4:101-103
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Transliteration + Translation side by side
Wa-itha (and if) DaRaBtum (strike/journey) fee (in/on) al-ARDi (the earth/land) falaysa (there is not) AAaLaYkum (on you) JuNaHun (sin) an (that) taQSuRoo (you shorten/limit) mina (from) al ssalati (the bond/oration) in (if) KHiFTum (you fear) an (that) yaFTiNakumu (will harm/affliction you) allatheena (those who) KaFaRoo (conceal/reject) inna (truly) al KaFiReena (the concealers/rejecters) kanoo (are) lakum (to you) AAaDuWwan (enemy) muBYeeNan (open/manifest)
Wa-itha (and if) kunta (thou are) feehim (among/in them) faaQAMta (thou uphold/establish/observe) lahumu (to/for them) al ssalata (the bond/oration) faltaqum (let uphold/stand/observe) TA-iFatun (party/section) minhum (from them) maAAaka (with you) walyA/KHuTHoo (and let them take) aSLiHatahum (their arms/weapons) fa-itha (then/when) SaJaDoo (acknowledged) falyakoonoo (then let them be) min (from/of) WaRA-ikum (behind/rear/back) walta/ti (and let) TA-iFatun (party/section) oAKHRa (other) lam (who not) yusalloo (bonded/orated/turned towards) falyusalloo (bond/orate/turn towards) maAAaka (with you) walyA/KHuTHoo (and let them take) HiTHRahum (their precaution) wa aslihatahum (and their arms/weapons) WaDDa (wish) allatheena (those who) kafaroo (conceal/reject) law (if) taghfuloona (you neglect) AAan aslihatikum (your arms/weapons) wa amtiAAatikum (and your baggage/goods) fayameeloona (they swoop) AAalaykum (upon you) maylatan (rush) WaHiDatan (one/single) wala (and not) JuNaHa (blame/sin) AAalaykum (upon you) in (if) kana (is/was) bikum (with you) athan (inconvenience/annoyance/harm) min (from) MaTaRin (rain) aw (or) kuntum (you/thou are) MaRDa (ill) an (that) tWDaAAoo (you put down/relinquish) aslihatakum (your arms/weapons) wa khuthoo (and/but take) HiTHRakum (their precaution) inna (truly) Allaha (The God) aAAadda (has prepared) lilkafireena (for the concealers/rejecters) AAathaban (punishment) muheenan (humiliating)
Fa-itha (when) qadaytumu (you are done) al ssalata (the bond/oration) faothkuroo (be mindful) Allaha (The God) qiyaman (standing) wa quAAoodan (and sitting) wa AAala (and on) junoobikum (your sides) fa-itha (when) itma/nantum (relieved) faaqeemoo (uphold/establish/observe) al ssalata (the bond/oration) inna (truly) al ssalata (the bond/oration) kanat (is) AAala (on) al mumineena (the trustful/believers) kitaban (decree/law/book) mawqootan (timed/measured)
*the root of the Arabic word is sometimes shown in capitals above, to aid further investigation if one wishes.
Translation
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And if you journey (separate out) in the land, then there is no sin that you shorten/limit from the bond/oration, if you fear that the concealers/rejectors will harm you. The concealers/rejectors are to you a clear/open enemy.
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And if thou are among them and uphold/establish/observe the bond/oration to/for them, then let uphold/stand/observe/establish section from them with you and let them take their weapons; when they have acknowledged then let them be of the rear; and let other section who have not bonded/orated bond/orate with you and let them take their precaution and their weapons. Those who conceal/reject wish if you neglect your weapons and goods they can swoop/ambush in one rush. There is no blame upon you if there is inconvenience/harm from rain/shower, or if you are ill, that you put down your weapons, but take precaution (if doing so). Truly, The God has prepared for the concealers/rejecters a humiliating punishment.
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When you are done with the bond/oration, then be mindful of The God while standing, and sitting, and on your sides (i.e. all the time). Then, when you are relieved (i.e. without threat), uphold/establish/observe the bond/oration. Truly, the bond/oration is on the trustful/believers a timed decree.
Points to consider
The slw being referenced is an act of turning/going towards.
It is no coincidence that it ends with stating slw is a timed decree, after mentioning when you are relieved (without threat) uphold slw. It is implying uphold it in the usual manner. Thus implying the slw referenced in the prior sign is out of sync, unusual, an exception etc.
If it means once prostrated then move to the rear, then this is inconsistent with the traditional prayer because it does not end with prostration. Not only that, the traditional prayer has several prostrations, so which one is it talking about?! Rather, it does not mean prostration.
It is still implying to go ahead with the slw, even if laying down your weapons, but if you do this take precaution. That means the inconvenience of rain has nothing to do with prostrating (as this article suggests), because it is still implying to go ahead with the slw! If its difficult to carry your weapons or goods due to rainfall or illness, then you can still establish/uphold/observe the slw and there is no blame upon you. Simple.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
The concealers/rejectors are to you a clear/open enemy.
- And if thou are among them and uphold/establish/observe the bond/oration to/for them
In English the "them" is often not very explanaratory, and the object seems to be the "kaffireen". I am a little rusty and behind. How does "feehim" convince you this refers to believers. Essentially, imagine yourself standing and on your left there are the non believers and on your right the believers, so how did you conclude this was refering to believers. This is a point that most experienced scholars seem to debate.
Clarify your views please.
Peace
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peace be upon you Ash,
I was unaware "experienced scholars" debate this issue. I would be interested to hear the actual arguments if this is the case.
Here is my reasoning...
4101 discusses slw for the messenger and those with him, no-one else.
Prior to 4102, the subject of reference when using "...kum/hum" is NEVER the kafireen. It references the messenger and those with him. And this is how it continues into 4102.
4102 - 'min' is a partitive, so when it says 'minhum' (from them) it is talking about a section from the people referenced. Its unlikely it references two types of groups at the same time, using one "...kum/hum". Examples showing this is done in other places will have to be demonstrated otherwise.
In times of fear, upholding/establishing the slw in two groups in a rotational manner makes sense.
If you feel those referenced at the beginning of 4102 are the KFR, then please put in KFR into the translation to see if it holds.
Wakas
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Peace Wakas,
I checked two possible references I have in Turkish, and my search yielded nothing. So, I may have been mistaken by relying on my memory. I have read a lot of commentary over time and this argument I might have recalled from Saffar then.
I struggle with the object here as the initial verse references it with an adjective as oppossed to a noun. But this must be a peculiarity in Arabic.
Thanks for the explanation
Peace
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Peace Wakas.
I think the faction that are not doing salaat with the prophet are to bear with them the weapons, while the other faction stands to guard.
Maybe, this way the situation would be more realistic if salaat is to be considered physical. If salaat involves kneeling down and then loweing your chin close to your body, then you can as well hold the swords,shields, lances, bows & arrows. If salaat has the steps that are being followed now, it would be rather difficult to place your face flat on the ground carrying those types of weapons, I think.
Godbless.
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salamun alaykum,
perhaps you may want to consider to ponder over this
4101.And when you (pl.) travel about the land/are on travel, then it is no sin/not an offense that you to fall short in/limit the relationship/connection/bond if you fear that the disbelievers may subject you to temptations. Verily, the disbelievers are to you a clear/open enemy/foe/opposition.
4102.And when you (s) are amongst them, you should uphold the relationship/connection/bond with them. Let some of them be familiar/acquainted with you, and let them ?relinquish/lay down their arms?/be at ease with you. So when they have showed their respect/reverence, they should be of your past, and let another group that have not joined/participated, to join you, and let them ?relinquish/lay down their arms?/be at ease and throw their cautions away. But those who have disbelieved wished if you (pl.) ?would neglect your arms with gratifications?/be careless/were carried away due to gratifications, since they wished for a single chance on you (pl.). And it is no sin/not an offense if you (pl.) were rained/showered by troubles/annoyance/insults or you were ill, that you ?lay down your arms? and throw your cautions away. Verily God has prepared a humiliating punishment for disbelievers.
- When you (pl.) have established/ratified the relationship/connection/bond, then you remember God while standing, sitting and lying down on your sides. When you are secure/safe/at ease, establish/correct/honor the relationship. Indeed relationship/connection/bond is for believers a/an appointed/fixed/limited message/document/contract/decree.
notes
in my humble comprehension, these verses are for us - providing a guide on how to act/behave when meeting/having an encounter with strangers. since we have no knowledge whether they know, understand or respect the relationship/connection/bond (which involves the whole spectrum of all that are in relations, e.g. God & man, man & man, husband & wife, child & parent, etc.), these verses provide the way/method to establish the proper attitude on dealing with relationships. but of course, the pivotal issue is man's relationship with God, and of special note is the last sentence of 103 (that is almost the 'exit clause' - the relationship is limited to the conditions, e.g. when we are safe/secure/at ease, or when we are among believers, or when we are among disbelievers, etc.).
of 'arms' - it is for us to ponder whether do carry guns & daggers all the while & everywhere or whenever we meet people, or rather we are simply armed with a comprehension attained to us by God and the full awareness of God's presence in our dealing with people. there is no doubt that some people are armed with their prejudices, anger, jealousy, complex (inferiority or superiority), etc.
please seek for God's guidance. ask, and you will be attained to the correct/honorable comprehension. insha-Allah.
may God guide us on the straight/correct/honorable path. insha-Allah.
peace
mohammed noh -
These ayahas looks like the recommendations about prayer ritual in danger situations. Why change the whole meaning just to see what the person want?I like your interpretation, but answer my questions, i always think about this.
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salamun alayk ibrahim-khalil,
if you believe that
These ayahas looks like the recommendations about prayer ritual in danger situations.
then you have the full rights to act accordingly. i have never asked you or anyone else to take my personal comprehension for the truth and sole truth. it's your personal choice to believe or disbelieve. likewise it is within your full rights to believe whatever you choose to believe.
Why change the whole meaning just to see what the person want?
please note that i do not change the meaning according to my whims and fancy. please study the arabic language and culture before attempting to comment/criticize my personal comprehension. please...
I like your interpretation, but answer my questions, i always think about this.
it matters not whether you like or dislike my personal comprehension (not 'interpretation' please). please ask God about it, and plead to be guided on the truth. i cannot help, other than informing you on how to attain an understanding or to discover the truth. the truth is with God. so ask Him, please.
and be at peace
mohammed noh -
Peace,
Peace Wakas,
Wa-itha kunta feehim (4102)
How can we conclude that ?kunta? refers to the prophet? Can?t it refer to any body?
Sorry, I only read your post just now.
As far as I am aware, in this verse, it is the singular, so in this example, it very likely is the prophet, but in terms of utilising this example for future generations, then it implies a person can conduct/lead the regular/timed salat/homage, in a group based setting.
I am not sure if this answers your question, if not, please clarify.
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Peace Wakas, All,
My opinion is that 4101 and 4102 is for a different audience;
4101 And when you(pl) are journeying in the land there is no fault in you(pl) that you shorten the prayer, if you(pl) fear the unbelievers may afflict you(pl); the unbelievers are for you(pl) a manifest foe.
4102 When thou(s) art amongst them, and performest for them the prayer, let a party of them stand with thee(s), and let them take their weapons. When they bow themselves, let them be behind you(pl); and let another party who have not prayed come and pray with thee(s), taking their precautions and their weapons. The unbelievers wish that you should be heedless of your weapons and your baggage, then they would wheel on you all at once. There is no fault in you, if rain molests you, or you are sick, to lay aside your weapons; but take your precautions. God has prepared for the unbelievers a humbling chastisement.
In 4101; it refers the second person as plural
while in 4102 it refers the second person as singular.Hence there is a change of audience
Any comments/ corrections is appreciated
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Peace Wakas,
Thanx for your insight on the word Sujud in 4102
I was actually looking for the for grammatical evidence (for or againts) that the 4101 and 4102 is not connected, so far i found that 4101 audience is plural; it may be a group of people listening to the prophet
In 4102; the audience is singular (my opinion its the prophet or the leader in the salat).Aidid safr group is telling that the people refered in 4102 is the mushrikeen just as you explain in the beginning of the thread. Just thought of asking whether is there any other gramatical evidence that points otherwise.
regards
loli -
My evidence is as follows, posted in this thread logic + grammar
peace be upon you Ash,
I was unaware "experienced scholars" debate this issue. I would be interested to hear the actual arguments if this is the case.
Here is my reasoning...
4101 discusses slw for the messenger and those with him, no-one else.
Prior to 4102, the subject of reference when using "...kum/hum" is NEVER the kafireen. It references the messenger and those with him. And this is how it continues into 4102.
4102 - 'min' is a partitive, so when it says 'minhum' (from them) it is talking about a section from the people referenced. Its unlikely it references two types of groups at the same time, using one "...kum/hum". Examples showing this is done in other places will have to be demonstrated otherwise.
In times of fear, upholding/establishing the slw in two groups in a rotational manner makes sense.
If you feel those referenced at the beginning of 4102 are the KFR, then please put in KFR into the translation to see if it holds.
Wakas
Aidid Safar is good at pointing out problems with the traditional understandings, but when it comes to understanding Quran by Quran, it's hit and miss, i.e. quite poor.
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4101 And when you (plural) are traveling in the land, there is no harm that you (plural) shorten the salat, if you (plural) fear that alatheena kafaroo will try you (plural). Al kafireena are to you (PLURAL) a clear enemy.
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As per my current understanding, there is a difference between alatheena kafaroo (those who are lost in darkness/indifferent to warning) and al kafireena (the hypocrites). 26-7 gives the definition for alatheena kafaroo while 28-220 describes al kafireena. Alatheena kafaroo are the enemy that is attacking the believers while al kafireena are the internal enemy.
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The last group/people mentoned in plural in verse 4101 is "you" (i.e. the believers). Thus, the first few instances of "them" upholding the salat in 4102 refer to the believers. It is subtle, but still indicates that it is the believers that are upholding the salat with the messenger.
It thus reads
4102 And when you (singular - i.e. the messenger) are with them (plural - i.e. the believers) and uphold the salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons. When they have submitted...
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Verse 4102 is definitely the one that deals the final blow to the concept of a ritual prayer the way traditionalists view it. When read in conjunction with other verses it appears clear that salat was some kind of meeting dedicated to god and was essentially revolving around the quran. Exposing the traditionalist to this verse is the best way to show him that the ritual which he thinks is the key to paradise has in fact nothing to do with what salat is intented to be. Think about it, a gathering of some sort with real and substantial reading is way more beneficial for the believers than the pointless individual gymnastic and the parroting of a few surah here and there, so much so that it becomes ridiculous that, given the importance of the concept of salat in the quran, we even think of it as some sort of ritual. That's why I will never understand why some self-pretending quran only believers are still trying to interpret salat as rituals. They just can't throw away any past preconceived notion while approaching the quran and they're thus subconsciously sticking to their traditionalist past.
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Peace Lost.
By all means,give us your take on the meanings of the "Aquimi Saat" verses.
Only make sure that you bring all your evidence from Qoran using all the verses with "Aquimi Salat" in them.
We already know that "Salat" is not a ritual,this is easy to establish from Qoran,but the problem for you and others is "Aquimi Salat".
Simple questions like
What is "Aquimi Salat"?
What gathering are people talking about?
What does 56 mean?
What is "specific times"?
...etc.
We are all ears,since you say,quote
That's why I will never understand why some self-pretending quran only believers are still trying to interpret salat as rituals. They just can't throw away any past preconceived notion while approaching the quran and they're thus subconsciously sticking to their traditionalist past.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
