EDUCATION OF ANWAR AZIM
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Yo LoteTree,
Bonjour Anwar,
Hola LoteTree,
Suicide bombers killing innocent lives... X raping Y... W plundering Z... and all sorts of atrocities in this world... Where is the "Great Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of the God in all these? What is the message of hope here?Adios.
Anwar AzimYou are not mquran? Why are spoiling my thread?
Suicide bombings, looting etc? Yes that is from potraying God as an Angry God.
"Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" that comes from a Compassionate God.
and the message hope? Is compassion for your fellow manI mentioned some atrocities and asked where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in the context of those atrocities? I didn't ask where "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" come from. Those who are committing all those atrocities are God's creations, as you mentioned God created us all. So where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in all those?
Remember, everything can be questioned. And by the way, how do you know God created us all and how did God create us all?
Anwar Azim
PS the message of compassion is good. ) -
Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
Why did you chose such a title for this thread? Was it to promote peaceful debate? Just a reminder.
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
Why did you chose such a title for this thread? Was it to promote peaceful debate? Just a reminder.
Just to get mquran attention -)
But if you ask me to change it I will change it.
Thanks.
Regards,
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Guten Tag Herr Anwar,
I mentioned some atrocities and asked where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in the context of those atrocities? I didn't ask where "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" come from. Those who are committing all those atrocities are God's creations, as you mentioned God created us all. So where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in all those?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.
And by the way, how do you know God created us all and how did God create us all?
Tell me first how you know that God created you?
Do you know because Scripture tells you or
do you have rational proof that God created you?PS the message of compassion is good.
Bueno!
Saludos,
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Peace be upon you Lote Tree,
Just to get mquran attention
But if you ask me to change it I will change it.
I just wanted to remind us all, including myself, to debate peacefully, not attack or insult.
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Guten Tag Herr LoteTree,
Guten Tag Herr Anwar,
I mentioned some atrocities and asked where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in the context of those atrocities? I didn't ask where "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" come from. Those who are committing all those atrocities are God's creations, as you mentioned God created us all. So where is "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in all those?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.
But still, you didn't answer where "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in all those is?
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Tell me first how you know that God created you?
Do you know because Scripture tells you or
do you have rational proof that God created you?I asked YOU first since you wrote "...then we can all live without fear in our hearts and begin to appreciate the Great Majesty, Wonder and the Beauty of the God that created us all".
So please answer first. How do you know God created us all and how did God create us all?
Forget about the Scripture. I didn't mention any Scripture nor did I quote any regarding "God created us all".
Just an aside question Do you have any psychological attachment with Scripture, by any chance?
Leb wohl.
Anwar Azim
Edited removed the article "the" that was before Scripture. -
But still, you didn't answer where "Majesty", "Wonder" and "Beauty" of God in all those is?
I thought I did?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Inherent Goodness is in our Soul. We can glimpse this Inherent Goodness in ourselves when we are sincere, courageous, compassionate and dedicated and are at peace within ourself.
I asked YOU first since you wrote "...
Oh I wanted to know how much you know?
Because without a common frame of reference it is hard to discuss these kinds of things.
Have you studied history of religons?
Have you studied history of religious experience in many cultures?
Have you studied what gives rise to the religious experience?
Have you stuided science?Regards,
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
I thought I did?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Inherent Goodness is in our Soul. We can glimpse this Inherent Goodness in ourselves when we are sincere, courageous, compassionate and dedicated and are at peace within ourself.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
Because without a common frame of reference it is hard to discuss these kinds of things.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Have you studied history of religons?
Have you studied history of religious experience in many cultures?
Have you studied what gives rise to the religious experience?
Have you stuided science?That doesn't prove that "God created us all", by appealing to all of the above.
Anwar Azim
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I thought I did?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Inherent Goodness is in our Soul. We can glimpse this Inherent Goodness in ourselves when we are sincere, courageous, compassionate and dedicated and are at peace within ourself.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
If I could "Tell" them then they would not be suicide bombers would they? This Inherent Goodness in ourselves we have to discover on our own through knowledge and understanding, courage, compassion and dedication and being at peace within ourself.
Because without a common frame of reference it is hard to discuss these kinds of things.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Neither do you. Neither does anyone else.
That is why absolute beliefs are dangerous and it is also a folly.Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
Have you studied history of religons?
Have you studied history of religious experience in many cultures?
Have you studied what gives rise to the religious experience?
Have you stuided science?That doesn't prove that "God created us all", by appealing to all of the above.
I take it you haven't ?
Well, Anwar if your understanding is that God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne, then how can I explain to you the meaning of Transcendent God?Regards,
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
I didn't say "...why do you get suicide bombers". Perhaps you should read well. Or are you getting too old? roll
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
You don't have to tell me that. But apparently there ARE people who don't think so. That's why there is suicide bombing. You should tell THEM.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
If I could "Tell" them then they would not be suicide bombers would they? This Inherent Goodness in ourselves we have to discover on our own through knowledge and understanding, courage, compassion and dedication and being at peace within ourself.
Don't you want the Mullahs to stop inciting hatred? Don't you want the wanna-be-suicidal bombers not to suicide-bomb others? I thought you did. Why can't you tell them? Do you have excuses for that? At least give them the message. I am quite disappointed that all that you have stood for so long regarding the Mullahs and the suicidal bombers was just a show, appearing to be good in front of others.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Neither do you. Neither does anyone else.
That is why absolute beliefs are dangerous and it is also a folly.I didn't claim to have any proof. "absolute beliefs"? Isn't your belief "God created us all" absolute? Isn't your belief that "compassion is the message of hope" absolute? Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. Getting old?
Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own.
I take it you haven't ?
Well, Anwar if your understanding is that God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne, then how can I explain to you the meaning of Transcendent God?You may take it that way if it pleases you.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination.
Anwar Azim
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
I didn't say "...why do you get suicide bombers". Perhaps you should read well. Or are you getting too old? roll
I still don't understand you. Free Will in itself is Good because it allows us to gain experience. But if you use your Free Will to commit murder then that is bad. Why should any one appreciate Free Will of Mullahs commiting murders? Why there should be beauty in that? Strange questioning.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
You don't have to tell me that. But apparently there ARE people who don't think so. That's why there is suicide bombing. You should tell THEM.
But I had to tell you that or else you would not ask me this question in the first place. If there are people who don't know murder is wrong, then I suggest you take the Quran and Hadiths from their hands and make them think for themselves. Then more of them will realise murder is wrong on their own terms.
Don't you want the Mullahs to stop inciting hatred?
That is easy to do. Remove the Scripture and hadiths from their hands and educate them. Close the Mosques and Madrasas. That should do it.
Don't you want the wanna-be-suicidal bombers not to suicide-bomb others?
Yes, implement what I have written above and that should sort it.
I thought you did. Why can't you tell them?
You can tell them. I can tell them. And I have been telling people on this forum about ignorant mullahs preaching hatred in our mosques and madrasas. You can tell them as much as you like. But what I am talking about is different Anwar. I am talking about searching within to find the Goodness in yourself, to find the peace and harmony within yourself. I am telling this to people here on this forum. But to find the peace and harmony within themselves they must do this for themselves. I can't give people peace and harmony. It does not work like this.
At least give them the message.
I have done. This message is compassion. This what I am doing here. Telling people of compassion.
I am quite disappointed that all that you have stood for so long regarding the Mullahs and the suicidal bombers was just a show, appearing to be good in front of others.
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Appearing to be good in front of others? ha ha ha -) My naive Anwar, is that what you think of yourself?
I didn't claim to have any proof. "absolute beliefs"? Isn't your belief "God created us all" absolute?
Isn't your belief that "compassion is the message of hope" absolute?
God created us? Yes, don't you believe that?
Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?But I am saying to you, you can only experience this Truth of Compassion, Truth of Divinity. But you can't prove it objectively. So there is no objective proof as you say. The Universe hints that Universe has a creator but there are no objective proof of this creator.
Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. Getting old?
I am saying, to claim a particular Scripture that came through a human being as Objective Proof of God is dangerous and is a folly.
Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own.
Good question. If it is delusion then all the Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators have been deluded. But I have not reached this "meditative-trance" yet nor am I enlightened yet but I would like to believe that I am on the path of englightenment, so I am not able to tell of this from experience. When you have experienced this then you will "know". Just like you know Truth of colour, though you will never able to explain this Truth to a person who is born blind.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination.
AzimOh good. I am glad. You see without you telling me I would not have known that -)
Regards,
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Hola LoteTree,
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Didn't you understand that, wise guy? All the way from the beginning. )
Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?
But it doesn't say that "God created us". ) You are just relating Science to your belief, connecting it to "God created us". So do other people who follow Scriptures.
Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. ) Getting old?
I am saying, to claim a particular Scripture that came through a human being as Objective Proof of God is dangerous and is a folly.
Nope. That's not what you said. Better stay consistent and coherent.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own. )
Good question. If it is delusion then all the Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators have been deluded. But I have not reached this "meditative-trance" yet nor am I enlightened yet but I would like to believe that I am on the path of englightenment, so I am not able to tell of this from experience. When you have experienced this then you will "know". Just like you know Truth of colour, though you will never able to explain this Truth to a person who is born blind.
Again you appeal to some "Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators". You yourself are not able to tell from experience, and yet you are claiming that one will "know"? It's better to stand on one's own rather than believing what other's might have experienced.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination. )
AzimOh good. I am glad. You see without you telling me I would not have known that -)
You need to ask to know. Or else you can choose not to know and keep making assumptions, never confirming them and be happy with them. By the way, have you grown out of confirming assumptions due to old age, thinking that you know it all because you have grown old?
See, I'm asking to know. ) But you have the right to respond or ignore or even think that I'm naive. )
Anwar Azim
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Hola LoteTree,
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Didn't you understand that, wise guy? All the way from the beginning.
Oh wise chap I am truly humbled -)
It is so encouraging to find a second truely wise mind.
Just kiddin -)Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?
But it doesn't say that "God created us". You are just relating Science to your belief, connecting it to "God created us". So do other people who follow Scriptures.
But you must make use of all available information to base your beliefs don't you? or do you just read and base your beliefs on one particular scripture alone or science alone? Science tell us Universe had a begining so we must be created. This is from logic and rationality. And the Seers, Sages, Prophets and Mystics tells us that there is a Transcendent reality which lies beyond Language and Reason which they have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. And simple meditation techniques can allow you to glimpse the unity of Tao, Brahman-Atman, Nirvana, God. Information is there but you must verify it yourself.
Again you appeal to some "Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators". You yourself are not able to tell from experience, and yet you are claiming that one will "know"? It's better to stand on one's own rather than believing what other's might have experienced.
I am not enlightened yet. But when I am, then for sure I will "know" and you will "know" too when you are enlightened even though you are unable to describe this "know" in the concept of language. All I can say is that meditation allow you to "see" that there is a reality that lies beyond everyday rational thought processes and this what the Prophets, seers, sages and mystics tell us also. As for myself I have not progressed in my meditation to that "know" stage yet. But I have "experienced" so far "infinite space" and "sense" of "unity" within and this is in line with what Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said, so I would like to believe that I am on the path to enlightenement...
You need to ask to know. Or else you can choose not to know and keep making assumptions, never confirming them and be happy with them. By the way, have you grown out of confirming assumptions due to old age, thinking that you know it all because you have grown old?
See, I'm asking to know. But you have the right to respond or ignore or even think that I'm naive.
OK I am ignoring you -)
Regards,
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Peace LoteTree,
But you must make use of all available information to base your beliefs don't you? or do you just read and base your beliefs on one particular scripture alone or science alone? Science tell us Universe had a begining so we must be created. This is from logic and rationality.
If "we must be created", then whoever has created us has reponsibility towards its creation, or else it is just a whimsical creator, it cannot be compassionate.
And the Seers, Sages, Prophets and Mystics tells us that there is a Transcendent reality which lies beyond Language and Reason which they have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. And simple meditation techniques can allow you to glimpse the unity of Tao, Brahman-Atman, Nirvana, God. Information is there but you must verify it yourself.
Look LoteTree. You are describing to me what this "Transcendent reality" is in some way or other. You said before that it is compassionate, which again is another little description using "Language". And you are trying to communicate with me about this "Transcendent reality" using "Language". How's that so if it is beyond "Language"? I know you think you are a wise guy (based on your comments), so tell me, what the heck are you trying to say?
So now, what is the purpose of this "Transcendent reality"? Why do human beings have to find it? After creating the human beings, why has this "Transcendent reality" gone into hiding and waiting for the human beings to be found out? Does it have any sense? It looks like it is playing hide and seek.
But I have "experienced" so far "infinite space" and "sense" of "unity" within and this is in line with what Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said, so I would like to believe that I am on the path to enlightenement...
The sense of "infinite space", "sense" of "unity" you experienced is because you were not thinking anymore while you were in a meditative trance in your own little world. And besides, who cares what "Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said" if I cannot confirm it myself !
OK I am ignoring you -)
That's just fine with me.
Anwar Azim -
Salaam Lote Tree.
Hmmm, there is this side within me that feels very sympathetic towards your position and I perfectly understand where you?re coming from.
In the end, I feel much much much more comfortable with your take on religion than with the general expressions we found in traditionalist Islam, Church Christianity and other organized clericalisms.
Actually, personally I think that it doesn?t matter too much if you or someone else believe in the divine truth of the quran or not, as long as you live by the general and most important principles taught in the quran.
I think I am quoting mquran here when I write that nowhere does the quran command us to throw a book at someone?s head.On the other hand I fear that you are runing a little bit too wild in your discussion.
Indeed, being sceptic is better than blind faith.
But when you think that me, anwar, mquran or anyone else who wants to follow the quran is teaching blind and absolutist belief, than you?re wrong.The English word
faith? orbelief? (just as its equivalent in many western european languages) has unfortunately sometimes notions of the wordassumption?. The quranic wordiman?, often translated as faith, has no such notions. Its central meaning comes somewhat close tofirm confidence?,trust?.
This confidence is not reached through a mere emotional relation.
It is the result of a deep dialogue with revelation, a dialogue that includes the intuition of the heart as much as the reason of your brain.The quran does not ask us to have blind faith. It aks us to witness and realize its truth in the observation of the universe, in the signs in our own selves, on the farest horizons, in every piece of creation.
Numerous quranic verses teach this.
We are responsible for this. We can not depend on scholars or clerics for this, we can not depend on our society on this or on the ideas of our forefathers. It is our own heart and mind that has to observe the reality of revelation and when you come to observe it, you develop the confidence, the trust, iman.
Reasoning is the path to quranic iman, not absolutist blind faith.While following the quran I kept staying a sceptical and reasoning person. However, observing the unfolding of the signs of Divinity in my life I see with every year more and more where the problems are that make me wonder. And I always came to the conclusion that it was not within the quran.
I have made my own experiences with regards to having trust in the quran. This strong faith has few to do with the inquisition, my friend.When discussing about the quran, you should aknowledge that. At least for other inidviduals.
Mquran?s position is in no way what you?re assuming. Some here on the forum, including me, know him a little bit better than you do and would never come to the conclusions that you came to.
You should read and reflect his words more carefully, I think.
Someone who goes the true path of reasoning about the quran with the standards that the quran itself sets will never, God willing, end up being comparable to a Taliban or an Inquisitor, I am sure.
In general, I think, this is as well true for someone who follows the same way with the gospels, the true core teachings of Buddha or the core of Taoism. Although I would here give a certain superiority to the quran, not only because it was kept authentic in much more ways than other scriptures.You express doubt about the absolute nature of revelation. Well, this is a tricky question. I perfectly understand your doubts.
There is no easy answer on this issue.
Indeed, human language is always a framed thing, while Allah Himself is not. Thus, can a single scripture in an earthly language really have a pure character?
I wonder about this a lot myself.However, again, I think you?re running too wild with your argument of God?s incomparability and transcendence.
If we put God?s transcendence in absolute terms we need to come to the conclusion of numerous philosophers before us (and the conclusion that also Taoism and also the quran preaches)
That the Divine is `coincidentia oppositorum? (a term coined by Nicolaus Cusanus), the coincidence of all opposits, the fullness of all possibilities.
These opposits also include the opposition between a total incomparable and nonknowledgeable Divine and a speaking, listening and selfrevealing personal God.
For the Absolute to be really absolute, to be really transcendent, it needs to include both of these sides without contradictions.
If there was only one side, the incomparable or the speaking one, the transcendent wouldn?t be fully transcendent.And, in the end, the Divine is nor Disneyland creation. It is the source of everything and not just a fluffy, lovely
dear god? who smiles like the Dalai Lama (no objection against tibetan buddhists intended .... ). Thecoincidentia oppositorum? includes eternal mercy but it also needs to include eternal justice to be, again, fully transcendent.
Allah is, as the quran says, Dhul-Jalaali wa-l Ikram.
He is the holder of both powerful majesty and free bounties.With best wishes,
Allah Hafiz,Leyla
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If "we must be created", then whoever has created us has reponsibility towards its creation, or else it is just a whimsical creator, it cannot be compassionate.
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Look LoteTree. You are describing to me what this "Transcendent reality" is in some way or other. You said before that it is compassionate, which again is another little description using "Language". And you are trying to communicate with me about this "Transcendent reality" using "Language". How's that so if it is beyond "Language"?
You have proved to yourself the problematic nature of human language when discussing trascendence. I suggest you make study of it yourself and come to your own understanding.
I know you think you are a wise guy (based on your comments), so tell me, what the heck are you trying to say?
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
So now, what is the purpose of this "Transcendent reality"? Why do human beings have to find it?
You don't "find" trascendence", you achieve "transcendence" which is the act of going beyond yourself in a meditative-trance. But what I am saying each individual is capable of having this experience just like the Prophets have done in the past. It is only through this experience that you can verify the reality many have called God, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman, Tao etc. even though you can't justify it rationaly.
Study it yourself Anwar and you too will realise this connection between God, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman, Tao.
The sense of "infinite space", "sense" of "unity" you experienced is because you were not thinking anymore while you were in a meditative trance in your own little world.
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
And besides, who cares what "Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said" if I cannot confirm it myself !
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
OK I am ignoring you -)
That's just fine with me.
Anwar Azimsnap! -)
Regards,
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Actually, personally I think that it doesn?t matter too much if you or someone else believe in the divine truth of the quran or not, as long as you live by the general and most important principles taught in the quran.
If it doesn't matter why so much attachment to this one book?
Ayman and Edip are in the opinion (they can correct if I am wrong) that you don't need Quran at all as long as you live a righteous life. So why so much attachment to this single book? Take this book as Guidance by all means but not make Idol out of it. That is my argument. And many are in agreement with this and yet the deep attachment still continues...On the other hand I fear that you are runing a little bit too wild in your discussion.
Wild? Wild has much a sexual conotation! I don't have much experiecne of that but I can at least dream about it -)
But wild how so? Was denouncing the failure of muslim societies to tackle the ignorant mullahs preaching ideology of hatred in our mosques? Was it too wild to denounce the London tube train Bombers? I thought I was being thought-provoking in my discussion -)
But when you think that me, anwar, mquran or anyone else who wants to follow the quran is teaching blind and absolutist belief, than you?re wrong.
I said there is danger and folly in absolutist belief in the Quran because these kind of religious belief has been the cause of much suffering in the world. I don't think I said it is wrong for you to follow the teachings of the Quran.
Can we not discuss about the folly and danger of absolutist beliefs, Leyla? Or is that off-limits here?
I have made my own experiences with regards to having trust in the quran. This strong faith has few to do with the inquisition, my friend.
Having trust in the Quran is fine thing but does it mean you stop questioning this trust?
When discussing about the quran, you should aknowledge that. At least for other inidviduals.
Fair enough. But does that mean I can't question your trust in the Quran?
Mquran?s position is in no way what you?re assuming. Some here on the forum, including me, know him a little bit better than you do and would never come to the conclusions that you came to.
But I can only go by what he writes Leyla because I don't know him personally. I am sure he is a nice person as you say. But when he abdicates his reason to a book then I have to question that don't I? or is that off-limits?
Someone who goes the true path of reasoning about the quran with the standards that the quran itself sets will never, God willing, end up being comparable to a Taliban or an Inquisitor, I am sure.
No such accusation meant to him personally.
In general, I think, this is as well true for someone who follows the same way with the gospels, the true core teachings of Buddha or the core of Taoism. Although I would here give a certain superiority to the quran, not only because it was kept authentic in much more ways than other scriptures.
A buddhist will say Buddhism is far more superior as it does not involve a vengeful God who is keen on burning unbelievers in hell fire.
I would say none of the scriptures are any superior. They are all mere guide to spirituality and God.
You express doubt about the absolute nature of revelation. Well, this is a tricky question. I perfectly understand your doubts.
There is no easy answer on this issue.
Indeed, human language is always a framed thing, while Allah Himself is not. Thus, can a single scripture in an earthly language really have a pure character?
I wonder about this a lot myself.Then read and study Leyla and I am sure you too can see the connection between God, Brahman-Atman, Tao, Nirvana etc.
However, again, I think you?re running too wild with your argument of God?s incomparability and transcendence.
All I can say study it yourself.
For the Absolute to be really absolute, to be really transcendent, it needs to include both of these sides without contradictions.
If there was only one side, the incomparable or the speaking one, the transcendent wouldn?t be fully transcendent.All I am saying is "transcendence" is key to the religious experience. I am not saying anything else. The rest is upto you to study and understand.
Regards,
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Peace Lote!
First of all, as far as I know him, mquran would say something definitely quite similar to what you?ve quoted as Edip?s and Ayman`s opinion in many ways.
And this is one of the many points where, quite frankly, you didn?t understandd him right or misread him.
But I am not here to speak for him, so maybe you should wait for his reappearance.To answer your question from my own viewpoint
My attachment is one based on the experience of guidance.
That does not mean that I didn?t find guidance in other religious scriptures or in my own intutions, ecperiences etc..
I simply made the experience that the quran is the criterion (furqan) through which I can integrate all these sources of wisdom.
I have a sure confidence that everyone who will really dive into the quran will make similar experiences.
The quran does not disqualify wisdom, it integrates it.You forget one very big thing here
To believe in the quran means to believe in all its verses.
And numerous of its verses tell us that everyone who has a sincere confidence in the One Divinity, the last day and who does good and constructive deeds will have salvation, no matter what his outward religious affiliation.
So, everyone who wholeheartedly attaches himself to the quran has to aknowledge the possibility of salvation for others who don?t.
So, when we insist on the quran, we also insist on salvation for others.I was not refering to criticism of terrorism. I would agree on this criticism. But this criticism has few to do with true followers of the quran according to the standards set by the quran itself.
When I described you as `running wild? I also referred to your unwillingness to draw the line here.
Poor guy, don?t you have a girlfriend? ;c)
We should find you a nice quranic wife here who will teach you ... ;c).
(!!No, I?m not free for you!!)
Otherwise, I wish you more nice dreams .... .To discuss the danger of absolutist belief is always good. But you view as absolutist soem things that are not, that?s the problem I have. Quranic Iman is not absolutist belief! Read the verses of the quran itself, how it tells us to reflect on it, to think about it, to see its signs in our own life ...... .
Well, of course you can question the trust of everyone else to everything. But please do so with more research and more indepths knowledge. You?re a clever guy, I think. You should be able to do so.
And in the discussion with mquran you were not.
My position here is not about mquran being a nice guy or not. I could comment on that as well, but this here is not about personal sympathies.
It is about observing your discussion with him for some time and realizing that you misread his points in many ways.
Mquran does not abdicate his reason to the quran. He uses his reason to understand the quran and to give this divine book its rightful place as al-furqan.I don?t need to see the connection between Brahman, Tao, Nirvana, Allah.
I know the connection. Or, to be precise
There is no connection because connections only exist between things that are separated. But the Tao is Allah is Brahman.
How do I know?
Because I used the quran as the furqan to integrate all my sources of wisdom ...... .Best wishes,
Leyla
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Hola LoteTree,
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Oh really! "He guides each individual, he speaks to each individial"? Man, you must be out of your mind roll What about the suicide bombers who blew up children for no just reason? "He" must have abandoned them, instead of guiding them and speaking to them !
You have proved to yourself the problematic nature of human language when discussing trascendence. I suggest you make study of it yourself and come to your own understanding.
What I tried to show is that you do not remain consistent. If you say that "God" is beyond "Language" and "Reason", then you cannot say anything or reason about "God" using "Language" and "Reason". Got it? You can't start saying "He" is compassionate, or that "because He is just" or that "He" guides each individual" or that "he speaks to each individual". You have described in "Language" and also used "Reason". You are not consistent with your assertion.
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
The mentor thing, that was a joke. Nah... I'm not wiser than you. Maybe I'm not wise at all. See, you consider me as "my Naive Anwar". How could I be wiser than you?
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
What religious experience? I don't practice any religious thingy. Any other way ?
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
Oh man, do you think I will believe you because you flash "Muhammad"? And besides which verses mention that he "encountered "God" in a "Meditative-Trance"? Care to give reference to them, or are you just bluffing me? I don't believe in the so-called "historical information how revelation came about". Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
You have put a lot of conditions there. Are all of them necessary?
Anwar Azim -
Hola LoteTree,
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Oh really! "He guides each individual, he speaks to each individial"? Man, you must be out of your mind roll What about the suicide bombers who blew up children for no just reason? "He" must have abandoned them, instead of guiding them and speaking to them !
Yes, each individual recieves guidance. But to hear it, you have to be at peace within yourself. Do you not understand this?
What I tried to show is that you do not remain consistent. If you say that "God" is beyond "Language" and "Reason", then you cannot say anything or reason about "God" using "Language" and "Reason". Got it? You can't start saying "He" is compassionate, or that "because He is just" or that "He" guides each individual" or that "he speaks to each individual". You have described in "Language" and also used "Reason". You are not consistent with your assertion.
We make best use of our limited human language, though it does not do justice to the reality that many have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. That is why language of scripture is very specific. It is the language of poetry. It is poetry with its power of signs and symbols that can hint at a reality that lies beyond Language and Reason.
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
The mentor thing, that was a joke. Nah... I'm not wiser than you.
You can joke too? I am surprised!! -)
Maybe I'm not wise at all.
Why may be? -)
See, you consider me as "my Naive Anwar". How could I be wiser than you?
I meant it in a affectionate way chap -)
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
What religious experience? I don't practice any religious thingy. Any other way ?
What I am saying that all spirituality comes from the human experience of "transcendence", so God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman comes from this experience. Go and study it.
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
Oh man, do you think I will believe you because you flash "Muhammad"? And besides which verses mention that he "encountered "God" in a "Meditative-Trance"? Care to give reference to them, or are you just bluffing me? I don't believe in the so-called "historical information how revelation came about". Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
That's it Anwar. I am not asking you or anyone to believe me! I want each individual to find the Truth for themselves.
So I am telling you, compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar. Go and read.
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
You have put a lot of conditions there. Are all of them necessary?
Anwar AzimYes -)
Regards,