Discrepancies in the Quran
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Albion,
Your logic seems to be is that consistency means a word for word quotation of a long speech. Where did you get that from the Qur'an?
Secondly, you assummed its a quotation whilst it is what he said, which could be a part of what he said.
You are merely loading your own meanings of consistency to what the Quran meant on consistency. And, emposed your own definition of what the verse does which you assummed to be giving you a quote.
Wheras, if you knew the Qur'an had to put it in different words as many times as possible to clarify concepts then you would understand why it is not surprising for the verses to say different things.
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please see 37 to see what 'al quran' says...
He is the One who sent down to you the decree/scripture, from which there are clear/firm signs/verses; they are the source/essence of the decree/scripture; and others which are similar (mutaSHaBiHatun).
From PRL
= Shiin-Ba-Ha = to be like, to resemble/assimilate/liken/imitate, to compare one thing with another due to an attribute connecting them or is common to them can be real or ideal - real "this dollar is like this dollar" ideal "John is like the lion/ass (i.e. strength/stupidity)", appear like another thing, ambiguous/dubious/obscure, comparison/similitude/parable/simile, co similar, resemble (in quality or attributes), conformable.
With reference to the Quran is that of which the meaning is not be learned from its words and this is of two sorts one is that of which the meaning is known by referring to what is termed "muhkam" and the other is that of which the knowledge of its real meaning is not attainable in any way or it means what is not understood without repeated consideration. (e.g. 37)It is obvious, 'al quran' itself answers your unresearched allegation.
Let me ask you, when someone explains something important to you, do you always get it first time? If not, I'm sure you ask for clarification. And in doing so, does the person explaining the thing to you use the exact same words and repeat themselves?
Wakas
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Let me ask you, when someone explains something important to you, do you always get it first time
We are talking about God who has perfect recall, not like humans who may or may not have good recall. God is PERFECT and will always get it right the first time..
By asking that question you are implying that those are the words of a human and not the words of God. This actually adds to the wait of evidence that it is a human saying it and NOT God himself who said it.
3875 He said O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands ? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
1532 He said O Iblis! What aileth thee that thou art not among the prostrate ?
712 He said What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee ?
Let me ask you a question!!
What did God say to Iblis when he didn't prostrate before Adam?. Its not a hard question because you have 3 chances of getting it right. Or should I say you have 3 chances of getting it wrong because you have know way of knowing for sure what God said to Iblis.
3875 He said O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands ? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
This is a QUOTE.. It starts with God saying in the third person singular "He said" and than changed to first person singular, stating what God himself said to Iblis. He starts "O Iblis.. " so he is clearly addressing Iblis in the first person and quoting what God himself said in the first person "I have created".
God must know what he said, but apparently Muhammad wasn't sure what God said because he didn't get the quotes right.
Similar is not good enough when you quote, everything withing the quote should be as it was said... not similar to what was said.
And to say that it is similar to, is nonsense because there is no point in given three DIFFERENT versions of what was said. Unless offcause your not sure what was said and you are just adlibbing. But this cant be the case with God because he is sure of everthing he has said and done and what others have said and done..
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Peace Wakas,
Let me ask you, when someone explains something important to you, do you always get it first time
We are talking about God who has perfect recall, not like humans who may or may not have good recall. God is PERFECT and will always get it right the first time..
Albion doesn't even get what you're saying. roll So I think you just proved the point. wink
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Albion doesn't even get what you're saying. So I think you just proved the point.
Peace Zein,
Good point. Albion seems to think GOD wrote the book for himself and not us.
Here is a quote I have grown to love
Whatever a man wisheth that too he will believe wink
Albion wishes to believe Quran has discrepancies.
Regards
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Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy
You try every trick in the book to cover-up Muhammads handwork and mistakes.
The quran has a verse in it that clearly says that if it wasn't from God there would be many discrepancies. And when discrepancies are found (Many) you try to say God didn't write the quran and the discrepancies found are those of Man.
YES YOUR RIGHT they are the words of man, the words of Muhammad!!!!!
Whether God wrote the quran or not is not the point. It is God (aka Muhammad) who has guaranteed that the quran will be free of Discrepancy.
No valid reason has yet been given for the discrepancies
Try Again!!!!
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As salaamu alaikum,
has any of you read Ibn Warraq's book "Why I am not a Muslim"???
I would like to discuss his arguments with you.
While Albion has only brought up one case of discrepancy, Ibn Warraq not only argues that there are discrepancies but also tries to show that at a later stage in his life the prophet used to "get" revelations in order to cover his actions.
Since it is quite a complex book, I would prefer to discuss it with people who read it rather than quoting pages and pages.
Did any of you read it?Was salaam
oyuni -
You try every trick in the book to cover-up Muhammad?s handwork and mistakes.
Albion,
Your allegations are becoming more and more preposterous, do you have any proof that we are trying to cover up mistakes?
The quran has a verse in it that clearly says that if it wasn't from God there would be many discrepancies.
What I said before to you, which I might as well speak to a brickwall, is that you are defining "discrepancies" as to what you wanted to be. The Arabic is the core here, you need to find the word and define what it means.
YES YOUR RIGHT they are the words of man, the words of Muhammad!!!!!
Really, do you believe this with sound analysis and reasoning as opposed to the fact that it might invalidate your belief that Jesus is a god?
Whether God wrote the quran or not is not the point. It is God (aka Muhammad) who has guaranteed that the quran will be free of Discrepancy.
...to which you want to empose your own definition of "discrepancy" instead of looking up the arabic as this is what you wish to believe.
No valid reason has yet been given for the discrepancies
You can't have an answer to a false question where you skewed the definitions.
Try Again!!!!
Nothing will satisfy you, because you are being a pompous christian.
Try harder and be objective. wink
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Since it is quite a complex book, I would prefer to discuss it with people who read it rather than quoting pages and pages.
Did any of you read it?Was salaam
oyuniSalaam Uhuru,
I did not read it and I think there are better books to read on my reading list, I read rather widely. Perhaps I will read it someday, my point is there is a lot more to learn about the Book of GOD that I'd rather get a good grounding as oppossed to a 5 minute study as albion shows and thinks he has grasped it.
Perhaps you could start its own thread..
Salaam
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has any of you read Ibn Warraq's book "Why I am not a Muslim"???
No I haven't read it, but I can understand why he is not a Muslim
later stage in his life the prophet used to "get" revelations in order to cover his actions.
Yes this is true, one classic example is the verse about marrying the wife of your adopted sons.
But there are many other self serving verses like the verses about killing and being killed in the NAME of Allah are clearly not the words of God, but in fact self serving verses that Muhammad added to force his follows Kill and be kill in the cause of Muhammad
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But there are many other self serving verses like the verses about killing and being killed in the NAME of Allah are clearly not the words of God, but in fact self serving verses that Muhammad added to force his follows Kill and be kill in the cause of Muhammad
In the name of GOD, it refers to those who have not kept their treaty repeatedly as in Surah 8 and 9. But, you christians are pissed off as we are still here, and you would have preferred us to just curl up and die.
In the name of GOD, is in the name of justice. You kill in the name of country in self defense and for phoney reasons and kill hundreds and thousands. It is OK to kill for secular reasons but not in the name of GOD, who has no need for you to kill for Him, but merely so that you survive.
In the name of GOD, authorises you to defend yourself when attacked. You can only attack when you're attacked. Simple as, but for those who want to comprehend...
But you will not because your mind is made up!
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Great! I don't find anything wrong in Albion's quote.
3875 He said O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands ? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
1532 He said O Iblis! What aileth thee that thou art not among the prostrate ?
712 He said What hindered thee that thou didst not fall prostrate when I bade thee ?
It is clear enough to understand the following
Allah said, O Iblis! what hindered you that you did not fall prostrate when I bade you to fall prostrate before that which I have created with both of my hands?......
This includes all what is said in 3875, 1532 and 712
3876 He said I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire, whilst him Thou didst create of clay.
1533 He said I am not one to prostrate myself unto a mortal whom Thou hast created out of potter's clay of black mud altered!
712 (Iblis) said I am better than him. Thou createdst me of fire while him Thou didst create of clay.
Next we have Iblis? Response
Iblis said I am not one to prostrate myself unto a mortal whom you have created with potter's clay of black mud altered and you have created me of fire. So, I am better than him.
Is there any problem in the above said?
3877 He said Go forth from hence, for lo! thou art outcast,
1534 He said Go forth from hence, for lo! thou art outcast
0713 He said Then go down hence! It is not for thee to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! thou art of those degraded.
Next we have Allahs response to what Iblis said
Allah said Then go down hence! It is not for you to show pride here, so go forth! Lo! you art of those degraded outcast.
3878 And lo! My curse is on thee till the Day of Judgment.
1535 And lo! the curse shall be upon thee till the Day of Judgment.
My curse shall be upon you till the day of judgement.
3879 He said My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised.
1536 He said My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised.
0714 He said Reprieve me till the day when they are raised
Iblis said My Lord! Reprieve me till the day when they are raised.
Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy
Absolutely true... !
And please look at the following verses
"And We have cited in this Quran so they may remember, but it only increases their aversion" 1741
"Say If there had been gods with Him as they say, then they would have tried to gain a way to the throne" 1742
"Be He glorified and High from what they say, a great falsehood" 1743"Say If all the humans and the Jinn were to gather to bring a Quran like this, they could not come with its like, even if they were helping one another" 1788
"And We have cited to mankind in this Quran of every example, but most of mankind refuse to be anything but a rejecter!" 1789May Allah open our hearts for Islam and guide us towards the correct path.
Regards,
MMKhan
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Hi Ashuura
I think you should not make general statements (attacks at) about Christians when you reply to Albion. It is 1) wrong/unfair and 2) offensive.
YOU kill in the name of x, y and z does not apply to Christians or Muslims but to a large part of humanity (and what about muslim muslim wars such as iraq iran war, what about senegal mauritiania war, civil wars in yemen, algeria, afghanistan?)
I think it is completely wrong to think in WE and YOU, if you polarize the world like this you will surely get the rewards for it.And if you have not read Ibn Warraq's book you should not judge how useful it is to read. You seem to be as closed minded as you accuse Albion to be??
Salaam
oyuni -
PS to previous message to Ash Shuura
Ash Shura, actually, even when replying to Albion I do not see why you should attack him the way you do. He just asked a question and presented his reasoning. Why should you attack him? Is that the peace and love that Islam and Christianity propose?
oyuni
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Peace uhuru,
He just asked a question and presented his reasoning.
I beg to differ, the whole premise of the creation of this thread (and pretty much any thread albion starts) is an attack. Ash shuura is merely giving albion a much milder version of his own medicine.In regard to Ibn Warraq's book, it would be interesting to hear your view on a new thread. Also, here's a short thread on the same subject, maybe you can continue there.
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Peace Oyuni,
Perhaps instead of engaging in a diatribe, you would care to explain what offended you so much. In my view you it seems you are responding to what you want to see. Albion's posts here go a long way and we are aware of his preconceived notions. I am free to challenge and give it in the same measure. If you think I have exceeded show me how!
And, respectfully refer to my post carefully, I said I might read Warraqs book someday! Aren't you jumping to your own conclusions here? I simply have a long reading list right now and its not a priority. Am I closed minded because my priorities are not the same as yours? I was trying to be helpful to you by suggesting a seperate thread so people can see, perhaps responding was a big mistake.
No hard feelings this time D
Peace and security wink
regards
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Really, do you believe this with sound analysis and reasoning as opposed to the fact that it might invalidate your belief that Jesus is a god
Can you post a quote from one of my posts where I've ever said that is my belief.... wish you luck!!
And if you cant post a link to a post where I have said that, than you are just doing what Muhamad did... i.e Misquoting, but in Muhammads case he Misquoted bot God and Iblis.
Back up your claim please!!
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Albion,
Show me where does it say in the Qur'an it is a word for word record? This is your interpretation of consistency and not of the Qur'an. You have not answered one challenge and you're bringing your self into the debate.
Incidentally, I speculated you were a christian and I should have known better you would say "jesus is god" and nitpick. Or aren't you a christian? Where did I say this is my assertion? It was very clear I was speculating there making a rhetorical argument. Can I take it you were not making assertions but speculating likewise, in all instances? That will do for me lol
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.It was very clear I was speculating there making a rhetorical argument.
The same as Muhammad speculated what God and Iblis said, and got it wrong 3 times. .
Show me where does it say in the Qur'an it is a word for word record?
That question has already been addressed
3875 He said O Iblis! What hindereth thee from falling prostrate before that which I have created with both My hands ? Art thou too proud or art thou of the high exalted?
This is a QUOTE.. It starts with God saying in the third person singular "He said" and than changed to first person singular, stating what God himself said to Iblis. He starts "O Iblis.. " so he is clearly addressing Iblis in the first person and quoting what God himself said in the first person "I have created".
Now a question for any here who is game to answer it
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
God has told you exactly what he said so it shouldn't be hard for someone here to answer that question!!
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It seems you are all having troubles answering this question..
What did God SAY to Iblis when Iblis refused to prostate before Adam ?
God has told you exactly what he said so it shouldn't be hard for someone here to answer that question!!
Now for the Next Discrepancy in the quran
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD" while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
Muhammad had many mistakes when he took material from other sources like the Bible etc. But how Muhammad made the mistake of thinking the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God is a mistery.
There is nothing in the Torah (OT) that even hints at Ezra ever being called the son of God. So Muhammad must have got this bit of misinformation from another source.
But where ever Muhammad got this wrong information from it is more evidence that the Quran is NOT from God because God wouldn't make such a mistake
