Sabians
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Who do you think they were? Star-worshippers? If they are, why did Allah promise to take the good ones among them into His Garden? Isn't it a shirk to worship to celestial bodies? hmm
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Salaamun alaikum born_again,
The original Sabians had a monotheistic faith (deen-e-Ibrahim or islam lillah) and followed The Zaboor, the word of The God sent to prophet David. The Harranians were the ones who worshipped the planets and the stars and sacrificed to these deities and claimed the name Sabian around 9th century AD in order to avoid islamic persecution. The original true Sabians had nothing to do with idol worship. Hence the confusion.
Please see the following link for details
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians
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Bismillah Alrahman Alrahim,
Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh
This Islam Q&A site explanation (http//63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&ds=qa&lv=browse&QR=49048&dgn=4) I can not find much argument with at all, but do not believe everything you read elsewhere like for example Wikipedia site above. We have suffered a lot as a community since the Attack on Afghanistan (There was a great Sabi teacher in Herat under state protection called Abu Yahyah, but we have not heard from him since America invaded), also The infrastructure in Iraq has been totally disabled. Only a few of us are still in loose contact with each other one sabi in Australia one in America, one in India and me in the UK now.
We call ourselves Saabi
ah Hunafaand we consider ourselves to be of Ibreem/a.k.a.Ibraheem (SAW)'s community. There is a tradition that Abram (SAW)'s father (we call him Terah) was a polytheist, but those who followed Ibreem (SAW) away from polytheism became the Saabiah Hunafa. I am not an Alim by any means, but I can not say that I have ever heard of a polytheistic Sabi as long as I have been a Sabi (which is more than 11 years). We do consider that Muhammad (SAW) was a Haneef just like Ibreem and the rest of us, and we do believe the noble Quran is a revealed book.There are 6 fundamentals all Sabieen must follow, and these are No idolatry, No lewdity, No blasphemy, No killing, No Stealing, and No Treifah (i.e. Haram food), but there is also one all important positive command and that is to support the establishment of and then submit to a system of Din which enforces (this is my choice of word) these other six fundamentals until such time, should it come around, that this system fails to satisfy this duty, at which point we should strive to re-establish a system of Din which does.
The 7 principles all together constitute the religion that the first Rasool Prophet Nooh (SAW) brought to the world which was forgotten by the world after Yusuf (SAW) until it was revealed again to Moosa (SAW) at mount Sinai for the whole world, through Moosa (SAW and his brother Haroon (SAW) and Moosa's father in law Shuaib (SAW). The religion of Nooh has been reiterated by every prophet since Moosa (SAW). We did not know what the name of the religion was until it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
So why are Sabieen not within the fold of islam? Belief in the prophets (SAW) is not compulsory, and must be based upon an individual's own reasoning or personal experience but I was told that salvation can not really be attained without coming to such a belief. Also we believe that the greatest leader the world will ever know is `Isa Al-Maseeh ibn Maryim. We call Prophet Muhammad (SAW) by the name Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) We do not believe that there ere any more revealed books after The Quran, but do not believe that Wahy has ceased and use the the word mahomet as a title for all who have wahy (which we call ehmet). Of course if someone claims to have Wahy and what they say is not in perfect harmony with what has already been revealed in the previous scriptures, then even if what that person predicts does indeed come to pass, it is irrelevant and that person should be disregarded as a mad, wicked or lying false prophet.
There is a small page on the internet called http//www.sebomenoi.com which has a little more information about the Sabieen which is trustworthy. However there is lots of false information about Sabieen out there the biggest lie being that the the YaziDi and the Mandaean Nasaraeans are Sabians which is a false lie.
The group called the YaziDi follow the same religion that Ibreem's father Terach followed. These are the Harranians. They sometimes try to call themselves Sabians too, but they are certainly not. They are in fact the true and original "Notzrim" or "Watchmen" followers of the fallen angel called ShemYaza. Just like the YaziDi, Mandaeans are gnostics (while in contrast true sabieen do not claim any special knowledge) who do not believe in `Isa (SAW) nor Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) and even if they began as Sabieen their false teachers have put a wall around themselves and have tried to mislead people into a cult. The distinguishing factor in both religions, as well as all religions that derive from them, is that they have degrees of initiation through which their acolytes pass until they reach the Gnosis at the top that they follow ShemYaza.
To a certain extent it could be said that these two groups are the Saabi
ah mushrikoon, spoken about by the scholars but to allow them to use the name Sabi for themselves at all is to be too liberal. It is better that they be converted to islam than remain in such a cult. They can not call themselves Saabiah Hunafa`.The only reason Saabi
ah Hunafaknow about these things is because Ibreem (SAW) and his followers came from them and knew their religion, so the inside of their religion is exposed to us. The Prophet Abu Al-Qasim (SAW) knew all this about them very well indeed.We do believe that we descend from Cain, and we do not try to justify ourselves as descended from Seth. We are repentant and can not be held accountable for the sins of our ancestors. It is wrong for the Saabi`ah mushrikoon to say that they descend from Seth and deny the fact that their ancestor murdered righteous Abel. All we can do is repent from this ancestry. This is where the Christians got their doctrine of original sin from, but they have gone too far in misunderstanding.
I hope this helps
Assalaamu aleikum warahmatullah wabarakhatuh -
Peace,
Welcome, and please tell more. I will go to the site to check. Thank you for revealing something that was a mystery for a lot of people. i would be very interrested to know more.
wa-salaam Arnold
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Peace be upon you,
What is the root meaning of "sabian"?
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Peace,
Idolfree is this true???
Quote from the site given by Sabi
Fred Hamori and others hosted by another American gentleman called Mr Kevin Brooks -though neither of these men knew about this. By the end of the 90s Sabis were involved in building a website called www.free-minds.org, but by 2002 it had become overrun by muslim "free-thinkers" and "19er" shi'ites (which is why that site went the way it did) and thus needed to disassociate with it. Thanks to the war in Iraq, Sabis were disconnected to their teachers and the infrastructure was ruined. -
Peace be upon you AS,
Quote from the site given by Sabi
Fred Hamori and others hosted by another American gentleman called Mr Kevin Brooks -though neither of these men knew about this. By the end of the 90s Sabis were involved in building a website called www.free-minds.org, but by 2002 it had become overrun by muslim "free-thinkers" and "19er" shi'ites (which is why that site went the way it did) and thus needed to disassociate with it. Thanks to the war in Iraq, Sabis were disconnected to their teachers and the infrastructure was ruined.Nonsense. This forum was started by Layth. He, myself and others used to participate on other e-mail forums prior to this. I myself was stuck in the submission.org philosophy and it was Layth that reasoned me away from that. Free Minds website was started and many articles were placed there, which lead to this forum. I have yet to understand what a "sabian" is. I am sure the content of this site speaks for itself. if anyone has doubts about this site, they are certainly not forced to stay ;D So don't give that foolish article a second thought.
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Peace,
I knew that it was nonsense, but what does all these people have with free-minds??? jaleousy i guess D
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Thank you for the links agentx but sadly that site is largely Bogus and is designed to promote the idea that Mandaeans are Sabians so that the Mandaeans can claim sanction of the Shariah state.
http//www.geocities.com/mandaeans/Sabians8.html
Basically the early Arab writers closest to the time of Mohammed who wrote about the Sabians in what could be classified as ancient literature stated their views as follow
Sabi
ah Hunafaia (the way of a Haneef) a somewhat disorganised religion (10) following the Din of Noah (1) as a sect who read the Zabur (1,3) akin to Christianity (2). They appear to be between Judaism and Magianism (4) but are in fact closer to Judaism (5). Sabis recognise the practice of The Prophet (SAW) in going to the caves prior to his inspiration, as in accordance with the Sabi quest for Tawheed (6). Because of many similarities with the Sabians, The Prophet (SAW) and his companions were often considered to have been Sabians (7). Most specifically this was because of the Sabians shahada ?La ilaha il Allah? (. Other characteristics of the Sabi religion follow (9). They have five daily prayers (though Zohar joins Asr while Maghrib joins Isha). They know Allah (SWT) as the Lord of lords and GOD of gods. They speak to angels in their meditations which has led to the erroneous beliefs among some that Sabis worship angels. They use the sun for a Qiblah. They fast for 30 days. They believe in all prophets reiterating the religion of Noah and not in the same way as the muslims believe in The Seal of The Prophets.The root-meaning of the word Sabi means Proselyte, and is identical in usage with the Greek words Sebomenoi or Theosebes and to a lesser extent Phobeomenoi(11).
After the time of the Caliph al-Mamun, Arab writers seem to virtually cease writing about Sabi
ah Hunafaia and only wrote about Sabi`ah Mushrikeen.(1) Khalil ?ibn Ahmad (d. 786-787 AD) who was in Basra before his death, wrote
?The Sabians believe they belong to the prophet Noah, they read Zabur, and their religion looks like Christianity. He also states that they worship the angels.?*(2) ?Abd ?Allah ?ibn al-?Abbas (lived about 650 AD) wrote
The religion of the Sabians is a sect of Christianity. *(3) Abul ?Ailya said,
?The Sabis are a sect of people of the Scripture who recite the Zabur.?
?Abu Hanifah (d.767 AD) who is the founder of the Hanafite School of Islamic Law wrote
The Sabians read Zabur and are between Judaism and Christianity. *(4)?Ibn Abi Nujayh (d749) wrote
The Sabians were between Judaism and Magianism. *Suddi (d745 AD) also wrote
The Sabian religion is between Judaism and Magianism. *(5) ?Awza? (d.773 AD) a representative of the ancient Syrian school of religious studies wrote
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity. *
Malik ?ibn ?Anas (d795) wrote
The Sabians are between Judaism and Christianity ? *
?Ahmad ?ibn Hanbal (d. 855 AD) the ?Iman of Baghdad wrote
The Sabians are a sect of Christianity or Judaism. *
?Ata ?ibn ?Abi Rabah (d732 AD) wrote
The Sabians live in ?Sawad? and are not identical with the Magians, Christians, or Jews. *(7) ?Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) also wrote
The Sabians are in Sawad and are between the Magians, Christians, or Jews. He also wrote that the polytheists said of Mohammed ?He is a Sabian?. *
?Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) wrote
" He (Mohammed) is a Sabian" *
?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn Zayd (d798 AD) wrote
The prophet and his companions are referred to as "these are the Sabians" comparing Mohammed to the Sabians *( ?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn ?Zayd (d.798 AD) wrote
"The polytheists used to say of the prophet and his companions ?these are the Sabians? comparing them to them, because the Sabians who live Jaziartal-Mawsil (today known as Iraq) would say ?La ilaha il Allah?." *
Rabi?ah ?ibn ?Ubbad (who lived at the same time as Mohammed) wrote
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ?if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah? At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ?he is a sabi.? When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ?Abu Lahab, his uncle." *
Both ?Ibn Jurayi (d. 767) and ?Ata ?ibn Abi Rabah (d.732) wrote
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ?if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah? At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ?he is a sabi.? When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ?Abu Lahab, his uncle' Of the relationship between the Sabians who lived in Sawad (in Iraq ) and Mohammed it is mention that the polytheists of Mecca were heard to say of Mohammed "he has become a Sabian." *(9) Hasan al-Basri (d728 AD) wrote
They read the Zabur and pray in the direction of the qiblah. He also wrote that the Sabian religion resembled the Magians and worshipped angels. *
Qatadah ?ibn Di?amah (d736 AD) wrote
The Sabians worshipped angels, read Zabur, prayed five ritual prayers. In addition he writes that they pray towards the sun. *
?Abdul al-Zanad (d.747 AD) wrote
The Sabians are from ?Kutha? in Iraq, they believe in prophets, fast 30 days in a year, and pray 5 times daily towards Yaman. *
Ziyad ?ibn ?Abihi (d. 672 AD) who was the governor of Iraq during the first Umayyad caliph Mur awiyah wrote
The Sabians believed in prophets and prayed five times daily. *(10)?Abd al-Rahman ?ibn Zayd (d. 798 AD) wrote
The Sabians say that their religion is a religion to itself and they live near Mosul (jazirat al-mawsil) and believe in only one God. He also wrote that they have ? no cult yet their main belief is ?La ilaha il Allah?. He also remarked that the Sabians did not believe in the Prophet Mohammed (in the same way as his followers did), yet the polytheists were known to say of the Prophets and his companions ?these are the Sabians? comparing them to them. *
Wahb ?ibn Munabbih (d 728-732 AD) who was originally from Iran wrote
The Sabians believe " La ilaha il Allah " but they do not have canonical law. *
Mujahid ?ibn Jarir (d 722 AD) wrote
The Sabians have no distinctive religion and is somewhere between Judaism and Magianism. *(11)Abu ?Abdultah said
The word saba?a means ?The one who is a Proselyte.? -
Peace Al Sabi, All
There is a group of people,, like a tribe, that is originally from Iraq but immigrated to the Arabian Gulf area, the very old natives here think of them as Ssabbah. They are very closely knit, marry mostly from each other,, and sometimes even (secretly) called the Jews of the Gulf because they are wealthy yet modest and humble! But they are clearly mainstream sunni muslims..
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Salam Sabi,
I meant that the original people from my land, the desert of SA,, call those new (a century ago) comers immigrating from northern Iraq, Ssabbah. It is a collective title for that different race which moved south with their slightly different beliefs than the locals. The Ssabbah, who were very few, were recognized as sunni muslims but were far enlightened and liberal than the locals. They still are a distinct group that would usually only marry from each other, with exceptions of course. I am only guessing here that the Ssabbah may originally be Sabians then broke away from them. I can research that but I need time.
Can I ask Are you a Sabi as your name here says? Do you speak Arabic,, as there maybe some references in Arabic..
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Jizakallah Khair TAJ,
Not a tribe, but an Ahl. Please do send me the Arabic references. Since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Sabi infrastructure has been virtually destroyed. Anything which might assist those of us who remain in restoring that infrastructure is of absolutely vital importance. I should explain that "Sabianism" originally comes from Nooh (SAW) so because of the age of the religion there are bound to be many deviant (Sabi
ah Mushrikoon) sects of Sabis in the world today, but from what you describe it certainly sounds like these people belong to what we call the Sabiah Hunafawhich are basically the rightly guided Sabioon whose predecessors followed Ibrim (Ibrahim SAW) out of Yazidi Arruha. The religions that descend from Sabianism include, of course islam, but also Yazdanism (out of which came the Nasaraeans), Babism, Bahai, and even Magianism to a certain extent. Yes I am a Sabi. I visit free-minds.org because I know there used to be a lot of Sabieen here up until a few years ago, (some were deluded into thinking they are muslims but want to change Islam into Sabianism instead of changing themselves into muslims, others really were converted to real islam and presumeably left sabianism behind) and I am hoping that if any still visit this board that they might be reunited at http//www.sebomenoi.com and join in the mission of reconstituting the Sabi infrastructure.In Sabi
ah Hunafa, there are those who are Israelites by pedigree, and those who are from any other nation (like me). Exactly as you have described TAJ, those Sabieen who are israelites (i.e. Eledheena Haadu exactly as you say) by pedigree (Sabioon) only marry amongst themselves, but may also marry women from among the rest of us Sabieen. Their women wear the nikaab. Any man whose mother was a sister from among the Sabioon may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us Sabieen (who do not wear nikaab). Any man whose father was a brother from among the sabieen may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us sabieen. There are more rules with regards to the marriage system, but as to why this system exists, Allahualim. If someone is married when they become Sabieen, then their marriage does not become any problem at all, but if they are not already married, once they become a Sabi, then the marriage restrictions apply to them because they have become what we call Ezwejrasool.As I say, pleas do send me the details, since it is of vital importance that we contact them and let them know that we still exist.
Jizakallah khair wa salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatuh.
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Assalam Alaykum Brother,
Those are plenty of details. It seems that you are talking about a completely different group of people than what I thought.
"Allatheena Hadoo" are not "Al Ssabe'een" as both groups were mentioned in Al Quran clearly as different groups of believers +.
The people here called some group of few rich people, who care to marry from each other (maybe to keep the wealth between them) but that is an old thing now as they are marrying from outside more frequently,, in the past they would call them as Jews because they were very wealthy yet extremely humble, and did not like to show of their weallth. But as I said they are clearly and most definitely mainstream sunni muslims.Jizakallah Khair TAJ,
Not a tribe, but an Ahl. Please do send me the Arabic references. Since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the Sabi infrastructure has been virtually destroyed. Anything which might assist those of us who remain in restoring that infrastructure is of absolutely vital importance. I should explain that "Sabianism" originally comes from Nooh (SAW) so because of the age of the religion there are bound to be many deviant (Sabi
ah Mushrikoon) sects of Sabis in the world today, but from what you describe it certainly sounds like these people belong to what we call the Sabiah Hunafawhich are basically the rightly guided Sabioon whose predecessors followed Ibrim (Ibrahim SAW) out of Yazidi Arruha. The religions that descend from Sabianism include, of course islam, but also Yazdanism (out of which came the Nasaraeans), Babism, Bahai, and even Magianism to a certain extent. Yes I am a Sabi. I visit free-minds.org because I know there used to be a lot of Sabieen here up until a few years ago, (some were deluded into thinking they are muslims but want to change Islam into Sabianism instead of changing themselves into muslims, others really were converted to real islam and presumeably left sabianism behind) and I am hoping that if any still visit this board that they might be reunited at http//www.sebomenoi.com and join in the mission of reconstituting the Sabi infrastructure.In Sabi
ah Hunafa, there are those who are Israelites by pedigree, and those who are from any other nation (like me). Exactly as you have described TAJ, those Sabieen who are israelites (i.e. Eledheena Haadu exactly as you say) by pedigree (Sabioon) only marry amongst themselves, but may also marry women from among the rest of us Sabieen. Their women wear the nikaab. Any man whose mother was a sister from among the Sabioon may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us Sabieen (who do not wear nikaab). Any man whose father was a brother from among the sabieen may also marry from Annisa among the rest of us sabieen. There are more rules with regards to the marriage system, but as to why this system exists, Allahualim. If someone is married when they become Sabieen, then their marriage does not become any problem at all, but if they are not already married, once they become a Sabi, then the marriage restrictions apply to them because they have become what we call Ezwejrasool.As I say, pleas do send me the details, since it is of vital importance that we contact them and let them know that we still exist.
Jizakallah khair wa salamu aleikum wa rahmatullah wa barakhatuh.
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My point about the Israelite Sabi
oon by pedigree was that it is not necessarily inaccurate to call them (but not all Sabieen) "Jews" (Alatheena Hadoo), since they (but not all Sabieen) did come from that group and (unlike other Sabieen) their menfolk are circumcised.Wa Salaam.
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Peace,
By the end of the 90s Sabis were involved in helping a tollerant Saudi gentleman by the name of Layth (who seemed to be a Sabi who had adopted quietism for fear of persecution) to build a "God Alone" website (from the Sabi ethos of La ilaha il Allah) to discuss the relevance of the Quran to world society but by 2002 it had become overrun by "Quran-Aloners" intent on creating a new religion for "progressive muslims",
Layth - Sabi?
Peace,
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Peace,
Layth - Sabi?
Layth = Muslim (God willing)...
By the end of the 90s Sabis were involved in helping a tollerant Saudi gentleman by the name of Layth (who seemed to be a Sabi who had adopted quietism for fear of persecution) to build a "God Alone" website (from the Sabi ethos of La ilaha il Allah) to discuss the relevance of the Quran to world society but by 2002 it had become overrun by "Quran-Aloners" intent on creating a new religion for "progressive muslims",
As Kyle mentioned, this website (and the subsequent forum) were a result of initial e-mail exchanges and short articles amongst a small group that began back in 1997 (Rope Discussion).
I do not even know what a Sabien is, or why anyone in this day and age would abandon the system of God as originally revealed through Abraham and confirmed/verified by Mohammed in the final Scripture...
And whoever follows other than surrender/Islam as a system, it will not be accepted from him, and in the Hereafter he is of the losers. (385)
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peace Layth, all
Peace,
Layth - Sabi?
Layth = Muslim (God willing)...
By the end of the 90s Sabis were involved in helping a tollerant Saudi gentleman by the name of Layth (who seemed to be a Sabi who had adopted quietism for fear of persecution) to build a "God Alone" website (from the Sabi ethos of La ilaha il Allah) to discuss the relevance of the Quran to world society but by 2002 it had become overrun by "Quran-Aloners" intent on creating a new religion for "progressive muslims",
As Kyle mentioned, this website (and the subsequent forum) were a result of initial e-mail exchanges and short articles amongst a small group that began back in 1997 (Rope Discussion).
Then, my safer assumption is, the Sabis probably were amongst your small "Rope Discussion" group.
I do not even know what a Sabien is, <snip>
Albeit it is immaterial, but just to ensure that no unfounded claim directed to bro Layth >(
)
Peace and Salam Mesra dari Malaysia.
