EDUCATION OF ANWAR AZIM
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
I thought I did?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Inherent Goodness is in our Soul. We can glimpse this Inherent Goodness in ourselves when we are sincere, courageous, compassionate and dedicated and are at peace within ourself.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
Because without a common frame of reference it is hard to discuss these kinds of things.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Have you studied history of religons?
Have you studied history of religious experience in many cultures?
Have you studied what gives rise to the religious experience?
Have you stuided science?That doesn't prove that "God created us all", by appealing to all of the above.
Anwar Azim
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I thought I did?
Yes, those that commit those atrocities are indeed God's creation. But these creation have a Free Will. The Free Will that can be used for Good or Bad. And it is my view that we do bad when we don't recongnise the inherent Goodness in ourselves.Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
"inherent Goodness"? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the Mullahs that incite hatred? What is the "inherent Goodness" in the suicide bombers? Perhaps you should enlighten those people so that they recognize their "inherent Goodness".
Inherent Goodness is in our Soul. We can glimpse this Inherent Goodness in ourselves when we are sincere, courageous, compassionate and dedicated and are at peace within ourself.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
If I could "Tell" them then they would not be suicide bombers would they? This Inherent Goodness in ourselves we have to discover on our own through knowledge and understanding, courage, compassion and dedication and being at peace within ourself.
Because without a common frame of reference it is hard to discuss these kinds of things.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Neither do you. Neither does anyone else.
That is why absolute beliefs are dangerous and it is also a folly.Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
Have you studied history of religons?
Have you studied history of religious experience in many cultures?
Have you studied what gives rise to the religious experience?
Have you stuided science?That doesn't prove that "God created us all", by appealing to all of the above.
I take it you haven't ?
Well, Anwar if your understanding is that God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne, then how can I explain to you the meaning of Transcendent God?Regards,
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
I didn't say "...why do you get suicide bombers". Perhaps you should read well. Or are you getting too old? roll
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
You don't have to tell me that. But apparently there ARE people who don't think so. That's why there is suicide bombing. You should tell THEM.
Tell the "Mullahs" and the wanna-be-suicidal bombers.
If I could "Tell" them then they would not be suicide bombers would they? This Inherent Goodness in ourselves we have to discover on our own through knowledge and understanding, courage, compassion and dedication and being at peace within ourself.
Don't you want the Mullahs to stop inciting hatred? Don't you want the wanna-be-suicidal bombers not to suicide-bomb others? I thought you did. Why can't you tell them? Do you have excuses for that? At least give them the message. I am quite disappointed that all that you have stood for so long regarding the Mullahs and the suicidal bombers was just a show, appearing to be good in front of others.
In other words, you don't have any proof that "God created us all".
Neither do you. Neither does anyone else.
That is why absolute beliefs are dangerous and it is also a folly.I didn't claim to have any proof. "absolute beliefs"? Isn't your belief "God created us all" absolute? Isn't your belief that "compassion is the message of hope" absolute? Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. Getting old?
Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own.
I take it you haven't ?
Well, Anwar if your understanding is that God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne, then how can I explain to you the meaning of Transcendent God?You may take it that way if it pleases you.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination.
Anwar Azim
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Greetings Mr. LoteTree,
Ah, so you are saying the Beauty is in the "Free Will"... Since you appreciate the "Beauty" of God, why don't you appreciate the "Free Will" of the Mullahs and the suicide bombers? There is "Beauty" of God in them too, going by what you wrote.
I don't understand you. You said why do you get suicide bombers? I said how you exercise Free Will gives rise to Badness like blowing up crowded commuter trains.
I didn't say "...why do you get suicide bombers". Perhaps you should read well. Or are you getting too old? roll
I still don't understand you. Free Will in itself is Good because it allows us to gain experience. But if you use your Free Will to commit murder then that is bad. Why should any one appreciate Free Will of Mullahs commiting murders? Why there should be beauty in that? Strange questioning.
Who decides what is "Good" and what is "Bad"?
Murder is bad. Do you have to be told that it is bad?
You don't have to tell me that. But apparently there ARE people who don't think so. That's why there is suicide bombing. You should tell THEM.
But I had to tell you that or else you would not ask me this question in the first place. If there are people who don't know murder is wrong, then I suggest you take the Quran and Hadiths from their hands and make them think for themselves. Then more of them will realise murder is wrong on their own terms.
Don't you want the Mullahs to stop inciting hatred?
That is easy to do. Remove the Scripture and hadiths from their hands and educate them. Close the Mosques and Madrasas. That should do it.
Don't you want the wanna-be-suicidal bombers not to suicide-bomb others?
Yes, implement what I have written above and that should sort it.
I thought you did. Why can't you tell them?
You can tell them. I can tell them. And I have been telling people on this forum about ignorant mullahs preaching hatred in our mosques and madrasas. You can tell them as much as you like. But what I am talking about is different Anwar. I am talking about searching within to find the Goodness in yourself, to find the peace and harmony within yourself. I am telling this to people here on this forum. But to find the peace and harmony within themselves they must do this for themselves. I can't give people peace and harmony. It does not work like this.
At least give them the message.
I have done. This message is compassion. This what I am doing here. Telling people of compassion.
I am quite disappointed that all that you have stood for so long regarding the Mullahs and the suicidal bombers was just a show, appearing to be good in front of others.
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Appearing to be good in front of others? ha ha ha -) My naive Anwar, is that what you think of yourself?
I didn't claim to have any proof. "absolute beliefs"? Isn't your belief "God created us all" absolute?
Isn't your belief that "compassion is the message of hope" absolute?
God created us? Yes, don't you believe that?
Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?But I am saying to you, you can only experience this Truth of Compassion, Truth of Divinity. But you can't prove it objectively. So there is no objective proof as you say. The Universe hints that Universe has a creator but there are no objective proof of this creator.
Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. Getting old?
I am saying, to claim a particular Scripture that came through a human being as Objective Proof of God is dangerous and is a folly.
Only a "meditative-trance" can allow you to experience the Reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman. And people who have done this we tend to call them Prophets, Seer, Sages and Mystics.
Some truth can't be explained with language nor can they be put into language. The Truth of Divinity is one of them Anwar. You have to experience it to know it is there. If you can't then you have to "believe" in it or you don't.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own.
Good question. If it is delusion then all the Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators have been deluded. But I have not reached this "meditative-trance" yet nor am I enlightened yet but I would like to believe that I am on the path of englightenment, so I am not able to tell of this from experience. When you have experienced this then you will "know". Just like you know Truth of colour, though you will never able to explain this Truth to a person who is born blind.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination.
AzimOh good. I am glad. You see without you telling me I would not have known that -)
Regards,
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Hola LoteTree,
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Didn't you understand that, wise guy? All the way from the beginning. )
Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?
But it doesn't say that "God created us". ) You are just relating Science to your belief, connecting it to "God created us". So do other people who follow Scriptures.
Are they dangerous and also follies? You sound very incoherent. ) Getting old?
I am saying, to claim a particular Scripture that came through a human being as Objective Proof of God is dangerous and is a folly.
Nope. That's not what you said. Better stay consistent and coherent.
"meditative-trance"? How do you know that you are not in a hallucination or delusion? No need to appeal to authority. Stand on your own. )
Good question. If it is delusion then all the Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators have been deluded. But I have not reached this "meditative-trance" yet nor am I enlightened yet but I would like to believe that I am on the path of englightenment, so I am not able to tell of this from experience. When you have experienced this then you will "know". Just like you know Truth of colour, though you will never able to explain this Truth to a person who is born blind.
Again you appeal to some "Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators". You yourself are not able to tell from experience, and yet you are claiming that one will "know"? It's better to stand on one's own rather than believing what other's might have experienced.
I don't have any such understanding like "God is a Man with long beard who sits on a Big Throne". It's just a fig of your imagination. )
AzimOh good. I am glad. You see without you telling me I would not have known that -)
You need to ask to know. Or else you can choose not to know and keep making assumptions, never confirming them and be happy with them. By the way, have you grown out of confirming assumptions due to old age, thinking that you know it all because you have grown old?
See, I'm asking to know. ) But you have the right to respond or ignore or even think that I'm naive. )
Anwar Azim
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Hola LoteTree,
Hey when did you become my mentor that I have try not to dissappoint you? -)
Didn't you understand that, wise guy? All the way from the beginning.
Oh wise chap I am truly humbled -)
It is so encouraging to find a second truely wise mind.
Just kiddin -)Science tells us Universe had a begining so we must be created, yes?
But it doesn't say that "God created us". You are just relating Science to your belief, connecting it to "God created us". So do other people who follow Scriptures.
But you must make use of all available information to base your beliefs don't you? or do you just read and base your beliefs on one particular scripture alone or science alone? Science tell us Universe had a begining so we must be created. This is from logic and rationality. And the Seers, Sages, Prophets and Mystics tells us that there is a Transcendent reality which lies beyond Language and Reason which they have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. And simple meditation techniques can allow you to glimpse the unity of Tao, Brahman-Atman, Nirvana, God. Information is there but you must verify it yourself.
Again you appeal to some "Prophets, Seers, Sages, Mystcis and Meditators". You yourself are not able to tell from experience, and yet you are claiming that one will "know"? It's better to stand on one's own rather than believing what other's might have experienced.
I am not enlightened yet. But when I am, then for sure I will "know" and you will "know" too when you are enlightened even though you are unable to describe this "know" in the concept of language. All I can say is that meditation allow you to "see" that there is a reality that lies beyond everyday rational thought processes and this what the Prophets, seers, sages and mystics tell us also. As for myself I have not progressed in my meditation to that "know" stage yet. But I have "experienced" so far "infinite space" and "sense" of "unity" within and this is in line with what Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said, so I would like to believe that I am on the path to enlightenement...
You need to ask to know. Or else you can choose not to know and keep making assumptions, never confirming them and be happy with them. By the way, have you grown out of confirming assumptions due to old age, thinking that you know it all because you have grown old?
See, I'm asking to know. But you have the right to respond or ignore or even think that I'm naive.
OK I am ignoring you -)
Regards,
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Peace LoteTree,
But you must make use of all available information to base your beliefs don't you? or do you just read and base your beliefs on one particular scripture alone or science alone? Science tell us Universe had a begining so we must be created. This is from logic and rationality.
If "we must be created", then whoever has created us has reponsibility towards its creation, or else it is just a whimsical creator, it cannot be compassionate.
And the Seers, Sages, Prophets and Mystics tells us that there is a Transcendent reality which lies beyond Language and Reason which they have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. And simple meditation techniques can allow you to glimpse the unity of Tao, Brahman-Atman, Nirvana, God. Information is there but you must verify it yourself.
Look LoteTree. You are describing to me what this "Transcendent reality" is in some way or other. You said before that it is compassionate, which again is another little description using "Language". And you are trying to communicate with me about this "Transcendent reality" using "Language". How's that so if it is beyond "Language"? I know you think you are a wise guy (based on your comments), so tell me, what the heck are you trying to say?
So now, what is the purpose of this "Transcendent reality"? Why do human beings have to find it? After creating the human beings, why has this "Transcendent reality" gone into hiding and waiting for the human beings to be found out? Does it have any sense? It looks like it is playing hide and seek.
But I have "experienced" so far "infinite space" and "sense" of "unity" within and this is in line with what Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said, so I would like to believe that I am on the path to enlightenement...
The sense of "infinite space", "sense" of "unity" you experienced is because you were not thinking anymore while you were in a meditative trance in your own little world. And besides, who cares what "Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said" if I cannot confirm it myself !
OK I am ignoring you -)
That's just fine with me.
Anwar Azim -
Salaam Lote Tree.
Hmmm, there is this side within me that feels very sympathetic towards your position and I perfectly understand where you?re coming from.
In the end, I feel much much much more comfortable with your take on religion than with the general expressions we found in traditionalist Islam, Church Christianity and other organized clericalisms.
Actually, personally I think that it doesn?t matter too much if you or someone else believe in the divine truth of the quran or not, as long as you live by the general and most important principles taught in the quran.
I think I am quoting mquran here when I write that nowhere does the quran command us to throw a book at someone?s head.On the other hand I fear that you are runing a little bit too wild in your discussion.
Indeed, being sceptic is better than blind faith.
But when you think that me, anwar, mquran or anyone else who wants to follow the quran is teaching blind and absolutist belief, than you?re wrong.The English word
faith? orbelief? (just as its equivalent in many western european languages) has unfortunately sometimes notions of the wordassumption?. The quranic wordiman?, often translated as faith, has no such notions. Its central meaning comes somewhat close tofirm confidence?,trust?.
This confidence is not reached through a mere emotional relation.
It is the result of a deep dialogue with revelation, a dialogue that includes the intuition of the heart as much as the reason of your brain.The quran does not ask us to have blind faith. It aks us to witness and realize its truth in the observation of the universe, in the signs in our own selves, on the farest horizons, in every piece of creation.
Numerous quranic verses teach this.
We are responsible for this. We can not depend on scholars or clerics for this, we can not depend on our society on this or on the ideas of our forefathers. It is our own heart and mind that has to observe the reality of revelation and when you come to observe it, you develop the confidence, the trust, iman.
Reasoning is the path to quranic iman, not absolutist blind faith.While following the quran I kept staying a sceptical and reasoning person. However, observing the unfolding of the signs of Divinity in my life I see with every year more and more where the problems are that make me wonder. And I always came to the conclusion that it was not within the quran.
I have made my own experiences with regards to having trust in the quran. This strong faith has few to do with the inquisition, my friend.When discussing about the quran, you should aknowledge that. At least for other inidviduals.
Mquran?s position is in no way what you?re assuming. Some here on the forum, including me, know him a little bit better than you do and would never come to the conclusions that you came to.
You should read and reflect his words more carefully, I think.
Someone who goes the true path of reasoning about the quran with the standards that the quran itself sets will never, God willing, end up being comparable to a Taliban or an Inquisitor, I am sure.
In general, I think, this is as well true for someone who follows the same way with the gospels, the true core teachings of Buddha or the core of Taoism. Although I would here give a certain superiority to the quran, not only because it was kept authentic in much more ways than other scriptures.You express doubt about the absolute nature of revelation. Well, this is a tricky question. I perfectly understand your doubts.
There is no easy answer on this issue.
Indeed, human language is always a framed thing, while Allah Himself is not. Thus, can a single scripture in an earthly language really have a pure character?
I wonder about this a lot myself.However, again, I think you?re running too wild with your argument of God?s incomparability and transcendence.
If we put God?s transcendence in absolute terms we need to come to the conclusion of numerous philosophers before us (and the conclusion that also Taoism and also the quran preaches)
That the Divine is `coincidentia oppositorum? (a term coined by Nicolaus Cusanus), the coincidence of all opposits, the fullness of all possibilities.
These opposits also include the opposition between a total incomparable and nonknowledgeable Divine and a speaking, listening and selfrevealing personal God.
For the Absolute to be really absolute, to be really transcendent, it needs to include both of these sides without contradictions.
If there was only one side, the incomparable or the speaking one, the transcendent wouldn?t be fully transcendent.And, in the end, the Divine is nor Disneyland creation. It is the source of everything and not just a fluffy, lovely
dear god? who smiles like the Dalai Lama (no objection against tibetan buddhists intended .... ). Thecoincidentia oppositorum? includes eternal mercy but it also needs to include eternal justice to be, again, fully transcendent.
Allah is, as the quran says, Dhul-Jalaali wa-l Ikram.
He is the holder of both powerful majesty and free bounties.With best wishes,
Allah Hafiz,Leyla
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If "we must be created", then whoever has created us has reponsibility towards its creation, or else it is just a whimsical creator, it cannot be compassionate.
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Look LoteTree. You are describing to me what this "Transcendent reality" is in some way or other. You said before that it is compassionate, which again is another little description using "Language". And you are trying to communicate with me about this "Transcendent reality" using "Language". How's that so if it is beyond "Language"?
You have proved to yourself the problematic nature of human language when discussing trascendence. I suggest you make study of it yourself and come to your own understanding.
I know you think you are a wise guy (based on your comments), so tell me, what the heck are you trying to say?
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
So now, what is the purpose of this "Transcendent reality"? Why do human beings have to find it?
You don't "find" trascendence", you achieve "transcendence" which is the act of going beyond yourself in a meditative-trance. But what I am saying each individual is capable of having this experience just like the Prophets have done in the past. It is only through this experience that you can verify the reality many have called God, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman, Tao etc. even though you can't justify it rationaly.
Study it yourself Anwar and you too will realise this connection between God, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman, Tao.
The sense of "infinite space", "sense" of "unity" you experienced is because you were not thinking anymore while you were in a meditative trance in your own little world.
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
And besides, who cares what "Seers, Sages, Prophets, Meditators and Mystics have said" if I cannot confirm it myself !
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
OK I am ignoring you -)
That's just fine with me.
Anwar Azimsnap! -)
Regards,
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Actually, personally I think that it doesn?t matter too much if you or someone else believe in the divine truth of the quran or not, as long as you live by the general and most important principles taught in the quran.
If it doesn't matter why so much attachment to this one book?
Ayman and Edip are in the opinion (they can correct if I am wrong) that you don't need Quran at all as long as you live a righteous life. So why so much attachment to this single book? Take this book as Guidance by all means but not make Idol out of it. That is my argument. And many are in agreement with this and yet the deep attachment still continues...On the other hand I fear that you are runing a little bit too wild in your discussion.
Wild? Wild has much a sexual conotation! I don't have much experiecne of that but I can at least dream about it -)
But wild how so? Was denouncing the failure of muslim societies to tackle the ignorant mullahs preaching ideology of hatred in our mosques? Was it too wild to denounce the London tube train Bombers? I thought I was being thought-provoking in my discussion -)
But when you think that me, anwar, mquran or anyone else who wants to follow the quran is teaching blind and absolutist belief, than you?re wrong.
I said there is danger and folly in absolutist belief in the Quran because these kind of religious belief has been the cause of much suffering in the world. I don't think I said it is wrong for you to follow the teachings of the Quran.
Can we not discuss about the folly and danger of absolutist beliefs, Leyla? Or is that off-limits here?
I have made my own experiences with regards to having trust in the quran. This strong faith has few to do with the inquisition, my friend.
Having trust in the Quran is fine thing but does it mean you stop questioning this trust?
When discussing about the quran, you should aknowledge that. At least for other inidviduals.
Fair enough. But does that mean I can't question your trust in the Quran?
Mquran?s position is in no way what you?re assuming. Some here on the forum, including me, know him a little bit better than you do and would never come to the conclusions that you came to.
But I can only go by what he writes Leyla because I don't know him personally. I am sure he is a nice person as you say. But when he abdicates his reason to a book then I have to question that don't I? or is that off-limits?
Someone who goes the true path of reasoning about the quran with the standards that the quran itself sets will never, God willing, end up being comparable to a Taliban or an Inquisitor, I am sure.
No such accusation meant to him personally.
In general, I think, this is as well true for someone who follows the same way with the gospels, the true core teachings of Buddha or the core of Taoism. Although I would here give a certain superiority to the quran, not only because it was kept authentic in much more ways than other scriptures.
A buddhist will say Buddhism is far more superior as it does not involve a vengeful God who is keen on burning unbelievers in hell fire.
I would say none of the scriptures are any superior. They are all mere guide to spirituality and God.
You express doubt about the absolute nature of revelation. Well, this is a tricky question. I perfectly understand your doubts.
There is no easy answer on this issue.
Indeed, human language is always a framed thing, while Allah Himself is not. Thus, can a single scripture in an earthly language really have a pure character?
I wonder about this a lot myself.Then read and study Leyla and I am sure you too can see the connection between God, Brahman-Atman, Tao, Nirvana etc.
However, again, I think you?re running too wild with your argument of God?s incomparability and transcendence.
All I can say study it yourself.
For the Absolute to be really absolute, to be really transcendent, it needs to include both of these sides without contradictions.
If there was only one side, the incomparable or the speaking one, the transcendent wouldn?t be fully transcendent.All I am saying is "transcendence" is key to the religious experience. I am not saying anything else. The rest is upto you to study and understand.
Regards,
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Peace Lote!
First of all, as far as I know him, mquran would say something definitely quite similar to what you?ve quoted as Edip?s and Ayman`s opinion in many ways.
And this is one of the many points where, quite frankly, you didn?t understandd him right or misread him.
But I am not here to speak for him, so maybe you should wait for his reappearance.To answer your question from my own viewpoint
My attachment is one based on the experience of guidance.
That does not mean that I didn?t find guidance in other religious scriptures or in my own intutions, ecperiences etc..
I simply made the experience that the quran is the criterion (furqan) through which I can integrate all these sources of wisdom.
I have a sure confidence that everyone who will really dive into the quran will make similar experiences.
The quran does not disqualify wisdom, it integrates it.You forget one very big thing here
To believe in the quran means to believe in all its verses.
And numerous of its verses tell us that everyone who has a sincere confidence in the One Divinity, the last day and who does good and constructive deeds will have salvation, no matter what his outward religious affiliation.
So, everyone who wholeheartedly attaches himself to the quran has to aknowledge the possibility of salvation for others who don?t.
So, when we insist on the quran, we also insist on salvation for others.I was not refering to criticism of terrorism. I would agree on this criticism. But this criticism has few to do with true followers of the quran according to the standards set by the quran itself.
When I described you as `running wild? I also referred to your unwillingness to draw the line here.
Poor guy, don?t you have a girlfriend? ;c)
We should find you a nice quranic wife here who will teach you ... ;c).
(!!No, I?m not free for you!!)
Otherwise, I wish you more nice dreams .... .To discuss the danger of absolutist belief is always good. But you view as absolutist soem things that are not, that?s the problem I have. Quranic Iman is not absolutist belief! Read the verses of the quran itself, how it tells us to reflect on it, to think about it, to see its signs in our own life ...... .
Well, of course you can question the trust of everyone else to everything. But please do so with more research and more indepths knowledge. You?re a clever guy, I think. You should be able to do so.
And in the discussion with mquran you were not.
My position here is not about mquran being a nice guy or not. I could comment on that as well, but this here is not about personal sympathies.
It is about observing your discussion with him for some time and realizing that you misread his points in many ways.
Mquran does not abdicate his reason to the quran. He uses his reason to understand the quran and to give this divine book its rightful place as al-furqan.I don?t need to see the connection between Brahman, Tao, Nirvana, Allah.
I know the connection. Or, to be precise
There is no connection because connections only exist between things that are separated. But the Tao is Allah is Brahman.
How do I know?
Because I used the quran as the furqan to integrate all my sources of wisdom ...... .Best wishes,
Leyla
-
Hola LoteTree,
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Oh really! "He guides each individual, he speaks to each individial"? Man, you must be out of your mind roll What about the suicide bombers who blew up children for no just reason? "He" must have abandoned them, instead of guiding them and speaking to them !
You have proved to yourself the problematic nature of human language when discussing trascendence. I suggest you make study of it yourself and come to your own understanding.
What I tried to show is that you do not remain consistent. If you say that "God" is beyond "Language" and "Reason", then you cannot say anything or reason about "God" using "Language" and "Reason". Got it? You can't start saying "He" is compassionate, or that "because He is just" or that "He" guides each individual" or that "he speaks to each individual". You have described in "Language" and also used "Reason". You are not consistent with your assertion.
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
The mentor thing, that was a joke. Nah... I'm not wiser than you. Maybe I'm not wise at all. See, you consider me as "my Naive Anwar". How could I be wiser than you?
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
What religious experience? I don't practice any religious thingy. Any other way ?
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
Oh man, do you think I will believe you because you flash "Muhammad"? And besides which verses mention that he "encountered "God" in a "Meditative-Trance"? Care to give reference to them, or are you just bluffing me? I don't believe in the so-called "historical information how revelation came about". Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
You have put a lot of conditions there. Are all of them necessary?
Anwar Azim -
Hola LoteTree,
And "He" does doesn't "He"?
He has endowed us with Reason, intuition and imagination to make us take responsibility for our own lives. And because He is just he guides each individual, he speaks to each individual. And when we are at peace within ourselves we can "hear" his Divine Guidance.Oh really! "He guides each individual, he speaks to each individial"? Man, you must be out of your mind roll What about the suicide bombers who blew up children for no just reason? "He" must have abandoned them, instead of guiding them and speaking to them !
Yes, each individual recieves guidance. But to hear it, you have to be at peace within yourself. Do you not understand this?
What I tried to show is that you do not remain consistent. If you say that "God" is beyond "Language" and "Reason", then you cannot say anything or reason about "God" using "Language" and "Reason". Got it? You can't start saying "He" is compassionate, or that "because He is just" or that "He" guides each individual" or that "he speaks to each individual". You have described in "Language" and also used "Reason". You are not consistent with your assertion.
We make best use of our limited human language, though it does not do justice to the reality that many have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. That is why language of scripture is very specific. It is the language of poetry. It is poetry with its power of signs and symbols that can hint at a reality that lies beyond Language and Reason.
I thought you are my mentor? That means you are far wiser than me?
The mentor thing, that was a joke. Nah... I'm not wiser than you.
You can joke too? I am surprised!! -)
Maybe I'm not wise at all.
Why may be? -)
See, you consider me as "my Naive Anwar". How could I be wiser than you?
I meant it in a affectionate way chap -)
What the "heck" I am trying to tell you is that "transcendence" is the key to the religious experience and it is from this experience that reality that many have called God, Nirvana, Tao and Brahman-Atman came from. Go and study this for youself.
What religious experience? I don't practice any religious thingy. Any other way ?
What I am saying that all spirituality comes from the human experience of "transcendence", so God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman comes from this experience. Go and study it.
But do you not know that Muhammad also encountered "God" in a Meditative-Trance? Read the revelation verses and the historical information how revelation came about. Muhammad use to retreat to coolness of the cave to meditate. Compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar.
Oh man, do you think I will believe you because you flash "Muhammad"? And besides which verses mention that he "encountered "God" in a "Meditative-Trance"? Care to give reference to them, or are you just bluffing me? I don't believe in the so-called "historical information how revelation came about". Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
That's it Anwar. I am not asking you or anyone to believe me! I want each individual to find the Truth for themselves.
So I am telling you, compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar. Go and read.
But you can if you are dedicated, courageous, compassionate, sincere and you are at peace within yourself.
You have put a lot of conditions there. Are all of them necessary?
Anwar AzimYes -)
Regards,
-
Salaam!
Well, well, well ..... .
Yes, Lote, personal search and eyperiences do indeed play a part in becoming a prophet or a messenger of Allah.
The quran e.g. tells us about this in the story of Ibrahim.
Allah choses his messengers in the best way and he would probably not chose someone who does not already have a connection to Him.
And maybe the historically related stories are true, about Jesus going to the desert and Muhammad to a cave.
Maybe. I tend to trust them, though Anwar is perfectly right when he says that reliance on them is problematic.
These histories were never recorded as exactly as the quran.
Its ironic that you use this problematically historically transmitted stories to contest trust in a much more authentically transmitted source.I also cannot contest the truth in the experiences of what you call the mystics and seers. They are surely some kind of an experience of the Absolute. Muhammad Iqbal once wrote a good piece about experiences like these and how we can not judge them with normal rationality, althought they themselves are rational of some own sort.
I can not even contest your own personal experiences.And I perfectly agree that everyone who is at perfetc peace will receive petrsonal guidance by God. This is the teaching of the quran itself!
However, whatever experiences you made, you are still a human being with failures. And you think that from your experiences you can have a judgement about the relevance of the quran??
The great mystics were more sceptical about their experiences.
The Christian Catholic mystic Theresa of Avila once said `when Jesus appears to you, first of all spit into his face?.
Because she knew that not everything that appears as mystical and transcendent to a small human being is really that true!There is one big mistake in your manner of thinking
You believe in the One Divine that people call Allah, Tao, Brahman. The highest state and most transcendent of consciousness.
Fine. That?s wonderful. This faith might create for you a path to the garden.
And it is true that we simple human being can not formulate anything definit about the Absolute because we don?t have such a high consciousness.
Fine as well.
However, the Absolute has the highest consciousness of all, right?
And you doubt that this highest consciousness of all would be able to formulate a revelation and transmit it to us in framed human words that would give us the best understanding of the path to Him.
You doubt that a consciousness much much higher than you would be able to transmit objective guidelines for each and everyone of us.
You think that this can only be human poetical language.
You dare to judge, with your smaller consciousness, the abilities of the highest form or consciousness! You dare to judge from your worthfull but nevertheless small human experiences that abilities of Allah!
Where is the logic here .......... ?
Think about that a little bit please, before you give an answer on that.Youre lack of believing what we believe is a lack of believe in the abilities of the Absolute. Not a criticism of fanatism.
With best wishes,
Leyla
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Peace Lote!
And this is one of the many points where, quite frankly, you didn?t understandd him right or misread him.
But I am not here to speak for him, so maybe you should wait for his reappearance.Hello Leyla,
"Peace" with explanation mark!
I hope I have not upset you -)But yes, lets wait his reappearance -)
You forget one very big thing here
To believe in the quran means to believe in all its verses.
And numerous of its verses tell us that everyone who has a sincere confidence in the One Divinity, the last day and who does good and constructive deeds will have salvation, no matter what his outward religious affiliation.But in Buddhism there is no Last Day or notion of a theistic God, so are they all doomed? Is there no salvation for them?
It is hard to imagine all those compassionate Buddhist burning in hell simply they did not "believe" in the Last Day or a theistic God.
So, everyone who wholeheartedly attaches himself to the quran has to aknowledge the possibility of salvation for others who don?t.
That is a good view.
So, when we insist on the quran, we also insist on salvation for others.
Again a noble vision.
Poor guy, don?t you have a girlfriend? ;c)
We should find you a nice quranic wife here who will teach you ... ;c).Yes, but having just one girl friend, it is hard to go "wild" with! -)
Just kiddin -)Hey I don't need a Quranic wife, I prefer a intelligent and spiritual one.
As for quranic teaching, I have studied Quran for 2 years and memorised about 6 sifaras. But don't ask me to recite any because I can't remember a thing!(!!No, I?m not free for you!!)
Ah good! But with due respects, you are not my type anyway -)
If you are able to play one of Mozart Piano Sonata and recite Shakespear, Wordsworth, Tagore, Omar Khayyam or Khalil Gibran from memory and beat me in a game of chess and beautiful as Angelina Jolie then perhaps I will consider it.
Just joking -)
Otherwise, I wish you more nice dreams .... .
Thank you very much -)
To discuss the danger of absolutist belief is always good. But you view as absolutist soem things that are not, that?s the problem I have.
To say Quran is the only and final word of God to humanity for all eternity - is that not absolutist belief?
Or are you saying Quran is not the final word of God for all humanity for all time?
Well, of course you can question the trust of everyone else to everything. But please do so with more research and more indepths knowledge.
If someone says Quran is the absolute word of God, then my question is how can you be sure? Since Quran came through a human being so how can you be sure? That is my question. Is this a valid question or not? How much in depth knowledge do you need to ask this question Leyla?
You?re a clever guy, I think. You should be able to do so.
I am no such thing Leyla. I am a questioning guy.
Mquran does not abdicate his reason to the quran. He uses his reason to understand the quran and to give this divine book its rightful place as al-furqan.
I think you are wrong there Leyla please read what he has written. He says if his reason conflicts with the scripture then he abdicates his reason to scripture.
I don?t need to see the connection between Brahman, Tao, Nirvana, Allah.
I know the connection. Or, to be preciseIf you do then why the insistence on the superiority of Quran above all else? If you have this insight, can you not see how unifying this understanding is?
There is no connection because connections only exist between things that are separated. But the Tao is Allah is Brahman.
Yes, the connection is unity. God, Allah, Nirvana, Brahaman-Atman is the same thing. These are just labels for the same thing. These are human interepretation albeit differently of the same thing.
How do I know?
Because I used the quran as the furqan to integrate all my sources of wisdom ...... .If know then you will know scripture for what it is - A Guide.
Regards,
-
Peace again Lote
Huh, finally I realized how I can quote your post!
I hope I am doing it the right way now.
And use emoticons ...... .
I am not as dumb as I thought ....."Peace" with explanation mark!
I hope I have not upset you -)But yes, lets wait his reappearance -)
You didn?t upset me. We just simply have differing opinions.
But in Buddhism there is no Last Day or notion of a theistic God, so are they all doomed? Is there no salvation for them?
It is hard to imagine all those compassionate Buddhist burning in hell simply they did not "believe" in the Last Day or a theistic God.
First of all, when you read the quran in a plain way (and I have learned to to do so from ..... amongst some others especially mquran)
it is not the Last Day, it is the last day. Just simply, the formulation meanswhoever has trust/confidence in the last day?. Buddhists are certainly aware that all personal lifes in this world are not for eternity and that the truth (al-Haqq) is the only eternal. Being aware that this life is not for eternity and deriving from this a sense of responsibility towards the eternal is the thing here. The quran here does not saywhoever believes in a garden and a fire and God sitting on a throne?.
And the quranic Allah is much more than a theistic God. To be fully coincidentia oppositorum He needs to be the speaking theistic God. But He is also quite frankly called as-Salaam (the peace) and al-Haqq (the truth).So, everyone who wholeheartedly attaches himself to the quran has to aknowledge the possibility of salvation for others who don?t.
That is a good view.
It?s the quran?s view.
(!!No, I?m not free for you!!)
Ah good! But with due respects, you are not my type anyway -)
Huh? evil
If you are able to play one of Mozart Piano Sonata and recite Shakespear, Wordsworth, Tagore, Omar Khayyam or Khalil Gibran from memory and beat me in a game of chess and beautiful as Angelina Jolie then perhaps I will consider it.
Just joking -)
Have fun searching ....... .
To say Quran is the only and final word of God to humanity for all eternity - is that not absolutist belief?
Or are you saying Quran is not the final word of God for all humanity for all time?
The issue is too complicated to answer it with a simple
yes? orno?.
If you ask me, there is one divine word of Allaht hat reflects itself in the whole universe and has manifestes itself in many messengers in all cultures.
However, the quran is the reading that splits (faraqa) truth from falsehood when you apply it as the criterion (furqan) to understand this eternal word.
You want proof?
One might give historical reasons. The teachings of Buddha and the Tao Te King are wonderful, but they haven?t come to us as authentic as the quran. I know, there?s this hafs and warsh thing ...... but still, the authenticity of the quran is superior.
But much much more important than this historical reason is that through trusting the quran a revelation of truth came to me that proved its authenticity to me without doubt.
If this truth didn?t come to you, that?s fine with me. Then try to go on on your path with best righteousness possible and you will receive your reward.
However, for me this truth became the mark of proof. We can not discuss this. Either this truth came to you or it didn?t.Mquran does not abdicate his reason to the quran. He uses his reason to understand the quran and to give this divine book its rightful place as al-furqan.
I think you are wrong there Leyla please read what he has written. He says if his reason conflicts with the scripture then he abdicates his reason to scripture.
I know that this is a shocking and provocative statement to you. But if this truth came to you it wouldn?t seem like that.
See, if you read mquran more carefully you would have also read that before coming to this statement he went a long long path and he had to use his reason to get to the true meaning of the scripture.
My friend, you need to learn that reason is not the goal in itself. Reason is a mean, not a goal. We need it to come to a certain conclusion. But when you finally came to the conclusion then the conclusion alone suffices.
After the experience of the revelation of truth I do understand mqurans take very much.
I myself have to admit that before this experience I didn?t as well. And I have to admit that he did indeed put his ideas into quite provocative words that are easily misunderstood and maybe he should have done otherwise. But that?s his personal decision.
Sometimes being radical and provocative is needed to tingle minds.I don?t want to talk too much about others here. I already did so and I fear a little bit that maybe my stepping in in this issue was not comfortable to mquran. I just wanted to give an impression of where I think you `did not get it?. But more important to me is the basic issue of this misunderstanding, not the persons involved.
So, let?s move on from this.If you do then why the insistence on the superiority of Quran above all else? If you have this insight, can you not see how unifying this understanding is?
If you really studied the quran, can you not see how unifying its teaching is?
I ask you again, why do you think that your human experience can judge the abilities of the most superior form of consciousness?
Why do you doubt that this consciousness much higher than yours is able to reveal Himself in the most clear and straight guidelines to a receptive human?
Please read again the last part of ma last post and reflect on it.
Because I think that with the issue adressed there lies the nature of your misunderstanding.
There are always two sides, Lote. Yes, revelation is about human experience. But it is much more so about the activities of Divine Consciousness.
Before judging the quran from your meditations, start to `spit into Jesus? face?.
Allah has much more abilities than we will ever have.Best wishes,
Leyla
-
Hello LoteTree,
We make best use of our limited human language, though it does not do justice to the reality that many have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. That is why language of scripture is very specific. It is the language of poetry. It is poetry with its power of signs and symbols that can hint at a reality that lies beyond Language and Reason.
There you go again.... Now language of poetry, signs and symbols blah blah blah...
You can joke too? I am surprised!! -)
There are lots of surprises in life. )
I meant it in a affectionate way chap -)
No thanks. I do not need your affection. nope
That's it Anwar. I am not asking you or anyone to believe me! I want each individual to find the Truth for themselves.
To find the truth in some cock and bull story? Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
So I am telling you, compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar. Go and read.
I don't believe cock and bull stories. By the way, do you have any attachment with "Muhammad"? Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
Anwar Azim
-
You didn?t upset me. We just simply have differing opinions.
That's good. Glad to hear that -)
First of all, when you read the quran in a plain way (and I have learned to
to do so from ..... amongst some others especially mquran)Plain way? It is said that about 1/5 of the Quran is opaque to interpretation. Even highly educated Arab scholars find it hard to make sense of it. If the Quran is untranslateable how can its message be for all humanity? Even forum members here cannot agree on the meaning of the Quran. Thats why you have this "ping-pong" game of throwing translated verses at each other. If the Quran is untranslateable how can its message be for all humanity?
As for mquran trying to read quran by itself without the aid of dictinaries, the Forum member "Progod" seemed to have demolished the validity of such a method of reading the Quran (progod can correct if I understood him wrong). And the Forum member Zlatan is suggesting that some messages of the Quran is only specific to the Arabs of the 6th century arabia and does not apply to us (Zlatan can correct me on this). So what is the plain way of reading?
We are able to decipher the cuneiform texts on clay tablet of the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians and the Hieroglyphs of the Egyptians that llived 5000 years ago and yet we are struggling with this one Semitic Human Language which has its origins in the 5th century Aramaic and Hebrew! Therefore take the Quran and all scriptures for what they are They are mere guides in limted human language and limited human language can never do justice to the reality that it is trying to convey. A reality that lies beyond Reason and Language.
If you are able to play one of Mozart Piano Sonata and recite Shakespear, Wordsworth, Tagore, Omar Khayyam or Khalil Gibran from memory and beat me in a game of chess and beautiful as Angelina Jolie then perhaps I will consider it.
Just jokingHave fun searching ....... .
I think I found one and she is Angelina Jolie but she is involved with a
another man -( Oh the "pain of the Eternal-Love-Triangle!Ah, Love! could you and I with Him conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits--and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!Lote Tree wrote
To say Quran is the only and final word of God to humanity for all eternity- is that not absolutist belief? Or are you saying Quran is not the final
word of God for all humanity for all time? The issue is too complicated to answer it with a simpleyes? orno?. If you ask me, there is one divine word of Allaht hat reflects itself in the whole universe and has manifestes itself in many messengers in all cultures.
For others it is not complicated as you make it out. It may be simple as
"No" but perhaps it takes little courage to say that.However, the quran is the reading that splits (faraqa) truth from falsehood when you apply it as the criterion (furqan) to understand this eternal word.
Yes, for you it is perhaps but to others it might be Baghavad Gita or the
Buddha's Fire Sermon?You want proof?
One might give historical reasons. The teachings of Buddha and the Tao Te King are wonderful, but they haven?t come to us as authentic as the quran. I know, there?s this hafs and warsh thing ...... but still, the
authenticity of the quran is superior.I am not just asking for the proof of authenticity of the scripture but even there there might be some difficulties like little but significant deviations between the samarkand manuscripts and the current Quran. And also recent find of the Sana manuscripts in Yemen is also highlighting such deviations.
I am saying how can you be sure that it is the word of God? All scriptures came through human beings therefore where is the proof that it is the word of God?
There is no proof of that is there?
So I am saying to you is that you either "believe" in it that it is the word of God or you don't.I see scripture as an interpretation of the human experience of "transcendence" because it is through this experience of "transcendence" that all scripture came about. That is why this interpretation has been varied for example Buddhist will interepret as "Nirvana", Hindus will interpret it as "Brahman-Atman", The Hebrew Prophets interpreted as "God" etc.
But much much more important than this historical reason is that through
trusting the quran a revelation of truth came to me that proved its
authenticity to me without doubt.But you would not claim this "revelation of Truth" as absolute to others
would you?If this truth didn?t come to you, that?s fine with me. Then try to go on on
your path with best righteousness possible and you will receive your
reward.This is the "Truth" that has come to me Leyla God, Allah, Brahman-atman, Tao, Nirvana they have all come from the human experience of "Transcendence". It is through this that you can verify the reality that many have called "God", "Allah", "Brahman-Atman", "Tao" and "Nirvana". But perhaps you are right that I continue to walk the path of righteouness and as for reward I don't think about such thing, perhaps trying to live a righteous life is reward enough.
However, for me this truth became the mark of proof. We can not discuss
this. Either this truth came to you or it didn?t.To remain a "Free Mind" you should be able to question your most cherished beliefs.
See, if you read mquran more carefully you would have also read that before coming to this statement he went a long long path and he had to use his reason to get to the true meaning of the scripture.
Here what he has written
Ok, well lets call this point in time 'x'. X can never be known to me because I do not believe in history.
Perhaps if this long path had involved looking at history he would have known that our Idea of God evolved from it's primitive pagan beginings about 14,000 years ago to a God of transcendence.
My friend, you need to learn that reason is not the goal in itself. Reason
is a mean, not a goal. We need it to come to a certain conclusion. But when you finally came to the conclusion then the conclusion alone suffices.I say this is where you might be going wrong Leyla. When we were a child we have "concluded" or (led to conclude) that God is a benovolent father-Figure with long beard who sits on a throne. But as we grow older and acquire knowledge this kind of understanding is no longer acceptable to us. The more we develop as individuals so does our idea and understanding of God develops. This is a natural process. As human beings we have gone from the Idea of a Tribal God with his chosen people to a God of trascendence who embraces everything. But "Reality" of God is the same but it is our understanding and interpretation have changed throughtout history. So it might not be wise to "conclude" and set it in concrete. Our understanding of God can only be provisional. We can conclude only to the limits of our abilities and knowledge therefore our minds must remain open and free to develop.
I myself have to admit that before this experience I didn?t as well. And I
have to admit that he did indeed put his ideas into quite provocative words that are easily misunderstood and maybe he should have done otherwise. But that?s his personal decision.Sometimes being radical and provocative is needed to tingle minds.
Well, he has not "tingled" my mind Leyla -)
Perhaps we are "tingled" by different things. But anyway lets move on from this.I just wanted to give an impression of where I think you `did not get it?.
OK.
If you really studied the quran, can you not see how unifying its teaching
is?But I am saying this is the message of all scriptures. Lets unite on this.
I ask you again, why do you think that your human experience can judge the abilities of the most superior form of consciousness?
I think you did not get it Leyla. I said it is the human experience of "transcendence" that is the key to spirituality. It is from this experience that Allah, God, Nirvana, Tao, Brahman-Atman came from. It is through this kind of experience that you can verify the reality "God", "Allah", "Nirvana", "Tao", "Brahman-Atman" even though there is no objective proof of this reality. These realities are experienced within, they are not some external events out there in the physical world. "Revelation" is an event that happens in each individual soul.
I have previously argued that scripture is an interpretation of the Divine Reality with the limited capabilities of human language. All religions assert that God is beyond Reason and Language. So how do you describe with words something that is beyond language and reason? How do you describe the truth of colour to someone who is born blind? or truth of music to someone who is born deaf? You can't, not with words. They have to experience this truth for themselves to "know" that it exists. Some truths, have to be experienced and can't be described with words. The Truth of Divinity is one of them. But this has not stopped human beings in trying to describe this ineffable experience with words. Scripture therefore are the attempts to describe this ineffable experience of "God" in human language. Therefore scripture is an "interpretation" of a reality that is beyond words and reason.
Why do you doubt that this consciousness much higher than yours is able to reveal Himself in the most clear and straight guidelines to a receptive
human?Thats it Leyla I don't doubt this. "Transcendence" is the way in which the
encounter between "God" and Man occurs. But my argument to you is that every individual has the ability of meeting his\her "God" in this way. We can all make our minds "receptive" to God's message. And it is through dedication, courage, compassion and sincerety that we make our minds receptive to divine message and when we are at peace within ourselves we can then "hear" this divine message.Before judging the quran from your meditations, start to `spit into Jesus?
face?.I am not judging Quran from my meditations. But I am saying all scriptures came from the meditative practices and it is through meditative practices that gives rise to the human experience of "transcendence". You can check this for yourself. Study it.
I see Quran for what it is. I see all scriptures for what they are They are mere Guides. And a Guide is like little canoe that you use to cross the river to the other shore. But once you have passed on to the other shore then it is pointless carrying this canoe around on your back.
"spit into jesus face" - I am not familiar with that expression.
Can you elaborate?Allah has much more abilities than we will ever have.
See my first post regarding this.
Regards,
- is that not absolutist belief? Or are you saying Quran is not the final
-
We make best use of our limited human language, though it does not do justice to the reality that many have called God, Tao, Nirvana, Brahman-Atman. That is why language of scripture is very specific. It is the language of poetry. It is poetry with its power of signs and symbols that can hint at a reality that lies beyond Language and Reason.
There you go again.... Now language of poetry, signs and symbols blah blah blah...
Do you know a man who can say too many blah's in a sentence? He was Blahbelous -)
You can joke too? I am surprised!! -)
There are lots of surprises in life. )
You write in Clich? too? Be original man -)
I meant it in a affectionate way chap -)
No thanks. I do not need your affection. nope
It's ok I still love you -)
So I am telling you, compare Muhammad experiences with that of the seers, sages, prophets and mystics and you will see the experience is similiar. Go and read.
I don't believe cock and bull stories. By the way, do you have any attachment with "Muhammad"? Are you a follower of "Muhammad"?
I am no follower of any one man. I am a guide on to myself -)
Cheers,Regards,
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Salaam, peace, Lote, all readers.
I won?t have good computer access for some time from this evening on and so I won?t be able, unfortunately, to go on with this discussion.
So, if I should disappear for some time, don?t take this personally.
Also, I am in a hurry now so let me only address some few few basic points that I think of as important.
No time to elaborate much further.First of all, Lote Tree, if your would really read the posts of your discussions partners in detail and understand their thoughts in its context you would be familiar with teh phrase `spit into jesus? face?.
I have used that phrase in our discussion before, just some days before, and I explained where it comes from and what it means!!!!!! wink
I think that this is also the reason of the problems you have with mquran?s position
As I said, you should read all parts of an argument, not just excerpts from it. Understand thoughts in their meant frame!
You just need to read carefully!First of all, historical discussions are a difficult thing and mquran is right with distrusting history. Written history is a hadeeth that can?t be verified in a direct way. And written history is always written by the influential who have their own policies as well. And, furthermore, most written history is based on assumptions from discoveries or on oral knowledge.
Written history is revised every now and then.
My main argument for the quran is not a historical one. It is the one of proof within my life.
The Sana?a manuscripts have said nothing. They were just some old unpunctuated manuscripts that a certain Luxenberg has read in a certain way. Teh found manuscripts were read by Luxenberg in his way, but they can also easily be read in the usual way Other (non-muslim) remarkable scientists of semitism and orientalism have refutted his claims.
And, furthermore, just because these old manuscripts were unpunctuated it doesn?t mean that the oldest manuscripts were not punctuated as well. Punctuation was known from documents before that time already. One shouldn?t base claims on the foundability of a certain manuscript.The problematics of history are also quite true for what you claim as the development of the concept of God. I am sorry to say this but this idea of a primitive concept evolving into elaborate forms is in itself primitive.
I definitely don?t want to brag but maybe I should mention that I am a university student of comparative religious sciences and cultural anthropology. These sciences these days strongly refute any evolutionary notion in religion. There is no proof for this.
Actually, so called tribal societies have a wide range of religious ideas. Some have concepts very close to the quran, others might be what you would call animistic. There is no development here.
Some people even cling to a theory (although this was and is also debated) that if there was a development then a universalist monotheism was primordial and not somerpimitive concepts?. The whole evolutionary idea of religious development was a fruit of 19th century racist Europe. One wanted to proof that there was an evolution in which so called high civilizations (including the self defined white empires) had a higher notion of religion than e.g.black and red barbars? in Africa and otheruncivilized?parts of the world thatneeded to be colonialized?.
Modern social science rejects these positions in all ways.Well, you gave a good example with the child reasoning. But see that?s exactly the problem with
your reason?. Reason is never objective. As a child you have another reason then as a teenager. A person in a certain culture has a reason different from a person from another culture. The Boas? theory ofcultural relativism? has elaborated on this.
People from differentsocial classes?have differing ways of reasoning. None is better or worse, don?t mistake me. In their relevant frame they are allreasonable?.
You don?t want to see reason as a means but as a goal? Great.
Whose reason?
Is you?rs superior? Mine?
You don?t want us to turn the book into an idol?
That?s a true and relevant objection.
But don?t turn what you perceive in your own little frame as reason into an idol as well.Due respect to Progod and Zlatan. They have done a good job and ther is much to learn from them.
But there is also much to criticise.
E.g. Progod comes from a position that tries to translate one language directly into another. However, this is impossible, imho.
Languages are in itself a self supporting system. E.g. an example that just came to me in a fruitful discussion I had today
You can not directly translate the English wordargument?into German. You need two words for this. One possibility would be the wordArgument?, the other the wordStreit?. Both translate the wordargument? but within German they have different meanings and are in no way identical!
See what I mean?
So, for me, Progod hasn?t demolished anything.
Mquran has presented a way to see quranic Arabic as a selfsupporting system and that?s a (yes, I will use that famed word) reasonable approach, much more reasonable than trying to translate every quranic word with a full English equivalent.If that?s not your path, ok. As I said, go on your path. As long as you belief in the Absolute, in the last day and try to be a good human, that?s wonderful for me.
And I will do the same on my path.
So, we have aperfect agreement. )
As brother Olusanya has said it beautifully some days ago, in the end our actions will count and not endless babbling.By the way, that Angelina Jolie is happy with another man is only a hadeeth that I haven?t been able to verify for myself. Have you?
Maybe it is not a sahih hadeeth and you still have a chance.
So, try and go on ..... . winkBest wishes,
Allah Hafiz,Leyla