is lying ever ok?
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Salaams PRIEST_BOKMEI,
Sorry for this belated reply, friend. My computer had totally crashed and had to doll-up in its pre-installed factory condition. Anyhow
PEACE, DANISH,
Peace PRIEST_BOKMEI,
Is lying permissable as a part of strategy in war?
That woud be devastating. I believe, lying can be justified under specific umbrella and within reason. What say you, my friend?
I say you are correct, good brother. The two cardinal strategies of war, are deception and surprise. Btw, is justified and permissable equivalent concepts/terms in regard to war and lying?
I understand permissible to mean something that is allowable by/within rules, standards, instructions, etc. At times, permission can be granted or denied in order to amend or preserve a rule in a given situation (case sensitive). Whereas, justified is something that is demonstrated/declared by/within reason, validation, understanding, etc., with or without a governing rule/standard. By such validation/reason, though not necessarily, a standard or rule is set, modified and/or implemented.
In my understanding, the strategies of war are never binding/permanent rules but contribute to overall game-plans and conducts of operations. Such strategies are designed and intended to meet specific goals and changeable with times/situations and are susceptible to default. Thus, I believe the strategies of war are weighed-in to justify self-defense/victory/survival rather than permissible as an outward/written mandatory rule.
Example 1 It is not permitted to intentionally kill innocent beings but is justified in a warlike situation where innocent beings become subjected.
Example 2 There?s a surplus army reserve camp close by where I live, which surrounds commercial and residential dwellings. If a bomb was permitted and aimed at the camp, it may very well have destructive/catastrophic bearings on people and property surrounding the camp, hence justified.All-in-all, hope I conveyed my drift through. Perhaps you can feed in your thoughts, friend.
Take care and GOD bless.
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PEACE, DANISH,
In my understanding, the strategies of war are never binding/permanent rules but contribute to overall game-plans and conducts of operations. Such strategies are designed and intended to meet specific goals and changeable with times/situations and are susceptible to default. Thus, I believe the strategies of war are weighed-in to justify self-defense/victory/survival rather than permissible as an outward/written mandatory rule.
Example 1 It is not permitted to intentionally kill innocent beings but is justified in a warlike situation where innocent beings become subjected.
Example 2 There?s a surplus army reserve camp close by where I live, which surrounds commercial and residential dwellings. If a bomb was permitted and aimed at the camp, it may very well have destructive/catastrophic bearings on people and property surrounding the camp, hence justified.Although I have not yet come to a complete understanding on this issue, what you've proferred seems accurate. Also, I would like your input...pro or con, on the following threads
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=52362#52362
http//www.free-minds.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4013
See you soon.
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Salam,
I dont find any verses in the Quran which prohibit us to lie, neither would it be logical. What we cannot do is lie to the DISadvantage of others. The Quran strictly prohibits bearing false witness even if it be against his own relatives, thats why in courts we cannot lie, for this causes other peoples' rights to be violated in one way or another and leads to injustice but that doesnt mean lying in general is prohibited. Just a few examples. I failed my exams but dont wanna hurt my parents feelings so i lie to them saying that i passed while in the mean time make arrangements for other things which would ultimately override my poor situation. I lie to the robbers who want to loot my family. An examples from the Quran would be the case where Joseph in order to protect him from his brothers and keep him by himself hides a cup in his bag so that he gets accused of robbery and then he as king could order him to be his slave, thus keeping him near himself. That wasnt wrong at all. GOD Bless! -
Well lying and deceit is okay if it will abound to the glory of God.
But that is according to St Paul a.k.a Saul Of Tarsus.. which the Xtians believed to be writting 'lies' by inspiration from the "Holy Spirit"..Rom 37
For if the truth of God by my lie abounded to His glory, why am I still also judged as a sinner?Anyone can give an answer for St. Paul's question?
Lying is okay as it will bring out the 'truth of God'... roll -
Well lying and deceit is okay if it will abound to the glory of God.
But that is according to St Paul a.k.a Saul Of Tarsus.. which the Xtians believed to be writting 'lies' by inspiration from the "Holy Spirit".. )Rom 37
For if the truth of God by my lie abounded to His glory, why am I still also judged as a sinner?Anyone can give an answer for St. Paul's question?
Lying is okay as it will bring out the 'truth of God'... rollKhi- Salam. Oh yes i almost forgot. Lying about GOD and/or his message/messengers is also strictly prohibited. The rest i explained. GOD Bless!
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SaLaM yfn123
I will put the verse in context
And from the people are those who say "We believe in God and in the last day," but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.
I think, we have all come across people like that.
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Peace Jaxal,
And from the people are those who say "We believe in God and in the last day," but they are not believers.
They seek to deceive God and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves without noticing.
In their minds there is a disease. Consequently, GOD augments their disease. They have incurred a painful retribution for their lying.
I think, we have all come across people like that.
Thanks. So, it's about "We believe in God and in the last day". How about petty lies, like, telling the other person over the phone (who wants talk with your father) that your father is not available right now to talk, although your father is right in front of you, instructing you to say that he is not available (because he doesn't want to talk with the guy who is calling)?
Disclaimer the "you" is not you (Jaxal) in particular.
Anwar Azim
"When one lies, one knows that he is lying." -
Peace Jaxal,
SaLaM yfn123
A lie is a lie brother.Yes, no disagreements about that. The retribution is painful for lying about "We believe in God and in the last day", but what is the retribution for the petty lie mentioned earlier? What is the cost of such a petty lie?
Anwar Azim
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SaLaM yfn123
Actually, you know how God says HE wont hold us to the mere utterence of an oath. But to the actual intention. So maybe God will look at the intention behind the lie? just a concept. What do u think?
Khi- Salam. Yep, exactly my point. Thats why i said that lying about GOD and His Message/Messengers and lying to the disadvantage of others is forbidden. However to not hurt others feelings or more so to protect others we may lie as ive mentioned the instant of Joseph with his brother in Quran. GOD Bless!
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Peace,
Respect.Prophet/messenger Abraham lied.
2163 He said It was the biggest one of them here who did it, so ask them, if they do speak!
But it was justified because he was making a point.
Then again I have only very little knowledge, God knows Best.Peace.
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The God knows what is in the hearts.
I think brother Wakas nailed it five years ago on page 2.
Anyone with imagination can think of situations where honesty will be destructive and a lie can do a world of good. Much more common are situations where silence is better than open honesty - this may not be lying strictly speaking, but it's really many shades of grey. Protecting others through silence seems to me the very essence of avoiding backbiting, which the Qur'an forbids in no uncertain terms.That said, I believe firmly in complete honesty whenever at all possible. I think all believers try to live in such a way that we have nothing to hide from anyone.