The problem with Islam
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LoteTree All scriptures are a human reading, a truth but not the WHOLE TRUTH. Scriptures are a guide to finding God, but Scritpure is not GOD. We should not make Idol out of the Quran but see it for what is It is a Guide....
False. LoteTree cannot seem to tell the truth about the Quran as he is so full of himself here. Al-Quraan clearly states that is AL-HAQQ, the ultimate truth. Allah Himself is also al-haqq. If Lote Tree rejects the Quran, that's fine.
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1.Actually I am not telling you that it is wrong to question the Quranic text. I also question it myself. However, this thread is supposed to be an attempt to figure out what happened to quranic islam. Your previous comments about Abraham were simply conjecture with no proof behind them, and were simply disruptive to the nature of the conversation. When I read Riz's post, I interpreted her question as "sunnism is practiced now, and seems to have been the only recorded practice of muslims, so where is the evidence that there was ever a quranic islam." So, your statements about Abraham and the truth of the Quranic text seemed contrary to the intent of the thread, which is why I kept bringing the quran back into the picture.
2. I personally do not think that the Quran can be compared to the OT or the NT. Both the OT and NT have hundreds of inconsistent and historically inaccurate data, so I personally do not use it for history(spiritual or factual) unless archaeology can back it up. The Quran, on the other hand, is not filled with such inconsistencies, and usually ends up being right even when it contained facts that had not been discovered before it. So, yes I give the Quran the benefit of the doubt, unless it is clearly wrong.
3. Your contention that the Quran is a guide is contradicted by your theories that certain things were concocted to fit into its general monotheistic theme. I do not call something a guide unless I believe in its honesty and truth. For example, I would not read a biology book by a scientist who wanted to cover up the existence of darwin. That would not be a guide considering that it was written by a dishonest peron with alternate intentions. As I do not call the Bible a guide considering that I do not think that it is of truth. So how can the Quran even be "a " truth if it is untrue in your eyes?
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What difference does it make if Allah was a Pagan God? So was God of Abraham, Jacob and Moses! Though these Gods may have Pagan origins but they have been transformed into a figure of transcendence. This is what history hints at.-You have missed my point. Bring your proof that the concept of Yaweh did not exist before paganism. If it in fact did, then Moses would not be following a pagan god would he?. He would simply be going back to what had previously been there.
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Why? Why is this fear of questioning the Quran? Tell me what scares you?-Actually nothing about it scares me. I have been gone from this forum for a while, and I reacted to the questions posed on the thread with the assumption that the quran would be the foundation of discussion. Considering that the question posed was "what happened to quranic islam" that would be a necessary assumption.
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Animal Sacrifice is Pagan ritual. If it was to do with feeding the poor it would not be called "Sacrifice".- "And the plump animals for offering, We have made them for you as decrees from God, in them is goodness for you. So mention God?s name upon them while being orderly, so once their body becomes still, then eat from them and give food to the poor and the needy. It was thus that We have made them in service to you, that you may be thankful. Neither their meat nor their blood reaches God, but what reaches Him is the righteousness from you. It was thus that He made them in service to you, so that you may glorify God for what He has guided you to, and give news to the good doers. "(2236-37). It has everything to do with the feeding of the poor since the next verse states that the blood will not reach God.
I make up mind after having evaluated all evidence, after having questioned all evidence. I am not frightened to question the very basis of my beliefs and my life.
-Good for you.
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Come on chap ( or chapess) how can you say this when you are fearful of questioning the Quran?-As I have previosuly said, I am not afriad of questioning the quran. You seem to take great pride in your ability to make large sweeping generalizations without any actual proof. In your opinion, which part of the Bible is true, and please do the same from each major world scripture( Vedas, all the Gitas, the Dhammapada, all Buddhist texts( both Tibetan and Chinese), the book of Mormon, the Zohar, the Torah, the apocrypha of the NT, the Upanishads, the Ramayana, and the list goes on). Which part is true and which is false? If they are all "a" truth, then which part is true?
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1.Actually I am not telling you that it is wrong to question the Quranic text. I also question it myself.
OK lets question it together shall we? Lets open a new thread for just you and me. And you show me how quran is divine word of God?
Lets call this Thread "Criticising the Quran"?
Shall we open in the OFF-TOPIC since this will be between you and me, ok?Regards,
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OK lets question it together shall we? Lets open a new thread for just you and me. And you show me how quran is divine word of God?
Lets call this Thread "Criticising the Quran"?
Shall we open in the OFF-TOPIC since this will be between you and me, ok?- That is an extremely immature reply. I have made no positive statements about the quran being the word of God, so in effect, there is no challege to be had of me. What I have said is that I trust it unless I have a solid reason not to. Even if we were to have such a discussion, you have not proven to be one who bases his/her ideas on proof. You have also not answered my question which part of those books are true and which are false? I thought you were going to educate the rest of us who apparently do not question? From the looks of it, this entire thread, bravely posted by Riz, is the biggest question ever posed on Islam.
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Come on chap ( or chapess) how can you say this when you are fearful of questioning the Quran?
-As I have previosuly said, I am not afriad of questioning the quran. You seem to take great pride in your ability to make large sweeping generalizations without any actual proof. In your opinion, which part of the Bible is true, and please do the same from each major world scripture( Vedas, all the Gitas, the Dhammapada, all Buddhist texts( both Tibetan and Chinese), the book of Mormon, the Zohar, the Torah, the apocrypha of the NT, the Upanishads, the Ramayana, and the list goes on). Which part is true and which is false? If they are all "a" truth, then which part is true?
But what does the Bible, Vedas, Gita, Zohar, Torah say about the nature of "God"?
This is what they say Meeting with the Divine is never a logical encounter because "God" is beyond Language and Reason. Divine is encountered when you go beyond the concept of Language and Reason. This experience of "God" is not out there in a separate divine ontological sphere but happens within us all. That is why Muhammad did not reach out to the highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker". This also the insights of the Great Seers, Sages, Meditators, Prophets and Mystics that have come and gone in the bygone ages of this world. Some have called this experience with Divinity "Brahman", "Tao", "Nirvana", "God" but they all point to a reality which is beyond all human categories..
Lets discuss in a separate thread?
Regards,
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OK lets question it together shall we? Lets open a new thread for just you and me. And you show me how quran is divine word of God?
Lets call this Thread "Criticising the Quran"?
Shall we open in the OFF-TOPIC since this will be between you and me, ok?- That is an extremely immature reply. I have made no positive statements about the quran being the word of God, so in effect, there is no challege to be had of me. What I have said is that I trust it unless I have a solid reason not to. Even if we were to have such a discussion, you have not proven to be one who bases his/her ideas on proof. You have also not answered my question which part of those books are true and which are false? I thought you were going to educate the rest of us who apparently do not question? From the looks of it, this entire thread, bravely posted by Riz, is the biggest question ever posed on Islam.
Immature? I was serious. I thought we could have an open ended disucssion. But its ok if you dont want to discuss this with me. Please continue with answering Riz's question. I thought I was making some contribution to this thread but I see I was mistaken so I bow out from this thread -)
Regards,
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Immature? I was serious. I thought we could have an open ended disucssion. But its ok if you dont want to discuss this with me. Please continue with answering Riz's question. I thought I was making some contribution to this thread but I see I was mistaken so I bow out from this thread
- We can start a separate thread where everyone will be invited to post. That is fine. It is better that we move the discussion out of this thread as I hate it when a good thread gets diluted with side remarks.
That is why Muhammad did not reach out to the highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker"
-It is a small point, but where is the proof of that?
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Immature? I was serious. I thought we could have an open ended disucssion. But its ok if you dont want to discuss this with me. Please continue with answering Riz's question. I thought I was making some contribution to this thread but I see I was mistaken so I bow out from this thread
- We can start a separate thread where everyone will be invited to post. That is fine. It is better that we move the discussion out of this thread as I hate it when a good thread gets diluted with side remarks.
If you think questioning the very basis of your beliefs is side remark then what can I say? But you move on to Riz's questions.
And I see your hesitation of me and you going head to head, mono to mono using the Queensbury rules. I think you have been intimated! but I assure you no such intimidation meant -)
That is why Muhammad did not reach out to the highest heavens for the revelations but rather he descended to the very core of his soul in a "meditative-trance" to meet his "maker"
-It is a small point, but where is the proof of that?
The proof is within yourself. You have to look within. God is just. He allows those that seek him to find him. And those that have sought indeed have found him. Anyone can have the experience like the Prophets. If you are sincere, dedicated and courageous and have an open mind and heart then you to can enter that divine reality many have called "God".
But if you need proof of Muhammad's meditative experience then read about what the traditional accounts has to say when he went into trances and how the trances came about and compare this with the accounts of Hebrew Prophets, mystics and seers and you find a remarkable resemblance!
Anyway you better move on to Riz, his waiting patienty perhaps for your responses.
Sorry Riz, to hijack your thread again!
I am out of it now -)Regards,
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Hey guys,
Yea this thread seemed to have derailed cry But lets get back on track. I'm not questioning the authenticity of the Quran. It is the one thing I can always rely on. The authenticity could be discussed in a seperate thread if anyone wants.
Well, I did ask a few questions which were overlooked. Either you guys are tired of this topic or just missed them. So if your tired, then just let the thread die I guess, otherwise could someone reply or add to the ideas and questions I posed on the last page? Thanks