Discrepancies in the Quran
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Greetings savage_carrot,
I would like to comment on this?
Even the christians don't say jesus is the son of God, they say he is god in some magical mystical way...no need to go any further than the forum...take for example the case of the conjoined twins apple + pie (who mysteriously always talk in the collective)...so for ezra to be divine/god/son of/part of in the same contorted vein is entirely feasible and sure as hell ain't a contradiction...
You are speaking from the vantage point of Islam and not the Koran...as the authors who penned the Arabic text (as we know it today) clearly state that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is God
Perhaps you need to brush-up on your scriptures instead of letting Islam control your mind like a puppet?
Thanks?
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There is NO, NONE and ZERO evidence that Jews do or have EVER said or believed that Ezra is Son of God. Not even SOME Jews....
That is so true, the way to go about this is whenever presented with any evidence, scream bloody propoganda and duck...what? evidence? I didn't see nothin' nope, not a thing, and be sure to add 'All Lies' just to be on the safe side...Do not reply to supposed propaganda, why! you could just be caught in trying to explain the evidence. What will truly make this way successful is when doing the above to the letter, one will simultaneously avoid any blow to their carefully crafted albeit flimsy theories aka contradictions...leaving them free in their own minds to be in denial or to propagate their own propaganda or agenda's or whatever...
The Prophets are divided into Major and Minor Prophets. Ezra is regarded as a Minor Prophet both in Jewish and the christian scripture.
He is a very, very Minor Prophet. He doesn't rate in the same group as the Great Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel.
Rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat...
Ezra is so well thought of in the Talmud that it is written of him that "the Torah could have been given to Israel through Ezra, if not that Moses preceded him" (Sanhedrin 21b).
This revelation closes with Ezra being taken into heaven without dying.
All over the world the Jews look upon Ezra as the greatest man in their history except Moses. They call him the second founder of Israel.
So it is clear the FALSE PROPHET Muhammad read some jewish fables or was told some jewish fairy tales that lead him to make the wrong connection that the Jews call Ezra the son of god
To faithful followers, adding to the guide above, if in doubt, liberally sprinkle CAPITALS in posts, that will surely drive the point home...there shall be no escaping capitals...it is foolproof...
Sorry your weak attempt at explaining the false prophet errors is very weak indeed
I'll just take your words for it...As near as I can tell, you should have stuck to cut and pastes instead...maybe it's time to walk away before the dark forces swallow your soul...just a thought?
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Apple Pie
You are speaking from the vantage point of Islam and not the Koran...as the authors who penned the Arabic text (as we know it today) clearly state that Jesus is the Son of God and that Jesus is God
Perhaps you need to brush-up on your scriptures instead of letting Islam control your mind like a puppet?
From what i read of your posts, you are not exactly on a first name basis with Mr. Lucidity...
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Greetings savage_carrot,
Thanks for your comment?
From what i read of your posts, you are not exactly on a first name basis with Mr. Lucidity...
What parts of the Arabic do you require to be clarified for you?.?
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closes with Ezra being taken into heaven without dying.
That was Elijah, NOT Ezra ... Try Again !!!
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That was Elijah, NOT Ezra ... Try Again !!!
Please give your sources as the website gave theirs...and try to explain where they are incorrect...in previous posts, this is what is expected of you...discuss what is presented...give your take on it with your evidence...
http//www.answering-christianity.com/quran/qb005.htm
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According to the website, it is talking about the seventh revelation of esdras, which is below i think, its easy to get lost in the amount of books these guys have
http//www.pseudepigrapha.com/pseudepigrapha/revesd.htm
to cut a long droning story short and give quotes here
And the prophet said Lord, if Thou take my soul from me, who will be left to plead with Thee for the race of men And God said As thou art mortal, and of the earth, do not plead with me. And the prophet said I will not cease to plead. And God said Give up just now the trust; the crown has been prepared for thee. Come and die, that thou mayst obtain it. Then the prophet began to say with tears O Lord, what good have I done pleading with Thee, and I am going to fall down into the earth? Woe's me, woe's me, that I am going to be eaten up by worms! Weep, all ye saints and ye righteous, for me, who have pleaded much, and who am delivered up to death. Weep for me, all ye saints and ye righteous, because I have gone to the pit of Hades.
And the prophet said Woe's me! woe's me! what shall I set about? what shall I do? I know not. And then the blessed Esdras began to say O eternal God, the Maker of the whole creation, who hast measured the heaven with a span, and who holdest the earth as a handful,(4) who ridest upon the cherubim, who didst take the prophet Elias to the heavens in a chariot of fire,(5) who givest food to all flesh, whom all things dread and tremble at from the face of Thy power,--listen to me, who have pleaded much, and give to all who transcribe this book, and have it, and remember my name, and honour my memory, give them a blessing from heaven; and bless him(6) in all things, as Thou didst bless Joseph at last, and remember not his former wickedness in the day of his judgment. And as many as have not believed this book shall be burnt up like Sodom and Gomorrah. And there came to him a voice, saying Esdras, my beloved, all things whatever thou hast asked will I give to each one. And immediately he gave up his precious soul with much honour, in the month of October, on the twenty-eighth. And they prepared him for burial with incense and psalms; and his precious and sacred body dispenses strength of soul and body perpetually to those who have recourse to him from a longing desire. To whom is due glory, strength, honour, and adoration,--to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.
Sure is adored by the people who penned this...and he has a perpetual dispenser of blessings body...what more could one ask really? Hallelujah!
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Apple Pie
What parts of the Arabic do you require to be clarified for you?.?
Eh? Did you not get my loaded last post? Did you think I have no idea about your "exegesis of sura 86"? The pages upon pages of mutated arabic and the verses upon verses slaughtered mercilessly? That any more clarification from you would make me slap myself out of dumfounded amazement saying "More clarification from Apple Pie! Thats just what i needed! Of course! Why didn't i think of that! That will make everything right as rain"?!?
After that "exegesis" i find it easier to believe jesus was conceived by the midi chlorians than i had previously supposed...
Thank you for your help and support, i know where to find you.
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Greetings savage_carrot,
Thanks for your reply?
Apple Pie
Quote
What parts of the Arabic do you require to be clarified for you?.?Eh? Did you not get my loaded last post?
Loaded with what?exactly?.?
Did you think I have no idea about your "exegesis of sura 86"?
Exactly?you even admit to it?..thanks?. wink
The pages upon pages of mutated arabic and the verses upon verses slaughtered mercilessly?
So?.this is what you think about the ?original? Arabic of your book of faith?.?
Who would have guessed?
That any more clarification from you would make me slap myself out of dumfounded amazement saying "More clarification from Apple Pie! Thats just what i needed! Of course! Why didn't i think of that! That will make everything right as rain"?!?
After that "exegesis" i find it easier to believe jesus was conceived by the midi chlorians than i had previously supposed...
Thank you for your help and support, i know where to find you.
Translation
You cannot refute my exegesis.
Period.
Now?.
Run along?
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To whom is due glory, strength, honour, and adoration,--to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, now and ever, and to ages of ages. Amen.
You're not making any sense... we are talking about Jews and you post writtings that talk about the Trinity...
The original source of the story before it was twisted is the Torah itself... and it is Elijah NOT Ezra that it is talking about....
2Ki 21 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal
2Ki 211 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked that, behold there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Fact remains no matter how much muslims twist and distort the scripture, or twist and distort the Arabic language, or twist and distort history the Jews do NOT and have NEVER said the Ezra is SON of GOD...
Your False prophet was WRONG yet again
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Apple Pie
Loaded with what?exactly?.?
So?.this is what you think about the ?original? Arabic of your book of faith?.?
When you can't even get a simple sentence or two and the driving need persists in you having to completely lie about what i said amongst others, as is evident in your threads... you really expect people to take you seriously? Dream on in your land of nod...
Who would have guessed?
Not you thats for sure...clueless as you are...and admit to as well...
Translation
You cannot refute my exegesis.
Translation
I make it a habit not to refute people who think they are napoleon too...
Now?.
Run along?
Now...,
Go back to your imaginary friends...
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Albion
You're not making any sense... we are talking about Jews and you post writtings that talk about the Trinity...
You are not making any sense...we are talking about a verse that talks about jews and the christians and how both have some figures amongst others who are claimed to be divine/part of/son of God...Did you perchance reject the perpetual holy dispenser of light in the narrative?
The original source of the story before it was twisted is the Torah itself... and it is Elijah NOT Ezra that it is talking about....
Prove it...give us your references and your quotes from these passages...refute the website and it's nomenclature with your evidence...It clearly says, the book of esdras chapter 17 is
Canonical Status
? Among the Deuterocanonical Books of the Old Testament of the Russian Orthodox Church
? Among the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha of the Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Churches
Last i heard, the old testament was what the jewish people accept...
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
The Old Testament or the Hebrew Scriptures (also called the Hebrew Bible) constitutes the first major part of the Bible according to Christianity.
The Hebrew Bible is the Tanakh.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh
Ezra (Books Of and assorted sundries) is included in the Tanakh that the jewish people accept...so what are you going on about?
Noooo it wasn't him, it was Elijah, it was...go refute the book of ezra and what it says too while you are at it...it's not difficult to see where everyone gets their superman/saint traditions from...they are all sons of/parts of the divine! Their bodies are alive! Their souls are in heaven...just a slight flesh wound it is....
Your False prophet was WRONG yet again
Your Mind is in DENIAL yet again...Does the darkness compel you?
What is a blatant contradiction to all thought processes is the claim that God turned into a man then killed himself off to save humanity and cheerily escaped to the skies above...not much of a bloody sacrifice was it, given that it was bloody... to top it all off he didn't really turn into a man per se, he was godlike still and just what is the deal with the holy ghostie on a postie anyway?...oh the vile misery of it all...why deal with trivialities? Go for the big one...
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Peace Zein,
Good to be back, it's fun to see these tightly held pockets of dimensional delusions...i'll give up after a while...there's no reasoning with the unreasonables...
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There is NO, NONE and ZERO evidence that Jews do or have EVER said or believed that Ezra is Son of God. Not even SOME Jews....
Where is your evidence they did not? lol
You obviously like to stack the questions in a way to fool yourself. The logical conclusion is neither can be known. Hence, you need to give it the benefit of doubt. For me, I believe it because other parts of the Qur'an has convinced me it is the Book of GOD.
Peace
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The Ezra books like Vision of Ezra/Apocalypse of Ezra etc are called early jewish writings...
http//www.earlyjewishwritings.com/visionezra.html
What is interesting is, in the first website i posted...
George Sale makes an interesting comment concerning the Muslim as well as Judeo-Christian opinion on this issue.
This grievous charge against the Jews, the commentators endeavour to support by telling us, that it is meant of some ancient heterdox Jews, or else of some Jews of Medina; who said so for no other reason, than for that the law being utterly lost and forgotten during the Babylonish captivity, Ezra having been raised to life after he had been dead one hundred years, dictated the whole anew unto the scribes, out of his own memory; at which they greatly marvelled, and declared that he could not have done it, unless he were the son of God.
Dr. Prideaux tells us, that herein the Fathers attributed more to Ezra, than the Jews themselves, which he laboured much in, and went a great way in the perfecting of it. It is not improbable however, that the fiction came originally from the Jews, though they be now of another opinion, and I cannot fix it upon them by any direct proof. For, not to insist upon the testimony of the Mohammedans (which yet I cannot but think of some little weight in a point of this nature,) it is allowed by the most sagacious critics, that the second book of Ezra was written by a Chrisitian indeed, but yet one who had been bred a Jew, and was intimately acquainted with the fables of the Rabbins; and the story itself is perfectly in the taste and was of thinking of those men.
It doesn't matter who accepts what, mainstream or otherwise...the probability based on references, that there existed some jews/christians of the same vein who likened humans to the status of having acheived divine power/part of the divine is there...We can see it even now among us...
Ash Shuura's question still stands
Well you're quite right it does not say SOME but neither it says ALL Jews either. Why do you accept it does not say "SOME" but you accept it to be "ALL"? Why did you choose that particular personal interpretation?
I would like this answered with some evidence at least...
Nowhere is it imperative that the jewish people believe that ezra is the son of God in the torah...it can happen anywhere, anytime...it does not need to be present even in any books...one can take a fable and turn it around and some will believe it to be truth...
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we are talking about a verse that talks about jews and the christians
No we are only talking about the UNDERLINED section of the verse that refers to the Jews and Ezra
930 The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD" while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.
Muhammad had many mistakes when he took material from other sources like the Bible etc. But how Muhammad made the mistake of thinking the Jews say that Ezra is the son of God is a mistery.
Do you see the phrase that is underlined.... We are talking about the Jews and the FALSE Prophet CLAIM that the Jews say the Ezra is SON OF GOD
Yes I know there are other discrepancies in that very same verse.. but the Topic at hand is the UNDERLINED PHRASE
Prove it...give us your references and your quotes from these passages...refute the website and it's nomenclature with your evidence...It clearly says, the book of esdras chapter 17 is
It was already given.... here it is again... christians have the same Torah as the Jews
2Ki 21 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal
2Ki 211 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked that, behold there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Ezra (Books Of and assorted sundries) is included in the Tanakh that the jewish people accept...so what are you going on about?
Yes there is the Book of Ezra in the OT and the Jewish Scripture. It has 10 Chapters....
go refute the book of ezra and what it says too while you are at it...
Please quote from the Book of Ezra from the Jewish Scripture.. Don't waste time quoting from Muslim Propoganda sites
There is NO Chapter 17 in the Book of Ezra..... Try Again !!!!
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Albion
Yes I know there are other discrepancies in that very same verse.. but the Topic at hand is the UNDERLINED PHRASE
Ok, let's talk about the underlined phrase...
Yes there is the Book of Ezra in the OT and the Jewish Scripture. It has 10 Chapter, NOT 17
Yes, i agree with you...the rest are called early jewish writings...and they are included in the OT of the christians though...
Please quote from the Book of Ezra from the Jewish Scripture.. Don't waste time quoting from Muslim Propoganda sites
Explain why it's propoganda and answer the question below please
Well you're quite right it does not say SOME but neither it says ALL Jews either. Why do you accept it does not say "SOME" but you accept it to be "ALL"? Why did you choose that particular personal interpretation?
Like i said before
Nowhere is it imperative that the jewish people believe that ezra is the son of God in the torah...it can happen anywhere, anytime...it does not need to be present even in any books...one can take a fable and turn it around and some will believe it to be truth...
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the rest are called early jewish writings...and they are included in the OT of the christians though...
No they are NOT.... I have already said christians have the same Torah as the Jews... The book of Ezra in the OT is the same the Jews have and it has 10 Chapters
Well you're quite right it does not say SOME but neither it says ALL Jews either. Why do you accept it does not say "SOME" but you accept it to be "ALL"? Why did you choose that particular personal interpretation?
And the Jews say 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of All?h,
It doesn't need to say ALL, because it says "the Jews" so it is referring the MAINSTREAM Jews, and THE jews do NOT and have NEVER believed that Ezra is or was the son og God....
Some of those who are Jews change words from their context and say
Muhammad has show he knows the difference between SOME Jews and the Mainstream Jews..
That is just a very weak attempt at covering up Muhammads mistakes.. Dont waste your time trying such a pathetic trick as that
And even if it did say SOME Jews, there is no historic evidence to support that either..
They are just the words of the False Prophet Muhammad, Not GOds words
one can take a fable and turn it around and some will believe it to be truth...
Muhammad did that many times... The story of the boys in the cave is a Jewish Fable that Muhammd mistook for a true story and put it in the quran....
there are many other examples of jewish fables turning up in the quran, another reason why the quran is Muhammads handy work and is not from God
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albion
The book of Ezra in the OT is the same the Jews have
The OT of various christian sects are different from the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible). The various assorted books of ezra along with the visions and apocalypses and what not are included in the christian OT...different sects of christians, as jews, differ on what is accepted and what isn't...
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esdras
CategoriesOld Testament Books
- There are several books of the Bible or Apocrypha which have been labelled Esdras, after the Greek for Ezra. The Vulgate contains four Books of Esdras, and the Septugaint three; but confusingly, the numbering of the books differs between them.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament
The Protestant Old Testament consists of the same books as the Tanakh, but the order and numbering of the books are different.
The Roman Catholic, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox include additional books, called the deuterocanonical books, which Protestants exclude as apocryphal.
Jews themselves do not accept the New Testament or the characterization of the Tanakh as the Old Testament (although many Jews accept Jesus as a historical figure and even as a student of a Tannaitic sage).
Hebrew Bible refers to the common portions of the Jewish and Christian canons.
Because it refers to the common portions of the Jewish and Christian biblical canons, it does not encompass the deuterocanonical books, largely from the Greek language Septuagint, included in the Old Testament used by the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches; thus the term Hebrew Bible only corresponds to the Old Testament in use by the Protestant denominations.
Thus SOME christians accept other stuff in their OT, therefore the OT of ALL christians is not the same as the Tanakh.
It doesn't need to say ALL, because it says "the Jews" so it is referring the MAINSTREAM Jews,
Like, if i said "the Christians" include visions of ezra in their OT, you would assume i meant ALL/MAINSTREAM? I think i and everyone else can see your problem regarding the quranic verse now...maybe you see it too?
edited to correct