Is reincarnation possible in reality ?
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Peace be upon you Ichephren,
-Actually, the reincarnation theory that I am familar with states that the phenomenon happens unti all souls have reached nirvana. There is no set end point. The end point is when everyone has reached Nirvana, so it is not unfair.
Yes, Nirvana (Not- Moving), which is to say PEACE, which is to say ENERGY AT REST. In our world, everything vibrates, nothing is at rest, so our GREATEST URGE is to reclaim the PEACE, which is to reunite with the God, the STILLNESS from which we came and which we are returning to.
"The greeting therin is PEACE!"
But this does pose the question of where new souls come from. Is there a "new soul factory" that we are not aware of?
Where do new cells of your body come from? Cells are entities of thier own, they require food, reproduction, waste matter, etc.
The PARADIGM that has helped me the most is that this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God. Lets say you thought of 10 characters in your mind, and wrote a life story for all of them in your mind, and envisioned these lives in your mind. Is there a point when your mind cannot stop creating "new characters"? Even if these characters increased in number in our minds, is there some form of unfairness going on?
-To Idolfree- there would be a decrease in the earth's population if there were a fixed number of souls. Then as time goes by and more souls reach Nirvana, there would be less and less people on earth. But this problem could also be fixed by saying that there are always new souls coming to earth. Do correct me if I am wrong on this, but that is how I thought of it.
Yes, but take it off the physical plane and think of it mentally. Let me know if this method changes your thinking like it did mine.
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peace all
Interesting questions and thoughts about reincarnation.
Here's something that might be worth considering from quantum mechanics.
In experiments with electrons passing through two slits and projected onto a screen, the outcome is strange and cannot be explained on a "classical" level. Well, come to think of it...it can't be fully explained on any level, because no one really understands exactly what's going on. The electrons end up where they aren't supposed to and form patterns on the screen that aren't expected.
Indeed, one electron aimed at a screen, with a choice of two slits to pass through on its way to the screen, will create a pattern that looks like two electrons went through the slits--one electron through each slit. However, there was really only one electron!
To explain the observation of the electron's behavior, a physicist named Feynman suggested the electron followed every possible available path from the source to the screen. The end result is the sum (or 'history') of all those paths. Which is how you get one electron doing something that makes it look as if it two electrons were present.
So...perhaps our souls or selves behave in a way similar to electrons?
shock
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Peace Tanveer,
Just to be clear, I am not convinced of the possibility of reincarnation, nor do I feel it is inconceivable - somewhere in the middle thus far...
You stated
Firstly, if reincarnation is true, the population of Earth should DECREASE and not increase with time !! think about it !!
This would be true only if there were a set number of people born from the beginning. I see no reason to believe this to be the case.
Secondly, If one says that population is increasing because of NEW souls then it is not fair, because the older souls had more chances and more cycles to achieve perfection; what is the fault of the newer souls for having fewer chances or cycles ?
Fewer cycles until what? I presume you're referencing the day of judgement. Perhaps the day of judgement does not occur until all souls have completed their cycle. Just a thought.
Thirdly, if reincarnation is true, then ALL of us should have a perfect memory of our past lives in order to be able to improve and correct our mistakes. How can one improve through blind trial and error, without knowledge of one's previous mistakes ? That makes it completely unfair and illogical.
The concept, as I understand it, is not to improve upon past performance, but to live through all levels of the human experience. It is not until one dies that he/she can evaluate the accumulated experiences thus far, at which point he/she chooses which experience is next. Accordingly, the individual chooses NOT to remember the previous lives so that the next experience will not be tainted.
Quite a neat concept if you ask me. But I again, I've not seen enough evidence for or against. Therefore, I'll keep the possibility open.
Peace,
Tay -
Thirdly, if reincarnation is true, then ALL of us should have a perfect memory of our past lives in order to be able to improve and correct our mistakes.
We are Souls having a human expience not Humans having a soulful experience. If is the Soul that remembers each human experience and learns from it not Humans who remember each previous human expience.
Humans learn from the earthly experience of the moment where as Souls Learn from all the human experiences..
How can one improve through blind trial and error, without knowledge of one's previous mistakes ?
Humans do learn from previous mistakes within its lifetime where as Souls learn from the mistakes over ALL human experiences
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Peace all,
Thank you all brothers and sisters for thought provoking discussions, comments, and analysis.
THE LOGICAL PARADOX
The problem is that if reincarnation theory is true, it creates a logical paradox from which there is no way out. Let me elaborate.
There are two possibilities
- There is a fixed number of souls and no new souls.
In that case the total population of Earth should decrease over time as souls reach nirvana/perfection and graduate out of the reincarnation cycle. However reality is that the total population is increasing with time. That can mean only two things
a. There is no reincarnation
b. There are new souls being manufactured/created.The latter creates a problem. Souls are form of energy and have always existed, especially if one believes that all souls are part of The God. If there are new souls being created, where are they coming from? New soul means it did not exist before a point in time and space, so where and how did a NEW ENERGY come into existence, and if it did come into existence then it cannot be part of The God. The total sum energy has always beeen the same and does not increase or decrease. The total number of souls therefore is constant and does not increase or decrease, the only logical conclusion being that all souls have always existed and there are NO NEW SOULS, as that would imply creation of NEW ENERGY.
Now suppose for argument sake one assumes that new souls are being created. That brings us to the second possibility
- New souls are being created, and that accounts for the increase in population.
If that is true that creates another problem. No matter how long or how many cycles it takes for a soul to achieve nirvana, the new soul that was created at a point in time and space AFTER the older soul will have lesser number of cycles or lesser time than the older soul to achieve nirvana. That gives the older soul an UNFAIR advantage over the newer soul of having greater TOTAL time/cycles. Both souls may have an infinite time forwards to achieve nirvana but still the older soul will have MORE TOTAL time/cycles and that is UNFAIR. The God is NOT UNFAIR.
In the Qur'aan, The God talks about everyone being gathered together on the Last Day, and that implies a fixed time in future marking the end point of time available to achieve nirvana. Again, that gives the older soul more time/cycles than the newer soul, which is UNFAIR.
All the following ayat imply a fixed point in time and space in future, marking the end point of available time/cycles to achieve nirvana
310 "Our Lord, You will gather the people for a Day in which there is no doubt; God does not break His appointment."
487 God, there is no god but He. He will gather you for the Day of Resurrection in which there is no doubt. Who is more truthful in saying than God?
4172 The Messiah is not too proud to be a servant to God, nor are the Angels who are close to Him. Whoever is too proud from His service, and is arrogant, then He will gather them all towards Him TOGETHER.
1046 And the Day We gather them, it will be as if they have slept for only an hour of a day.
6410 The Day when He will gather you, the Day of Gathering.So as you can see, if reincarnation is true it creates a logical paradox and a logical trap/web from which there is no way out.
NO MEMORY OF PAST LIVES
This leads me to the next point, from which Tay invented a novel way to wiggle out, but logically that does not pan out.
The concept, as I understand it, is not to improve upon past performance, but to live through all levels of the human experience. It is not until one dies that he/she can evaluate the accumulated experiences thus far, at which point he/she chooses which experience is next. Accordingly, the individual chooses NOT to remember the previous lives so that the next experience will not be tainted.
Quite a neat concept if you ask me. But I again, I've not seen enough evidence for or against. Therefore, I'll keep the possibility open.
Let us create the scenario. A soul chooses a certain experience for the next cycle and starts the next life, choosing not to remember the previous life. This soul makes mistakes during that particular experience/situation and dies. Then the soul evaluates that experience and the mistakes and chooses the same or similar experience again so it can correct the mistakes in that particular form of experience and starts the next life, again choosing not to remember the previous life. The soul does not remember the previous life, and even though it chose a similar experience to correct its mistakes in the previous life, how can that soul correct its mistakes when it does not remember what mistakes it made previously in the similar experience/situation, while actually living that experience/situation in the new life ? That is completely illogical.
ALWAYS ANOTHER CHANCE ? !!
There is yet another problem reincarnation theory creates, which ends up recreating the problem it purports to resolve. It makes one complacent and lazy, by giving one a false sense of security that one can commit any mistake one wants and one will ALWAYS HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE to attain perfection/nirvana. There is not really any incentive to correct ones mistakes, because of the existence of ANOTHER CHANCE in future. So it is OK to mess up, you will ALWAYS HAVE ANOTHER CHANCE. Remarkable innovation by Satan, to lull us into false sense of security and complacence !!
Brother Saladin,
there is a verse in the koran that says something like "God gives you life ,death and recreates u in forms that u know not ." .
i cant remember the verse num,ber .
can this verse be refering to reincarnation ?The ayaat are as follows
5664 We have predetermined death for you. Nothing can stop Us,
5665 From transforming your forms, and establishing you in what you do not know.
5666 You have come to know about the first creation. If only you would remember.All these ayaat imply is that our forms will be transformed after death. This obviously is about resurrection on the Last Day and not reincarnation. The God also talks about the first creation, but that existence was not on Earth. Only one existence on Earth is indicated in Qur'aan.
First existence Jannah
Second existence Earth
Third existence Jannah/Jahannam.Reincarnation theory on the other hand implies MULTIPLE/INFINITE existences on EARTH.
Sister Sytalls,
To explain the observation of the electron's behavior, a physicist named Feynman suggested the electron followed every possible available path from the source to the screen. The end result is the sum (or 'history') of all those paths. Which is how you get one electron doing something that makes it look as if it two electrons were present.
So...perhaps our souls or selves behave in a way similar to electrons?
Your analogy would be true only if a soul had multiple existences at the SAME TIME or PARALLEL existences. Reincarnation theory on the other hand implies existences of a soul in DIFFERENT TIMES, linearly following each other.
Brother Kyle,
The PARADIGM that has helped me the most is that this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God. Lets say you thought of 10 characters in your mind, and wrote a life story for all of them in your mind, and envisioned these lives in your mind. Is there a point when your mind cannot stop creating "new characters"? Even if these characters increased in number in our minds, is there some form of unfairness going on?
A NEW SOUL can have a million MENTAL characters, still it has less TOTAL time to achieve nirvana than an OLDER SOUL which makes it UNFAIR.
I think an error in the idea of "increase" or "decrease" of what is being referred to as "souls"(nafs) is that there is really only ONE "soul"(NAFS) which is the God's "Soul".
The God has created the illusion that there are seperated "souls" for the sake of experience, which the created beings are His vessel.
Even if there is an illusion of separated souls, still the total sum number of souls is constant, and there are no NEW souls being created.
The God says that the next life will last as long as the skies and earth endure, what does that mean?
11109 As for those who are fortunate, they will be in Paradise; in it they will abide as long as the heavens and Earth exist, except for what your Lord wishes, a giving without end.
The words "without end" clearly imply eternal, non-ending.
Brother Ichephren,
Actually, the reincarnation theory that I am familar with states that the phenomenon happens unti all souls have reached nirvana. There is no set end point. The end point is when everyone has reached Nirvana, so it is not unfair.
It does not matter if there is no set end point. The future available time could be infinite, but the fact still remains that the older soul has more TOTAL time/cycles than the newer soul, which makes it unfair. The Qur'aan however indicates a fixed end point for all souls (please see discussion above).
But this does pose the question of where new souls come from. Is there a "new soul factory" that we are not aware of?
Agreed, please see my discussion at the beginning of this post.
Best regards,
Tanveer
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We are Souls having a human expience not Humans having a soulful experience. If is the Soul that remembers each human experience and learns from it not Humans who remember each previous human expience.
Humans learn from the earthly experience of the moment where as Souls Learn from all the human experiences..
Souls and bodies do not have separate existence in the earthly life. At that time of coexistence, the soul does not remember previous mistakes, so your argument is wrong.
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Peace tanveermd,
Very interesting and indepth posts... I never got the impression from the reading that reincarnation in this temporal plane is possible, every soul even though they are born in different times/places has an equal opportunity...imo thats enough...
Nadia
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Souls and bodies do not have separate existence in the earthly life.
The soul lives on, the body doesnt
At that time of coexistence, the soul does not remember previous mistakes
If you can't remember, how do you know this ?. Do you have complete recall of your subconscious mind ?..... The subconscious is where such imformation would be, not the conscious mind...
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Peace Nadia,
every soul even though they are born in different times/places has an equal opportunity...imo thats enough...
Agreed.
Just to add to that, The God never burdens a soul more than it can bear. Different souls may have different strengths and breaking points. IMO The God knows all the souls, and carefully designs the tests and experiences/situations faced by each soul in such a manner as to give it a FAIR opportunity to prove and distinguish itself, without burdening it more than it can bear.
6154 .......We do not burden a soul except by what it can bear........
Regards,
Tanveer
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Peace albion,
The soul lives on, the body doesn?t
Obviously you do not read my post carefully. I was talking about coexistence of soul and body in THE EARTHLY LIFE.
If you can't remember, how do you know this ?. Do you have complete recall of your subconscious mind ?..... The subconscious is where such imformation would be, not the conscious mind...
For reincarnation to be true requires perfect memory of past lives, and complete recall of subconscious AND conscious mind IN THE EARTHLY EXISTENCE, so that the soul can learn from it and correct its previous mistakes WHILE IN EARTHLY EXISTENCE, otherwise it is just an exercise in futility, like a blind person trying to find the way.
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Peace tanveermd,
Exactly, i would also like to add this verse that may make things clearer
2399
Until when death overtakes one of them, he says Send me back, my Lord, send me back;23100
Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.Nadia
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Peace Nadia,
Thank you for the signs. That demolishes reincarnation completely !!
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"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall
cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life,
and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." 228 -
Peace Tanveer,
I don't think you've grasped the concept of reincarnation. This, by no means, is derogatory, but simply an observation based on your following comments
Then the soul evaluates that experience and the mistakes and chooses the same or similar experience again so it can correct the mistakes in that particular form of experience and starts the next life
As I stated earlier, it is not about correcting mistakes or improving. It is about living the entire gamut of the human experience, not reliving the same life and trying to be better at it. Living in America in the middle class as a healthy male adult, I have no idea what it is like to be handicapped in a thrid world nation. I have no idea what it is like to grow up in poverty. I have no idea what it is like to grow up wealthy. I have no idea what it is like to be in a war. The list goes on and on. With each life, the soul develops - not improve. That's the key difference. And part of that development is living with the burdens of that particular life and striving to improve within that particular life, against that set of adversities.
So, you see, it's not that I invented a way to wiggle out of your hopeful explanation, just that I'm explaining to you what reincarnation theory is all about. There's plenty of info available all over the web.
It is what it is, and I neither endorse it nor deny it. The truth will come with patience, Inshallah.
Just to quickly address your comment that "the older soul has more time/cycles than the newer soul, which is UNFAIR."
How do you know that the population will not decrease as the day of judgement nears? Would this not explain away the "logical trap"? Perhaps the day of judgement is 10 million years down the road. Perhaps at that time there will only be a few million people left on Earth, finishing up their final cycles, while the rest of us wait in peace. Is this impossible?
Only God knows for sure.
Peace,
Tay -
Peace Kyle,
The PARADIGM that has helped me the most is that this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God. Lets say you thought of 10 characters in your mind, and wrote a life story for all of them in your mind, and envisioned these lives in your mind. Is there a point when your mind cannot stop creating "new characters"? Even if these characters increased in number in our minds, is there some form of unfairness going on?
But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
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Peace be upon you all,
2399
Until when death overtakes one of them, he says Send me back, my Lord, send me back;23100
Haply I may do good in that which I have left. By no means! it is a (mere) word that he speaks; and before them is a barrier until the day they are raised.The person begging wishes to go back to thier very same life, but its too late, the game is reset at the beginning, when they are "raised". (just another possible look at the verses)
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But this "PARADIGM" that "this world is a MENTAL CREATION of the God" has a very negative implication that the God is a psychopath, very sick mentally, I should say.
Anwar Azim
Peace Bro,
Why the judgement? The only basis you have for that comment are your perceptions...which, as a human, are limited to say the least.
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Peace Tanveemd
Firstly, if reincarnation is true, the population of Earth should DECREASE and not increase with time !! think about it !!
That is logical if you hold that earth is the only plane of experience, those who are on earth now are experiencing life through the 3d.
Those who have progressed/regressed can be said to be on different planes, no?
Secondly, If one says that population is increasing because of NEW souls then it is not fair, because the older souls had more chances and more cycles to achieve perfection; what is the fault of the newer souls for having fewer chances or cycles ?
If you hold that earth is the only layer of experience then that is true , however if there are other planes of experience besides earth then the argument that all souls were created at once is plausible.
Thirdly, if reincarnation is true, then ALL of us should have a perfect memory of our past lives in order to be able to improve and correct our mistakes.
I disagree, I have trouble remebering perfectly an entire day as I'm sure most of us do, that is illogical to say that we must have a perfect memory of an existence before this. How are we benifited to know that we were a king or a peasent? I complete my greatest works of art when I am not weighed down by past expectations.
Also, I don't believe we should call it a past life, as we only have one life; our own. Its just different cloaks.
How can one improve through blind trial and error, without knowledge of one's previous mistakes ? That makes it completely unfair and illogical.
Look at your self right now, you are the sum total of what you were. Everything around you has meaning, it is your choice to read the 'signs.' Our physical is a reflection of our inner, all problems around us have their origins within us.
It is only blind to those who turn from their surroundings. It is only unfair to those who choose to point their finger at anyone but the source, their self.
I agree with this concept, and that demolishes the reincarnation theory also.
That does not demolish the reincarnation theory, it just hampers the notion that you can remeber a past life.
peace.