old thread. )
Yes I know that, I?m trying to read as much as I can from the old threads, that interest me. So don?t be surprised if u see more questions or comments from the older threads.
About 1958 I understand something different. 'Israel' is mentioned separately and after Ibrahim (AS), if 'bani Israel' is referring to the sons of 'Israel' mentioned in 1958 then 173-4 is saying something else.
Interesting that u translate bani, with sons instead of children here. Is this a new understanding or do u simply mean children? Also do u mean with 173-4 172-3 or do u really mean 173-4 if you mean 173-4 then I don?t understand what u mean.
I?m almost sure that 173 is referring to the bani Israel in 172, I mean what else is it referring to.
I have a problem with reading 1958 I don?t know how to read it.
First I give the Pickthall translation of 1958
These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping.Here the translation from Pickthall for the verses 172/3
(2) We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the children of Israel, saying Choose no guardian beside Me. (3) The seed of those whom We carried along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.There are some differences between this. First note that in 1958 is talking about Israel and 172 is talking about children of Israel. The second thing is in 1958 it says ?those whom We carried with Noah? and in 173 ?The seed of those whom We carried along with Noah?.
My question is now how to read 1958? do we have to read it like this
?Of the seed of Adam. And of those whom We carried with Noah. And of the seed of Abraham. And Israel?.
Or do we have to read it like this
?Of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED OF) those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (OF THE SEED OF) Israelor some other way maybe.
What do u think? Or anyone else.
I still don't understand the usage of 'waw with tashdeed' between Prophet Noah (AS) and Prophet Ibrahim (AS), it means that is a relation between those two.
Still I need to look at other relating aayats brother to understand it better.
This is very interesting, I searched in a lot of online AlQurans and in all my AlQurans at home I have only 1 AlQuran with the tashdeed, but it?s not in the place where you say it is. I have the waw with tashdeed between nuh and the seed of Ibrahim .
if the waw with tasjeed is on the place were it is in my AlQuran at home then according to you there is a relationship between
(the seed of Adam. And of those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham. And Israel)
Or only relationship between
(those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)both cases are interesting
thank you for your time,
salaam brother -
Salaam bro,
Interesting that u translate bani, with sons instead of children here. Is this a new understanding or do u simply mean children? Also do u mean with 173-4 172-3 or do u really mean 173-4 if you mean 173-4 then I don?t understand what u mean.
Sorry, it was a typo... I mean 172-3
Yes brother 'bani' means 'son' and 'banaat' means 'daughter', you will find several examples for the same. For example 37153 below
37153
37153 Has He chosen daughters over sons?I?m almost sure that 173 is referring to the bani Israel in 172, I mean what else is it referring to.
Me too.
I have a problem with reading 1958 I don?t know how to read it.
First I give the Pickthall translation of 1958
These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping.Here the translation from Pickthall for the verses 172/3
(2) We gave unto Moses the Scripture, and We appointed it a guidance for the children of Israel, saying Choose no guardian beside Me. (3) The seed of those whom We carried along with Noah. Lo! he was a grateful slave.There are some differences between this. First note that in 1958 is talking about Israel and 172 is talking about children of Israel. The second thing is in 1958 it says ?those whom We carried with Noah? and in 173 ?The seed of those whom We carried along with Noah?.
You added the word "along" in the above highlighted part, where in Arabic both sentences are same i.e., "...man hamalna ma'a Noah...". The word used "mimman" in 1958 is an add up of two words "min + man = mimman".
"Min" = from of, from among
"Man" = who, whoever, whomPlease note that there are two types of "min" used in 1958. One is "min" and other one is "mina", both means differently as follows
Min = from of, from among
Mina = fromMy question is now how to read 1958? do we have to read it like this
?Of the seed of Adam. And of those whom We carried with Noah. And of the seed of Abraham. And Israel?.
Or do we have to read it like this
?Of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED OF) those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (OF THE SEED OF) IsraelI will try to show you how I use it, inshaAllah .
1958
1958 These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping.
With changes
1958 Those were they unto whom Allah showed favour from the prophets, from of the seed of Adam. AND from of those whom We carried with Noah, and from of the seed of Ibraheem. And Israel. And from of those whom We guided and We chose, when the aayaats of AlRahmaan were recited on them, they fell down, prostrating and weeping.
I tried to do it as per my best knowledge, if it seems not fitting properly in English, please replace "from of" with "from among" in the above.
This is very interesting, I searched in a lot of online AlQurans and in all my AlQurans at home I have only 1 AlQuran with the tashdeed, but it?s not in the place where you say it is. I have the waw with tashdeed between nuh and the seed of Ibrahim .
I don't understand why people are removing tashdeed from waws in new prints. May Allah help us.
Brother that is the same place where I have pointed but it was not clear enough, sorry for that.
1958
Waw with tashdeed used twice in the above aayat.
if the waw with tasjeed is on the place were it is in my AlQuran at home then according to you there is a relationship between
(the seed of Adam. And of those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham. And Israel)
Or only relationship between
(those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)There is only a relation between "...those whom We carried with Noah, and from of the seed of Ibraheem..."
And also in prostrating and weeping.
The waw between "from of the seed of Ibraheem. And Israel" is a separating waw.
May Allah guide us all to His true path and correct and forgive us if we make mistakes pr
Mohammed M Khan -
PLEASE!!! be careful between the 2 words
Bani--->
Awlad--->
Children means which means the child who was BORN from this dad.
Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is notIsrael is not Jacoub...why? because the Qur'an mentioned jacoub and mentioned Israel each in different places...then why did you say they are both the same man??? from sunna? history? any book outside the quran? from Judaism???
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PLEASE!!! be careful between the 2 words
Bani--->
Awlad--->
Children means which means the child who was BORN by this dad.
Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is notWe know direct inheritors 411 instructs you Allah in your children/awldikum
Are these students or are they lineal descendants, i.e. blood relatives?
(2401) yban O Children
(2471) yban O Children
(2834) ban (from the) Children
(21221) yban O Children
(21324) banhi (upon) his sons
(21326) ybaniyya O my sons
(213310) libanhi to his sons
(22112) ban (the) Children
(22466) ban (the) Children
(3147) wal-banna and sons
(3493) ban (the) Children
(3935) liban for (the) Children
(5125) ban (from the) Children
(5326) ban (the) Children
(5704) ban (from the) Children
(57213) yban O Children
(5785) ban (the) Children
(511049) ban (the) Children
(6100 banna sons
(7261) yban O Children
(7271) yban O Children
(7311) yban O Children
(7351) yban O Children
(710517) ban (the) Children
(713421) ban (the) Children
(713717) ban (the) Children
(71382) biban (the) Children
(71725) ban (the) Children
(10902) biban (the) Children
(10933) ban (the) Children
(114213) ybunayya O my son
(1252) ybunayya O my son
(12672) ybaniyya O my sons
(12871) ybaniyya O my sons
(143510) wabaniyya and my sons
(167211) banna sons
(1726) liban for the Children
(1743) ban (the) Children
(176 wabanna and sons
(17403) bil-banna sons
(17703) ban (the) children of Adam
(18462) wal-banna and children
(23557) wabanna and children
(243137) ban sons
(243140) ban sons
(26886) banna sons
(261333) wabanna and children
(26197 ban (of the) Children
(27766) ban (the) Children
(31137) ybunayya O my son
(31161) ybunayya O my son
(31171) ybunayya O my son
(36604) yban O Children of Adam
(371026) ybunayya O my son
(371495) l-banna (are) sons
(371534) l-banna sons
(43167) bil-banna sons
(52395) l-banna (are) sons
(6166) yban O Children
(611425) ban Children
(68145) wabanna and children
(70119) bibanhi by his children
(71123) wabanna and children
(74131) wabanna And children
(80362) wabanhi and his children -
PLEASE!!! be careful between the 2 words
Bani--->
Awlad--->
Children means which means the child who was BORN from this dad.
Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is notSalaam,
Thanks for clarifying it.
I know this, by Allah's grace I am aware of it, very recently Allah has shown me this difference, Alhamdulillah.
I was stuck on "bani Aadam" how is it possible to refer directly in AlQuraan by saying "ya bani Aadam", when I researched a little and Allah has shown me the difference between bani and walad.
But as S29 said, almost all Nabiyyeen were having banis not walads, what do you think?
May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam bro,
Yes brother 'bani' means 'son' and 'banaat' means 'daughter', you will find several examples for the same. For example 37153 below
37153
37153 Has He chosen daughters over sons?Salaam brother,
after the post of SeekingYou where he says ?Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is not?
You said in response to him that he is right.
It?s a bit confusing, in what is he right? U mean that he is right by his defintion of 'Bani' or something else? I have searched some examples but I?m not yet at a point to give a proper definition, I have to study it a bit more.You added the word "along" in the above highlighted part,
Not me but Pickthall, I said that they are Pickthall translations. Actually I deleted some things from the Pickthall translation, I deleted the things he has in brackets, that is one thing I know for sure that it?s something added by the translator. I?m yet not knowledgeable enough in Arabic and in English to give my own translations. So forgive me if I quote pickthall or some other translator. InsjaAllah in the future I can give my own translations.
I tried to do it as per my best knowledge, if it seems not fitting properly in English, please replace "from of" with "from among" in the above.
Thank You for you effort. But I still have a question. From your translation I understand that you don?t understand it as ??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? In this particular verse I have no objections about this understanding, but if you take for example verse 8719 . How do you understand this verse?
Pickthall translation The Books of Abraham and Moses.
It?s now difficult to follow the same logic as in how you proposed it for 1953. You have to read it then as The Books of Ibrahim. And Moses.
What ?And Moses?? It doesn't make sense to me. It looks to me that we have to understand 8719 as ?The Books of Ibrahim. And the Books of Moses?.
If we use the same logic for 1958 then I think we have to understand it as
??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? instead of ??the seed of Ibrahim. And Israel??.
I hope u understand what I mean, I look forward for your input.
probably i missing some detail.By the way I saw that in your Arabic text the waw has a tashdeed, did u put it yourself or is there website were it has this tasjdeed? If so please give me a link. I use for my research this site www.tanzil.info maybe u know this site all ready. If not, then I really can recommend it to you. It has a very nice search function, u can search on root of the words and also exact word(s). It also has a lot of translations, but the searchfunction is why i'm addicted to that site, really helpfull.
There is only a relation between "...those whom We carried with Noah, and from of the seed of Ibraheem..."
And also in prostrating and weeping.
If u are right and ?waw with tashdeed? is indeed a relating waw then this is very interesting. May I ask you, how u came to this conclusion? Is this just Arabic grammar or is this from studying the verses in TheQuran?
Thanks brother for your effort
Salaam,
Bender -
after the post of SeekingYou where he says ?Bani means a man/kid/youth who is TAUGHT by some one...this one is not?
You said in response to him that he is right.
It?s a bit confusing, in what is he right? U mean that he is right by his defintion of 'Bani' or something else? I have searched some examples but I?m not yet at a point to give a proper definition, I have to study it a bit more.I was saying that there is a difference between 'walad' and 'bani' they both are not same. As I question at the end of my post that I am still in confusion why all the Nabiyyeen were having banis not walad.
Anyways, that is another topic inshaAllah we will discuss it if you like in other thread.
Thank You for you effort. But I still have a question. From your translation I understand that you don?t understand it as ??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? In this particular verse I have no objections about this understanding, but if you take for example verse 8719 . How do you understand this verse?
Pickthall translation The Books of Abraham and Moses.
It?s now difficult to follow the same logic as in how you proposed it for 1953. You have to read it then as The Books of Ibrahim. And Moses.
What ?And Moses?? It doesn't make sense to me. It looks to me that we have to understand 8719 as ?The Books of Ibrahim. And the Books of Moses?.
If we use the same logic for 1958 then I think we have to understand it as
??the seed of Ibrahim. And the seed of Israel?? instead of ??the seed of Ibrahim. And Israel??.
I hope u understand what I mean, I look forward for your input.
probably i missing some detail.I agree with you on this.
Firstly you should know that I am not well versed in Arabic grammar but in most of the cases you can understand that aayat by looking at its pattern. Each aayat has its own pattern and design. Lets take for example 459
459
459 O you who believe, obey Allah and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to Allah and His messenger if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.
In the above aayat if you notice 'atee-i' is missing for 'oolil amri minkum' . But this aayat is always wrongly used by adding OBEY to those in authority among you.
The pattern explains it well and in the same way we can understand 1958 as follows
1958
1958 These are they unto whom Allah showed favour from among the prophets, of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried (in the ship) with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and from among those whom We guided and chose. When the revelations of the Beneficent were recited unto them, they fell down, adoring and weeping.
It has to be taken as you said ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? because of the pattern of this aayat.
Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel.
By the way I saw that in your Arabic text the waw has a tashdeed, did u put it yourself or is there website were it has this tasjdeed? If so please give me a link. I use for my research this site www.tanzil.info maybe u know this site all ready. If not, then I really can recommend it to you. It has a very nice search function, u can search on root of the words and also exact word(s). It also has a lot of translations, but the searchfunction is why i'm addicted to that site, really helpfull.
Thank you brother for the site www.tanzil.info, I am already know that site. I am using an application called "Quran With Tafseer" vol.1.0 In it is a text with tashdeed. I downloaded it long time back, if you want inshaAllah I will search and let you know where to downloaded it from.
If u are right and ?waw with tashdeed? is indeed a relating waw then this is very interesting. May I ask you, how u came to this conclusion? Is this just Arabic grammar or is this from studying the verses in TheQuran?
I think it has nothing to do with Arabic grammar that is the reason they are not using tashdeed in most of the text of AlQuraan. Allah has shown me this by studying AlQuraan.
May Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
I was saying that there is a difference between 'walad' and 'bani' they both are not same. As I question at the end of my post that I am still in confusion why all the Nabiyyeen were having banis not walad.
Anyways, that is another topic inshaAllah we will discuss it if you like in other thread.
salaam brother
Sure, if you want to open a new topic about this then I?m all ears. Sounds interesting and I haven?t noticed this before. U have to give me a couple of days to read on it a bit.
I will respond insjaAllah tomorrow or Friday on the rest of the post.
-
Firstly you should know that I am not well versed in Arabic grammar but in most of the cases you can understand that aayat by looking at its pattern. Each aayat has its own pattern and design. Lets take for example 459
Salaam brother,
I believe you are right. It would be great if we could classify the patterns and design. I think if we could do this then it makes understanding of the verses really easy. I know that this sounds like reinventing the wheel because Arabic grammar all ready exist, but I have the feeling that some Arabic grammar rules are contradicting the ?grammar? of The Quran.
I agree that in 459 you can?t add ?Obey? to ?those in authority among you?. The only problem is that I still don?t have a general rule how to recognize such patterns. I?m almost sure that there is some general rule for this. May Allah increase our knowledge.
It has to be taken as you said ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? because of the pattern of this aayat.
IF it has to be taken as ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? AND IF the waw with tasjdeed is a relating waw THEN there is a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel).
Thus not only a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel.
Yes, thank you for pointing this out.
A little detail, in the aya it is said the anbiya on whom Allah showed His favor, I think u meant that too.
As u surely have noticed, from ayaat 1 till 58 we are said to remember certain persons an in aya 58 it is said that they are the ones from the anbiya on whom Allah had showed his favor from the seed of ?.etc.
I think Ibrahim was surely a nabi, he is mentioned in ayaat 1941 and is called a nabi, thus he certainly was a nabi. He is not included in 1958 in ?the seed of Ibrahim? as u pointed out, but I think he is included in ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah?.Now I have a couple of questions
- Can we conclude that Meryem was also a nabi? I think that i read somewhere in The Quran something like there are only male rasoels or only male nabi's. I tried to find this ayaat yesterday but i couldn't find it, maybe u know this ayaat or someone else ofcourse. Or maybe it's a hadith that's still in my head )
- What about Noah? Till yesterday I always thought that he was a nabi, but now I don?t think so. Do you think he is a nabi?
- IF we have to read as ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah? AND not as ?of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED) of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN who from the anbiya from ayaat 1 till 58 where with Noah on the boat???
I am using an application called "Quran With Tafseer" vol.1.0 In it is a text with tashdeed. I downloaded it long time back, if you want inshaAllah I will search and let you know where to downloaded it from.
I have googled for it but couldn?t find anything. How big is the application? If it?s under 25 mb then u could sent it to me via mail if you want. Or if you or someone else reading this have a copy of The Quran with the ?waw with tasjdeed? in Word then I really like to have it, you can send it to me via mail. Thanks in advance and may Allah bless you.
I think it has nothing to do with Arabic grammar that is the reason they are not using tashdeed in most of the text of AlQuraan. Allah has shown me this by studying AlQuraan.
Brother, I really want to thank you for your observation about ?the waw with tashdeed?. I?m convinced that it has a different meaning then ?the waw without tasjdeed?. I can?t say at this moment what the difference is or if it is indeed a relating waw as you think, but it?s definitely different.
Yesterday I was studying 1958 and as always I was using a lot the search function of the tanzil site. There were 2 ayaats that came across during my searches which where in my eyes strange. Then I remembered your comment about the waw with tasjdeed and I was so convinced that there had to be a tasjdeed on 2 waw?s. I don?t even know why, but my feeling said it had to be, because that was the only explanation I had for this 2 ayaats. Thus I went downstairs and opened my only exemplar of The Quran wich has this tasjdeeds and subhanaAllah there were indeed the 2 tasjdeeds on exactly the waw?s that I had predicted. I still have no clue what this waw with tasjdeed really means or does but if we can find this out then it would be a big help in understanding ayaat?s like 1958. I think that without the tasjdeed on the waw in aya 1958, there is a contradiction or something really weird going on in that ayaat. That?s the reason I always had difficulty with this ayaat. I still don?t understand it good but at least now I know that there is something that I first have to figure out.
-
Salaam brother Bender,
Sorry for keeping at hold for long. May Allah forgive me.
I believe you are right. It would be great if we could classify the patterns and design. I think if we could do this then it makes understanding of the verses really easy. I know that this sounds like reinventing the wheel because Arabic grammar all ready exist, but I have the feeling that some Arabic grammar rules are contradicting the ?grammar? of The Quran.
Patterns and designs of the aayaats can be noticed by comparing with other aayaats. I don't think it is possible for us to do anything in regards to same. I believe that there are many veils in front of our eyes, when Allah decided to show us something from AlQuraan then He will take off that particular veil from our eyes and here that thing can easily be seen sharp clear.
And 'yes' I strongly agree with you that AlQuraan is not 100% go with Arabic grammar. I would like to add that AlQuraan has its own pattern and design PLUS it own Arabic grammar.
I agree that in 459 you can?t add ?Obey? to ?those in authority among you?. The only problem is that I still don?t have a general rule how to recognize such patterns. I?m almost sure that there is some general rule for this. May Allah increase our knowledge.
brother that aayat itself clarifies it. There will be two ways to right this aayat as follows
459
Please note that highlighted 'ati'oo' is missing in the below sentence.
You can see similar this pattern in 3132
3132
'ati'oo' before the word 'alRasool' is missing.
IF it has to be taken as ??seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel?? AND IF the waw with tasjdeed is a relating waw THEN there is a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Ibrahim. And seed of Israel).
Thus not only a relationship between (those whom We carried with Noah) AND (the seed of Abraham)I think it is the other way. There are two different points.
1- Because of the waw with tashdeed it has a relation between 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' AND 'from seed of Ibrahim'.
2- As per the pattern there is only relation between 'from seed of Ibrahim' and 'Israel'.
Thus it is like "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Yes, thank you for pointing this out.
A little detail, in the aya it is said the anbiya on whom Allah showed His favor, I think u meant that too.
As u surely have noticed, from ayaat 1 till 58 we are said to remember certain persons an in aya 58 it is said that they are the ones from the anbiya on whom Allah had showed his favor from the seed of ?.etc.Yes brother only to anmbiya but as I said earlier
"Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel."1954 is not referring to Adam, Noah, Ibrahim and Israel.
As you said it might be referring to those mentioned from aayat 1-57 in the same sura, i.e.,
"Zachariyya" - 192
"Yahya" - 197, 1912
"Marium" - 1916
"Eisa" - 1934
"Ibrahim" - 1941, 1946
"Is-haaq" - 1949
"Ya'qoob" - 1949
"Moosa" - 1951
"Haroon" - 1953
"Ismail" - 1954
"Idrees" - 1956In addition 1958 starts with "Ulaaika allazeena " referring to the anmbiyas used as above.
I think Ibrahim was surely a nabi, he is mentioned in ayaat 1941 and is called a nabi, thus he certainly was a nabi. He is not included in 1958 in ?the seed of Ibrahim? as u pointed out, but I think he is included in ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah?.
Yes I think you are right that Ibrahim is included in 'from among seed of Adam' AND is used after this, so 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' is not in relation as you said.
Now I have a couple of questions
- Can we conclude that Meryem was also a nabi? I think that i read somewhere in The Quran something like there are only male rasoels or only male nabi's. I tried to find this ayaat yesterday but i couldn't find it, maybe u know this ayaat or someone else ofcourse. Or maybe it's a hadith that's still in my head )
I don't think Marium is Nabi.
You can find the list of Nabis in 683-87, It is declared in 689.
- What about Noah? Till yesterday I always thought that he was a nabi, but now I don?t think so. Do you think he is a nabi?
Yes ofcourse he is a Nabi, but why do you thing so, please let me know. He is also included in the list of 683-87.
- IF we have to read as ?of the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah? AND not as ?of the seed of Adam and of (THE SEED) of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN who from the anbiya from ayaat 1 till 58 where with Noah on the boat???
Interesting point! I cannot answer for this now , may Allah increase us in knowledge.
I have googled for it but couldn?t find anything. How big is the application? If it?s under 25 mb then u could sent it to me via mail if you want. Or if you or someone else reading this have a copy of The Quran with the ?waw with tasjdeed? in Word then I really like to have it, you can send it to me via mail. Thanks in advance and may Allah bless you.
Brother the application size 56.5 MB, inshaAllah I will try to find some site where I can upload it if possible or try to find the downloadable file for you.
Brother, I really want to thank you for your observation about ?the waw with tashdeed?. I?m convinced that it has a different meaning then ?the waw without tasjdeed?. I can?t say at this moment what the difference is or if it is indeed a relating waw as you think, but it?s definitely different.
Praise Allah brother, He is the One who guide us. We have to be thankful to Him for His guidance pr
Yesterday I was studying 1958 and as always I was using a lot the search function of the tanzil site. There were 2 ayaats that came across during my searches which where in my eyes strange. Then I remembered your comment about the waw with tasjdeed and I was so convinced that there had to be a tasjdeed on 2 waw?s. I don?t even know why, but my feeling said it had to be, because that was the only explanation I had for this 2 ayaats. Thus I went downstairs and opened my only exemplar of The Quran wich has this tasjdeeds and subhanaAllah there were indeed the 2 tasjdeeds on exactly the waw?s that I had predicted. I still have no clue what this waw with tasjdeed really means or does but if we can find this out then it would be a big help in understanding ayaat?s like 1958. I think that without the tasjdeed on the waw in aya 1958, there is a contradiction or something really weird going on in that ayaat. That?s the reason I always had difficulty with this ayaat. I still don?t understand it good but at least now I know that there is something that I first have to figure out.
MashaAllah! May Allah be praised. I am really very happy to know your prediction.
I seek knowledge and guidance in Allah for all of us, may Allah guide us all to His true path pr
Mohammed M. Khan -
Salaam brother Bender,
Sorry for keeping at hold for long. May Allah forgive me.
Salaam brother,
No problem with me, I? am also a little bit slow with answering so we are even now handshake
Patterns and designs of the aayaats can be noticed by comparing with other aayaats. I don't think it is possible for us to do anything in regards to same.
I believe that it is certainly possible, it?s only very time consuming.
I believe that there are many veils in front of our eyes, when Allah decided to show us something from AlQuraan then He will take off that particular veil from our eyes and here that thing can easily be seen sharp clear.
Yup it?s always nice revelation when that happens. InsjaAllah Allah will take many many veils from our eyes.
I think it is the other way. There are two different points.
1- Because of the waw with tashdeed it has a relation between 'from among those whom We carried with Noah' AND 'from seed of Ibrahim'.
2- As per the pattern there is only relation between 'from seed of Ibrahim' and 'Israel'.
Thus it is like "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
I don?t know if I understood correctly. Could you please give in the next sentence colors to the parts that you think are relating "...and from among those whom We carried with Noah AND from seed of Ibrahim and Israel..."
Please give the same color to the parts you think have a relationship.Yes brother only to anmbiya but as I said earlier
"Please note that "Adam", "Noah" and "Ibrahim" is not included in those whom Allah showed His favour in the above aayat. Seed of Adam , from those who were carried with Noah , then seed of Ibrahim . In this way it is not Israel but seed of Israel."1954 is not referring to Adam, Noah, Ibrahim and Israel.
As you said it might be referring to those mentioned from aayat 1-57 in the same sura, i.e.,
"Zachariyya" - 192
"Yahya" - 197, 1912
"Marium" - 1916
"Eisa" - 1934
"Ibrahim" - 1941, 1946
"Is-haaq" - 1949
"Ya'qoob" - 1949
"Moosa" - 1951
"Haroon" - 1953
"Ismail" - 1954
"Idrees" - 1956Hmmm? why do you think Meryem was not a nabi if 1958 is referring to the anbiyas mentioned in the verses 191-57?
Also note verse 2191-92 it is said that she and her son belong to same umma as the persons mentioned in the verses 2148-91 Musa, Haroen, Ibrahim, Ishaaq, Yaqoob, Lut, Nuh, Dawoed, Sulaymen, Ayuub, Ismail, Idries, Zol-Kifl Zonnoen, Zachariya and she who kept her ?fawzj? and her son (I assume Meryem and Isa, who else???).
What umma is meant in 1292? I think the umma of the anbiya.
Maybe this discussion belongs in the other thread, the thread A WOMAN AS A MESSENGER.Yes ofcourse he is a Nabi, but why do you thing so, please let me know. He is also included in the list of 683-87.
Yes you are right, I only did a quick research on him and missed a couple of verses which indicates that he was indeed a nabi. The next day after I wrote that, I all ready saw that I was wrong -, may Allah increase us in knowledge.
Please note also this verse 2537
Nuh was not the only rasuul to his people, there were other rasuuls with him.Also see the following from chapter 37
78
79
80
81
82Could Ibrahim be one of the anbiya and rusoels with Nuh hmm
Brother the application size 56.5 MB, inshaAllah I will try to find some site where I can upload it if possible or try to find the downloadable file for you.
Thanks for offering, but it?s to much trouble for you. I have found this site http//www.searchtruth.com/quran_reading/quran.html
The only problem is that you can?t copy paste from this site. The waw with tasjdeed doesn?t have a tasjdeed on this site but it?s green.Praise Allah brother, He is the One who guide us. We have to be thankful to Him for His guidance pr
Of course Alhamd is only for Allah but you brother get my thanks and my salaam )
MashaAllah! May Allah be praised. I am really very happy to know your prediction. D
I have a really bad memory, I don't remember the ayaats anymore (
Another question Do you think Israel was a person with Nuh on the boat or Israel were the ones with Nuh on the boat?
I myself think that he was not a person but the people with Nuh on the boat.If I understand correct then this part of 1958 ??the seed of Adam and of those whom We carried with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel?
Can be read as
??the seed of Adam and ISRAEL, and of the seed of Abraham and (seed of) Israel? If we replace ?those whom We carried with Noah? with ?Israel?. This makes sense to me and is not contradicting 172-3I hope you understand why I have replaced "Israel" with ?those whom We carried with Noah?. IF according to 172-3 "Bani Israel" are "The seed of those whom We carried with Noah? THEN "Israel" must be "those whom We carried with Noah"
The only ?problem? left is ayaat 393
It looks like Israel is in this ayaat a person, but I think it?s is here also ?those whom we carried with Nuh? only it is used as a collective (in the grammar I mean), and that?s why in my opinion it looks like it is a person.What do you think? If in Arabic Quran a collective is used the same way as a singular then I think we have solved the problem. And there for ?Israel? is NOT Jacob but Those who were with Nuh on the boat AND ?Bani Israel? are not the Jews but all the people of the world. And this makes in my opinion really sense if we read all the ayaats were Bani Israel are mentioned in The Quran.
Please correct me were you feel that I' am wrong.
Thanks for your time again brother, may Allah increase our knowledge and lead us to the siraat almustakeem.
salaam,
Bender